Board 8 > It's been 20 years since the Montreal Screwjob. Who was right? Bret or Vince?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I could have just asked in the PWT but I figure there are people who don't post in there who may have thoughts about this.

The way Vince went about it was seedy as fuck, but at the end of the day this was the fault of Bret Hart 100%. He had creative control, yes. He may not have been asking much not to drop the belt in front of his hometown. But when your promoter asks you to do the job, that's the end of it for a guy who was supposed to be the be all end all of professionalism. So much for that.

I remember as a kid being so confused why everyone was pissed off, because I was a total HBK mark (was? Still am. Best there ever will be). I was ecstatic he won, and Bret's tantrum at the time to me just seemed like a bigger version of the one he threw when Michaels won at WM12.

Anyway that's my take, where do you stand on the event that changed wrestling forever?
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https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/75972434

That should answer it.
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Well Vince certainly wasn't right, changing a match finish on the fly like that is super terrible and never should be done. Bret...eh, Bret was being a whinybaby, but I can see why given how even Micheals admits nowadays he was the biggest bitch on earth
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Didn't most of the other wrestlers immediately and angrily side with Bret? Some like Mick Foley were so pissed that they wanted to quit. Rick Rude did quit.

We've had 20 years of Vince's perspective (because why would the WWE communicate anything else) which has painted Bret as a selfish whiner who refused to do what was best for business, but you look at that immediate reaction in the locker room and it's hard to paint Vince in the right.

Also, has any concrete info ever surfaced about Bret's WWE contract? How exactly was Vince able to rescind it after Bret had already accepted and signed it?
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Bret was right

If you don't want Creative Control to matter, don't give guys Creative Control.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Vince.

Bret was one of the lowest drawing WWF champions of all time, and a whiny bitch to boot. Hulk was right about Bret, especially when Bret went to WCW and accomplished nothing.

What does this have to do with anything? HBK drew less than Bret (and was, by nearly every account, worse to work with back then).
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yeah - Bret's drawing power had little to do with it, and was definitely not being viewed that way. He was the biggest draw Vince had available at the time, he was not thinking "Bret doesn't even draw anyway, fuck him.". That's why Vince even wanted to have someone beat him - you can't have your own top draw leave for the competition without ever losing the belt!
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Also - pretty crazy coincidence, but I picked today this morning to sell all my WWE stock, not knowing it was the 20 year Screwjob anniversary. Now I'll never forget the day I sold it!
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Also - pretty crazy coincidence, but I picked today this morning to sell all my WWE stock, not knowing it was the 20 year Screwjob anniversary. Now I'll never forget the day I sold it!

Yo screwed Vince!
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Also, has any concrete info ever surfaced about Bret's WWE contract? How exactly was Vince able to rescind it after Bret had already accepted and signed it?

I don't think Vince was rescinding anything. Bret is the one that wanted out of his contract so he could go make more in WCW.
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Oh hmm... I thought Vince encouraged Bret to seek out the WCW contract because he was bleeding cash and that 20-year contract was a big burden (though that could just be Bret's own biased perspective).
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Vince, because he's the boss and he created the situation in the first place.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

CaptainOfCrush posted...

Also, has any concrete info ever surfaced about Bret's WWE contract? How exactly was Vince able to rescind it after Bret had already accepted and signed it?

I don't think Vince was rescinding anything. Bret is the one that wanted out of his contract so he could go make more in WCW.

The only thing I've read is the article on tvtropes about it, and that seems to suggest that it was almost a mutual thing, bret wanted out because WCW was looking better than the WWE financially, and Vince wanted bret out because his contract was a huge liability. The issue came when bret and vince couldn't come to an agreement about bret giving up the title, and vince was scared bret would jump ship while holding that title.
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Bret was willing to be eternally loyal to WWE but Vince balked on the contract he offered him.
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I think I first read about that in a Foley book but I've definitely heard it repeated over the years.
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I'm biased as a Hitman fan, but Vince was in the wrong in my book. Yeah, Bret could be whiny and he didn't want to lose the title in his last match in Canada, especially considering he didn't like HBK to begin with, but it was still a scum thing to do to protect your own ego since he wanted to ensure Bret didn't pull an Alundra Blayze.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

I don't think Vince was rescinding anything. Bret is the one that wanted out of his contract so he could go make more in WCW.

This is factually incorrect. He had that same opportunity the year prior, and turned it down to stay loyal to Vince (with admittedly a significant raise, just still not as big as WCWs offer)
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Emeraldegg posted...

The issue came when bret and vince couldn't come to an agreement about bret giving up the title, and vince was scared bret would jump ship while holding that title.

Also this is a little off. They had an agreement for Bret to drop the title at the next PPV.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Emeraldegg posted...

The issue came when bret and vince couldn't come to an agreement about bret giving up the title, and vince was scared bret would jump ship while holding that title.

Also this is a little off. They had an agreement for Bret to drop the title at the next PPV.

Ah, my apologies then.
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Yeah it wasnt so much that Bret would show up on Nitro with the belt. He legally couldnt. That was established in court after Madusa, plus he wasnt leaving for another month.

Vince was more concerned that Bischoff would come on Nitro and gloat about it in the meantime
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Not surprising Ulti would side w/ Vince...

Anyway, Bret was willing to lie down for ANYONE but Shawn.
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It was a work and Hart was in on it
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oh man apparently today is also the 15th anniversary of the Bluegrass Miracle in college football

what a day for crazy finishes
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I had read somewhere that the original plans - before Bret decided on WCW - were for Bret to hold the title and drop it to Stone Cold at WM14. Those two would have tried to top their submission match.
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LeonhartFour posted...

oh man apparently today is also the 15th anniversary of the Bluegrass Miracle in college football

what a day for crazy finishes

FUCK
OFF!!!
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I hope we can all at least agree that Vinces insistence to rehash the Screwjob every so often for an angle is awful
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I don't mind screwjob finishes in theory. Like the idea of a corrupt ref screwing with the finish can work for a particularly seedy villain, but they're all too direct a callback to Montreal for my tastes, and really any ref who ever does something like that should consider their refereeing career over at that point.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I had read somewhere that the original plans - before Bret decided on WCW - were for Bret to hold the title and drop it to Stone Cold at WM14. Those two would have tried to top their submission match.

Stone Cold/Bret Hart was a low-key great rivalry for a little while, so I'd have been all for it.
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Jakyl25 posted...

I hope we can all at least agree that Vinces insistence to rehash the Screwjob every so often for an angle is awful

It was amazing in 98.

I think it's been awful everytime since.

Capped of course by TNA.... cause of course it was.
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Vince was right.

Bret is my second favourite wrestler of all time, but he was being a jerk. Vince had no choice.
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Vince absolutely had a choice. He just didn't trust Bret.
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Vince had a choice, even if drawing it out a month was 100% off the table. He could've easily just had Bret drop the title to Shamrock (or someone else, but IIRC he actually was booked against Shamrock naturally there so it's an easy escape valve) on the Monday before the screwjob if he was really that concerned. I'm sure Bret would have been willing and it's not like Shamrock completely lacked credibility or anything.
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Vince screwed Bret. Shawn wasn't well liked in Canada and having obvious interference (not Vince) costing Bret the belt would have worked better. Shawn gets the belt, Bret keeps his pride, the Canadian fans can boo Shawn, and the Hart family can get in an angle with Shawn and whoever took out Bret.

Uglyface2 posted...

Shawn wasn't well liked in Canada and having obvious interference (not Vince) costing Bret the belt would have worked better.

no matter your feelings on if it was the right thing to do re: Bret, it's hard to say anything would have "worked better" considering it was the beginning of heel Vince.
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Lopen posted...

I'm sure Bret would have been willing and it's not like Shamrock completely lacked credibility or anything.

Shamrock was Brets first choice actually
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Bret vs. Austin at WM14 with Bret dropping the title to Austin would've been an incredible story.
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Bret Screwed Bret.

Even in Brets book, he came off whiny, and I love Bret, but this one is all on him for me. As ExTha said

"When your promoter asks you to do the job, that's the end of it"

Don't like it? Then walk, like Punk and Neville.

I sort of wonder if WWF still exists today without the screwjob.

That really was the catalyst of interest that got WWF off the mat and set their creative direction for the next...20 years.
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CoffeeNinjaB8 posted...

Even in Brets book, he came off whiny, and I love Bret, but this one is all on him for me. As ExTha said

"When your promoter asks you to do the job, that's the end of it"

Don't like it? Then walk, like Punk and Neville.

Punk and Neville didnt have creative control.

You don't give that to someone if you arent ready for them to exercise it. Even if you don't think Vince was wrong ON THAT DAY the entire situation was one of his own design in just so many ways.
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Eddv posted...

I sort of wonder if WWF still exists today without the screwjob.

That really was the catalyst of interest that got WWF off the mat and set their creative direction for the next...20 years.

WCW was gonna kill themselves no mattee what. Do you just think wrestling dies in North America? Does TNA still come and become the big dog?
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Well, thats sort of what I am getting at.

What if Vince Russo WCW never happens because Vince Russo was never notable for ever doing anything at all? Because WWF dying shortly thereafter kind of accomplishes that
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WCW might not have killed itself actually if Bischoff didn't get it in his head that he had to beat Vince even if he had to spend eight gajillion dollars to do it
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Eddv posted...

Well, thats sort of what I am getting at.

What if Vince Russo WCW never happens because Vince Russo was never notable for ever doing anything at all? Because WWF dying shortly thereafter kind of accomplishes that

Russo didn't kill WCW.... at least not without a ton of help.

WCW was still going to kill themselves with or without Russo. Go back to the Dungeon of Doom and Kevin Sullivan, this happened the same year as the NWO. Even during the NWO reign there was an amazing amount of stupid shot going on. The company was always going to die. Cause no one had a clue what they were doing.
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DeathChicken posted...

WCW might not have killed itself actually if Bischoff didn't get it in his head that he had to beat Vince even if he had to spend eight gajillion dollars to do it

But he had already spent that money by October 1997....
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CoffeeNinjaB8 posted...

"When your promoter asks you to do the job, that's the end of it"

having creative control is literally the opposite of "the end of it" though

that's what creative control is
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It's totally Vince's fault because Bret wasn't opposed to losing the belt. He just didn't want to do it then and there, and he didn't have to if Vince doesn't override Bret's ability to override.
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