Current Events > If existential fear won't get you to vote against Trump, then nothing will.

(+) Yeah! (+)

nekrodev posted...

Among others, that it won't make a difference. I'm also in South Carolina.

Cool. So vote anyway. What could you possibly lose?

nekrodev posted...

Statistically, so is being upset at people who aren't voting in most states.

I'm only popping up cuz this is basically a continuation of stuff from the other thread from yesterday, but, I still can't believe this doesn't make sense to people. If you're in a solid red or solid blue state, which is most of the states, it's basically a statistical impossibility that your vote could matter.

Again, just using my state - which is solid red, up 10-15% on average for Republicans for the last 50+ years. You would need to sway 300k+ Republicans and Independents to switch, or convince at least that many NEW voters to vote Dem. That's literally not going to happen w/o major demographic shifts (ie old people dying).

I'll take being called lazy or apathetic or whatever, but to act like we are somehow actively contributing negatively is just wrong and silly.

It doesn't affect THIS election but it affects FUTURE elections and I'll explain why. The political parties dedicate campaign financing to different states based on the outlook or probability it will make a difference. Over time, if a state shifts colors a bit, the party will dedicate more funds there to continue that push. So slowly over time even a red state (for example, Georgia from years ago) can eventually become less red. Then purple, then even blue. But that only matters if the parties see that votes in the state are changing. So while you may not flip one individual election, it will help "shift" the perception of the state and allow future people in the state more confidence to vote the different way. Your vote IS being counted and people ARE paying attention to the numbers. But if they see the same ratios all the time, then yeah they won't change strategy. If they see numbers shift 2%, 5%, 8% election over election, you bet your ass they will run more door to door campaigns and commercials in a shifting state.

Do not try to use game theory to rationalize not voting. Just vote for the candidate you think would be better and leave it at that. That is how democracy is designed to function - with an assumption that many, many people participate. When people stop participating, that's when you get ruling fringe groups and other crazy shit that harms the country.

Umbreon posted...

Cool. So vote anyway. What could you possibly lose?

I said, among others. Also, it's a waste of time.

SilvosForever posted...

It doesn't affect THIS election but it affects FUTURE elections and I'll explain why. The political parties dedicate campaign financing to different states based on the outlook or probability it will make a difference. Over time, if a state shifts colors a bit, the party will dedicate more funds there to continue that push. So slowly over time even a red state (for example, Georgia from years ago) can eventually become less red. Then purple, then even blue. But that only matters if the parties see that votes in the state are changing. So while you may not flip one individual election, it will help "shift" the perception of the state and allow future people in the state more confidence to vote the different way. Your vote IS being counted and people ARE paying attention to the numbers. But if they see the same ratios all the time, then yeah they won't change strategy. If they see numbers shift 2%, 5%, 8% election over election, you bet your ass they will run more door to door campaigns and commercials in a shifting state.

Do not try to use game theory to rationalize not voting. Just vote for the candidate you think would be better and leave it at that. That is how democracy is designed to function - with an assumption that many, many people participate. When people stop participating, that's when you get ruling fringe groups and other crazy shit that harms the country.

My reasons aren't solely the numbers, but that is a big part of it. Future elections will be handled by demographic shifts, much more than me, personally, going to vote against Trump.

nekrodev posted...

I said, among others. Also, it's a waste of time.

My reasons aren't solely the numbers, but that is a big part of it. Future elections will be handled by demographic shifts, much more than me, personally, going to vote against Trump.

Sure but your line of reasoning applies to millions of people, and if they all make the same decision as you do, for the same reasoning, then our democracy is worse for it.

It's like a cell going cancerous. Yeah, maybe one individual cell won't make you sick. But if millions do you've got a problem. It's a symptom of a trend that's not good.

Ultimately, you have to be the change you want to see in the world. If I give you a lever you can pull to make the world 0.00000000001% a nicer place or 0.00000000001% a worse place, and you choose to just not pull it at all - it's the same idea here.

If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. Ultimately that choice is just leaving donating the voice you had to other people, and letting other people determine your fate for you. It's pretty much the only voice in governance the average person get, and people fought and died for the chance while most people aren't even paying attention.

It's kind of a sad situation really. I'm sorry you feel like you don't matter. But it's a self-fulfilling prophecy if you could have done something but didn't.

DrizztLink posted...

The rights of tens of millions of people are on the line and you refuse to do anything unless maybe they toss a little cash your way.

So yes, you proved my point. Reconsider your opinion.

What point? That I hold that much power/my personal vote will decide if millions lose their rights or not? If thats the case and your point, whats a dozen donuts to someone that has the power to change history? I know its illegal to bribe now, but voting should have incentives for ppl to go out and vote.

When I have a day off and my manager needs me to come in, hell ask me and offer me lunch. If it wasnt for the lunch, I wouldnt have gone in, lol. Its that simple really. If you need something from me, I need something from you.

I admire your dedication to proving my point.

Are human rights a good enough bribe for you shy?

tankboy posted...

Okay, now we're veering into Jews-Control-the-World Anti-Semitic conspiracy territory...

See, if you take an anti-Semitic theory and replace Jew with Zionist it becomes okay./s

shyguybry posted...

What point? That I hold that much power/my personal vote will decide if millions lose their rights or not? If thats the case and your point, whats a dozen donuts to someone that has the power to change history? I know its illegal to bribe now, but voting should have incentives for ppl to go out and vote.

When I have a day off and my manager needs me to come in, hell ask me and offer me lunch. If it wasnt for the lunch, I wouldnt have gone in, lol. Its that simple really. If you need something from me, I need something from you.

And if a meteor was gonna fall out of the sky and crush me if I didn't go to work on that Saturday, I wouldn't give a damn what I thought of my boss. I'd be up and at 'em.

Considering whether or not being crushed into paste is okay, because my boss didn't offer me incentives, is an insane thought process. At some point, self-preservation should kick in.

"Ok being alive is nice, but I'm not going to just get out of bed because it will keep me alive. I need getting out of bed to offer me more than not killing me!"

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I stated earlier in the topic Im not a political guy. Besides fucking up COVID responses, lying about countless things, January 6, and I believe abortion rights in certain states, idk any other shit hes doing cuz idc to look into it. It works with Biden too for the people refusing to vote for him because of Palestine. Idc what Biden is doing or not doing. Hes got a job to do and I assume hell do the best he can to appease everyone. Youre talking to someone that just wants to go to work, play video games a bit, smoke and chill and travel once in a while. Ive been doing those things when Obama, Trump and now Biden as president.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


It's really not tho, the rest of the water was still going to kill you anyway.

DrizztLink posted...

I admire your dedication to proving my point.

Idk what youre even talking about, but ok lol.

Apathetic voters are in this strange position where they think society sucks, but also that nothing really affects them.

nekrodev posted...

It's really not tho, the rest of the water was still going to kill you anyway.

But what if the flood only happened because a million drops all thought the flood was inevitable? The flood could have been a puddle if they chose differently.

hockeybabe89 posted...

And if a meteor was gonna fall out of the sky and crush me if I didn't go to work on that Saturday, I wouldn't give a damn what I thought of my boss. I'd be up and at 'em.

Considering whether or not being crushed into paste is okay, because my boss didn't offer me incentives, is an insane thought process. At some point, self-preservation should kick in.

"Ok being alive is nice, but I'm not going to just get out of bed because it will keep me alive. I need getting out of bed to offer me more than not killing me!"

Im over here talking about simple things like you wash my back and I wash yours and youre bringing up meteors and human paste lol.

SilvosForever posted...

Sure but your line of reasoning applies to millions of people, and if they all make the same decision as you do, for the same reasoning, then our democracy is worse for it.

It's like a cell going cancerous. Yeah, maybe one individual cell won't make you sick. But if millions do you've got a problem. It's a symptom of a trend that's not good.

Ultimately, you have to be the change you want to see in the world. If I give you a lever you can pull to make the world 0.00000000001% a nicer place or 0.00000000001% a worse place, and you choose to just not pull it at all - it's the same idea here.

If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. Ultimately that choice is just leaving donating the voice you had to other people, and letting other people determine your fate for you. It's pretty much the only voice in governance the average person get, and people fought and died for the chance while most people aren't even paying attention.

It's kind of a sad situation really. I'm sorry you feel like you don't matter. But it's a self-fulfilling prophecy if you could have done something but didn't.

Millions of people already make the same decision that I do, or are forced into it for a variety of reasons. The smarter things for Dems to do would be to promote voting, where the Republicans do the exact opposite. They COULD have spent the last 4 years trying to make Election Day a National Holiday, or making it more viable to vote by mail, or any number of other things.

hockeybabe89 posted...

But what if the flood only happened because a million drops all thought the flood was inevitable? The flood could have been a puddle if they chose differently.

Still not a great argument, especially depending on where you live. South Carolina, for instance, already has an 85%+ voter registration rate, and it would take that entire other 15% voting Dem to make it. It's an almost certain impossibility that 15% would all go the same way.

nekrodev posted...

Millions of people already make the same decision that I do, or are forced into it for a variety of reasons. The smarter things for Dems to do would be to promote voting, where the Republicans do the exact opposite. They COULD have spent the last 4 years trying to make Election Day a National Holiday, or making it more viable to vote by mail, or any number of other things.

Who fucking cares what the Democrats are doing? I still need to vote against the GOP. I'm not doing that for Biden or any of those assholes. It's in the best interests of all regular people that the GOP not win.
I couldn't give less of a shit whether or not that teaches the Democrats a lesson. They get to be lucky that they are running against motherfucking fascists and don't have to do anything other than exist as "not the GOP". We can work on fixing them between elections, when there's not a party of rabid wolves waiting to tear us to shreds.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Huh? I like to give gifts cuz it makes ppl happy, but to loved ones. If you aint in the circle and want something from me, Im gonna want an IOU depending on the person tbh. Ive never donated cuz life is rough, but I almost always carry a bit of cash on me cuz Im asked often from the homeless in NYC. Me not voting doesnt equal to me wanting people to die/lose rights. Thats some insanity thinking right there.

hockeybabe89 posted...

Who fucking cares what the Democrats are doing? I still need to vote against the GOP. I'm not doing that for Biden or any of those assholes. It's in the best interests of all regular people that the GOP not win.
I couldn't give less of a shit whether or not that teaches the Democrats a lesson. They get to be lucky that they are running against motherfucking fascists and don't have to do anything other than exist as "not the GOP". We can work on fixing them between elections, when there's not a party of rabid wolves waiting to tear us to shreds.

The Democrats NEED more votes to guarantee wins. Just sitting on their hands and pointing at the other side clearly isn't working. If you need to make a measurable stride, you have make measurable changes.

shyguybry posted...

Im over here talking about simple things like you wash my back and I wash yours and youre bringing up meteors and human paste lol.

Because who's washing my back doesn't matter when the alternative is far worse.

It's "go to work on the weekend and deal with my jerk boss" or "stay home and get shot by a home invader". That's what trans people, women, other minorities are dealing with this election. Taking the chances with the killer because you don't want your boss to have the satisfaction would be a crazy, self-destructive decision.

Clearly you have no real fears and nothing to lose so you don't care like I do. You have privilege.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I care about more than just myself, my girlfriend for example. I can care from a distance. Would I be considered a bad person if I want LGTBQ ppl to succeed, but not caring enough to go to a march or rally? I want good for everyone, life is short, I just dont care to be part of any of it. Its probably my depression, maybe itll ease up by the time November comes and Ill think differently. I respect your opinion.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Yea, youre right. I wasnt referring to you specifically, but the general consensus of it.

FortuneCookie posted...

No, I'm not. He'll lose and by a wider margin than last time

That's not guaranteed

FortuneCookie posted...

And that's if he's even allowed to run.

He will be.

FortuneCookie posted...

It's not going to happen.

That's what people thought in 2016 and now RvW is overturned.

nekrodev posted...

It's really not tho, the rest of the water was still going to kill you anyway.

That's what literally every other raindrop said.

Umbreon posted...

That's what literally every other raindrop said.

What happened to 1061?

Cemith posted...

That's not guaranteed

He will be.

That's what people thought in 2016 and now RvW is overturned.

Now the non-voters just tell us that even if things do get bad like that, we can just fight a civil war or assassinate the president or something!

hockeybabe89 posted...

Because who's washing my back doesn't matter when the alternative is far worse.

It's "go to work on the weekend and deal with my jerk boss" or "stay home and get shot by a home invader". That's what trans people, women, other minorities are dealing with this election. Taking the chances with the killer because you don't want your boss to have the satisfaction would be a crazy, self-destructive decision.

Clearly you have no real fears and nothing to lose so you don't care like I do. You have privilege.

I gotta be honest, Ive been dealing with a lot the past several years, I have no fear cuz Im not afraid to die/of death. Im a white hispanic. As Gladius has said, maybe my depression is causing me being apathetic. Maybe things will change in the near future, but if Im being real now, idc to vote. Im in a blue state (NJ), friends/family I have are all voting Biden, Im rooting for you, Im on your sidethe only thing in your eyes separating me from basically being a friend or foe is me not voting.

Some people simply want to be controlled.

ROB45 posted...

What happened to 1061?

...

What the fuck?

Yeah, Fandom must have gone after it. Because like it never was going to stop with 261, and like it was never going to stop with CE.

I'm not the leader of that board though so I have no idea what was said.

Umbreon posted...

...

What the fuck?

Yeah, Fandom must have gone after it. Because like it never was going to stop with 261, and like it was never going to stop with CE.

I'm not the leader of that board though so I have no idea what was said.

Would have been nice to have a warning so that we could do a sendoff. Shame.

Umbreon posted...

That's what literally every other raindrop said.

Okay, well, you still have to convince the rest of the flood, even if you got me, so....again, it's just a matter of math.

So, being realistic - you're not going to be able to flip the amount of people you need in solid red states, you're going to have to bring in new voters. You also need those voters to be on your side - which presumably, will probably wash out about the same as the people already voting, meaning you need to get at least HALF (in my state, the example i used) of unregistered voters to not only vote, but vote for your guy.

You're about as likely to change that as I am to convince any of you how pointless it is lmao

shyguybry posted...

I gotta be honest, Ive been dealing with a lot the past several years, I have no fear cuz Im not afraid to die/of death. Im a white hispanic. As Gladius has said, maybe my depression is causing me being apathetic. Maybe things will change in the near future, but if Im being real now, idc to vote. Im in a blue state (NJ), friends/family I have are all voting Biden, Im rooting for you, Im on your sidethe only thing in your eyes separating me from basically being a friend or foe is me not voting.

Depression is certainly a struggle, one I deal with as well. It can be easy to stop caring, because it's safer than being hurt. But it's ultimately just a slower, more drawn out way of hurting yourself.

Think about your loved ones for a minute. Think about the people you care about, the people who have been there for you when no one else has.

Now imagine someone wants to hurt those people. Imagine someone wanting to utterly destroy them and wielding the power to do so.

Now imagine if you had the power to stop them. Imagine if it was as simple as standing up and saying "NO" to them.

What do you do in that scenario?

ROB45 posted...

Would have been nice to have a warning so that we could do a sendoff. Shame.

What is 1061?

It's a lot less about sticking it to Biden or even the Dems on any personal level than it is to simply refuse to vote for someone you think is a terrible person who's enabling genocide, regardless even of how demonic the alternative is. You're asking people to go to the polls and affirmatively vote for someone they think is enabling genocide, in some cases against their own family members or people they actually know. Just stop to consider that for a moment.

The argument that the other side is much worse (and it is) is not going to be very persuasive when you can't make an affirmative argument for your candidate that justifies his phenomenally limp and cowardly attitude towards what's happening in Gaza, and something like genocide is a bit larger than the typical single-issue voting strategy.

nekrodev posted...

Okay, well, you still have to convince the rest of the flood, even if you got me, so....again, it's just a matter of math.

So, being realistic - you're not going to be able to flip the amount of people you need in solid red states, you're going to have to bring in new voters. You also need those voters to be on your side - which presumably, will probably wash out about the same as the people already voting, meaning you need to get at least HALF (in my state, the example i used) of unregistered voters to not only vote, but vote for your guy.

You're about as likely to change that as I am to convince any of you how pointless it is lmao

If you can be convinced, so can others. You say it's a matter of math, yet you don't seem to understand that math is a changing of numbers.

Will SC turn blue this election? Probably not. But if it gets closer and closer, that can eventually lead to something. Hell, SC has been blue before. If you say it's impossible you're already proven wrong.

It won't be likely or easy, but it's still possible.

But if you stay on the fence, you're contributing to the flood. Every line, every excuse, every justification you can offer has been used by every other fence sitter.

Imagine if no one brought into the "It's not my responsibility" line.

Cemith posted...

What is 1061?

Sex and sexuality board.

Or it was. Not sure if it's just gone or if they'll be a forced rebranding.

Umbreon posted...

Depression is certainly a struggle, one I deal with as well. It can be easy to stop caring, because it's safer than being hurt. But it's ultimately just a slower, more drawn out way of hurting yourself.

Think about your loved ones for a minute. Think about the people you care about, the people who have been there for you when no one else has.

Now imagine someone wants to hurt those people. Imagine someone wanting to utterly destroy them and wielding the power to do so.

Now imagine if you had the power to stop them. Imagine if it was as simple as standing up and saying "NO" to them.

What do you do in that scenario?

In that scenario, if it was as simple as saying no, of course Id stop them. I cant equate that scenario to voting because it isnt as simple as saying no. To continue with your scenario though, I have the power of a single no stopping someone from destroying loved ones, but if I dont say no, there are countless of others willing to say no to stop destruction from happening.

shyguybry posted...

I mean, Im not lying. Trump was elected and life went on normal for me for the most part besides all of COVID. Bidens president now and life is going at the usual norm for me. You gotta stop creating enemies with anyone who doesnt do exactly as you do.

It's normal for you because you or your loved ones aren't affected, but it doesn't make sense to assume it's this way for everyone. Like, if you had a trans relative in the wrong area, their life got significantly worse. Assuming you cared about them, would you not take issue with Trump?

Umbreon posted...

If you can be convinced, so can others. You say it's a matter of math, yet you don't seem to understand that math is a changing of numbers.

Will SC turn blue this election? Probably not. But if it gets closer and closer, that can eventually lead to something. Hell, SC has been blue before. If you say it's impossible you're already proven wrong.

It won't be likely or easy, but it's still possible.

But if you stay on the fence, you're contributing to the flood. Every line, every excuse, every justification you can offer has been used by every other fence sitter.

Imagine if no one brought into the "It's not my responsibility" line.

I'm not convinced, tho, but even giving you one freebie, you've still gotta go work on another 300k people, many of whom - if they did vote - probably wouldn't vote Dem.

Also, I've never said SC has never been blue - I've said it hasn't been blue in 50 years, as the modern form of our two-party system has unfolded, and that system is as in full effect as it's ever been. My belief, based on everything I can see, is that you will not see changes in solid red states until the older, more conservative populations start dying off in the next 20-30 years.

But, it's still hilarious how you literally can't help but act like I'm actively fighting against you or something lol, when regardless of my actions, there's still a flood. And the people who COULD have done something to help with that (the politicians), haven't.

shyguybry posted...

In that scenario, if it was as simple as saying no, of course Id stop them. I cant equate that scenario to voting because it isnt as simple as saying no. To continue with your scenario though, I have the power of a single no stopping someone from destroying loved ones

Voting IS saying NO to something. In 2020, I said NO to Trump being president again.

shyguybry posted...

there are countless of others willing to say no to stop destruction from happening.

Countless others. Until there isn't.

There were countless socialists, until they weren't. Countless trade unionists, until they weren't. Countless Jews, until they weren't.

When those people were being dragged away to the camps, how many people decided it wasn't worth the time or effort to stop it? That someone else would surely prevent things from getting out of control?

And uh, if you picked up on what I'm referring to and think "Hey, that's an extreme comparasion"!

Yes.

Because we're dealing with a man who openly wants to be a dictator, reminds Holocaust survivors of Hitler, and seems to be a friend to the neo nazis.

Seems like going to a voting booth and saying NO to all of that is a lot easier than the alternatives.

nekrodev posted...

But, it's still hilarious how you literally can't help but act like I'm actively fighting against you or something lol, when regardless of my actions, there's still a flood. And the people who COULD have done something to help with that (the politicians), haven't.

I'm not acting like that all. I know you don't care what will likely happen to me or my family if Trump wins. You'll have nothing to say should that day come.

Evening_Dragon posted...

It's normal for you because you or your loved ones aren't affected, but it doesn't make sense to assume it's this way for everyone. Like, if you had a trans relative in the wrong area, their life got significantly worse. Assuming you cared about them, would you not take issue with Trump?

Trans relative or not, Id tell a loved one to gtfo of whatever area/state youre in and live with me while we figure things out. Its the same as if I had a relative living in a dangerous neighborhood, Id tell them get out of there asap and live with me while things get figured outonly to come live in my dangerous neighborhood lol, nah jk just found the scenario funny telling a relative to move outta the hood only to move into your hood.

Umbreon posted...

I'm not acting like that all. I know you don't care what will likely happen to me or my family if Trump wins. You'll have nothing to say should that day come.

You literally are, saying shit like "you're still part of the flood", and the general sentiment from most of the posters on these issues is consistently the same. This ENTIRE TOPIC is about it, for fucks sake.