Current Events > C/D: Force Awakens is a nostalgia pandering mess

(+) Yeah! (+)

Toonstrack posted...

Lmao no.

Theres two entire scripts for TROS. TLJ left the next guy with the bad guys and the good guys unified and clesrly defined.

To say there's nothing to work with just means you aren't capable of writing a story. It had everything to work with and thats why there's too scripts.

They just got a lesser director than RJ to do it.

TLJ is the best of the sequels easily.

Yeah, you sound about as ridiculous as the typical Last Jedi fan.

I dont mind the story arc all that much, but I hated the characters, Finn, Poe, Rey, and Kylo..not one of them actually gave me a reason to care.

Its the characters in the sequels that really screwed it up. It doesnt help that the legends books did Jacen Solos fall to the dark side in a much better way than the sequels did. I also think given how bad the sequels are, they made the first one worse.

Also, that we are left connecting the dots between episode 6 and 7 with no idea what the first order is..just lazy.

I like how they never explained where Maz got Anakin's saber

I will go to my grave saying The Force Awakens was a great film.

I disagree with those who say it aged poorly. It aged perfectly fine, the problem is TFA set up a lot of plots/themes/characters and ideas that it teases will be explored or explained in future films... but that doesn't happen.

Like if the first Avengers film was utter trash, that doesn't retroactively make Iron Man 1 a bad movie because it teased the Avengers.

TFA goes overboard with the nostalgia pandering but at the time I accepted that as it has been a long time since there was a proper Star Wars film and the studio wanted to make the audience comfortable with this new series set in Star Wars, so they over did it with making it feel familiar. I would have loved it if they just took so much of that out and focused on the new characters way more.

At the time I thought with the nostalgia done in the first film future films would be able to focus on the new characters more. Even if they followed the path of their OG counterparts they were different enough it would be fun to see how they handled the hero's journey.

Or you know... don't do that. Subvert our expectation of good film making by making shitty films. Have the second film have a mind numbingly boring middle because no one is excepting it to be boring. And have the finale film make no god damn sense because no expects the movie to nonsensical.

In a vacuum, without the stigma of the rest of the Sequel films The Force Awakens is a very good film.

Mechu posted...

I like how they never explained where Maz got Anakin's saber

I was about to to comment on how ridiculous this is, with some comparison like how they never explain how the rebels got from Yavin to Hoth.

But then I realized that this is Star Wars, and they almost certainly do, somewhere, in like issue 13 of The Adventures of the Pig Guy Who Later Got Eaten by the Rancor or whatever.

It was decent but absolutely nostalgia pandering

It was a garbage movie just like the rest of the ST, the only good movie disney has made is Rogue One.

RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

It was a garbage movie just like the rest of the ST, the only good movie disney has made is Rogue One.

I'm also a fan of Aladdin, The Lion King, Hercules, Pirates of the Caribbean (only the first though) and John Carter.

Best movie of the sequels even if that is a very low bar.

RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

It was a garbage movie just like the rest of the ST, the only good movie disney has made is Rogue One.

Iol

JJ is an overrated hack director so it never stood a chance.

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

Well, you could look at it that way, but honestly it was the right call.

People were on the prequel hate train almost as hard as they're currently on the sequel hate train now, until the younger millennials and zoomers who watched them as kids grew up and started contributing to the Internet in a meaningful way.

Playing it safe was DEFINITELY the right call. Besides, it's not like it brought nothing new to the table. I was actually QUITE fond of how they deconstructed some of the ideas of the originals and presented the rather topical generational struggle in the context of a borderline remake that left on a radically different trajectory than the original.

It's a shame about 8 and 9 though. I thought 8 at least had a few interesting ideas in it, but 9 was just bad.

In what way did TFA end on a different trajectory? Killing the New Republic made the Resistance the same as the Rebellion. Snoke is an obvious narrative copy of Palatine. A New Jedi Order founded by a person that beat Vader by not fighting him would struggle with a new with threat but instead of that new avenue we got a repeat of the last of the Jedi are in hiding. What exactly is new?

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

If I had to guess, the cutting room floor was positively littered with scenes that would have explained/fixed everything.

Just like Lost, JJ never had a plan to explain.

And still so much better than the prequels

Nowhere as good as The Last Jedi or Rogue One though

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

I dont mind the story arc all that much, but I hated the characters, Finn, Poe, Rey, and Kylo..not one of them actually gave me a reason to care.

I actually liked the new characters, the writers just didn't do shit with them

I still say Finn & Poe should have ended up as a couple, given their "meet cute" setup

Enclave posted...

Yeah, you sound about as ridiculous as the typical Last Jedi fan.

No arguments as usual.

Star wars fans fell on their own sword long ago. Im a huge fan but the fanbase is incorrigible.

I liked it about as much as IV and V. I didnt like it.

Awful movie. Even outside the context of being a sequel, it's just ok, but the amount of damage it did to the chances of making a compelling sequel is staggering. JJ couldn't have hobbled the trilogy harder if he tried.

The Force Awakens is fine.

Can we stop trying to kill every star wars movie besides The Empire Strikes Back?

Clearly they aren't batting 1000, but the original trilogy are all great... and fuck you haters - while Return of the Jedi has it's flaws, it also has some of the best scenes and character development in the entire franchise.

Yes, Phantom Menace and Attack of Clones suck ass, but the third film of the prequels has redeeming qualities and almost becomes a good movie by the end...(until NoooOooOooo! Which I didn't think was quite as universe endingly bad as others, goofy but not that bad!)

Now the Force Awakens is somewhere between the best of the prequels and the worst of the classic trilogy. It's a return to form. It's fun and moves at a nice pace. It's got problems and some goofy shit, but it's fine.

Of course The Last Jedi was so mind bogglingly stupid it made me quit Star Wars as a franchise... but that's not the topic.

III > I > VI > R1 > IV > VII > V > II > VIII > Solo

Havent seen the rest.

HylianFox posted...

I actually liked the new characters, the writers just didn't do shit with them

I still say Finn & Poe should have ended up as a couple, given their "meet cute" setup

To each his own. I thought from a casting perspective, a dialogue perspective, and a story telling perspective, they went way too safe. The characters of Kylo and Ren came from the wrong angle, and I dont know what purpose Finn and Poe are actually supposed to serve.

I would have preferred a story where Luke is actually training Han and Leias kid, who is being pulled in a million different directions, and if they really needed to go the mother son route, have Luke fuck up as a teacher and Leia handle the redemption arc as they did. Although, I think it would have been better if Kylo and Rey were simply friends at Lukes academy, Rey can be a nobody, just a force savant as it were, and Kylo hates being second fiddle or something along those lines and gets pulled away from the academy by some OTHER mysterious dark power that isnt Palpatine. And have Luke be forced to learn how to be a better teacher and have him go after his lost apprentice. And if you have to kill him, then have Rey pick up the banner in the 3rd movie after she watches Luke die at the end of the second movie, and whatever lure of the dark side you have pulling Kylo over is revealed. So Rey either has a choice, to try and save her friend who has now killed both his father and uncle, or kill him herself.

Only problem with that idea though, is that is dangerously close to what they did in legends. But at least its a more personal story than the bullshit we got.

And if you notice, Poe and Finn do not fit in my story at all. I actually dont see a need for the rebellion against the empire story at all, and really dont need the massive space battles or intergalactic war at all. That shit was supposed to be done in Episode 6. The dogfighting we would have would be more similar to what we saw in Attack of the Clones with the asteroid field chase. And the whole concept of the first order makes absolutely no sense and exists only to sell merchandise. I dont see why you need a rebel pilot and rogue storm trooper at all. If you are going to make an episode 7 at all, it really shouldnt have been that similar to the originals. I actually like that the prequels tried to stay away from that. Its too bad someone put Gungans and Battle droids in George Lucas head, and forgot to review the dialogue before it was written.

Force Awakens was fun. Sure it is pretty much a remake of the first movie, but at least it is copying something great.

It is worse than Rogue One, but it is leagues better than the boring shit show of the Last Jedi

I still haven't seen Rise of Skywalker yet, but I don't think I'm missing much

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

and I dont know what purpose Finn and Poe are actually supposed to serve.

I know what you mean. It seemed like they wanted to have two cool younger male leads that the most hardcore audience of mostly young men would feel connected to...

But I will point out that Finn was set up for a grand redemption arc that gets resolved really quickly without much effort or conflict. There's something there, but it's under utilized.

"I'm a bad guy questioning my world"
"I'm a deserter being dragged along by the plot"
"I think I'm going to run and hide now that we're free."
"Oh wait, we're being attacked?"
"Nah, I'm going to stay and be a good guy from now on."

All before the end of the 2nd act of the first film.

Toonstrack posted...

No arguments as usual.

Star wars fans fell on their own sword long ago. Im a huge fan but the fanbase is incorrigible.

I already explained it, if you want me to do a deep dive in all the terrible aspects to Last Jedi well sorry but I don't feel like wasting that much time.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

To each his own. I thought from a casting perspective, a dialogue perspective, and a story telling perspective, they went way too safe. The characters of Kylo and Ren came from the wrong angle, and I dont know what purpose Finn and Poe are actually supposed to serve.

I would have preferred a story where Luke is actually training Han and Leias kid, who is being pulled in a million different directions, and if they really needed to go the mother son route, have Luke fuck up as a teacher and Leia handle the redemption arc as they did. Although, I think it would have been better if Kylo and Rey were simply friends at Lukes academy, Rey can be a nobody, just a force savant as it were, and Kylo hates being second fiddle or something along those lines and gets pulled away from the academy by some OTHER mysterious dark power that isnt Palpatine. And have Luke be forced to learn how to be a better teacher and have him go after his lost apprentice. And if you have to kill him, then have Rey pick up the banner in the 3rd movie after she watches Luke die at the end of the second movie, and whatever lure of the dark side you have pulling Kylo over is revealed. So Rey either has a choice, to try and save her friend who has now killed both his father and uncle, or kill him herself.

Only problem with that idea though, is that is dangerously close to what they did in legends. But at least its a more personal story than the bullshit we got.

And if you notice, Poe and Finn do not fit in my story at all. I actually dont see a need for the rebellion against the empire story at all, and really dont need the massive space battles or intergalactic war at all. That shit was supposed to be done in Episode 6. The dogfighting we would have would be more similar to what we saw in Attack of the Clones with the asteroid field chase. And the whole concept of the first order makes absolutely no sense and exists only to sell merchandise. I dont see why you need a rebel pilot and rogue storm trooper at all. If you are going to make an episode 7 at all, it really shouldnt have been that similar to the originals. I actually like that the prequels tried to stay away from that. Its too bad someone put Gungans and Battle droids in George Lucas head, and forgot to review the dialogue before it was written.

That would've been so much better. The prequels aren't a masterpiece but at least they did something new. Collectively the Disney trilogy is doing a worse job of retelling the OT story. TFA is good as a stand alone movie but it's not a stand alone movie and as a direct clone of IV it derailed the whole series.

I'll take the safe soft reboot over what we got in TLJ. TFA wasn't great, but it was fine and still had me interested in where the new trilogy was going. TLJ ruined that.

Torgo posted...

Clearly they aren't batting 1000, but the original trilogy are all great... and fuck you haters - while Return of the Jedi has it's flaws, it also has some of the best scenes and character development in the entire franchise.

Hear hear. I'm tired of ROTJ getting shit on so much now. Feels like a relatively modern thing. I feel like years and years ago it was universally loved except the Ewoks, which were still tolerated and not outright hated on par with the Gungans of the prequels. ROTJ has some lows, but it also has some of the highest highs of the whole trilogy.

Southernfatman posted...

I'll take the safe soft reboot over what we got in TLJ. TFA wasn't great, but it was fine and still had me interested in where the new trilogy was going. TLJ ruined that.

If someone comes in, gives an excited hype speech promising things they have no intention on ever delivering on, then the second guy gets booed when it comes out that there was no plan, the hype man isn't free of guilt for that situation.

bfslick50 posted...

In what way did TFA end on a different trajectory? (...) What exactly is new?

The bad guy got away? The (co)hero is in a coma? There's no celebration of any kind?

bfslick50 posted...

Just like Lost, JJ never had a plan to explain.

I've never seen Lost, but in any case, I was talking about episode 8, which was RJ's film.

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

The bad guy got away?

You mean like when Darth Vader's tie fighter was shot by the Millennium Falcon and instead of blowing up he spun out of control away from the battle so he'd live to see the sequel?

The (co)hero is in a coma?

Not really an interesting plot set up. It's Star Wars, of course he'd wake up fine in a bacta tank.

There's no celebration of any kind?

So after winning the battle, they didn't show a happy group celebratory moment as an epilogue scene you're counting as a different trajectory?

bfslick50 posted...

You mean like when Darth Vader's tie fighter was shot by the Millennium Falcon and instead of blowing up he spun out of control away from the battle so he'd live to see the sequel?

Not really an interesting plot set up. It's Star Wars, of course he'd wake up fine in a bacta tank.

So after winning the battle, they didn't show a happy group celebratory moment as an epilogue scene you're counting as a different trajectory?

*shrugs*

Here's your internet argument trophy, now go away.

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

*shrugs*

Here's your internet argument trophy, now go away.

Never, time for a victory lap.

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

I was about to to comment on how ridiculous this is, with some comparison like how they never explain how the rebels got from Yavin to Hoth.

So you think non-force user finding a specific object dropped from the clouds of a gas giant is as implausible as a group with space ships containing hyperdrives leaving one planet and setting up base on another in the span of 3 years? Like both need an equal level of explanation to fill in the gap.

TFA works great as a stand alone movie. But as an entry in the series, try and connect it to anything from the OT and it's just a hot mess.

Hard disagree. My biggest problem with TFA is how absolutely dogshit TLJ is. TFA made terrific setups that had me super excited. And then they just decided to make a trash follow up.

Which leads to the question. In the recent years, probably over 90 percent of the stories written are garbage.

What happened to the good writing?

Confirm. It had potential but it relies on sequels that shat all over whatever storyline it was setting up.

Southernfatman posted...

Hear hear. I'm tired of ROTJ getting shit on so much now. Feels like a relatively modern thing.

It is... mostly online Youtubers millenials that grew up in the dark edgy era hating on the Jabba's Palace swashbuckling and a massive hate boner for Ewoks.

The thing is... the Jabbas Palace stuff is like the purest distillation of Star Wars in the entire series. It's high adventure, it's got weird alien characters and swashbuckling and monsters and weird futuristic weapons and Jedi force powers.

While I was never a big Ewok fan even as a kid, they are probably the weakest element in the movie, but if we swapped them out for something big like Wookies and ran the exact same plot - I think people would stop complaining.

Then you have the final act and Luke creating a third alternative to defeat the Emperor, and I stand by that is the best part of the entire franchise - and then seeing how Anakin failed and took the opposite path in the third prequel makes it even more significant.

Enclave posted...

I already explained it, if you want me to do a deep dive in all the terrible aspects to Last Jedi well sorry but I don't feel like wasting that much time.

The Last Jedi is the best saga film released since ESB.

Torgo posted...

While I was never a big Ewok fan even as a kid, they are probably the weakest element in the movie, but if we swapped them out for something big like Wookies and ran the exact same plot - I think people would stop complaining.

What I don't get is the whole "The Empire was beaten by teddy bears" angle

Like, did they even watch the movie? The Ewoks were getting their asses handed to them until Chewie and couple others commandeered an AT-ST

Sure, the Ewoks had the element of surprise, but once the troops got their shit together they were slaying Ewoks left and right...

Cobra1010 posted...

Which leads to the question. In the recent years, probably over 90 percent of the stories written are garbage.

What happened to the good writing?

Ahsoka, Andor, Rogue One, TLJ and even JFO all have had better writing than anything from the prequels and arguably some apects of the originals.

Luthens speech in Andor is the best piece of dialogue ever put into a star wars project, and most of yall didn't even bother watching it.

Star wars as a franchise is an anomaly in that most of its entries ARENT THAT GOOD, but it remains its popularity anyways.

Toonstrack posted...

Star wars as a franchise is an anomaly in that most of its entries ARENT THAT GOOD, but it remains its popularity anyways.

And let's not forget that this trend started waaaaaay back with the Holiday Special

Toonstrack posted...

The Last Jedi is the best saga film released since ESB.

Strongly disagree. It is the worst Star Wars movie for me.

TFA was safe, like ANH. TLJ was not safe, like TESB. TROS tried to be fun, like ROTJ, but it failed. To explain the DST movies another way:

Kasdan and Spielberg were Daedalus to the DST; they crafted and gave TFA the wings that Abrams used to re-launch [SW].
Johnson, consulting with Hidalgo, was Thucydides to the DST; he impartially wove TLJ as the fabric of previous saga events.
Terrio and Abrams were Icarus to the DST; they changed the specs with their redesigned TROS and flew too close to the sun.

[ Fwiw, ROTJ is my favorite film of the saga. It has everything that Lucas had intended for SW to be. ]

It wasn't even subtle.

It was a clumsy, horrible, on the nose, tries-too-hard remake.

Never a big fan. I do enjoy the original trilogy. But I've not bothered with any of it since.

HylianFox posted...

What I don't get is the whole "The Empire was beaten by teddy bears" angle

Like, did they even watch the movie? The Ewoks were getting their asses handed to them until Chewie and couple others commandeered an AT-ST

Sure, the Ewoks had the element of surprise, but once the troops got their shit together they were slaying Ewoks left and right...

Its not that. Its that the god damned teddy bears were there in the first place. You dont have an army of space nazis with planet destroying super weapons and city sized capital ships undone because of one little moons shield generator and a bunch of teddy bears helping a small band of rebels. I have no problem with the emperor being on the Death Star. I do have a problem with how the Death Star was defended. And they telegraphed it with your over confidence is your weakness. Like they knew it was a stupid way to bring down the Empire, and they just wanted to make it seem reasonable.

Cotton_Eye_Joe posted...

Confirm

you think this? easily tfw was the best of that trilogy. tfw and solo were top 5 SW movies ever.

HylianFox posted...

What I don't get is the whole "The Empire was beaten by teddy bears" angle

Like, did they even watch the movie? The Ewoks were getting their asses handed to them until Chewie and couple others commandeered an AT-ST

Sure, the Ewoks had the element of surprise, but once the troops got their shit together they were slaying Ewoks left and right...

I think it was mentioned or implied in the dialogue, but the empire's shield generator was not overly swarmed with troops either because it was a primitive planet where the Ewoks would have no idea what the hell that was, and it would be easier for rebels to locate if they had five battalions of elite guards there.

They probably should have had some small super elite unit there... instead of a bunch of regular storm troopers and vehicles.

But that was really before the "game-ification" of movies where you have to put a mini boss fight in there.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Its not that. Its that the god damned teddy bears were there in the first place.

Does it help if you think of them having evolved from a badger like creature?

Also... bears are not to be fucked with.

I dunno, to me the bigger problem with RotJ was the throne room scene.

Like, the first time Luke was about to kill Vader and Emperor is all like "YES! DO IT! I, THE EVILEST GUY EVER, WANT YOU TO KILL HIM" and Luke was like "Oh right" it could have just been a cheesy villain brainfart. But the ninety-eight other times just made him into a complete buffoon.

Dark_Arbron posted...

RoS deserves more sympathy in that regard. It had to try and pick up the pieces, whereas what TLJ tried was a terrible idea to begin with.

This is true. It was obvious a mile away, but 3 different directors (2nded up being 2), wit no Kevin Feige type making sure there was cohesion or continuity between the films guaranteed a mess.

That said, RoS is still full of sins, the biggest being the Palpatine ass-pull. Just Saturday-morning cartoon levels of lazy and bad.

The story was an obvious retread but it at least did introduce new characters I generally was caring about. That was the high point in the new trilogy. After that basically all good will had been sabotaged. The Rise of Skywalker was basically a popcorn movie. Which I saw it once, but I remember not being completely annoyed like I was after the second one.

Dark_Arbron posted...

RoS deserves more sympathy in that regard. It had to try and pick up the pieces, whereas what TLJ tried was a terrible idea to begin with.

No, anyone who blames TLJ for what they didn't like in the DST misses or ignores the real problem.

If DST is a house, TFA is a cracked basement, TLJ is a raised first-floor, and TROS is a flat roof. The problem started with TFA's basement.
.

Toonstrack posted...

The Last Jedi is the best saga film released since ESB.

The people who blame TLJ for the DST's problems are like the people who blamed TESB for the OT's problems.

Where are those people, now? *crickets*