SmartMuffin posted... From: SlymDayspring | #046 who is disputing that
who From: LordoftheMorons | #048 SmartMuffin posted... Sexual preference may not be a choice.
Sexual behavior most certainly is.
Well then good thing homosexuality isn't the same thing as having gay sex! So, your guy's only grievance with Chuck is his inaccurate word choice? Good to know!
Totally irrelevant since schools aren't telling anyone to have sex at all, let alone gay sex. Do I also think that the argument "it's okay to have gay thoughts as long as you don't act on them" is total bulls***? Well yeah, but that's not what anyone's talking about besides you.
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From: LOLContests | #052 Not wanting public schools to teach homosexuality isn't the same thing as hating gay people
Well, why else would you not want schools to teach people to be tolerant and supportive of homosexuality?
The absence of any teaching one way or the other would be a neutral position. You seem to assume that unless children are specifically instructed in how being a homosexual is a great thing that we should all support, they will somehow independently come to the conclusion that being a homosexual is a monstrosity that should be condemned. Why would that be the case?
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I used to hate Chuck Norris because of the lame fads and horribly stupid jokes. Now I think he is awesome. I agree with whoever said they are becoming the most pompous and annoying minority. If I say anything that could possibly be stretched into something negative...I'm automatically a homophobe. Same deal with being a racist for anything that can be stretched into a negative statement. I was called a racist for saying I think Pujols is older than he reports his age to be. That is downright moronic.
From: LOLContests | #052 Not wanting public schools to teach homosexuality isn't the same thing as hating gay people
Well, why else would you not want schools to teach people to be tolerant and supportive of homosexuality?
They absolutely should not be taught to be tolerant and supportive of it. They should be taught nothing and make their own choices. To do anything else would ruin this country.
SmartMuffin posted... From: LOLContests | #052 Not wanting public schools to teach homosexuality isn't the same thing as hating gay people
Well, why else would you not want schools to teach people to be tolerant and supportive of homosexuality? The absence of any teaching one way or the other would be a neutral position. You seem to assume that unless children are specifically instructed in how being a homosexual is a great thing that we should all support, they will somehow independently come to the conclusion that being a homosexual is a monstrosity that should be condemned. Why would that be the case?
Because that's what a large percentage of their parents tell them. Homosexuals face a very hostile environment in elementary through high school; would you have opposed schools in the 60's telling students that there's nothing wrong with being black, because that isn't the "neutral position"?
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Why should a school take a neutral position on being kind and respectful to your fellow man?
You can teach this without mentioning homosexuality in specific.
This is my problem with the PC movement entirely, to be quite honest. Not specific to homosexuality at all. When you teach a child "You should be nice to someone, even if they're black" the obvious implication is that being black is a negative thing and that without instruction, you would otherwise be predisposed to not be nice to that person.
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From: SmartMuffin | #054 The absence of any teaching one way or the other would be a neutral position. You seem to assume that unless children are specifically instructed in how being a homosexual is a great thing that we should all support, they will somehow independently come to the conclusion that being a homosexual is a monstrosity that should be condemned. Why would that be the case?
Well I imagine that it's something that's dealt with as it comes up and some kid actually demonstrates prejudice against them. Unless things have changed radically in the last 12 years, I certainly don't remember any specific "Gay Tolerance" school assemblies.
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From: LOLContests | #057 The absence of any teaching one way or the other would be a neutral position
Why should a school take a neutral position on being kind and respectful to your fellow man?
Because it would be absolutely awful if they did not take a neutral stance. How would you feel if schools started teaching the students to support the political party that you oppose? Does that sound fair? You can tell a child to respect and be kind to all people. You cannot throw sexual preference into the mix though. That is a completely inappropriate way of handling it and it is just trying to manipulate them into your way of thinking.
Because that's what a large percentage of their parents tell them
And God forbid parents be allowed to raise their children according to their own values. We certainly can't have that, not when we can use the power of the state to forcibly indoctrinate them!
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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/
Unless things have changed radically in the last 12 years, I certainly don't remember any specific "Gay Tolerance" school assemblies.
Right, I think you and I are of a certain age to have missed most of this stuff, but just barely. And yet somehow, even without specific instruction telling me not to do so, I've never been abnormally cruel to a gay person!
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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/
How would you feel if schools started teaching the students to support the political party that you oppose? Does that sound fair?
xfd if you think this isn't already happening
Did you see the video back in 2008 of the school teacher asking third graders who they would vote for, then grilling the ONE kid who said he would vote for McCain?
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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/
SmartMuffin posted... Because that's what a large percentage of their parents tell them
And God forbid parents be allowed to raise their children according to their own values. We certainly can't have that, not when we can use the power of the state to forcibly indoctrinate them!
Why can't a parent raise his or her child to be a bigot, I say!?
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SmartMuffin posted... Because that's what a large percentage of their parents tell them
And God forbid parents be allowed to raise their children according to their own values. We certainly can't have that, not when we can use the power of the state to forcibly indoctrinate them!
So you're saying nothing should be done to stop all the bullying that gay students face because that would be stomping on the rights of parents to make their kids into douchebags?
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Schools exist to educate people...not to force their values down their throats. If educators want to teach their own children to think a certain way, that is fine. But they are stepping over a thousand lines by teaching my kids to think their way. If an educator, for example, tried to teach my kids to believe in Jesus (I am Jewish), I would be absolutely furious. It is not their place to tell my kids which religion to believe in. Similarly, it is not their place to tell my kids how to feel about other groups of people. They are not raising my kids. I am. They are not supporting my kids financially and emotionally, I am. They are trying to cross lines and it is just horrible.
This is my problem with the PC movement entirely, to be quite honest. Not specific to homosexuality at all. When you teach a child "You should be nice to someone, even if they're black" the obvious implication is that being black is a negative thing and that without instruction, you would otherwise be predisposed to not be nice to that person.
People generally are predisposed to act negatively toward those that are different. Welcome to history! And childhood for that matter!
And God forbid parents be allowed to raise their children according to their own values. We certainly can't have that, not when we can use the power of the state to forcibly indoctrinate them!
If parents are teaching their kids that homosexuality is a monstrosity, sounds like some pretty horrible parents.
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So you're saying nothing should be done to stop all the bullying that gay students face because that would be stomping on the rights of parents to make their kids into douchebags?
Uh, you can punish bullies without indoctrinating children. Hating someone isn't necessarily wrong. Acting upon it pretty much always is.
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foolm0ron posted... I would agree with Chuck Norris if it weren't for the fact that public schools can't even teach spelling correctly, let alone how to be gay
lmao, I don't sig things but I'm tempted.
I'm hardly anti-gay, but the outspoken ones sure do try too hard. I wish they were all like the ones I knew in person, who were cool people that wouldn't strike you as overtly gay beyond the cliche woman's rugby player. It's not like we should *need* anti- or pro-gay propoganda. As such, there shouldn't be any need for any beyond basic tolerance. And if schools are somehow succeeding at teaching tolerance, I sure haven't noticed. (Then again, I teach math, so it's not like I frequently have philosophical issues to deal with beyond how 0.999 repeating does in fact equal 1.)
Anyone arguing that the schools should be shoving their own values down their students throats is obviously in support of allowing schools to shove different religions down their students throats as well. If you are okay with schools teaching their own personal ideals regarding homosexuality, then you would obviously be okay with teaching students that Jesus did not exist and that Judaism is the only right religion. Afterall, why shouldn't schools get to teach their personal beliefs to our own children...right?
Schools exist to educate people...not to force their values down their throats. If educators want to teach their own children to think a certain way, that is fine. But they are stepping over a thousand lines by teaching my kids to think their way.
So you don't think schools should teach children to be polite, say 'please' and 'thank you,' raise their hands, etc.
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SmartMuffin posted... So you're saying nothing should be done to stop all the bullying that gay students face because that would be stomping on the rights of parents to make their kids into douchebags?
Uh, you can punish bullies without indoctrinating children. Hating someone isn't necessarily wrong. Acting upon it pretty much always is.
and where does action come from smuffin
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SmartMuffin posted... So you're saying nothing should be done to stop all the bullying that gay students face because that would be stomping on the rights of parents to make their kids into douchebags?
Uh, you can punish bullies without indoctrinating children. Hating someone isn't necessarily wrong. Acting upon it pretty much always is.
Or you could, you know, try to prevent the bullying from happening in the first place. You don't think a kid's more likely to bully gay people if he thinks that they're intrinsically worse people? Look up Jane Elliot's blue eyes experiment.
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From: LordoftheMorons | #076 Or you could, you know, try to prevent the bullying from happening in the first place. You don't think a kid's more likely to bully gay people if he thinks that they're intrinsically worse people? Look up Jane Elliot's blue eyes experiment.
This is headed right into a "thought police" debate which neither side will win.
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6000 students leaving public schools each year is not such a high number at all. Nor is it telling of anything. Not when the United States has over 14,000 school districts.
I don't see how students are taught to 'disdain America'. Nor do I see many of the other issues he brings up.
Probably. And yet, you have the right to be a horrible parent. At least you used to. The government is slowly but surely taking that one away too.
Do you think there should be no laws protecting kids from horrible parents?
From: Lucretia Merces | #079 I don't see how students are taught to 'disdain America'. Nor do I see many of the other issues he brings up.
Yeah, on the contrary, the fact that "US History" and "World History" were given the same weight in high school kinda gave me the gut instinct that America was on its own equal to the entire rest of the world!
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I say if the parents aren't going to teach their kids that gay people are equal to literally everyone else, then someone has to. Hatred breeds more hatred, ignorance more ignorance. Gotta break that cycle so we can progress beyond hating people for things outside of their control.
User728 posted... Because it would be absolutely awful if they did not take a neutral stance.
I don't think that's a good rule for schools in general.
Take Evolution, for instance. There are people who try to claim Intelligent Design is a legitimate scientific alternative, and that "both sides of the issue" should be taught in classrooms.
Or take the whole 0.999~ = 1 stuff. Should we be avoiding teaching that because of the controversy, and just take a "neutral stance"?
Or the holocaust, there are people who claim it never happened. Should we avoid putting it in history books because there is "controversy", and we wouldn't want to take anything other than a neutral stance?
Point is, if you're going to be obsessed with being completely neutral, then there are quite a few subjects you will never teach.
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From: SmartMuffin | #065 How would you feel if schools started teaching the students to support the political party that you oppose? Does that sound fair?
xfd if you think this isn't already happening
Did you see the video back in 2008 of the school teacher asking third graders who they would vote for, then grilling the ONE kid who said he would vote for McCain?
I didn't but that is awful.
From: LOLContests | #074 Schools exist to educate people...not to force their values down their throats. If educators want to teach their own children to think a certain way, that is fine. But they are stepping over a thousand lines by teaching my kids to think their way.
So you don't think schools should teach children to be polite, say 'please' and 'thank you,' raise their hands, etc.
They can do all of that. And none of that would require any mention of homosexuality.
From: metroid composite | #084 I don't think that's a good rule for schools in general.
Take Evolution, for instance. There are people who try to claim Intelligent Design is a legitimate scientific alternative, and that "both sides of the issue" should be taught in classrooms.
Or take the whole 0.999~ = 1 stuff. Should we be avoiding teaching that because of the controversy, and just take a "neutral stance"?
Or the holocaust, there are people who claim it never happened. Should we avoid putting it in history books because there is "controversy", and we wouldn't want to take anything other than a neutral stance?
Point is, if you're going to be obsessed with being completely neutral, then there are quite a few subjects you will never teach.
All of your examples are facts. We should teach facts. It is pushing opinions on the students that I have a problem with.
We certainly can't have that, not when we can use the power of the state to forcibly indoctrinate them!
...what the hell is wrong with "forcibly indoctrinating" children with the fact that homosexuals/blacks/whatever minority is not evil? Are you also against schools indoctrinating children with the idea of 1+1 being equal to 2?
User728 posted... From: LordoftheMorons | #086 It's also a fact that people don't choose to be homosexual. That is fine but that has absolutely nothing to do with supporting homosexuality.
Given that a lot of anti-gay groups try to claim that homosexuality is a choice, actually I think it has a good deal to do with supporting homosexuality.
What about teaching other studies that have been done. Like the genetic correlation of homosexuality. Like how the children of gay parents are no more likely to end up gay than the children of straight parents. Like how countries where gay marriage is legalized there has been no adverse effect on heterosexual marriages?
All of these are "facts" rather than "stances". Are you fine with all of these being taught just as long as the teacher at the end of the class says "but I will not state an opinion on whether homosexuality is good or bad"?
(...For that matter, as someone who actually is gay and actively supports the gay movement...I have no real opinion on whether homosexuality is good or bad. I tend to feel more like it exists, and is inherently pretty neutral, and I shouldn't assume good or bad things about someone just because of their sexual orientation. Because, to be blunt, not all gay people are nice, well-adjusted people; much like not all straight people are nice, well-adjusted people).
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No one compared themselves to the Holocaust, it was used as an example to why schools shouldn't practice neutrality and it's a damn good example. Stop overreacting.
From: Lopen | #039 Eh I don't think there's necessarily a problem with this. He just doesn't think it should be taught in schools, which isn't necessarily the outright wrong stance to have, even if I don't necessarily agree with it or even feel that it's relevant to the current state of the public school system. I kinda think in a day and age where gay marriage and such are such hot topics that this will start to happen in schools, if it hasn't already, and public schools do tend to lean "left" in general. I wouldn't be surprised if it already has started considering it's been a while since I've been in school.
So I uh, actually kinda agree with Ulti on this one. Rare event!
Best post in the topic. No surprise its a Lopen post
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From: LOLContests | #096 Knew it was only a matter of time before gays compared themselves to the Holocaust.
Not that anyone did that, but you are aware that gay people were killed in the Holocaust as well, right?
So were blacks, gypsies, Jehovah's witnesses, Russians, Slovenians, cripples, and Masons. Should TheKoolAidShoto start comparing himself to holocaust victims?
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