Current Events > C/D: Force Awakens is a nostalgia pandering mess

(+) Yeah! (+)

andri_g posted...

No, anyone who blames TLJ for what they didn't like in the DST misses or ignores the real problem.

TLJ subverted a lot of what TFA setup. It also did huge damage to Luke's character and otherwise was nonsensical (that slow ship space chase...). It deserves the scorn it gets...with the actors playing Luke and Finn in particular not liking the movie either.

andri_g posted...

The problem started with TFA's basement.

The writers didn't even have Rey's parentage nailed down by the time filming of the trilogy started. If you want to extend the analogy, the foundation wasn't set correctly.

Charged151 posted...

TLJ subverted a lot of what TFA setup. It also did huge damage to Luke's character and otherwise was nonsensical (that slow ship space chase...). It deserves the scorn it gets...with the actors playing Luke and Finn in particular not liking the movie either.

The writers didn't even have Rey's parentage nailed down by the time filming of the trilogy started. If you want to extend the analogy, the foundation wasn't set correctly.

TFA set up that damage to Luke's character. Luke is hiding like Yoda while a Palpatinesque Sith Lord is reconquering the galaxy. There was never going to be a satisfying answer to why, which is why TFA never attempted to answer it. TFA easily could've had been written so that Resistance already knew why he left.

Snoke was equally unsatisfying. In interviews they promised Snoke & Knights were totally something new, but they gave zero details showcasing how they were different. Doing the same thing while promising it's different with no idea of how it's different is not a formula for long-term success.

TFA wrote Rey's abandonment as important to her character arc without them ever internally knowing why she was abandoned. The author's of TFA not knowing the crucial plot details that took place before TFA is them setting cracked foundation dooming the house to fail.

TFA would've worked if it was the first entry in the series. You don't need to know how Anakin turned evil or where Palpatine came from or how the Jedi lost so much ground to enjoy the OT. Empire did not answer any of those questions. The expectation of Last Jedi to answer TFA's vague set up doomed it to be unsatisfying. TFA shouldn't rely on other movies to connect it to the series.

I don't think so.

TFA hit a lot of the same beats as A New Hope, but also made it abundantly clear that it was going off in a different direction. Rey's character is not at all Luke's, and her flaws aren't the same as Luke's. Kylo Ren is absolutely not Darth Vader, and all of these things will be going in a different direction. Because for whatever reason, we needed to have Han Solo back, and Luke Skywalker back and Leia back, it kind of makes sense to take all of these characters, and have them carry similar beats as during their movies, while leading into new things for our new characters.

Though, given Disney chickened out and ended the series with a bad rehash and throwing away all of the interesting things TFA and TLJ tried to set up, I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking Force Awakens is just a cheap nostalgia grab.

Proto_Spark posted...

TFA hit a lot of the same beats as A New Hope, but also made it abundantly clear that it was going off in a different direction. Rey's character is not at all Luke's, and her flaws aren't the same as Luke's.

And Rey's abandonment was dealt with well in TLJ. She doesn't need to be someone special - her parents were drunks or a******s or whatever who didn't care about her and pawned her off for beer money. This is literally the worst answer Rey could have gotten. It's absolutely crushing to Rey's entire character and literally the thing that almost lets Kylo Ren bring her to the dark side. Backtracking and making Rey a Palpatine instead verifies all of Rey's insecurities and lets her continue believing that she was abandoned for good reason.

Arc about feeling trapped to a backwater planet because of family reasons, but then gets pushed into joining the galactic conflict. Gains and loses a mentor. Leaves to go train with a Jedi Master in hiding to be set up as the one to defeat the big bad of the trilogy. How is that a different trajectory? Rey's dark side temptations are much stronger than what Luke faced but that was a Last Jedi add and not in TFA. What flaws did she have in TFA?

Her abandonment issues continuing into Last Jedi is well handled, but that's a strength of Last Jedi and not thanks to TFA. TFA seemed to be happy to say her abandonment issues were over now that she has a new found family.

Kylo Ren is absolutely not Darth Vader, and all of these things will be going in a different direction.

Snoke is just another hack who's trying to fill Palpatine's role despite obviously not fitting in it - which is exactly Kylo Ren's entire character arc. He doesn't need to be anything special, and he shouldn't be another Palpatine-esque villain, because Snoke isn't that person. Having just another big bad to overcome would be boring - like it was when they brought Palpatine back.

TFA villains are worse pretender versions of the original film. How is Snoke not a Palpatine-esque villain? What in TFA set him up to be anything different? Snoke is boring which is why I agree with Last Jedi's treatment of him.

Have you seen Ashoka? That's setting up new villains. The evil force users in that have new never seen before powers. Then there's a former Jedi turned neutral assassin for hire that's very different from Vader in an interesting way. Kylo is different from Vader in that he's less threatening, but a less threatening villain is not a more interesting avenue to pursue.

Because for whatever reason, we needed to have Han Solo back, and Luke Skywalker back and Leia back, it kind of makes sense to take all of these characters, and have them carry similar beats as during their movies, while leading into new things for our new characters.

Their treatment is the worst part of TFA. Everyone had a reset button and lost all their progress from the OT. Han lost all his growth and is back to a smuggler wanted dead by the rest of the underworld. Leia instead of being a statesmen leading galactic politics is back to a rebellion leader. Luke technically is in a new spot but only so we could return the Jedi to the exact spot. Luke defeated Palpatine by not fighting, his New Order coming to terms with that not always being successful would've been a new and interesting arc.

JTilly posted...

Absolutely awful movie, same with The Rise of Skywalker.

TLJ only and Rogue One are the only half decent Disney SW films

I still can't believe people think the Last Jedi is good.

3/4 of the movie is a low speed pursuit between two ships while the main characters are off on a side mission that supposedly has massive ramifications for the chase and ends up being a giant nothingburger.

Princess Leia in space was dumb. So was Admiral Fucking Akbar dying in literally that same scene to absolutely zero fanfare.

Poe's your mom jokes.

The giant ship with massive cannons decides to target the almost empty stationary base on the planet's surface instead of literally the FLAGSHIP OF THE RESISTENCE FLEET that is simply...sitting there being loaded with high ranking resistance members and personnel, just waiting to be vaporized.

The bombing run was dumb as fuck. I know what it was meant to invoke, but since TIE bombers have existed for 50 fucking years it makes no sense to have big, slow, cumbersome bombers. Plus, are the bombs magnetic? How exactly do they "fall" out of a ship with no gravity?

Another weird space thing. Why does Snoke's ship lob projected energy attacks at the rebel ship? There's no gravity in space, those shots would just fly away on whatever trajectory they started on.

And anyone bitching about callbacks in the other movies shouldn't ignore the ones here too, especially the salt planet/Hoth/walkers scene.

mybbqrules posted...

And anyone b****ing about callbacks in the other movies shouldn't ignore the ones here too, especially the salt planet/Hoth/walkers scene.

Last Jedi has many scenes from Empire. Some producer probably assumed "if it worked for TFA then why wouldn't it work again?"

• There's the walker scene you mentioned
• Start movie with a rebel base escape to hyperspace, but plot twist escape is harder than it looks
• Jedi Master in hiding is reluctant to train new protagonist student as they fear they'll turn to the dark side. Old friend (force ghost/droid) convinces them otherwise. Training is cut short, partly because of a message through the force that their friends are in danger.
• The lightsaber is duel is a mashup of 5/6: what if the "Luke join me to overthrow the Emperor" line from 5 happened in the setting of the battle in 6 where there is an opportunity for Vader to act on that impulse?
• The casino planet is Cloud City, a place full of wealthy people aiming to stay neutral in the war. In both places we meet a shady character for help that betrays the party.

Cotton_Eye_Joe posted...

Confirm

you seriously dislike ir more than the 2 that came after it? unbelievable. The 2 that came after might be the 2 worst sw movies ever

It really makes no sense that Last Jedi is so much like Empire. The Empire was dealt a massive blow in New Hope but end of the day theyre still a galactic wide government. The First Order isnt, they have control of just one corner of the galaxy. They dealt the New Republic a massive blow but Pearl Harbor didnt affect the US Atlantic fleet. Theres still ship yards in Corellia and smaller divisions stationed elsewhere. With the collapse of New Republic, individual planetary leaders are going to by and large turn to Leia over new Palpatine. Why did her experience as a statesman accomplish nothing between TFA & Last Jedi?

Because TFA was a nostalgia pondering mess and thats the lesson the producers learned. They started with Empire framework to repeat the formula. They did more tweaks in Empire to LJ conversion. LJ is a mess with some unforced errors but a lot of its problems started with the faulty foundation that is TFA.