Current Events > If existential fear won't get you to vote against Trump, then nothing will.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Umbreon posted...

Hypothetically speaking, let's say Hitler claimed out of Hell onto Earth. He wants to continue where he left off before he did the world a favor and paint the walls with his brains.

Someone gives you a huge ass gun and tells you to shoot Demon Hitler in his bitch face.

Do you shoot him? Are you like "Fuck yeah, let's send Hitler back to Hell!"

.... or do you need more motivation? For some reason.

I'd love to show him some gay artist that got into art school.

havean776 posted...

I'd love to show him some gay artist that got into art school.

And then send him back to Hell.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80756309#12

@FortuneCookie

How's that for motivation? Conservative VP hopeful shot and killed a puppy because she didn't think she could re-home it. Or is literal puppy slaughter not enough motivation?

Help me out here because if voting against fascism isn't enough maybe we can play to your empathy with pets

Cemith posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80756309#12

@FortuneCookie

How's that for motivation? Conservative VP hopeful shot and killed a puppy because she didn't think she could re-home it. Or is literal puppy slaughter not enough motivation?

Help me out here because if voting against fascism isn't enough maybe we can play to your empathy with pets

To follow up on this, let's consider why Noem is telling this particular story at this time.

She is doing it as part of her bid to be Trump's VP pick -- one psychopath calling out to another.

Umbreon posted...

Hypothetically speaking, let's say Hitler clawed out of Hell onto Earth. He wants to continue where he left off before he did the world a favor and painted the walls with his brains.

Someone gives you a huge ass gun and tells you to shoot Demon Hitler in his bitch face.

Do you shoot him? Are you like "Fuck yeah, let's send Hitler back to Hell!"

.... or do you need more motivation? For some reason.

I'd pull up gay hitler on my phone and show it to him just before pulling the trigger. And, if I could press a button today, and Trump lost the election guaranteed in November, I'd press it.

But that's not how any of this works. There's a good chance, no matter what any of us vote for that Trump will win - or another good chance, regardless of whether any of us on this entire website voted, that Biden would still win.

EPR-radar posted...

To follow up on this, let's consider why Noem is telling this particular story at this time.

She is doing it as part of her bid to be Trump's VP pick -- one psychopath calling out to another.

It's like echolocation for assholes

Apparently a history of animal cruelty is commonly found in serial killers. Openly bragging about it probably isn't a good sign either.

Cemith posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80756309#12

@FortuneCookie

How's that for motivation? Conservative VP hopeful shot and killed a puppy because she didn't think she could re-home it. Or is literal puppy slaughter not enough motivation?

Help me out here because if voting against fascism isn't enough maybe we can play to your empathy with pets

I'm not going to let a dog outrank a Palestinian human being.

If Biden wants my vote, he can publicly announce that we will not be sending funds or troops to help Israel's government in their ethnic cleansing.

FortuneCookie posted...

I'm not going to let a dog outrank a Palestinian human being.

If Biden wants my vote, he can publicly announce that we will not be sending funds or troops to help Israel's government in their ethnic cleansing.

But you'll let it outrank LGBT humans?

Help me out of here brother. Also, safe to say that's a "no" then? Killing of puppies isn't a place where you can draw a line?

Cool.

Let me make it clear I don't *want* the GOP to win.

Among the US government's actions of the 20th century, I think the single-biggest disgrace is the Japanese interment during World War II. That does not mean that I want to rewrite the history books and give the victory to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

Umbreon posted...

I'm in fucking South Carolina and I'll still be voting blue. What's your excuse nek?

Where? I happen to be in Sumter myself.

FortuneCookie posted...

Let me make it clear I don't *want* the GOP to win.

But you'll also do literally nothing to prevent it so the result is the same either way.

Cemith posted...

But you'll let it outrank LGBT humans?

Help me out of here brother. Also, safe to say that's a "no" then? Killing of puppies isn't a place where you can draw a line?

Cool.

I don't know what to say to this post. I think you misread me.

I'm not letting the puppy appeal sway my decision one way or another. If you're pitting quality of human life against quality of human life, I'm sorry, but I can't treat the children of Palestine as sacrificial lambs to protect people in America.

Whatever is going to happen is going to happen and my vote isn't going to change that. If we're facing fascism, they're not going to walk away because they lose a vote anyway. They've tried to overturn democracy once already and, as a party, they've grown bolder in the years since.

Cemith posted...

But you'll also do literally nothing to prevent it so the result is the same either way.

I'm not doing anything to prevent Biden's win.

I'm pretty sure that, if a championship match ends in a draw, the champion retains the belt. If a non-vote is a vote-by-default, wouldn't it be a vote for the sitting president because I'm not voting for change?

FortuneCookie posted...

Let me make it clear I don't *want* the GOP to win.

Then you have one option, and that's to vote against them.

Anything else makes your statement contradictory.

There are absolutely atrocities that our government has committed. No argument there. I'm sure the majority of Americans are also against the wars going on.

But if you don't want the GOP to win, you need to vote against them. If you intend to, sweet. We can talk about how our government needs to be better.

But if you're withdrawing your vote then... nothing you say holds relevance.

EPR-radar posted...

I actually see it the opposite way around. Hope and inspiration is great when it happens, but it is fickle and it's a rare talent for candidates to actually be good at campaigning on it (and delivering on hope and change is even more difficult, given the reality of the Republican menace).

What is it going to take to peacefully defeat the GOP and get back to something resembling normal politics in the US? The only answer I can see is the GOP consistently losing in national elections, to the point where it really does have to reform or die.

Which is the easier sales job?

A) running on hope and change for 12+ years with little/no actual progress to show for it because the GOP is still strong enough to block progress at least that long, or

B) trying to grow a solid D base for 12+ years that understands that the highest priority is opposing the GOP menace every November, in every election, at every level, and that all hope of future progress is contingent on first dealing with the Republican menace? Sure, it looks like running only on "Republicans are awful", but that is the truth. It is also true that Republicans have a lot of power, and it's going to take a long, hard campaign to do something about that.

I thoroughly disagree. Hope doesn't just come from one candidate or focusing exclusively on electoral politics. It comes from an orientation towards and understanding of politics that then drives your communications, policy, electoral strategy etc.

People develop hope when they think they can influence their futures in a meaningful way. It comes from encouraging people to think and take action in democratic ways. And promising that you'll be the avatar of that already existing movement. That last part is what FDR did, it's what Reagan did, it's what Trump means to his people. It comes from the bottom up and the promises, expectations of effort from the people, and results all have to match up.

You can't match all the forces, resources, and organization of capital, religion, militarism, racism, sexism, etc with "vote every 2-4 years for candidates that don't, won't, and can't even promise to change or fix anything you really care about."

To match those forces, you need deeply organized forces of your own that cut across all potential divides, but organizations of that nature will not be easy to control and manage from above and will make big demands, and if those demands aren't met, they'll become dispirited and disorganized again. The only solid basis for consistent positive results in electoral politics is a party built on that basis and focused on supporting, amplifying, and being led by those organizations.

Instead, the Democrats just want individuals and organizations that they have no obligations to, that expect nothing from them, but that dutifully vote in huge numbers regardless of how well or poorly the party is doing at addressing people's problems.

What people in topics like this try to sell is that "no your definitely life won't improve in any meaningful way if you do X, but in some abstract way that you may not actually fathom, it'll get much worse if you don't do X or instead do Y."

That'll work on some, but it has a variety of different effects. It produces positive anger, negative anger, disbelief, indifference, apathy, blackpilling, suspicion. Only one of those is useful for Democrats.

"There's no point in voting against fascism because it will just ignore elections and take over eventually anyway."

Not even motherfucking Hitler took over Germaby by force. He campaigned, gave big speeches, convinced a ton of people that the current government is ineffective and that he can fix things.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I don't know the extent of your fight so far. Perhaps you have.

FortuneCookie posted...

I don't know what to say to this post. I think you misread me.

Nope, it's been pretty clear to the rest of us.

FortuneCookie posted...

I'm not letting the puppy appeal sway my decision one way or another

So conservative VP's gunning down healthy dogs isn't a reason to vote against them. Got it.

FortuneCookie posted...

If you're pitting quality of human life against quality of human life, I'm sorry, but I can't treat the children of Palestine as sacrificial lambs to protect people in America.

Let's do some math here, shall we?

Biden - Can be talked out of Gaza with continuous pressures. And shows signs of change, given the whole "You're on your own against Iran" thing.

Trump - Will build a parking lot over Palestinians blood and guts.

Now which one do you think will be better for Gaza, huh? Really think about it.

Also, let's not even mention that Gaza isn't the only single issue. Can we not talk about the student loan erasure? Infrastructure? Greener energy? All of that is still not enough?

You may have convinced yourself that you care about Palestine, but you won't convince anyone else when you're complacent in a fascist takeover. I don't swallow that "I care about Gaza" crap when you won't do the bare minimum to prevent this happening domestically.

Whatever is going to happen is going to happen and my vote isn't going to change that. If we're facing fascism, they're not going to walk away because they lose a vote anyway. They've tried to overturn democracy once already and, as a party, they've grown bolder in the years since.

How do you think they overturned Roe V Wade? They did it by installing Trump's yuppies into positions of power. That's literally how it begins. Eventually, in the conservative hopeful Project 2025, his yes men will be everywhere and Trump will be able to "legally" become a dictator.

But hey if 1/6 doesn't bother you "because they'll just try again" then maybe consider leaving the country because you're not helpful to anyone here.

Grown adults that don't have a smidge of pragmatism in their whole bodies should not be coddled or "appealed to". Either you do the right thing, or you do the wrong thing. Inaction is a choice.

Cemith posted...

Let's do some math here, shall we?

I don't weigh lives in terms of mathematics. If I push one button and it kills one innocent person or I push the other button and it ends all life on Earth, it's the same to me.

I don't want any innocent blood on my hands. If I have to align myself with genocide to prevent greater genocide, I'll sit back and let what happen will.

Fuck the Greater Good.
I can't make that any plainer. I will die and let the whole fucking world die before I agree to human sacrifice in the name of numbers or consequences.

I could not have made the shot that blew up the Death Star because I would know in my heart that there would have been prisoners or personnel aboard that ship that had nothing to do with any of the evils that were going on. I couldn't sink a naval ship in a time of war because, to me, the cook has nothing to do with the fighting that's going on.

If you think that refusing to commit murder makes me a murderer because it leads to a greater number of deaths, go on and think that way. You can't and won't change how I feel.

FortuneCookie posted...

I don't weigh lives in terms of mathematics. If I push one button and it kills one innocent person or I push the other button and it ends all life on Earth, it's the same to me.

I don't want any innocent blood on my hands. If I have to align myself with genocide to prevent greater genocide, I'll sit back and let what happen will.

Fuck the Greater Good.
I can't make that any plainer. I will die and let the whole fucking world die before I agree to human sacrifice in the name of numbers or consequences.

You're willing to let the world die in order to maintain your moral code.

That isn't a virtue. Quite the opposite in fact.

Say you're tied up in a chair. Someone is slowly approaching you with a Chainsaw with the intention of brutally murdering you.

I'm also in the room. I have a gun and can shoot the man with the Chainsaw dead no problem.

Should I save you? Yes or no?

But here's a thought:

If the vote is this important, and it's all about the numbers, stop wasting your time trying to get me to vote. You could convince a dozen non-voters before you could convince me. That's 11 more votes for the greater good.

I don't believe in collective consciousness. I don't think my vote would have a butterfly effect and subconsciously lead others to get up and vote. My vote is one blue vote in a red state. It's like pissing into the ocean and expecting it to turn the sea yellow.

Cool. So the only hill you choose to stand on is the one that will be fucking nuked by your complacency.

I'm so glad you have such rigorous morals.

I hope it's worth it.

Your stance makes no sense and you willingly refuse to see otherwise. Please never grandstand about Gaza again because others will call you out on it.

Umbreon posted...

You're willing to let the world die in order to maintain your moral code.

That isn't a virtue. Quite the opposite in fact.

Say you're tied up in a chair. Someone is slowly approaching you with a Chainsaw with the intention of brutally murdering you.

I'm also in the room. I have a gun and can shoot the man with the Chainsaw dead no problem.

Should I save you? Yes or no?

If it's just him, I would appreciate if you shot the chainsaw maniac to save me

But if that man is holding an infant, and you can't shoot him without killing the baby, you should absolutely let him kill me rather than cause the death of the child.

No baby. It's just you.

But I'm a pacifist. So I'll let the Chainsaw man kill you. Is that okay?

@Payzmaykr

No one caters to non voters. There's a reason you don't see Presidents give a shit about the notorious youth vote typically.

"I don't care enough to vote, but you can be sure I care enough to explain at length why I don't care enough to vote."
- An intelligent person (?)

Umbreon posted...

No baby. It's just you.

But I'm a pacifist. So I'll let the Chainsaw man kill you. Is that okay?

It would be of cold comfort to me if you refused to save my life because your moral compass wouldn't allow you to shoot the man who intended to murder me. But I do baseline respect that kind of conviction.

Somehow, I don't see the people of Palestine as collectively being compared to a man with a chainsaw and murderous intent.

Deej posted...

"I don't care enough to vote, but you can be sure I care enough to explain at length why I don't care enough to vote."
- An intelligent person (?)

I cared enough to vote against Trump in 2016 and 2020. If Biden were to tell Netanyahu to fuck off, I would gladly vote against Trump in 2024 as well.

But, no. I'm not going to vote for anyone who is pro-genocide. It doesn't matter that the other side wants to kill more people.

FortuneCookie posted...

It would be of cold comfort to me if you refused to save my life because your moral compass wouldn't allow you to shoot the man who intended to murder me. But I do baseline respect that kind of conviction.

Somehow, I don't see the people of Palestine as collectively being compared to a man with a chainsaw and murderous intent.

Shoot the chainsaw out of his hand!

I don't remember voting for Netanyahu

FortuneCookie posted...

It would be of cold comfort to me if you refused to save my life because your moral compass wouldn't allow you to shoot the man who intended to murder me. But I do baseline respect that kind of conviction.

Okay, so overall you probably wouldn't especially like it if I let you die.

One more scenario.

What if you, a bunch of babies, your family and other loved ones were tied up as well. Chainsaw has plenty enough gas to go through all of you. Again, I can choose to stop this madman if I want to.

But I'm pacifist. I don't like killing or seeing people die.

I'd need to kill the man to stop him from doing unspeakable things.

Should I? Yes or No?

(The man with the Chainsaw is in no way related to the current war going on. He's just a psychopath who enjoys murder)

FortuneCookie, I just want to say that I, as a brown/Muslim person, absolutely do not believe you care a single iota about Gaza. So please, shut the fuck up.

Holy_Cloud105 posted...

FortuneCookie, I just want to say that I, as a brown/Muslim person, absolutely do not believe you care a single iota about Gaza. So please, shut the fuck up.

Yes, yes, yes.
Nobody actually cares about what's going on. They just want an excuse to not vote for Biden.

But why did I vote for Hillary in 2016 and Biden in 2020 if I'm a conservative? Why did I spend so much time of my Friday off in online discussion if I'm too lazy to wait in line for half an hour to vote?

I'm sorry. It doesn't really add up. Either I'm a colossal troll who will spend all day in needless debate or I genuinely do not wish to vote for a man who supports genocide.

Personally I see my vote as being for harm minimization and not my enthusiastic support for a candidate, but not everyone does and a lot of people itt seem to be thinking that the trolley problem has been "morally decided".

Yeah, you'll abstain from voting for the person that could potentially be reasoned with and advocates for a two state solution so the person who wants to actually kill every Muslim person on the planet wins. Got it. You've also already made it abundantly clear you only care about yourself in this topic.

FortuneCookie posted...

But why did I vote for Hillary in 2016 and Biden in 2020 if I'm a conservative?

Making decent decisions 4 and 8 years ago do not absolve you of not doing the same thing this year. I held the door open for someone this morning, doesn't mean I get to punch someone in the face tonight.

You are either against the rise in fascism, or you are complacent and culpable.

FortuneCookie posted...

But here's a thought:

If the vote is this important, and it's all about the numbers, stop wasting your time trying to get me to vote. You could convince a dozen non-voters before you could convince me. That's 11 more votes for the greater good.

I don't believe in collective consciousness. I don't think my vote would have a butterfly effect and subconsciously lead others to get up and vote. My vote is one blue vote in a red state. It's like pissing into the ocean and expecting it to turn the sea yellow.

I don't want your goddamn vote. I want you to shut up about not voting to reduce the amount of defeatist GOP-serving drivel out there.

So, I've made this point before, this kind of rhetoric is useless at best, and counter productive at worst.

At this point, anyone who would be swayed by this kind of fear based emotional appeal already has been. There is no one who actually believes that Trump being elected president means he personally will be sneaking into you bedroom to shoot you in your sleep and isn't committed to voting against him.

That leaves the people who don't believe that. They have already heard this "Trump will kill you" spiel and, for what ever reason, it bounced off.

Continuing the same line of provably ineffective argumentation is a waste of everyone's time. Perhaps some more reason based arguments will have a better effect?

Deej posted...

"I don't care enough to vote, but you can be sure I care enough to explain at length why I don't care enough to vote."
- An intelligent person (?)

A Republican or a useful idiot for Republicans. Those are the only options.

Cemith posted...

Making decent decisions 4 and 8 years ago do not absolve you of not doing the same thing this year. I held the door open for someone this morning, doesn't mean I get to punch someone in the face tonight.

You are either against the rise in fascism, or you are complacent and culpable.

I wish y'all took this attitude and channeled it towards things that would actually help save/revive democracy instead of badgering holdouts online. Do something to hold the President accountable so he gets more votes, go start a democratic union, go protest, organize a boycott, organize a political education or study group, gather signatures for an initiative or recall, picket, give a speech, DO something, anything.

Don't just tell people to vote and call it a day, do something effective that sparks democracy and makes the world better in the meantime, something that makes nonvoting or voting Republican unthinkable. That would be fighting fascism. Many of the people who talk about fascism the most don't react like they think fascism is coming. If you did, you'd be learning to shoot and organizing your community.

Daremo posted...

Perhaps some more reason based arguments will have a better effect?

It is a reason based argument to point out that Republicans are a menace precisely because they are scapegoating minorities and taking peoples' civil and human rights away.

FFS, nobody is even bothering to talk about all the other awful Republican policy positions these days.

deoxxys posted...

Existential dread
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/b/b1629c28.jpg

This but orange

Mmm yes Hastur

legendary_zell posted...

I wish y'all took this attitude and channeled it towards things that would actually help save/revive democracy instead of badgering holdouts online. Do something to hold the President accountable so he gets more votes, go start a democratic union, go protest, organize a boycott, organize a political education or study group, gather signatures for an initiative or recall, picket, give a speech, DO something, anything.

Do you think nobody here does that?

legendary_zell posted...

Don't just tell people to vote and call it a day, do something effective that sparks democracy

Telling people to vote against fascism isn't helpful?

You said a bunch of shit that means nothing.

Daremo posted...

Perhaps some more reason based arguments will have a better effect?

Here's a reason based argument.

Trump won in 2016 and installed three lifetime appointees and now girls that have been raped have to travel state lines to get a rape baby aborted.

I'm sorry if you think this is fearmongering.
I don't call it fearmongering if someone tells me to leave a building that's on fire. That's just common sense.

Cemith posted...

girls that have been raped have to travel state lines to get a rape baby aborted.

And then get arrested.

Umbreon posted...

Okay, so overall you probably wouldn't especially like it if I let you die.

One more scenario.

What if you, a bunch of babies, your family and other loved ones were tied up as well. Chainsaw has plenty enough gas to go through all of you. Again, I can choose to stop this madman if I want to.

But I'm pacifist. I don't like killing or seeing people die.

I'd need to kill the man to stop him from doing unspeakable things.

Should I? Yes or No?

(The man with the Chainsaw is in no way related to the current war going on. He's just a psychopath who enjoys murder)

Chainsaw man is getting ready to start killing.