Current Events > I forgot how bad the Pain arc was in Naurto (Spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I wanna kill everyone to make them sad cuz if everyone is sad that's the only way we can understand each other and therefore cause tempoary world peace until people aren't sad anymore and we kill each other again which is bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU36pkH7c

Then after brutally killing everyone and destroying the village they just go "Using my magic ninja powers I instantly protected everyone" "Well using my magic ninja powers I instantly rebuilt the village" and "Well using my magic ninja powers I instantly brought the dead all back to life."

Da fuck was the point in any of that then?

And then they do like 30 episodes of filler were they go back to Naurto as a kid being an idiot for literally no reason. And if you want to skip them? Well tough luck Charlie because randomly dotted around the filler episodes are a handful of scenes actually continuing the main plot.

It was Dragonball GT level writing.

Pain arc was the highlight of the series as a whole, just behind the Chunin exams, if it wasn't for the revival bit at the end.

Makeveli_lives posted...

Pain arc was the highlight of the series as a whole, just behind the Chunin exams, if it wasn't for the revival bit at the end.

Yeah, the revival bit really soiled it and I stopped following the series shortly after.

i've never watched it or naruto (been told i should and hey maybe i will) but the only thing i know about it is people complain about some of the in-between frames of the animation

Fluttershy posted...

i've never watched it or naruto (been told i should and hey maybe i will) but the only thing i know about it is people complain about some of the in-between frames of the animation

It has a lot of the bad tropes anime used to have.

Tons of pointless filler.
Lazy animation.
Long stills on characters standing sitll or barely moving while long conversations play out.
Recaps and "next time on"s
Inconsistency in animation style between episodes and sometimes even scenes
Characters repeating what's going on multiple times for no reason

You could cut out like 68% of the show and only make it better.
It's hard to go back to by mondern standards. It needs like a DBZ Kai/DBZA.

Lazy animation.
Long stills on characters standing sitll or barely moving while long conversations play out.

the animation is really the only part of it with which i have any kind of familiarity at all, and it looked perfectly fine from what i saw. just people took screenshots of in-between frames (like the 'your pain isn't as big as mine!' shot or whatever).

long stills are bad animation, though. wendy's wouldn't serve that shit.

His plan was actually to use the Bijuu to nuke anyone who broke the peace. It actually makes sense.

I personally loved it as cringe as it may look. Naruto defeats and changes the mind of a VERY powerful enemy. He wanted to kill Pain but instead forgave him and stopped the cycle of revenge for that situation.

Also it was the turning point where everyone truly saw Naruto for the hero he is and also when he got a real power up with Frog powers.

JKwaffle posted...

Yeah, the revival bit really soiled it and I stopped following the series shortly after.

You got out while the getting was good, everything after Pain was a goddamn train wreck of power creep running away, aesops getting smashed, Senju cells, Naruto being Ninja Jesus, and all kinds of other utter nonsense.

And it sounds like Boruto somehow got even worse.

Fluttershy posted...

Lazy animation.
Long stills on characters standing sitll or barely moving while long conversations play out.

the animation is really the only part of it with which i have any kind of familiarity at all, and it looked perfectly fine from what i saw. just people took screenshots of in-between frames (like the 'your pain isn't as big as mine!' shot or whatever).

long stills are bad animation, though. wendy's wouldn't serve that shit.

The animation is just as bad as the stills at points (starts at the 20 second mark):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxjL6X4vZHk

There's a deeper dive into what exactly went wrong here, but the tl;dr is that the fight was done with far too few key animators. It was already rare to take on "big" episodes with only 4 people, and by modern standards it just doesn't happen (and for good reason). It was an experimental animation style done by a handful of dedicated people that just... didn't work for Naruto. Like... the animator literally said he modeled Pain getting punched in the face after a water balloon hitting the ground. They had to use Adobe Flash to get it done in time because the animators brought on were experienced with it and could work quickly.

https://www.slashfilm.com/948641/the-naruto-fight-that-changed-animation-history/

Fluttershy posted...

long stills are bad animation, though. wendy's wouldn't serve that s***.

Ma'am? This is an Ichiraku Ramen's.

Da pain arc is da best arc. When naruto arrives to da destroyed village after winning and sees everyone dere waiting for him

It brought me to tears T___T

Vegy posted...

Da pain arc is da best arc. When naruto arrives to da destroyed village after winning and sees everyone dere waiting for him

It brought me to tears T___T

And then it's all undone on the spot

The animation is just as bad as the stills at points (starts at the 20 second mark):

so this made me go and watch the actual scene again because that was cut to try and make it look worse than it really was.

i acknowledge that there could have been problems with staffing and whatever but i think it's animated really well anyway. it's a different style and people didn't like it but it's gorgeous in motion.

honestly i kind of look at it as being maybe ahead of its time. that was 2007.

It's my favorite arc of the series and has the best OP:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SavhHnWla6c

Guns_of_Verdun posted...

And then it's all undone on the spot

Why? The filler that comes right after? That was probably the most egregiously bad filler arc, but that should only affect your perception of the story as a whole. Not that particular arc. I don't see why you would dislike it because of filler that came after it

This arc also gave us this very powerful scene

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/b/b09f5049.jpg

Kyle1022 posted...

Why? The filler that comes right after? That was probably the most egregiously bad filler arc, but that should only affect your perception of the story as a whole. Not that particular arc. I don't see why you would dislike it because of filler that came after it

No because they immediately undid everything Pain had done

Pain Arc was pretty cool until the stupid ending.

The anime kinda butchered it though.

The anime kinda butchered it though.

i really don't feel that way about the animation. at all.

there were a lot of people who complained about jjk season 2's animation back when it was all still shots - because it was low-detail - and i feel like people are confusing low-detail with low-quality.

there's a time and a place for detail. it doesn't make a scene better-animated just because you can pause it and spot single-frame hidden things. animation is about conveying a sense of motion, weight, and life. i think the pain fight was pretty ambitious.

My main issue with the animation was that it was super inconsistent between episodes (which extends to the series as a whole sure), like you'd get really smooth, movie-level stuff one week but then rigid, stiff stuff the next.

But also the pacing of the entire invasion felt weird.

i have to admit to not having the episode-to-episode perspective and i can see the argument. but i'll actually move onto that hill where the pain fight people go to die and set up a weird little shanty.

like, isolating that out from the rest of the show, it's really something that leaned out of by-the-numbers really often and had even some legitimately cartoony things going on. that one part with dude running across water. i can see that being jarring and dissonant to the rest of the series and i wonder if i'd be wrong to think that sakuga as an idea gradually got more comfortable with being as - for lack of a better word - distinct.

Fluttershy posted...

The animation is just as bad as the stills at points (starts at the 20 second mark):

so this made me go and watch the actual scene again because that was cut to try and make it look worse than it really was.

i acknowledge that there could have been problems with staffing and whatever but i think it's animated really well anyway. it's a different style and people didn't like it but it's gorgeous in motion.

honestly i kind of look at it as being maybe ahead of its time. that was 2007.

You don't need to cut it to TRY and make it look bad, it just is bad, like ridiculously so. I was hyped looking forward to that moment since in the manga it was awesome. But we got that trash. I will never see how anyone can defend it. The animation is fluid...I guess? Doesn't change the fact that it looks like ass.

I will never see how anyone can defend it. The animation is fluid...I guess?

shortest character arc ever.

so here's the thing with animation, what makes it neat: it doesn't actually have to follow rules. you're allowed to contort and stretch your subjects to express a point. you can model someone taking a punch to the face after a water balloon, for example.

i think the scene everyone points to and complains about - where the dude's face warps and looks really ugly, especially if you pause it - as he's punching the ground is fantastic. i think it conveys force and momentum exceptionally well and it uses style to do that.

i want to ask you to point me to another fight in the series that you consider as well-animated. honestly, i really do think that people hating the pain fight is a function of the style being too early.

I don't have the mental energy to debate this...how anyone can look at that and think it was actually good is beyond me.
Fluttershy posted...

i think the scene everyone points to and complains about - where the dude's face warps and looks really ugly, especially if you pause it - as he's punching the ground is fantastic. i think it conveys force and momentum exceptionally well and it uses style to do that.

That's just the most popular example, you want to tell me that all the other goofy looking shit in that episode is good? The goofy transformation and swinging around of 6 tailed Naruto's chakra arms at the start smacking stone blocks over to Pain, the looney toon whacking of Pain into the ground and then into the mountain wall. The looney toon running later on. It's just full of stupid as hell looking scenes.

You want a comparison of a fight with somewhat similar animation style as this but actually done well? Valley of the End, Naruto vs Saskuke part 1.

The looney toons stuff actually done well and in a place where it fits is in One Piece. I was absolutely not expecting it in 6 Tails Naruto vs Pain, it was supposed to be an epic moment where Naruto explodes in rage over what was done to Hinata.

To me, it couldn't be more clear why this was disappointing to fans.

Darkinsanity1 posted...

You want a comparison of a fight with somewhat similar animation style as this but actually done well? Valley of the End, Naruto vs Saskuke part 1.

That fight also had like half the same animators. From the article i linked above:

Just like episode 30 of "Naruto," episode 167 of "Shippuden" was directed and storyboarded by Atsushi Wakabayashi. Wakabayashi made his name on "Yu Yu Hakusho," known to western viewers as a beloved member of Cartoon Network's Toonami airing block. The sequences he supervised, often in collaboration with idiosyncratic director Akiyuki Shinbo, were some of the most stunning and ambitious of the 1990s. After bouncing from project to project, he landed on "Naruto," where he would personally handle three of the best-loved episodes in the series. The first was the aforementioned episode 30. The second was episode 71, which aired on February 18 2004, depicting Orochimaru's fight with the powerful Third Hokage. The third was episode 133, which aired on May 4 2005, capturing Naruto's climactic struggle to prevent his rival and friend Sasuke from joining Orochimaru's side.

Just as important to these three episodes as Wakabayashi was the animator Norio Matsumoto. Matsumoto is one of the most influential action animators there is, a master of conveying impactful movement through extreme stretches and smears.
<Cut>
Matsumoto created all the key animation for the first half of episode 30, including the fight between Sasuke and Orochimaru, by himself. It was Norio Matsumoto's animation specifically, in its speed, character and sheer thoroughness, that inspired Shingo Yamashita to become an animator.

s0nicfan posted...

That fight also had like half the same animators. From the article i linked above:

Yeah, like I said, somewhat similar animation style but actually done well. I wasn't aware of those specifics but obviously not surprising at all since I identified it as being somewhat similar. They just went way too far without actually considering how it would look in 167.

Tbh Naruto vs Sasuke part 1 bothered me a bit back then too but it grew on me. 167 never will lol.

A couple of the problems I had with the arc:
1) They killed my boi Kakashi
2) They brought him back to life

But my god, it was the best fight Naruto ever had. The culmination of his journey and training, and him proving himself strong enough to stand amongst giants. This should have been peak Naruto (the character). None of that sage of 6 path garbage, and Kurama's friendship mode should have been at the very end of the series, his final form. Him taming the beast, attained against the final boss (who should not have been Kaguya).

The animation was perfectly fine, minus that meme bit of Pain vs 6/7 tail Naruto.

That's just the most popular example, you want to tell me that all the other goofy looking shit in that episode is good?

i'd like you to approach this in good faith and not call the things you personally dislike 'goofy looking shit', but as you said you don't have the mental capacity to debate this, and that's fine.

i've explained why i like it and all you can do is call it names. you don't have anything for me, you just wanted to post mad.

Pain getting hammered into the dirt like a nail will never not be hilarious and tonal whiplash-inducing.

Guns_of_Verdun posted...

No because they immediately undid everything Pain had done

Not everything, Jiraiya stayed dead for example

Idk, I thought them doing that was a good way to show how powerful the Rinnegan was. And it's not like that was the first time in the series where someone came back to life

I mean people are complaining but from what I remember, isn't Kakashi really the only noteworthy person who was killed and then revived? He is a fan favorite, they were never going to permanently kill off both him and Jiraya in the same arc

i'm perfectly willing to concede that there's tonal whiplash but tone is a different beast than animation and he looked damn good being turned into a looney tunes nail.

ThePieReborn posted...

Pain getting hammered into the dirt like a nail will never not be hilarious and tonal whiplash-inducing.

Yeah...it wasn't supposed to be stupid funny like that. Like it's insane to me that people can actually think this was good. It was absolutely not what this episode should have been.

They ruined a huge moment I was looking forward to in the anime and I absolutely loathe it.

I liked when they went all looney toons with it.

it was better than that time Naruto and Kakashi chased Deidara for like 10 episodes

Fluttershy posted...

i'm perfectly willing to concede that there's tonal whiplash but tone is a different beast than animation and he looked damn good being turned into a looney tunes nail.

Well to start, what do you define as good animation? There's subjective preference, but there are also objective ways to measure quality. I think if there was any way to debate whether the animation in the fight was good or not, you kind of need to set terms. Like... is it just number of unique frames to you? Do you consider inter-frame consistency important? What about consideration for conforming to character design? Use of dynamic camera angles? Consistent use of lighting and shadows to accurately convey depth in a highly dynamic environment?

tl;dr: what do you mean by "good"?

there are also objective ways to measure quality

you kind of lose me when you say this and then list things like unique frames and adherence to model. i think you can have all the things you listed and still be animated poorly -- it really is about how all of them work together. like, no, you want to set subjective terms to art like you can score animation as if it were a boxing match. that's not how that works.

(i feel like that may actually be the thought process by which people remake scenes in 60 fps and think they've improved them)

let me ask you this, by what measure do you think dude being nailed into the ground looks bad and not just out-of-place or tonally inappropriate?

Fluttershy posted...

there are also objective ways to measure quality

you kind of lose me when you say this and then list things like unique frames and adherence to model. i think you can have all the things you listed and still be animated poorly -- it really is about how all of them work together. like, no, you want to set subjective terms to art like you can score animation as if it were a boxing match. that's not how that works.

let me ask you this, by what measure do you think dude being nailed into the ground looks bad and not just out-of-place or tonally inappropriate?

I'm willing to entertain a discussion, but not if you're going to begin by dodging my question and then responding with a question of your own. If you aren't willing or capable to even attempt to define what you mean by "good animation" then you're not actually looking to have a debate. You just want to disagree with people and fight about it.

i feel that i've already defined it and that you ignored that post because you're trying to fish for something and that you're not really looking for a discussion.

if you want anything more out of me you're going to answer my question first.

Fluttershy posted...

i feel that i've already defined it and that you ignored that post because you're trying to fish for something and that you're not really looking for a discussion.

if you want anything more out of me you're going to answer my question first.

No.

that's because you know it looks good, you just don't like it and you want to call it bad even though it isn't. good talk.

s0nicfan posted...

The animation is just as bad as the stills at points (starts at the 20 second mark):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxjL6X4vZHk

I think it worked. It was or course going for a unique animation style to communicate how special this battle was.