Board 8 > Ace Attorney Discussion Topic, Part 3 - Eureka Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

Where sometimes the most magical thing of all...is the truth!

Standard spoiler warning: Any Ace Attorney game with an official English release is fair game for spoilers. Please mark spoilers for AAI2 and DGS.
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Transferring the overall playthrough numbers over here:

3-5 - 9:35:46
2-4 - 9:05:21
1-5 - 8:46:43
4-4 - 6:38:01
3-2 - 6:02:56
4-3 - 5:58:33
3-3 - 5:48:31
2-3 - 5:06:33
1-4 - 4:59:52
4-2 - 4:58:35
2-2 - 4:47:40
1-3 - 3:49:35
1-2 - 2:40:40
4-1 - 2:11:44
3-4 - 1:54:15
E1-1 - 1:44:51
3-1 - 1:43:09
2-1 - 1:15:57
4-0 - 1:09:44
1-1 - 0:33:35

"Days" by total length:

1. 3-5 day 2: 6:02:27
2. 2-4 day 2: 4:46:23
3. 2-4 day 1: 4:18:58
4. 1-5 day 3: 3:37:24
5. 4-3 day 2: 3:35:41
6. 3-5 day 1: 3:33:19
7. 3-3 day 2: 3:19:52
8. 4-4 day 2: 3:03:37
9. 3-2 day 1: 3:01:35
10. 3-2 day 2: 3:01:21
11. 1-5 day 2: 2:44:33
12. 2-3 day 1: 2:41:06
13. 4-2 day 1: 2:37:01
14. 3-3 day 1: 2:28:39
15. 2-3 day 2: 2:25:27
16. 2-2 day 2: 2:25:06
17. 1-5 day 1: 2:24:46
18. 4-4 day 1: 2:24:40
19. 4-3 day 1: 2:22:52
20. 2-2 day 1: 2:22:34
21. 4-2 day 2: 2:21:34
22. 1-4 day 3: 1:46:53
23. 1-4 day 1: 1:39:08
24. 1-3 day 2: 1:35:43
25. 1-4 day 2: 1:33:51
26. 1-2 day 1: 1:23:48
27. 1-2 day 2: 1:16:52
28. 1-3 day 1: 1:13:33
29. 1-3 day 3: 1:00:19

Trial length in-game totals:

1-5: 16 hours, 30 minutes
2-4: 14 hours, 38 minutes
1-4: 14 hours, 15 minutes
3-5: 11 hours, 34 minutes
1-3: 11 hours, 3 minutes
2-3: 11 hours
4-2: 10 hours, 35 minutes
4-3: 10 hours, 24 minutes
3-2: 9 hours, 59 minutes
3-3: 9 hours, 2 minutes
1-2: 8 hours, 48 minutes
2-2: 8 hours, 45 minutes
4-4: >7 hours, 50 minutes
4-1: 6 hours, 28 minutes
3-1: 5 hours, 16 minutes
1-1: 4 hours, 32 minutes
2-1: 4 hours, 16 minutes
3-4: >3 hours, 49 minutes
E1-1: 3 hours, 42 minutes
4-0: >1 hour, 37 minutes

Investigation days by length:

1. 3-5 day 2: 2:40:27
2. 2-4 day 2: 2:22:16
3. 2-4 day 1: 2:17:55
4. 4-4 day 2: 2:04:21
5. 3-2 day 1: 2:02:38
6. 3-5 day 1: 1:58:45
7. 3-3 day 2: 1:42:38
8. 3-2 day 2: 1:39:44
9. 2-3 day 1: 1:35:11
10. 4-3 day 2: 1:31:28
11. 4-2 day 1: 1:31:13
12. 3-3 day 1: 1:27:52
13. 2-2 day 1: 1:26:42
14. 1-5 day 2: 1:26:02
15. 1-5 day 3: 1:21:23
16. 4-3 day 1: 1:18:37
17. 2-3 day 2: 1:18:17
18. 4-2 day 2: 1:18:05
19. 2-2 day 2: 1:16:38
20. 4-4 day 1: 1:12:52
21. 1-5 day 1: 1:03:57
22. 1-4 day 2: 0:58:35
23. 1-3 day 2: 0:57:26
24. 1-4 day 1: 0:56:42
25. 1-2 day 1: 0:41:53
26. 1-4 day 3: 0:41:22
27. 1-3 day 1: 0:39:27
28. 1-2 day 2: 0:35:58
29. 1-3 day 3: 0:27:01

Trial days by length:

1. 3-5 day 2: 3:22:00
2. 2-4 day 2: 2:24:07
3. 1-5 day 3: 2:16:01
4. 4-1: 2:11:44
5. 4-3 day 2: 2:04:13
6. 2-4 day 1: 2:01:03
7. 3-4: 1:54:15
8. 3-1: 1:43:09
9. 3-3 day 2: 1:37:14
10. 3-5 day 1: 1:34:24
11. 3-2 day 2: 1:21:37
12. 1-5 day 1: 1:20:49
13. 1-5 day 2: 1:18:31
14. 2-1: 1:15:57
15. 4-4 day 1: 1:11:48
16. 4-0: 1:09:44
17. 2-2 day 2: 1:08:28
18. 2-3 day 2: 1:07:10
19. 2-3 day 1: 1:05:55
20. 4-2 day 1: 1:05:48
21. 1-4 day 3: 1:04:31
22. 4-3 day 1: 1:04:15
23. 4-2 day 2: 1:03:29
24. 3-3 day 1: 1:00:47
25. 4-4 day 2: 0:59:16
26. 3-2 day 1: 0:58:57
27. 2-2 day 1: 0:55:52
28. 1-4 day 1: 0:42:26
29. 1-2 day 1: 0:41:55
30. 1-2 day 2: 0:40:54
31. 1-3 day 2: 0:38:17
32. 1-4 day 2: 0:35:16
33. 1-3 day 1: 0:34:06
34. 1-1: 0:33:35
35. 1-3 day 3: 0:33:18
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Okay, I got the Dual Destinies artbook. There was an OT+AJ artbook out there, too, but reading the reviews, apparently it was pretty low on content aside from the art, which has already been widely disseminated on Court-Records and the AA Wiki, so I went with the DD one instead. I've bought a few artbooks before (Persona 3, Persona 4, and Persona 4 Arena), and they've usually got some pretty neat content! I've only read the first handful of pages so far, but they listed character profiles and it piqued my curiosity because they listed character heights.

Unfortunately, they listed them in centimeters so I had to convert them first (why), but I find these kind of general statistics neat, for some reason.

Tallest person in Dual Destinies: Aristotle Means (6'5")
Shortest person in Dual Destinies: Pearl Fey (4'6") - Not a typo!
Sneaky short person in Dual Destinies: Apollo Justice (5'5")
Sneaky average: Phoenix (5'9") and Edgeworth (5'10")
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oh man if there's one thing that's a definite fact, it's don't take heights and weights seriously. phoenix wright probably weighs like 104 pounds
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Oh, you definitely don't take that stuff seriously when it comes to SF2, because then you get Sagat being like 7'4" and only weighing 160 pounds...!

these guys aren't pro fighters though so I think you can take it with slightly more than a grain of salt
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I swear it's like people in Japan don't understand how weight works. Even Pokemon weights are nonsense almost all of the time.

Couple of weird tidbits from the character profiles:

--Damian Tenma enjoys pretending to be Tenma Taro because he's a pro wrestler and he's used to hamming it up.
--Robin Newman was originally supposed to be a cheerleader.
--They're well aware that sulky Starbuck is annoying, but he's supposed to be.
--Yamazaki thinks Herman Crab has the coolest character design in Dual Destinies.
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I won't rest until I've tagged ever suspicious looking nook and cranny.
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The heights for Phoenix, Edgeworth, and Apollo seem reasonable. I'd put Apollo more like at 5'7'', but then, I'd have Phoenix/Edgey more at like 6'0'', too.

Means does not strike me as that tall, and that's of course a ridiculous figure for Pearl, but she's described as being like that, too.

LeonhartFour posted...

--Damian Tenma enjoys pretending to be Tenma Taro because he's a pro wrestler and he's used to hamming it up.

this is great

LeonhartFour posted...

--Yamazaki thinks Herman Crab has the coolest character design in Dual Destinies.

it's pretty awesome - reminds me a bit of spike spiegal, come to think of it.
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Yeah, he kind of does have the Spike Spiegel messy afro look going on. His penguin mask was supposed to be reminiscent of medieval doctors, which is pretty neat.
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So instead of the vest, Phoenix was originally going to wear a light blue sweater that was hand-knitted by Trucy (no P on his chest though) and have some very slight but noticeable chin fuzz. It actually looks pretty cool!

Since Athena is brand new, they have a ton of rough sketches and designs for her that were never used, and some of them are hilarious. She looks like a cross between Ponco and Lisa Basil in one of them. She has a futuristic suit like Basil wears with hair antennae like a robot (oh, and her hair is blue, naturally). She would even have a big red visor she would bust out at certain points (presumably for the Mood Matrix). They have an animation where she puts her hands up next to her hair antennae, with the notation next to it, "Receiving signals." Also, Widget was apparently a very late addition. She was originally going to run the Mood Matrix with a tablet and stylus.

Apparently, the idea that Apollo would wear a jacket and have a patch over his eyes was pitched by the artist to the directors, and they were then tasked with coming up with the backstory reason for why he had them. One of the suggested ideas was that the jacket belonged to his father, who would be from Egypt, and the cloak would have those weird Egyptian eye symbols on the clasps. There was also supposed to be an "immoral female lawyer" (sounds like an episode from Futurama) who would be responsible for leading Apollo astray. They even have a rough sketch of her, but I guess Aura filled that role instead.

They have some Pearl sketches that are super adorable, including one where her pretzel hair buns hang down instead of up, and one where she has the Maya topknot and long hair.

Oh man, these rough sketches of Blackquill are amazing. In one of them, he looks like something straight out of Persona. He's got spiky green hair, headphones, and a long red scarf, and he's wearing a striped prison uniform. He was also apparently supposed to originally really love apples, and they had a few animations where he would spin them on his finger or crush them in his hand.
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he always looks like something out of Persona, actually! he'd fit right in with the little I've seen of P5.
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He'd probably fit in with the cast of P5 with his current design, yeah, but this one design almost looked like a cross between the P3 protagonist and Pharos.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Apparently, the idea that Apollo would wear a jacket and have a patch over his eyes was pitched by the artist to the directors, and they were then tasked with coming up with the backstory reason for why he had them. One of the suggested ideas was that the jacket belonged to his father, who would be from Egypt, and the cloak would have those weird Egyptian eye symbols on the clasps.

This is an interesting detail, since it suggests a couple of things. One, that the Khura'in thing wasn't as out of left field as we thought - they had a similar idea like this for Apollo's backstory before AA5. Two, that they definitely came up with the backstory for Apollo's dad in AA6 and didn't originally know what they were going to do with it.

Those play-lengths are interesting. The 3rd day of 1-3 is the shortest trial day, huh? (granted, the other trials in AA1 aren't much longer) The original AA1 was only 12 hours long (excluding 1-5). AA2, meanwhile, was 20 hours long. AA3 is 25 hours long, more than twice the length of AA1.

Hate to break it to you, Leonhart, but Investigation ~ In the Midst 2002 does play at least once when speaking with Adrianne Andrews.
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Yeah, the original AA1 before 1-5 is easily the shortest game so far. 1-4 day 3 is the only trial day that comes in over an hour, and just barely. Only three trial days in the rest of the series so far come in under an hour. All of the investigation days come in under an hour, but none of the others do. It's a brisk game!
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The only thing that's been truly surprising to me so far has been 3-5 > 2-4 > 1-5. I'd have guessed the reverse of that. I'm a little surprised by 3-2's length as well.
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Yeah, I definitely wouldn't have pegged 3-2 and 4-3 as the longest non-epic cases thus far.
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I'm kinda surprised at how bad you guys are at spitballing these. I hate to be that guy, but 3-2 and 4-3 have always seemed super long to me,

...but I think it's just that I really don't like those cases that much, especially 3-2 compared to others' expectations. I probably think E2-3 is way longer than it really is too.
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I feel like a lot of it is perception based on how much you like it. A case you don't like probably feels longer than it actually is a lot of the time because you're just waiting for it to end, while a case you enjoy seems to go by faster because you're enjoying it and not worrying about how long it is.

like E2-2 probably isn't as long as it feels like but man did it drag on forever when I was playing it

4-3's length surprised me because I initially thought AJ had a shot at being the shortest game in the series, and it didn't really feel like 4-2 and 4-3 were that beefy. Turns out it probably still will be the shortest game, but 4-3 still ended up being pretty long! It's 4-4 being shorter than the average epic case that cut down AJ's overall run time.
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I found 3-2's investigations to be painfully long on replay. That case drags.

Well, the first investigation day is really long, but they do an awful lot of "in case you missed it" stuff with the main characters there, too. There's a bunch of exposition about Maya, Pearl, Kurain, etc. at the beginning of 3-2. It's currently a top 5 investigation day in terms of length, so yeah, it's loaded. It balances out by 3-2 day 1 being the second shortest non-PW1 trial day, but still.
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I'm basically a game behind on my replays right now, but something I found really weird about 3-2 is how little the details of the murder actually matter. It's one of a very few cases in the series without a murder weapon (strangely enough, 3-4 also lacks one), and it feels like the details of what happened at KB Security don't really matter - it mostly just comes down to proving that the photo showing Atmey at the scene of the theft is a fake, which ultimately comes down to 'oh the timestamp in the photo doesn't say what day it was.' There's some very clever things that 3-2 does with regards to the alibi plot and the blackmail letters but it's strangely devoid of your normal AA trappings of how was the murder carried out, how did the killer get away, etc kind of contradictions that you go through. It's a very different case but it kind of didn't work for me. The investigations are long, but it doesn't feel like they reveal all that many things that become relevant later. A shocking amount of it is spent to talking with Larry about almost nothing, too - it is actually surprising in retrospect how much of that case he's in.

I'm honestly not sure why people like 3-2. I think it's two things:

- the swerve
- Luke Atmey?

the plot doesn't feel very interesting, I'm not an Atmey guy and the murder feels like it has a ton of holes. like you kinda backpedal into it without any details and then you press on something the guy shouldn't know and that's that. everything else is poorly paced.
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Yeah, 3-2 is weird about that. 3-4 at least tells you that Valerie was stabbed in the back with a knife, and it was "stuck in there nice and firm," a detail I've always liked because it tells you just how much Dahlia hated her for trying to do what she did. They deliberately try to make Bullard a completely irrelevant victim by Maya not even being able to get his name right most of the time. It's all about busting Atmey's alibi.

I like 3-2 because of its unique nature though, but I get why it's a little divisive.
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I like Ron and Atmey a lot. Ron is a fantastic one-off defendant. 3-2 is very character-driven, perhaps moreso than any non-epic case, so if you don't care about those two, you probably won't like the case. You've gotta be invested in at least one of them because it's all about Ron and Atmey and their crazy conniving.
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transience posted...

I'm honestly not sure why people like 3-2. I think it's two things:

- the swerve
- Luke Atmey?

the plot doesn't feel very interesting, I'm not an Atmey guy and the murder feels like it has a ton of holes. like you kinda backpedal into it without any details and then you press on something the guy shouldn't know and that's that. everything else is poorly paced.

I kind of agree with you, although I do appreciate 3-2's attempt to do something different and I think a couple of the things it did it did very well. (Even if there are holes in it, Atmey's alibi plot is very cool.) It's a weird case.

My reactions to AA2 and AA3 were almost identical actually. I soured on 2-2 and 3-2 a bit because I realized I only remembered the peaks of those cases but failed to notice that the actual guts of the cases were lacking, whereas 2-3 and 3-3's highs weren't as high but they had more well-thought-out nuts and bolts to the whole thing. (2-3 was especially surprising in that regard. The flying-bust-and-cape thing was silly but other than that the second trial day is really solidly put together in a way that some trial days fail to do)

I'll go one step further

I think it's crazy that Leon likes 3-2 so much but thinks 4-2 day 1 investigation is the worst in the series

edit: I get it if the reason is '3-2 did it first', but not for any qualitative reason!
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because perhaps the best thing about 4-2's first investigation day is the completely random Hotti cameo (but I do really like Hotti)

I love the Phoenix/Maya/Pearl investigation trio, too, because this is the only time we get it.
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3-2 day 1 investigation is among my least favorite segments. 3-2 picks up a lot on day 2, but day 1 is a slog. They should have spent less time setting up the urn theft and more time on day 2 murder details in my opinion.

I still think it's WAY better than 4-2 day 1 investigation though.

Although yes Phoenix/Maya/Pearl saves it a bit.

I don't have a problem with admitting 3-2's got its share of flaws, but the Sacred Urn stuff is at least an actual crime with a phantom thief! It's not running random errands until you coincidentally stumble upon a murder while Hobonix yanks your chain and you talk to a bunch of not very likable people. Eldoon is good, but not 'til day 2. Same with Ema and BIG WINS. Alita doesn't matter until trial day 2.
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yeah I think 3-2's investigation is better too. just saying, 4-2's got the same general structure as 3-2 but gets none of the credit, so it's got to be that people like the content of 3-2 as well. and I just don't see it - what's there is pretty thin. you've got a subpar Adrian, Desiree is whatevs, and Atmey. the details are lacking. I guess maybe the Pearl/Maya thing but I actually see it as being superfluous because Pearl is really only good as a Maya replacement. 2-2, 2-4 and 3-5 are where she shines. 2-3 and 3-2? not my jam really.
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Pearl's only in 2-3 for the intro! She doesn't actually stick around for the murder.

Desiree is pretty whatever, but I loved the Adrian cameo. Perhaps even more than the Hotti cameo...!
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really? I thought it took away from her 2-4 role. she's all frazzled when her appeal in 2-4 was how cool and collected she was. you've seen through the facade, yeah, but I just didn't like her being clumsy and goofy. didn't fit her character, I don't think.
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hmm, is 3-2 the only case where Pearl and Maya are together for any significant time at all? I think it is. goes to show how much of a replacement Pearl is. I like Pearl less and less the more that time goes on. actually, I like her just fine but she just seems like wasted space. Trucy, Kay, Athena - all the assistants in the series feel more relevant than she is.
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I like happy and mildly frazzled Adrian in day 1 but day 2's OH MY GOD I AM SUCH A KLUTZ Adrian is weird to me, if that makes sense

I was just glad to see her happy and successful. Adrian smiling at the end of 2-4 is one of that case's most understated good moments. She has a lot of fun optional dialogue, too. Her role in the case is whatever, but I was just happy to see her again.

you could argue that her being clumsy was already present in her character in 2-4 because she did accidentally knock the vase onto the guitar case as she was trying to cover everything up but it's a bit of a stretch
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transience posted...

hmm, is 3-2 the only case where Pearl and Maya are together for any significant time at all? I think it is. goes to show how much of a replacement Pearl is. I like Pearl less and less the more that time goes on. actually, I like her just fine but she just seems like wasted space. Trucy, Kay, Athena - all the assistants in the series feel more relevant than she is.

Yeah, they're barely together in 2-2, 2-3, and 2-4. They're together a bit more in 3-5 before the crime happens, but not much. They're only together during the credits in SoJ.

I'll always love Pearl though. She can continue to make bit cameos for the rest of time, and I'll be fine with it. The other assistants feel more relevant because that's what they're supposed to be. Pearl is a side character and Morgan Fey's plot device who occasionally masquerades as an assistant.
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time for Phoenix to defend Pearl
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it's weird to think of Pearl as a side character when she's been in 8 cases. only a handful of characters can claim that. the only other characters that I would consider 'side characters' with that many showings are.. Larry at 7, Lotta at 5, and.. maybe Winston Payne? not many.
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we could have Athena defend Pearl in a supposed channeling gone wrong and they can have their own version of 2-2 together

or Pearl could channel Mia and have Mia defend her in a weird plot twist in Khura'in or something

Pearl being a defendant would be weird though. I've never even considered that as a possibility until you just mentioned it!
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Well, she kinda is a side character when you think about it. 2-4 and 3-2 are the only cases where she really has significant screen time, and she's mostly just there in 3-2 for fun (and partially as a prelude for 3-5 as they use her as a vector to introduce Morgan and all the Kurain stuff). She's more of a plot device than anything else in 2-2 and 3-5.
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So no soft reset for the Trilogy on 3DS?

Lame :(
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no, I agree with you. I've just never thought of her that way. I mean, she is a mainline Fey with a ton of screen time. well, compared to other side characters anyway.

as for a plot device.. you can pretty easily argue that every Fey is a plot device.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

So no soft reset for the Trilogy on 3DS?

Lame :(

Does L+R+Start+Select work?

Quick Google search suggests that for Pokemon, but I dunno if it works for other stuff!
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You could probably characterize Pearl as a "minor major character." Simply the fact that she exists is what makes her so important moreso than the role she plays most of the time.

Just about every Fey gets used as a plot device in some way though, you're right about that.
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home, x, a, relaunch!
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LeonhartFour posted...

Does L+R+Start+Select work?

Quick Google search suggests that for Pokemon, but I dunno if it works for other stuff!

Nope. That works on DS games but not for the Trilogy.

transcience posted...

home, x, a, relaunch!

Yeah that's probably what I'll have to do... it's pretty slow, though.
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weird things to think about

Pearl in AA7 will be as old as Maya was in T&T

Maya now is older than Phoenix ever was in the OT

also weird is that I was younger than PW1 Phoenix when I first played these (and I was the same age as Apollo when AJ came out) and now I'm in the Hobonix years in terms of age

it was kind of neat replaying those games when I was the same age as him for those three years

in three more years I can be DD Phoenix

actually on Saturday I'll be as old as Gumshoe was in PW1

man my birthday is going to suck this year

next year AJ will be ten years old

don't mind me I'm just rambling now
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