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Board 8 > ^King of the Mountain^ - Save My Mage/Wizard - Day #4

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Great_Paul
12/11/11 9:27:00 PM
#101:


Luna

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vcharon
12/11/11 9:33:00 PM
#102:


Unsafe:

John Constantine (Hellblazer)
Maya (Dragon Quest IV)
Suwako Moriya (Mountain of Faith)
Vaarsuvius (The Order of the Stick)
Yue Ayase (Negima)

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whipper
12/11/11 9:33:00 PM
#103:


Suwako Moriya

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Drakeryn
12/11/11 9:34:00 PM
#104:


Vaarsuvius


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vcharon
12/11/11 9:35:00 PM
#105:


Constantine

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Shoenin_Kakashi
12/11/11 9:36:00 PM
#106:


Maya

goddamn missed this entire round basically

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vcharon
12/11/11 9:36:00 PM
#107:


Eliminated: Yue Ayase (Negima)

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Raka_Putra
12/11/11 9:38:00 PM
#108:


Dammit, Yue.

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cyan1001
12/11/11 9:39:00 PM
#109:


bad elimination
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The Utility Man
12/11/11 9:39:00 PM
#110:


You really should put Mordekaiser back in. There was no reason to remove him and Ryze is a terrible character let alone replacement. >_>

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vcharon
12/11/11 9:41:00 PM
#111:


There is reason; he's not a mage. The game itself doesn't even consider him one. That's nearly irrefutable.

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Shoenin_Kakashi
12/11/11 9:42:00 PM
#112:


Ryze is actually a mage though

yeah he's boring and last time I played he sucked(dunno if they changed him or not), but he fits the rules better.

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The Utility Man
12/11/11 9:43:00 PM
#113:


From: vcharon
There is reason; he's not a mage. The game itself doesn't even consider him one. That's nearly irrefutable.


Yea but I explained that to you. The reason the game doesn't specifically say "MAGE" in his profile is because he isn't meant to be played like one, not because he isn't. And again, there are MUCH better choices than Ryze. In fact, almost all the mages would be better. (Not that I'd use Annie either)

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vcharon
12/11/11 9:48:00 PM
#114:


Well I wanted to start the round, and the only person that replied suggested those two so I acted accordingly.

ANY character in any RPG can be played like a mage if you try to make them out to be one, but that doesn't change what they are. This contest's purpose was to include characters that were actually mages by design, and I'm unhappy with a lot of the inclusions but allowed many based on technicalities. When the game itself tells me, "this is the way the character is supposed to be", then I'm inclined to believe it.

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GenesisSaga
12/11/11 9:48:00 PM
#115:


But Mordekaiser really both looks and plays more like a knight/warrior than a mage if his description was at all accurate.

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Articuno2001
12/11/11 9:49:00 PM
#116:


Yep, knew a character I usually save would go out as the round went up before the Giants game.

Oh well =|

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The Utility Man
12/11/11 9:57:00 PM
#117:


From: vcharon
ANY character in any RPG can be played like a mage if you try to make them out to be one, but that doesn't change what they are. This contest's purpose was to include characters that were actually mages by design, and I'm unhappy with a lot of the inclusions but allowed many based on technicalities. When the game itself tells me, "this is the way the character is supposed to be", then I'm inclined to believe it.


So let me get this straight...

If I play a MediEval game about Merlin and I do nothing but use non magic abilities even though "story-wise" he's obviously a mage, he wouldn't be allowed? <_<

Honestly, I know the game doesn't put mage in his profile but if you actually knew his storyline he is a mage. Still though, I wasn't around for recommendations and I honestly think you should have asked me since I saved Morde for all 3 of the first rounds who to replace him with.

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vcharon
12/11/11 10:11:00 PM
#118:


I'd have preferred it just not come to this.

Everything I read about this guy, story wise, doesn't paint him as a mage. If you can convince me in the story he IS a mage and using him as a mage isn't just a game tactic, I will put him back in. Right now I'm just not seeing anything that warrants it.

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BakusaiTenketsu
12/11/11 11:42:00 PM
#119:


Ryze is the poster mage of League of Legends. If anyone "should" be in this, it's him. He may not be the best champion, but he is pretty much the quintessential token mage character of the game.

Mordekaiser:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champions/82/mordekaiser_the_master_of_metal

VS.

Ryze:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champions/13/ryze_the_rogue_mage

...you be the judge.

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The Utility Man
12/11/11 11:43:00 PM
#120:


If you read about him, don't you know that everything he does is magic? Other than basic auto attacks that "everyone" has all of his attacks are magical, and I believe one of your stipulations was that the entrant had to be magical and most of their damage/attacks must be offensive magic? Well that's what Mordekaiser is. He's even able to siphon life from enemies and enslave their soul should they die to said attack.

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The Utility Man
12/11/11 11:44:00 PM
#121:


From: BakusaiTenketsu
Ryze is the poster mage of League of Legends. If anyone "should" be in this, it's him. He may not be the best champion, but he is pretty much the quintessential token mage character of the game.


Sure, I'm not denying Ryze fits more into the Mage category but that is no reason to disqualify Mordekaiser. Not only that, There is 0% chance of Ryze doing better in this contest than Morde would have.

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Lopen
12/11/11 11:45:00 PM
#122:


Yeah vcharon basically, the League of Legends tags are based on the role the character plays in game. A character is called a mage if it has abilities tailored around dumping them all on a guy, and a less desirable auto attack.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Champion_Attributes

In fact "Fighter" specifically says "Champions that have aspects of DPSing and tanking, combining the survivability of a tank and the damage of a DPS or a caster"

Like if you want to DQ him for another reason that's fine but DQing him based on the league of legends categorization is kinda silly.

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BakusaiTenketsu
12/11/11 11:51:00 PM
#123:


From: The Utility Man | #121
Sure, I'm not denying Ryze fits more into the Mage category but that is no reason to disqualify Mordekaiser. Not only that, There is 0% chance of Ryze doing better in this contest than Morde would have.


...well, we aren't basing the competition on "chances" are we? There is no saying when Mord or Ryze could or would go out.


The whole thing is sticky, because Morde uses his Mace and Auto Attacks, but has spell abilities... how is that not different than Sephiroth who was quoted as the example of what was not going to make it in? There are a lot of characters in this contest like that though (like Celes), so guess we just leave it to charon to figure out.

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BakusaiTenketsu
12/11/11 11:52:00 PM
#124:


From: Lopen | #123
Also if you want a really good idea of why League of Legends categories say nothing about the nature of the actual character

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Cho%27Gath_the_Terror_of_the_Void

Dude is in the mage category. He's a giant bug creature whose attacks involve impaling you with spikes, screaming really damn loud, and eating you whole. Not very magelike!


Well, I'd say about 85% or more of the champs in the game have spells or spell-like abilities. Doesn't necessarily make them mages for the point of this contest, does it?

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Lopen
12/11/11 11:52:00 PM
#125:


Also if you want a really good idea of why League of Legends categories say nothing about the nature of the actual character

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Cho%27Gath_the_Terror_of_the_Void

Dude is in the mage category. He's a giant bug creature whose attacks involve impaling you with spikes, screaming really damn loud, and eating you whole. Not very magelike!

On the other hand, this guy is a necromancer whose attacks involve summoning the undead that isn't in the mage category-- he's instead in the "fighter" and "melee" categories:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Yorick_the_Gravedigger

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Lopen
12/11/11 11:54:00 PM
#126:


From: BakusaiTenketsu | #125
Well, I'd say about 85% or more of the champs in the game have spells or spell-like abilities. Doesn't necessarily make them mages for the point of this contest, does it?


I agree. My point is that Mordekaiser's stuff outside of hammering you with his mace is magical in nature. I was merely bringing up Cho'gath as a counter-example to show that the "mage" category doesn't mean anything as to how magelike a character is for purposes of this contest.

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The Utility Man
12/11/11 11:56:00 PM
#127:


From: BakusaiTenketsu
...well, we aren't basing the competition on "chances" are we? There is no saying when Mord or Ryze could or would go out.


No we are basing it on who was nominated in and who wasn't. Between Morde and Ryze guess who wasn't nominated in....



The whole thing is sticky, because Morde uses his Mace and Auto Attacks, but has spell abilities... how is that not different than Sephiroth who was quoted as the example of what was not going to make it in? There are a lot of characters in this contest like that though (like Celes), so guess we just leave it to charon to figure out.


The difference is based on the characters abilities/powers. Sephiroth, while using magic, was just swings his sword as any sword fighter would. Mordekaiser is the master of metal and thus has power over it. Check Morde's Q attack, it's a Mace Swing but it's magical in the since that once the target has been struck it echo's out hitting multiple targets behind it. You can't tell me there's nothing magic about that. And that is easily enough to say why it's different than Seph.

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The Utility Man
12/12/11 12:03:00 AM
#129:


I don't remember cloth wearing nuker being a stipulation, however...I do remember a mostly offensive magic user being one. And again, that is Mordekaiser. Yes he looks like a huge hulking tank but that is because He is "The Master of Metal". He is not really that much different from someone like Gajeel who was also allowed in. Gajeel's power is Iron and I don't think anyone that knows Fairy Tail would object to him being in.

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Drakeryn
12/12/11 12:05:00 AM
#130:


Charon has a vision of what a mage is though, and it's something more clothy with nuking capabilty (ala FF Black Mages & D&D Wizards).

Being "clothy" is irrelevant to being a mage. For instance, I don't think people would dispute Golbez being a mage just because he wears armor instead of robes.

No comment on Mordekaiser because I haven't played lol, but arguing outfit is kind of silly.


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Shoenin_Kakashi
12/12/11 12:10:00 AM
#131:


He IS a huge hulking tank that smacks hard.

His magic does bad damage past lvl 13, can't be increased much due to his ratio's being low, and is really just they're to supplement his bulk, farm, and making that clone.

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BakusaiTenketsu
12/12/11 12:10:00 AM
#132:


I didn't say he said clothy, those are my words. But it is obvious his intent for this particular KotM was not to have hybrid characters of melee and magic, and that magic was their sole source of power which is why I included those words in my description of things I got the gist he was looking for.

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Lopen
12/12/11 12:12:00 AM
#133:


From: Shoenin_Kakashi | #131
He IS a huge hulking tank that smacks hard.


AD Mordekaiser no thanks.

Gotta build that guy with a good amount of AP otherwise he's worthless.

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The Utility Man
12/12/11 12:13:00 AM
#134:


From: Shoenin_Kakashi
His magic does bad damage past lvl 13, can't be increased much due to his ratio's being low, and is really just they're to supplement his bulk, farm, and making that clone.


Can't disqualify him due to his damage being overly nerfed. The fact that he's mostly an offensive magic user is not changed by the amount of damage done.

From: BakusaiTenketsu
I didn't say he said clothy, those are my words. But it is obvious his intent for this particular KotM was not to have hybrid characters of melee and magic, and that magic was their sole source of power which is why I included those words in my description of things I got the gist he was looking for.


Disallowing mage's just because they can do other things besides use magic would severely limit the amount of good nominations for this contest. if you only had 10-15 good entrants out of 100 it wouldn't be an interesting contest.

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Shoenin_Kakashi
12/12/11 12:26:00 AM
#135:


AP Kaiser is borderline worthless though. His spells have mostly bad AP ratios(theyre better now than what they were it seems), nor do they do much good damage at their highest level. This makes him a non-threat outside the curse and makes waste of his extreme bulk. Rylais is the only AP item he should get and that's for the slow.

His offensive magic is not there as his primary offense, but to supplement him. Most his damage on heroes comes from smacking things and the clone/spirit doing a surprising amount of damage.

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The Utility Man
12/12/11 12:30:00 AM
#136:


From: Shoenin_Kakashi
His offensive magic is not there as his primary offense, but to supplement him. Most his damage on heroes comes from smacking things and the clone/spirit doing a surprising amount of damage.


Again, this is completely due to how and how much he is nerfed or buffed. The fact stands that almost all of his attacks are magic based.

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BakusaiTenketsu
12/12/11 11:04:00 AM
#137:


I asked this question in the League of Legends Forums to get an opinion as well... It's fairly mixed there as well:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1587860

Really comes down to charon I suppose. If Mordekaiser is out, then the rest of the field should be examined as well. As I stated, Celes is more or less a melee with magic ability, so she would need to be cut as well.

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Gatarix
12/12/11 11:12:00 AM
#138:


I don't see Celes as a mage, especially because her signature technique, Runic, is a sword technique. But I'm sure charon knew that when he let her in so I wouldn't expect him to revisit that decision.


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BakusaiTenketsu
12/12/11 12:00:00 PM
#128:


Charon has a vision of what a mage is though, and it's something more clothy with nuking capabilty (ala FF Black Mages & D&D Wizards). He admitted he didn't know every character that was nommed, and he had hoped that people would be make his job easier which is why he disclaimed what wouldn't be good in examples.

I think there are a ton of sketchy characters in this contest, and tried to argue some of this in the nomination phase.

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BakusaiTenketsu
12/12/11 12:38:00 PM
#139:


Celes is my fave on the list btw, so this is me actually condoning her being cut if she is found to be unworthy.

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SuorGenoveffa
12/12/11 12:50:00 PM
#140:


I think you guys are nitpicking way too much, if we went and looked very deeply through the list looking for pure mages, half of these characters might be thrown out and this field would be much weaker than the pirates. Besides, no point in changing half of the list with the contest started already.

Celes is easily more geared towards magic, her own runic ability uses magic.

Can't speak for the LoL character, but these things should've been covered before the contest started, not now.

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The Utility Man
12/12/11 12:52:00 PM
#141:


From: BakusaiTenketsu
I asked this question in the League of Legends Forums to get an opinion as well... It's fairly mixed there as well:


I read some of those posts, it seems to me the people who say he isn't a mage are saying that because he doesn't play like a mage.....WELL DUH! If anything those people have NO idea what you're asking and that topic should not be used to help decide if he should be in or not. (Although even most of the people in the topic are saying mage so you saying it's mixed is a bit biased)

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vcharon
12/12/11 1:21:00 PM
#142:


The list is final now, that's just how it is. Characters like Bayonetta and Celes might use melee, but at least have some excuses to be counted among mages. I don't see anything much for this guy and "you can play him like one" isn't flying with me, especially when someone who actually seems to have knowledge of the game says that's a bad way to play him.

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vcharon
12/12/11 1:25:00 PM
#143:


As for my Celes decision; she can cast spells, she has a special ability that is magical in nature as absorption. Those are her normal gameplay tactics. That's enough mage for me.

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The Utility Man
12/12/11 2:06:00 PM
#144:


From: vcharon
I don't see anything much for this guy and "you can play him like one" isn't flying with me


I don't know what you keep bringing that up for. "You can play him like one" is not what we're saying, "He IS one" is what we are saying. I don't care how someone chooses to play him, they can get 6 pairs of boots on him for all I care, but he IS a mage regardless of how he's played.

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vcharon
12/12/11 2:17:00 PM
#145:


The Utility Man posted...

The reason the game doesn't specifically say "MAGE" in his profile is because he isn't meant to be played like one, not because he isn't.

This is what you said yourself.

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BakusaiTenketsu
12/12/11 2:18:00 PM
#146:


From: The Utility Man | #140
I read some of those posts, it seems to me the people who say he isn't a mage are saying that because he doesn't play like a mage.....WELL DUH! If anything those people have NO idea what you're asking and that topic should not be used to help decide if he should be in or not. (Although even most of the people in the topic are saying mage so you saying it's mixed is a bit biased)


I did try to clarify it in a second post on Page 2. And there are just as many people calling him a Fighter or "not a spell-caster" as there are people calling him a mage. It's not bias, the posts spoke for themselves.

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The Utility Man
12/12/11 2:26:00 PM
#147:


From: vcharon
This is what you said yourself.


Yes exactly, and do you know why he isn't mean to be a spell spammer? Because of how much damage his spells do "gameplay" wise, not "story" wise. I would think what the character is would be more important than how he's played. How often in video games are you able to play a character the way you want as opposed to how they are storywise. How many RPG's can you play a Mage character and never cast a spell, well pretty much all of them. The reason Morde is not meant to be played as a spell spammer is simply that his spells don't do enough damage to warrant him only doing that, which is a gameplay mechanic.


From: BakusaiTenketsu
I did try to clarify it in a second post on Page 2. And there are just as many people calling him a Fighter or "not a spell-caster" as there are people calling him a mage. It's not bias, the posts spoke for themselves.


Let's count then.

Calling him a Mage - 14
Calling him something else - 4

And some of the people saying he isn't are basing it on game mechanics. What topic are you looking at?!

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vcharon
12/12/11 2:33:00 PM
#148:


Alright, I'll just return Mordekaiser to the field. I really wish you people would have just nominated Ryze instead though; it's kinda harmful to the nature of my contests to have "maybe" guys in them.

I can't really disallow him now that I've studied it a little closer. He can use magic, and that ended up being my core point for this. He has some magical attacks in his arsenal and somewhat reminds me of a death knight. It's hard to disallow him and allow Bayonetta.

SIGH

Please don't do this next contest guys.

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BakusaiTenketsu
12/12/11 2:35:00 PM
#149:


You are also splitting hairs. If you look at when I posted the "mixed" results post, and compared it to the time stamps of the topic, it was 4 and 4 ish on both sides.

chraon rules Mord is out and Ryze is in. Don't participate if it's going to cause you grief, though I wish you would and stop worrying about it. I doubt Mord or Ryze is taking first in this anyways, both are fodder.

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The Utility Man
12/12/11 2:36:00 PM
#150:


From: vcharon
I really wish you people would have just nominated Ryze instead though


Speaking for myself I wouldn't have as I hate Ryze. I don't know how many nominations he got but obviously it wasn't as many as Morde.


Sorry to give you so much trouble with it charon, but Morde is one of my favorite characters in the game and definitely a mage. I can't see myself not tossing him a save when I have a chance every time.

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