Sceptilesolarbeam posted... Battler unlocked it, left, and locked it again. Erika can't tell if it changed.
DIE THE DEATH SENTENCE TO DEATH GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH
[Request: 'The definition of closed room implies that it is impossible to construct from the OUTSIDE'.] Acknowledged.
If you can count Kanon's or Battler's hands crossing the threshold of the doorframe to reseal the chain as inside, then yes. Or perhaps because of Erika's original seal, it was a closed room from inside. Or something something Kinzo's room in Episode 5 was still a closed room even though someone could have jumped out the window while Natsuhi's back was turned. Or how George escaped from the guest house in episode 3. Or maybe Knox doesn't really pertain to Umineko completely. I know Dine doesn't, but I can't prove Knox otherwise.
Therefore, when I entered the room, it is certain that Battler was hiding somewhere inside the guest room. The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seals. To be even more specific, he had no chance to escape except for the time I was in the bathroom.
If there is a means or opportunity to escape a closed room, then it is not a closed room.
If there is a means to escape a closed room, then it is not a closed room.
Didn't I already use this one?
In other words, the chain was repaired by the duct tape, and this room once again became a closed room locked from the inside.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
Then either there's a contradiction in Erika's red truth, the locked room from the inside applies only until Erika turns her back allowing an escape, or hands passing the threshold.
And yes, there may be precedent for contradiction in Erika's red truth.
" "So I dashed all over the mansion, visited all the crime scenes, and......I re-killed all of them."
...
She completely severed the heads of all those she killed.
...
All five people I killed.......were very much alive until the moment I killed them.
... "
And yet, earlier in the tale...
• At the time of the deconstruction of the closed rooms, none existed within the rooms except the VICTIMS (Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, Battler)
• No murder was committed after the deconstruction of the closed ROOMS.
Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!! I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!
Even if you do join us-- There are 17 people.
She proclaims herself, in red, that she is the eighteenth person on Rokkenjima. Yet in the very next reply, there are only 17 people on Rokkenjima, INCLUDING her. Her Red Truth was a lie, or only a truth from Furudo Erika's perspective.
and it doesn't appear. However, even if that's true, when was that red given? Can you deny that Erika killed the people after that red was given?
She proclaims herself, in red, that she is the eighteenth person on Rokkenjima. Yet in the very next reply, there are only 17 people on Rokkenjima, INCLUDING her. Her Red Truth was a lie, or only a truth from Furudo Erika's perspective.
I can't explain this, but I don't really have to anyway. Arguing that the red isn't 100% true is infringing on the rules of the game; that's not an admissable argument.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
True, and it's a dirty tactic by me because I can't figure out how to dispute those lines unless they were time differentiated, mistranslations, Erika is a faulty truth-maker or that the closed room from the inside was a truth for her, or Erika's definition of a closed room is askew, or a different definition of inside or something. You've got me there. I still hold to my statements though even though I can't figure it out now. It's not 23:59. I don't have to use all my blue at once.
And as for where those came from, they weren't really in red. They were lines by... Erika, I think, maybe Battler that Dlanor ACKNOWLEDGED in Red. They weren't said in red, but can be considered red truths.
And actually, re-reading all my notes. I am incorrect.
Dlanor actually refused that last statement about the murders after the closed rooms. For some reason, I still bolded it. It was a mistake.
As well, I see a red truth now that pretty much scraps a lot of what I built up.
[Request: 'The definition of a closed room implies that all forms of interference that pass between the inside and outside of the room are PREVENTED'.] Acknowledged. [However, I won't deny the kinds of interference that you'd expect from a normal room, such as knocks, voices, and the extension telephone line.]
Therefore, I withdraw my arguments unless new information comes to light. I have been defeated.
But really.
You'd rather have Kanon coming in, taking Battler's place in the closet, and then switching personalities/giving up Kanon's personality as a solution and an acceptable dodge around the red truths (with it all coming undone as soon as Erika opens the door and sees who is inside), than an acceptable and inventive way to exit the room that has many hints laid out all through the chapter?
Sleight of hand Tons of emphasis on the chain of the door Light emphasis on the chain being broken and needing to be resealed - "A result without an observer can possess an endless number of ways in which it might have occurred. Humans, who can't grasp anything more than a single possibility, are unable to imagine anything." - One of the foundations of magic is decorating the process. Just because it can be done by a sleight of hand doesn't disprove magic.
Regardless of this fun little banter, my own Umineko experience went like: 'Hey, this is kinda fun. No, Battler, it'd be more fun if magic does exist. Beatrice rules, Battles drools. Hell yeah magic is awesome.' and then people were like 'No Raka you must deny the witches!' and then I was like 'what ever betrice can kick battlrs ass anytime hes just a dum red usirhomiya any way' I always cheer for the fantasy side, despite blasphemous naysayers. I rarely make theories and was mostly in it for the ride, although I did solve Nanjo's EP3 death pretty quickly.
You'd rather have Kanon coming in, taking Battler's place in the closet, and then switching personalities/giving up Kanon's personality as a solution and an acceptable dodge around the red truths (with it all coming undone as soon as Erika opens the door and sees who is inside), than an acceptable and inventive way to exit the room that has many hints laid out all through the chapter?
It's not what I'd rather have, just that it seems to be the case.
--
"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
Umineko > Kiri no Pithos > Katayoku no Tori > Occultics no Majo
TRUTH
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
Oh, and I guess you could count the two OMK OPs and the PS3 OP too... This is tricky. I like all of them pretty well.
--
"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
Regaro_Ukiera posted... Am I seriously the only one that likes Occultics no Majo
I quite like Occultics no Majo, but it's kind of cliche sounding. Umineko themes need to be kind of unique.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
From: Mega Mana | #256 You'd rather have Kanon coming in, taking Battler's place in the closet, and then switching personalities/giving up Kanon's personality as a solution and an acceptable dodge around the red truths (with it all coming undone as soon as Erika opens the door and sees who is inside), than an acceptable and inventive way to exit the room that has many hints laid out all through the chapter?
Kind of late to the party, but oh well. Anyways, to this I'd have to answer yes.
An answer supported by hints laid out throughout the chapter, as you say, would ruin the point of this particular closed room. Ryuukishi purposely made it impossible to solve if you just looked for hints in the scenes directly related to the closed room, and instead made it important to pay attention to the parts about romance and love. His purpose in writing Umineko was to create a mystery that could only be solved with both logic and emotion. The theme of the entire series is without love it cannot be seen, and the finale of EP6 perfectly embodies that theme.
On another topic, George, Jessica & Nanjo's murders in EP3 are not covered by Will and Clair in EP7. I wonder if you can solve them now?
Oh, while we're no it...'the obvious culprit wields a mutable blade' Does the 'obvious' culprit refer to the real culprit? Or just the one suspect that's the most obvious? I read about this interpretation on a topic...
Kyrie shot him, but then she died right after? The stomach wound was not immediately fatal and she killed Maria, Rosa, George, all the servants, Nanjo, Hideyoshi, and maybe Rudolf. Eva killed Natsuhi & Krauss? Their death and placement I don't understand. Eva also killed Battler.
Now that just bugs me. EP3 retroactively sucked when I realized that the Kyrie culprit thing was being ruled out.
--
"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
From: Mega Mana | #357 *Spoilers For Ep. 3, Nanjo's Death*
Kyrie shot him, but then she died right after? The stomach wound was not immediately fatal and she killed Maria, Rosa, George, all the servants, Nanjo, Hideyoshi, and maybe Rudolf. Eva killed Natsuhi & Krauss? Their death and placement I don't understand. Eva also killed Battler.
Is that about right?
Nope. Kyrie is not the culprit of EP3. Will's answer to her death in the hall is earth to earth. no falsehoods in final moments as told. I'll give you a hint. The best solution doesn't involve playing with the times of death.
Also, there's a certain rule that allows you to instantly pinpoint someone as an accomplice with certainty. Who else figured it out? I know I've said what it is a few times in other threads, but did anyone else come to the same realization as me?
I mean, wasn't 'Without love, the truth cannot be seen' in the first place a way of telling the reader that Eva wasn't the culprit? EP7 retroactively makes EP3 pretty bad, that's for sure.
--
"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
I may have to go back and read that part of Episode 7 again, but couldn't Earth to Earth refer to that there were no illusions in the way they died?
Kanon getting stabbed with a stake and pulling it out is an illusion. Kyrie actually getting staked through the stomach is not. It is also this wound that she dies from, just not when we think it happened. It also solves the whole "there may be a person who died at the time of the red who wasn't dead when Nanjo was killed" thing. Eva, Jessica, and Battler could not kill Nanjo, and Nanjo was killed by another person.
No, there are no illusions about how Kyrie died. Earth to earth, she died because of stake wound to the stomach in the mansion. But there has to be one "Illusion to Illusion" or "Earth to Earth" that obscures a fact from the audience, and this one can easily do it. Kyrie isn't faking her wound. It is real. All the other illusions are faked corpses, not really closed rooms, or subtle explanations of what really transpired.
Rudolf really died from a stake wound. Hideyoshi really died from a stake wound. Kyrie really died from a stake wound.
- Kyrie: "The stomach isn't a very lethal spot." Welp.
Select passages from re-reading those portions after Will's "Earth to Earth" proclamation:
Jumping in time towards the mansion deaths. Assuming Kyrie is the culprit, hooooooly crap. #1 - She tells Krauss to stay put. He is the Ushiromiya head, after all. #2 - Rudolf: "I think Kyrie and I, and Hideyoshi-san as well, should go." Wolf and sheep puzzle. Move the raft over with two wolves and one sheep. #3 - Rudolf: "When I went to check on Rosa and Maria-chan, I was the only one holding a gun." ****, I need to check this out. Since they didn't die by gunshot, was Kyrie there?
- Both George and Nanjo seem shaken by Kyrie's argument towards the servant murders as a hoax... I think I get it now... Kyrie and Rudolf are aware of the Ushiromiya heir and are working to get the gold for themselves. - "However, I would never mistake whether they were alive or dead." Clearly, they lived!
- Damn! Look at this skilled conversation steering! "This is just for peace of mind, but... at the time we think Rosa-san was attacked outside, where was everyone?" - At the time they think... Natsuhi, Krauss, Rudolf, and Kyrie in the guest house and their alibis are guaranteed, Eva and Hideysohi were together, George, Jessica, and Battler were together, Nanjo alone.
1. Rudolf suggesting sedative pills. Rosa opens the bottle but it is empty. - Hmm Maria really wants to see her rose, but she's got her Beatrice face on. Now I feel like flipping back to see what happened before Maria went to sleep... kihihi. A manipulation. - What's this?
"[Hideyoshi] didn't notice that Rosa and Maria were going outside through the front door at all. In that case, there was no way that the others in the lobby, which was even further away, would notice. And the cousins' room on the second story was even worse...!"
- Game five again. Erika, Gohda, and Nanjo in the lobby. Erika says she would be aware of anyone who entered or exited through the front door. Battler says there's no way they would notice. Would they notice though? Also, it's Rudolf and Kyrie's time on lookout and Natsuhi and Krauss are slated for naptime... fffffffffff...
Actual #1. Rudolf saying now is the best time to go to the mansion because it'll only get darker out. 'Now is the most convenient time.' Actual #2. Only about an hour has passed since Rosa-san was attacked. Leading the conversation. Also, times don't match up to the clocks. 10:30 - Rosa and Maria face Evatrice. 11:00 - Rudolf discovers Rosa and Maria are missing and goes off 'alone' to find them. 1:00 - This conversation apparently takes place. So either episodes end at their scheduled time, the two hours is completely off, or Rudolf is lying/telling his truth/has no sense of time. Or maybe they changed the clocks? Nah... - No big hints after. And now... not sure if I should trust what's to come. So I'll go back to game seven. Even if this part is so incredibly awesome.
- Battler, Eva, George, and Nanjo found the corpses. Jessica, Krauss, and Natsuhi remain at the gueshouse. Does Jessica's blindness have something to do with how Krauss and Natsuhi die?Virgilia again tells it without seeing the reactions. - RONOVE DECLINES FROM REPEATING THAT THREE OF THEM ARE DEAD IN RED. What about earth to earth? - Ronove's excuse is that he shouldn't speak in red in his lady's place. lolol - No declaration or truth is made upon Beatrice's return, nor is there a call for one.
Also: - Haaaaaa! Nice wordplay! Kanon: "For Kanon, the chapel. Now that he's dead, let him continue to protect the place important to the Lord." Well done! Well done!
Also, if we look at the magical storytelling... Kyrie's power of envy is like 9999999999. She could've battled through a fatal wound and massive bleeding for as long as possible to take her revenge. Her murders stopped when Eva killed Battler.
But Kyrie was presented to have died there. If she hadn't, Will wouldn't have said no falsehoods in final moments as told. It wasn't in red, but Clair was obviously satisfied with that answer.
Anyways, the time of death thing is a nice bit of logic, but it's more of a loophole than a solution. It'll be obvious if you solve George and Jessica's murders first. The fantasy scenes are big clues, as is the number left on the wall outside of the room George is found dead in. For George in particular, there's only one possible culprit.
Nanaya27 posted... But Kyrie was presented to have died there. If she hadn't, Will wouldn't have said no falsehoods in final moments as told. It wasn't in red, but Clair was obviously satisfied with that answer.
Anyways, the time of death thing is a nice bit of logic, but it's more of a loophole than a solution. It'll be obvious if you solve George and Jessica's murders first. The fantasy scenes are big clues, as is the number left on the wall outside of the room George is found dead in. For George in particular, there's only one possible culprit.
Not sure what you mean.
I can't perfectly sort what my response is, but here's what's going through my head:
All four servants faked their death. Rosa was in on it maybe? Rosa and Eva both know of the gold, and they both probably learn about the bank account and nuke and everything while they are in the room, though we never see that scene. However, it is also very likely for a woman as smart and cutthroat as Kyrie is, she would notice how Eva took off to figure out the solution and stalked her to find out where she would go. She probably also eavesdropped on whatever transpired between Eva, Rosa, and maybe Beatrice.
And back to the hoax deaths, they were all dead by the end of the game. Like Erika in Game Six, someone went back and re-killed all of them. Kyrie suggested going to the mansion, Kyrie is the only one with a wound that can be survived for an extended period of time, both Rudolf and Hideyoshi died in her presence.
She went to the mansion to rekill the servants she knew were playing a hoax. That explains how Beatrice resurrected Shannon. Shannon was never dead. However, a different person entered and killed both of them. And went around killing all the servants. Nanjo knew of the gold, and he had to be killed too.
07151129
7/15 is Battler's birthday is most likely Beatrice's love for Battler, and the 11/29 could be the day Yasu was born if she ever learned it. It could also have been the date Battler was born / the date Kyrie gave a stillborn, but that is highly unlikely as she doesn't want to share the money. Only Yasu could give up the number. Kyrie went to the mansion to get the bank account number for the cash, for the gold, and then killed everyone there right after.
At least, that's my assumption. I don't see Eva killing George, even accidentally.
Hmm. Skimmed the parts relevant to the Kyrie being alive theory, and now I'm torn in two. There sure is a lot of evidence in the fantasy scenes and motivations of the characters for it to be Kyrie, but all the solid evidence points towards Yasu. The only physical bit of evidence supporting Kyrie being the murderer is the fact that her wound is a stomach wound, but that's opposed by stronger physical evidence pointing towards Kyrie being dead, as well as Will's words on the matter.
Honestly I think the evidence for Yasu being the murderer carries more weight, except for Yasu's motivation. It's difficult to find a reason for her to break her rule of not killing after the epitaph is solved.
I'm almost willing to accept Kyrie being in a death-like state deep enough to fool Battler, Nanjo, Eva and George, then regaining consciousness and enough strength to walk around the mansion, killing George and Nanjo, and surviving for at least 5 hours after her wound was inflicted, and willing to take the loophole in Will's words, if it's the only way of preserving Yasu's character.
