From: Team Rocket Elite | #048 No guard doesn't even work that way. I'm 90% sure you can still miss/be missed by instant death attacks like Sheer Cold while in No Guard.
Nope. Those attacks always hit as long as they are used by or targeted towards a Pokemon with No Guard.
Still miss against a higher leveled opponent though IIRC. And they have a weird interaction with stuff like Protect (where apparently the formula is (100 - X)% with X being the usual accuracy of the attack, which means lower accuracy attacks are more likely to work). Given the ludicrously literal and absurd approach to No Guard that's being used here, Machamp's low speed means Bullet Punch is the best bet, and that's going to have 0 accuracy due to how weird No Guard is when put against shield like tactics. Also, fighting types are weak to psychic attacks. This means their brain is a weakness. That means a bullet to the brain should win, which Ocelot can deliver. This is significantly less implausible than "No Guard warps reality so attacks hit from fifty million miles away", so it's pretty safe to go with.
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We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny
asking tre if he's sure about pokemon knowledge is like asking scott hall if he wants another drink.
and Machamp i gotta say here. honestly doubt a bullet can even put him down in the first place even if he does get hit in a bad spot, and between his speed and strength otherwise, as well as how fast those punches go, kinda have a hard time seeing him die by ocelot there.
also he can totally karate chop a bullet. fighting is good against steel!
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
Was going to say Bullet Punch Machamp wins, but yeah Fortune Shield would cancel that, and I don't buy Machamp being quick enough to get to Ocelot before he takes a bullet to the head.
Ocelot
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "I was wrong." - SmartMuffin
Also Machamp isn't going to be hitting Ocelot from anything but up close. Machamp isn't getting up close to Ocelot he isn't going to stand there while a freakish four armed beast strolls up to him. And Machamp will be dodging or trying to block bullets. Maybe his fists block the initial flurry, but Ocelot will figure him out and then start throwing ricochets which will likely be too much for the Pokemon.
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "I was wrong." - SmartMuffin
pokemon stats don't make sense, i thought we knew this already and never used them in anything. otherwise a cow can go faster than mach 2. hell, the fastest Machamps are faster than the slowest Pidgeots, the birds which go at Mach 2.
and comparing a psychic attack to a bullet is all kinds of wrong. one isn't even a tangible object.
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
Are you sure? I swear I used a gameshark to give my machamp fissure for the laughs once and missed as much as normal.
I suppose it's possible that I did this with Butterfree's Compound Eyes though.
I forgot about the case that Panthera described where the OHKO attack fails against higher level Pokemon. However, I interpret that as being part of immunity because the attack will never work No Guard or not as opposed to the attack missing. If you were to use Lock On then an OHKO attack, it would still fail.
Still miss against a higher leveled opponent though IIRC. And they have a weird interaction with stuff like Protect (where apparently the formula is (100 - X)% with X being the usual accuracy of the attack, which means lower accuracy attacks are more likely to work). Given the ludicrously literal and absurd approach to No Guard that's being used here, Machamp's low speed means Bullet Punch is the best bet, and that's going to have 0 accuracy due to how weird No Guard is when put against shield like tactics. Also, fighting types are weak to psychic attacks. This means their brain is a weakness. That means a bullet to the brain should win, which Ocelot can deliver. This is significantly less implausible than "No Guard warps reality so attacks hit from fifty million miles away", so it's pretty safe to go with.
That quirk was actually fixed as of Platinum and is actually a negative for Machamp. If the shield is capable of blocking Machamp's attacks, the attack will be blocked. The Fortune deflector shield would be able to deflect Bullet Punch.
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SuperNiceDog was not so nice to my bracket. Congrats to SuperNiceDog for winning the Rivalry Rumble Guru Contest!
punches at that speed with that kinda power don't even need to land on Ocelot to kill him. and there's no way he's that slow of a pokemon. they're literally monsters and if there's one thing more impressive than having 4 arms that can go at 500 punches a second with each punch being able to, as Pearl put it, "knock a train flying", it's having the legs that can support you doing that kind of flurry.
dude's legs are beasty. can't be slow, wouldn't really make sense for the pokemon martial artist to be a slow bastard.
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
Machamp can launch 1,000 punches in just two seconds. Even if he goes for Bullet Punch first and gets one or two deflected, he's still got a few more tries to go for a Dynamic Punch or even a Karate Chop before Ocelot can pull the trigger. Machamp may have slow running speed but he attacks blindly fast.
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SuperNiceDog was not so nice to my bracket. Congrats to SuperNiceDog for winning the Rivalry Rumble Guru Contest!
his base speed is over half a Pidgeot, which has explicitly been stated to move at Mach 2. meaning Machamp would, by using the game speed, be at least capable of Mach 1 movement.
weedles are apparently fast.
hint: using game stats is stupid with pokemon. you're far better off using common sense, the dex entry, and the most sensible thing for the characters. no, a martial arts master who can send a thousand punches in 2 seconds where every one of them can send a train flying isn't going to have horrible, incapable of moving, legs. wouldn't make sense. makes a hell of a lot more sense to assume that he, like pretty much every other high end monster in the series, well exceeds a human in many things. considering he's a martial arts master, his conditioning is top notch and dude should have some solid speed to go with it. stats are a form of balance for the gameplay.
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
I just find it silly to disregard game mechanics and then use the pokedex entry when it's obvious that almost all of them are nonsense. Going off what we've seen in the show? Machamp is getting shot in the head.
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog
hell, already mentioned it earlier but let's use the actual numbers: Machamp base speed: 55. The top speed a Machamp can have is 229. this is with beneficial nature and max evs. Pidgeot base speed: 91. The lowest speed he can have is 86. that's a negative nature and max evs. if you put them on the same nature +/-, Machamp is still faster at his top speed vs. Pidgeot no speed. numbers to use? Pidgeot has a 205 min with a + nature on it, 187 is the min on a neutral, 252 is the max on a - nature, which is barely 20 points higher.
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
dex entries don't really make much sense either, no, but a hell of a lot more than stats do. <_<;
and i'm not even sure we've seen many machamps during the anime. haven't seen the anime in years. closest i remember is the pokemon movie intro where pikachu made everyone job.
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
Yeah but no one gives speed EVs to Machamp and this one isn't trained anyways. If you're arguing that this Machamp is trained, then its trainer isn't there and it can't use moves anyway.
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog
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From: Achromatic | #075 Machamp is at its peak condition.
Is that in response to me?
Peak condition means it had to have a trainer to get it those Speed EVs, and that means he's all on his lonely here with no trainer to tell him to attack.
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog
pokemon obviously can attack on their own just fine. also you're wrong on the nobody puts speed EVs on it - people DO so that it can outspeed others in similar categories.
this would be even bigger of a deal if one were in the wild. machamp as a martial arts master would most definitely want to train its speed to maximize its capabilities as it knows that the quicker it can reach a target, the quicker it can smack it with a train-flying punch. it already knows that speed kills and has some pretty nice speed behind those punches. why wouldn't it also prioritize getting to the opponent to nail him too with 'em, when that's pretty much what he's been doing the past 2 earlier forms as well?
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
I'd take him as pretty simply tanking bullets. After all, being slammed by a steelix or even punched by another Machamp would be way worse than being shot by a revolver, and Machamp's capable of taking either of those multiple times and still fighting.
He punches faster than Ocelot shoots, he tanks what Ocelot can shoot better than Ocelot tanking what Machamp deals out, they both aren't missing (and the EM shield is not working on melee, especially shown in Metal Gear Acid 2 where knives and swords still work while bullets get deflected), and Machamp has much less chance of being slow or theatrical in his attempt.
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I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663
From: Team Rocket Elite | #067 Machamp can launch 1,000 punches in just two seconds. Even if he goes for Bullet Punch first and gets one or two deflected, he's still got a few more tries to go for a Dynamic Punch or even a Karate Chop before Ocelot can pull the trigger. Machamp may have slow running speed but he attacks blindly fast.
Machamp can launch one attack before he has to stand still and take a hit. He can't even move except on his turn. Woops, he doesn't even have No Guard except as a gameplay mechanic, he's kind of stuck to that mobility issue given that you can't really mix and match what abilities he has based solely on making him stronger without the whole thing being even sillier than it already is.
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We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny
The writeup specifically states how special this Machamp is in it's use of No Guard.
It's like how Ash's Pikachu is way different from other Pikachu. Or how some in shows have specific abilities that let them do things otherwise impossible (like acting as a lightning rod in coop battles).
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I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663
From: KJH | #082 The writeup specifically states how special this Machamp is in it's use of No Guard.
...no it doesn't
And if it did, you'd have to point out where this being exists - the Pokemon series does not contain a canonical example of a Machamp who can kill an insect on Pluto by punching the Eiffel Tower through No Guard hax
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We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny
From: Panthera | #081 Machamp can launch one attack before he has to stand still and take a hit. He can't even move except on his turn. Woops, he doesn't even have No Guard except as a gameplay mechanic, he's kind of stuck to that mobility issue given that you can't really mix and match what abilities he has based solely on making him stronger without the whole thing being even sillier than it already is.
This whole thing is pretty stupid because it's like allowing RST GANON again. So yeah, you can expect mix-n-matching here.
From: KJH | #079 Machamp.
I'd take him as pretty simply tanking bullets. After all, being slammed by a steelix or even punched by another Machamp would be way worse than being shot by a revolver, and Machamp's capable of taking either of those multiple times and still fighting.
He punches faster than Ocelot shoots, he tanks what Ocelot can shoot better than Ocelot tanking what Machamp deals out, they both aren't missing (and the EM shield is not working on melee, especially shown in Metal Gear Acid 2 where knives and swords still work while bullets get deflected), and Machamp has much less chance of being slow or theatrical in his attempt.
What part of 'hits the brain directly' didn't you get KJH? Machamp's skin isn't a barrier. The bullet bypasses it.
I've still seen no *real* arguments as to how Machamp wins this. He can't No Guard him from a mile off, because No Guard doesn't work that way. Meaning he'd have to close in, which Ocelot isn't going to let him do in a million years
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable
I don't think Machamp can take bullets, or reach Ocelot before he shoots.
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Our Drunker Master picked up the only remaining improvised weapon which would work, the dwarf. Since the dwarf was lawful we now had a lawful aligned weapon.