Current Events > If existential fear won't get you to vote against Trump, then nothing will.

(+) Yeah! (+)

nekrodev posted...

You literally are, saying shit like "you're still part of the flood", and the general sentiment from most of the posters on these issues is consistently the same. This ENTIRE TOPIC is about it, for fucks sake.

Why do you care? I thought it wasn't your problem.

Umbreon posted...

Why do you care? I thought it wasn't your problem.

The only reason I even posted in this topic was to attempt to clear up what seems to be a common misunderstanding. And, if you're now in agreement that me not voting for Biden isn't the same as supporting Trump, then I've succeeded and can go away.

Not voting Biden in this context is saying you see a Trump victory as an acceptable consequence.

So if he wins, don't complain when you lose human rights. You didn't care when it mattered after all.

It's one thing to supposedly oppose Trump but not be willing to do the one and only thing that's even possible for most people to do to make that opposition tangible (i.e., just vote for Biden).

It's another thing entirely to broadcast that shitty attitude and expect to get patted on the head for "standing up for principles" or whatever other rationalization is being used.

Umbreon posted...

Voting IS saying NO to something. In 2020, I said NO to Trump being president again.

Countless others. Until there isn't.

There were countless socialists, until they weren't. Countless trade unionists, until they weren't. Countless Jews, until they weren't.

When those people were being dragged away to the camps, how many people decided it wasn't worth the time or effort to stop it? That someone else would surely prevent things from getting out of control?

And uh, if you picked up on what I'm referring to and think "Hey, that's an extreme comparasion"!

Yes.

Because we're dealing with a man who openly wants to be a dictator, reminds Holocaust survivors of Hitler, and seems to be a friend to the neo nazis.

Seems like going to a voting booth and saying NO to all of that is a lot easier than the alternatives.

I meant it in literal terms. In your scenario all I had to do was say no and loved ones lives. I cant just say no on Election Day and that instantly converts to a Biden vote.

Trump was always all those things though. Its not new hes racist, friends with racists, hates women, etc. Its nearly a repeat of 2020, people were saying the same thing about Trump, Its just another election year. If Trump wins w/o cheating, its gonna be my fault for not voting rather than the ppl that actually voted for Trump?

When you mention those dragged away from camps in the past, who are you equating them to today?

Notice I went out of my way to not mention Biden in my OP because I don't have any interest in making the Democrats look good or to campaign for them. They're merely a means to an end, the right-place/right-time benefactors of voting for the party that isn't the GOP.

Umbreon posted...

Not voting Biden in this context is saying you see a Trump victory as an acceptable consequence.

So if he wins, don't complain when you lose human rights. You didn't care when it mattered after all.

lmao see, none of you can do it. you have to act like you have some kind of moral high ground when you absolutely don't.

EPR-radar posted...

It's one thing to supposedly oppose Trump but not be willing to do the one and only thing that's even possible for most people to do to make that opposition tangible (i.e., just vote for Biden).

It's another thing entirely to broadcast that shitty attitude and expect to get patted on the head for "standing up for principles" or whatever other rationalization is being used.

I don't think anyone is expecting to get patted on the head, we'd just like to not be spat on for literally no reason.

nekrodev posted...

lmao see, none of you can do it. you have to act like you have some kind of moral high ground when you absolutely don't.

At what point did I say I was better than anyone?

I'm just pointing out that if you don't stand up against Trump, you're choosing to not be an obstacle.

refmon posted...

It's a lot less about sticking it to Biden or even the Dems on any personal level than it is to simply refuse to vote for someone you think is a terrible person who's enabling genocide, regardless even of how demonic the alternative is. You're asking people to go to the polls and affirmatively vote for someone they think is enabling genocide, in some cases against their own family members or people they actually know. Just stop to consider that for a moment.

The argument that the other side is much worse (and it is) is not going to be very persuasive when you can't make an affirmative argument for your candidate that justifies his phenomenally limp and cowardly attitude towards what's happening in Gaza, and something like genocide is a bit larger than the typical single-issue voting strategy.

If Biden loses, will that bring the vicitms of Israel's genocide back? Will it stop further bloodshed. Why is it that when the stakes at home have never been higher, that we find it unconscionable to continue participating in the American election process because of our questionable foreign allies?

We have a death wish? We gonna die alongside the Palestinians in solidarity? Who does that help?

I don't want Biden to look good. He isn't my candidate. I want Trump to lose.

Umbreon posted...

At what point did I say I was better than anyone?

I'm just pointing out that if you don't stand up against Trump, you're choosing to not be an obstacle.

Oh, no, you aren't better than me - I'm just worse than you. That's very different /s

edit: adding /s in case it isn't clear

legendary_zell posted...

A positive vision that inspires hope works pretty well actually. Democrats just refuse to present one and seem to prefer "the other guy is terrible" as their only strategy.

Fear doesn't have the effect of making people think in the exact way you'd hope or expect. It often simply paralyzes and embitters. That's why you need hope.

I've tried to explain it to you countless times: people do not vote or participate in politics based on the mindset you present in these topics. Even someone like Humble Novice who is constantly pushing the "save democracy" button thinks Biden is actually good, not just that we're choosing between slow ruin and fast ruin. People check out if they think that's the case.

I actually see it the opposite way around. Hope and inspiration is great when it happens, but it is fickle and it's a rare talent for candidates to actually be good at campaigning on it (and delivering on hope and change is even more difficult, given the reality of the Republican menace).

What is it going to take to peacefully defeat the GOP and get back to something resembling normal politics in the US? The only answer I can see is the GOP consistently losing in national elections, to the point where it really does have to reform or die.

Which is the easier sales job?

A) running on hope and change for 12+ years with little/no actual progress to show for it because the GOP is still strong enough to block progress at least that long, or

B) trying to grow a solid D base for 12+ years that understands that the highest priority is opposing the GOP menace every November, in every election, at every level, and that all hope of future progress is contingent on first dealing with the Republican menace? Sure, it looks like running only on "Republicans are awful", but that is the truth. It is also true that Republicans have a lot of power, and it's going to take a long, hard campaign to do something about that.

nekrodev posted...

Oh, no, you aren't better than me - I'm just worse than you. That's very different /s

edit: adding /s in case it isn't clear

You're the only one bringing up my morality.

I don't know what you expect from... not participating? You've declared it not your problem, so fine. Not your problem.

nekrodev posted...

lmao see, none of you can do it. you have to act like you have some kind of moral high ground when you absolutely don't.

In my scenario LGBT people and minorities aren't prosecuted, meanwhile yours, they do.

I feel pretty good about it.

nekrodev posted...

lmao see, none of you can do it. you have to act like you have some kind of moral high ground when you absolutely don't.

You can have a government that allies with foreign nations that kill people, or you can have a government that dooms its own citizens to suffering AND allies with foreign nations that kill people.

The moral decision is clear. If you have the opportunity to save a lot of people out of a burning building, but not all of them, do you choose to save no one because it's the arsonist's fault if anyone dies? Are you in the clear if you make no decision at all?

nekrodev posted...

I'm just worse than you.

If you're not voting, yes. You only care about yourself or your little personal bubble, and when asked to do the simplest thing (vote), you want a reward for doing it.

Cemith posted...

In my scenario LGBT people and minorities aren't prosecuted, meanwhile yours, they do.

I feel pretty good about it.

My "scenario" is that one of these two people are already going to win, and nothing I do will change that. And, that sucks, but it's the world we live in.

Again, the majority of you on this board seem to equate this one action of not voting for Biden in this specific election to complicity in destroying all that is good in the world, when that's completely ridiculous - not only in concept, but statistically.

Cemith posted...

In my scenario LGBT people and minorities aren't prosecuted, meanwhile yours, they do.

I feel pretty good about it.

To be a little more accurate (since single votes so rarely decide elections, and this is a favorite deflection by the usual suspects), voting against Trump is at least trying to prevent persecution of minorities.

Not voting against Trump is not even trying to prevent persecution of minorities. Anyone who claims to oppose persecution of minorities that can't be bothered to do the one thing in their power to try to make that opposition real is someone that doesn't really oppose persecution of minorities.

It's not complicity so much as it's admitting you don't care if it does happen.

bluezero posted...

If you're not voting, yes. You only care about yourself or your little personal bubble, and when asked to do the simplest thing (vote), you want a reward for doing it.

There's literally nothing you could say or do to get me to vote in this election, or any other. I don't want a reward, I want to not be called a Trumper or equated as such.

Also, see exhibit F of people using this for moral posturing.

hockeybabe89 posted...

You can have a government that allies with foreign nations that kill people, or you can have a government that dooms its own citizens to suffering AND allies with foreign nations that kill people.

The moral decision is clear. If you have the opportunity to save a lot of people out of a burning building, but not all of them, do you choose to save no one because it's the arsonist's fault if anyone dies? Are you in the clear if you make no decision at all?

My participation in this election, or any other, has no effect on any of this. I do no have the opportunity nor ability to save anyone.

Also, allow me to add exhibit G of said moral posturing.

nekrodev posted...

I don't want a reward, I want to not be called a Trumper or equated as such.

You don't want to be considered one of them, but you also don't want to vote against them?

Why?

Umbreon posted...

You don't want to be considered one of them, but you also don't want to vote against them?

Why?

More "if you're not with us, you're against us" rhetoric.

nekrodev posted...

I don't want a reward, I want to not be called a Trumper or equated as such.

By your own logic, why should anyone care what you want, when you don't give a shit about what anyone else wants?

You are being as transactional as Trump, so if the shoe fits, just wear it.

nekrodev posted...

More "if you're not with us, you're against us" rhetoric.

You're not voting against Trump because... of rhetoric?

nekrodev posted...

My "scenario" is that one of these two people are already going to win, and nothing I do will change that. And, that sucks, but it's the world we live in.

Again, the majority of you on this board seem to equate this one action of not voting for Biden in this specific election to complicity in destroying all that is good in the world, when that's completely ridiculous - not only in concept, but statistically.

No one gives a fuck about your statistics. Shut up and vote against Trump.

nekrodev posted...

I don't want a reward

You've said you do, though. $10 or a box of donuts.

EPR-radar posted...

By your own logic, why should anyone care what you want, when you don't give a shit about what anyone else wants?

You are being as transactional as Trump, so if the shoe fits, just wear it.

What you want is for me to set aside the many issues I have w/ our government as a whole, w/ the Democrats, and w/ Joe Biden, and the very fundamentals of math to waste my own time when there's literally no point. All so that a bunch of random people I don't know, on an Internet forum, will feel better about my posts.

Umbreon posted...

You're not voting against Trump because... of rhetoric?

Ayy, straw-manning.

bluezero posted...

You've said you do, though. $10 or a box of donuts.

More straw-manning, that was literally a different poster.

hockeybabe89 posted...

No one gives a fuck about your statistics. Shut up and vote against Trump.

And back to the moral posturing.

nekrodev posted...

My participation in this election, or any other, has no effect on any of this. I do no have the opportunity nor ability to save anyone.

Also, allow me to add exhibit G of said moral posturing.

I'm being completely genuine. It is objectively better moral character to make the least harmful choices presented to you. And honestly, I'm only even making this argument because apparently me being scared out of my fucking mind and begging people to help stop the fascist GOP gets written off as "a bad way to campaign for Biden". Fuck Biden and fuck the Democrats. I'm not voting for them for their benefit.

Strawman? If that's what you want to call the very words you yourself used, so be it. You're not voting against Trump, despite clearly not wanting to be associated with Trump voters.

Why not vote against him?

nekrodev posted...

And back to the moral posturing.

Do you actually understand words or just repeat ones that you believe humans use in certain situations?

Biden's Israel policy is really bad tho.

nekrodev posted...

Again, the majority of you on this board seem to equate this one action of not voting for Biden in this specific election to complicity in destroying all that is good in the world, when that's completely ridiculous - not only in concept, but statistically.

I'm not going to do the math for you. The facts are that low turnout favors Republicans. The Republican candidate is a fucking monster psychopath.

Your inaction is complacency and you don't get to dress it up as anything else. Maybe your county will be red. Maybe it won't. But you do not get to sit there and pretend like voting does nothing.

And to add on, anything less than literally the bare minimum of civic responsibility is lazy and disgusting.

Umbreon posted...

FortuneCookie is the raindrop who insists holds no responsibility for the flood.

What agency does a raindrop have? It's blown by the wind.

I can't accept a president's responsibility if I have none of their power.

DrizztLink posted...

I can't tell you anything at all.

You've already decided to use your martyr complex to make millions of actual martyrs.

I'm no martyr. I just won't be an ally to genocide.

Evening_Dragon posted...

That's just being bad at math.

It never was my best subject.

Umbreon posted...

Strawman? If that's what you want to call the very words you yourself used, so be it. You're not voting against Trump, despite clearly not wanting to be associated with Trump voters.

Why not vote against him?

I was pointing out your continued moral high ground crap, that despite saying that you're not doing, you are absolutely doing - and that almost everyone else in this thread is doing.

I've stated here, and elsewhere, on numerous occasions at this point, my not participating has many reasons - including, but not limited to mathematical possibility. Your question has been answered.

FortuneCookie posted...

I'm no martyr. I just won't be an ally to genocide.

Oh boy more moral grandstanding.

I'm super sure you care so much about genocide, given you can't do the bare minimum in voting against persecution of LGBT people and minorities.

FortuneCookie posted...

What agency does a raindrop have? It's blown by the wind.

Taking metaphors literally is unbecoming.

FortuneCookie posted...

I can't accept a president's responsibility if I have none of their power.

You have a citizen's responsibility, and one of those responsibilities is making sure the leader you have a decision over isn't the worst.

FortuneCookie posted...

I'm no martyr. I just won't be an ally to genocide.

Oh, but unfortunately by not voting you're absolutely doing nothing to prevent the genocides to come.

Nothing was stopped by a fence sitter.

Cemith posted...

I'm not going to do the math for you. The facts are that low turnout favors Republicans. The Republican candidate is a fucking monster psychopath.

Your inaction is complacency and you don't get to dress it up as anything else. Maybe your county will be red. Maybe it won't. But you do not get to sit there and pretend like voting does nothing.

And to add on, anything less than literally the bare minimum of civic responsibility is lazy and disgusting.

I'm pretty okay w/ being called lazy and disgusting, but you will not lay any of this at my feet. It's that simple.

nekrodev posted...

I'm pretty okay w/ being called lazy and disgusting, but you will not lay any of this at my feet. It's that simple.

Believe me, we all know you're okay with a conservative victory. You spelled that out plenty well yourself.

nekrodev posted...

I was pointing out your continued moral high ground crap,

Again, only you have brought up my alleged "moral high ground".I don't see myself better than others.

nekrodev posted...

I've stated here, and elsewhere, on numerous occasions at this point, my not participating has many reasons - including, but not limited to mathematical possibility. Your question has been answered.

"It's not likely so I won't bother." - Millions of people who don't vote but like to complain that things don't go their way.

Its fine. The consequences of a Trump victory isn't concerning enough for you. It's not your problem.

So why care if the occasional person doesn't think so highly of you? Statistically most people don't know you exist.

Umbreon posted...

So why care if the occasional person doesn't think so highly of you? Statistically most people don't know you exist.

It's less about me, although inevitably I'm in the same position, but it annoys me to see people on here dogpiling people for having done literally nothing wrong. The much easier thing for me to do would be to put you all on ignore, but that prevents me from interacting w/ potentially okay people outside of political topics, and also removes an avenue of discussion and time wasting on slow days.

nekrodev posted...

What you want is for me to set aside the many issues I have w/ our government as a whole, w/ the Democrats, and w/ Joe Biden, and the very fundamentals of math to waste my own time when there's literally no point. All so that a bunch of random people I don't know, on an Internet forum, will feel better about my posts.

Every word of this is wrong (as expected).

What I want from you and others like you is for you to shut up about your plans to not vote for Biden while supposedly opposing Trump.

This is an online political discussion, and everyone who posts here (myself included, of course) has some combination of two motives -- wanting validation of our positions, and seeking to persuade others.

The posts of you and other supposedly anti-Trump Biden haters seek to persuade others to also not vote for Biden, and I view that as enemy action. Wanting validation for your views is obnoxious, but not as harmful.

nekrodev posted...

It's less about me

Really? I thought you were mostly upset that people weren't approving of you not doing your civic duty.

nekrodev posted...

It's less about me, although inevitably I'm in the same position, but it annoys me to see people on here dogpiling people for having done literally nothing wrong. The much easier thing for me to do would be to put you all on ignore, but that prevents me from interacting w/ potentially okay people outside of political topics, and also removes an avenue of discussion and time wasting on slow days.

Why do you care if someone gets "dogpiled,"? Statistically the amount of people here are insignificant. The math, your math, say none of that matters.

How is it your problem then?

Umbreon posted...

Oh, but unfortunately by not voting you're absolutely doing nothing to prevent the genocides to come.

Nothing was stopped by a fence sitter.

Not to change the subject, but do you honestly believe a vote will stop fascism?

We have individuals who want to see all Asian people, Black people, gay people, Hispanic people, Jewish people, and trans people wiped out or relegated to indentured servitude. But they'll walk away if they lose the vote.

It seems a bit like saying that Hitler would have stuck to painting if he'd lost a coin toss.

Umbreon posted...

You have a citizen's responsibility, and one of those responsibilities is making sure the leader you have a decision over isn't the worst.

If I have a responsibility to my nation to vote, then my nation has a responsibility to provide me with a candidate worth voting for.

FortuneCookie posted...

If I have a responsibility to my nation to vote, then my nation has a responsibility to provide me with a candidate worth voting for.

Ugh. This is exactly backward. Reality has inflicted a candidate (Trump) on the US who simply must be stopped. That's all there is to it.

FortuneCookie posted...

If I have a responsibility to my nation to vote, then my nation has a responsibility to provide me with a candidate worth voting for.

The fact that preventing the enabling of an aspiring dictator isn't enough to "earn your vote" means you're complacent anyway.

FortuneCookie posted...

Not to change the subject, but do you honestly believe a vote will stop fascism?

We have individuals who want to see all Asian people, Black people, gay people, Hispanic people, Jewish people, and trans people wiped out or relegated to indentured servitude. But they'll walk away if they lose the vote.

It seems a bit like saying that Hitler would have stuck to painting if he'd lost a coin toss.

If I have a responsibility to my nation to vote, then my nation has a responsibility to provide me with a candidate worth voting for.

And if they don't, then you'll leave your fate and the fate of everyone around you up to chance? Because you won't vote for the less bad option on your own?

FortuneCookie posted...

Not to change the subject, but do you honestly believe a vote will stop fascism?

We have individuals who want to see all Asian people, Black people, gay people, Hispanic people, Jewish people, and trans people wiped out or relegated to indentured servitude. But they'll walk away if they lose the vote.

It seems a bit like saying that Hitler would have stuck to painting if he'd lost a coin toss.

Voters can enable fascism -- Hitler had enough power in Germany that other politicians cut deals with him precisely because of Nazi results in elections.

So yes, the German electorate literally had the power to stop the Nazis dead in their tracks. Instead, they chose poorly.

FortuneCookie posted...

Not to change the subject, but do you honestly believe a vote will stop fascism?

We have individuals who want to see all Asian people, Black people, gay people, Hispanic people, Jewish people, and trans people wiped out or relegated to indentured servitude. But they'll walk away if they lose the vote.

It seems a bit like saying that Hitler would have stuck to painting if he'd lost a coin toss.

Do I think a single vote will magically result in world peace? No. I do, however, believe that every vote counts and voting is an important step in stopping fascism.

There's a reason fascist try their hardest to prevent people from voting.

Even Hitler himself stated that the Nazi party would have never taken off if people had utterly opposed it from the very start.

But if people didn't have enough uh 'motivation' to do so...

I don't think any of the Holocaust victims would look fondly on the people who could have stopped it but didn't because they just didn't feel like it.

FortuneCookie posted...

Not to change the subject, but do you honestly believe a vote will stop fascism?

Have you ever wondered why Facists are desprate to stop people from voting?

Hypothetically speaking, let's say Hitler clawed out of Hell onto Earth. He wants to continue where he left off before he did the world a favor and painted the walls with his brains.

Someone gives you a huge ass gun and tells you to shoot Demon Hitler in his bitch face.

Do you shoot him? Are you like "Fuck yeah, let's send Hitler back to Hell!"

.... or do you need more motivation? For some reason.