Current Events > Hot take: religious texts should be in school libraries and should be taught in

(+) Yeah! (+)

AloneIBreak posted...

American history isn't taught with honesty, but I certainly hope you don't think we should skip the teaching of the subject entirely.

American history isn't taught with honesty which is a different problem all together.

Your want of even more religion being taught doesn't change my point that its text being taught to children would be abused as most of the country favors talking about how good and great Christianity is. While anything non Christian is characterized as either negative (like Islam), or less than.

Most of the country still thinks you can't have morals without Christianity in your life. Such reasoning would reflect in one's teachings.
Both Republicans and Democrats as a majority favor Christianity. With Republicans in particular pushing to end the separation of church (more specifically Christianity) and state.
The bad things Christianity has brought to America is absolutely not openly and widely discussed on the national stage, and more importantly accepted. As even bringing up the bad things religion (more specifically Christianity) has done to America is met with hard pushback and often deflecting, dodging, or quick mention because many don't want to focus on the bad for too long.

Sure, as long as it's also taught that genocide was conducted by people in the name of these religious texts.

But we know that won't happen.

Strider102 posted...

Sure, as long as it's also taught that genocide was conducted by people in the name of these religious texts.

But we know that won't happen.

That should be taught as well.

Realistically, this will 100% be abused to try and push Christianity. In addition, there are enough racist dickhead parents will will have an aneurysm at the thought of their precious baby learning about what those darkies do!!11!1

However, I'm more or less on board with the concept. I'd split the subject in 2 though. One class would be teaching about the actual religion, including core tenants and beliefs, major festivals and events and the context for all of these. The other class would effectively be rolled in with history and teach the effects that these religions have had throughout history. For example, Christianity is inseparably entwined with the history and development of Europe, as is Islam with Northern Africa and the Middle East.

Obviously there's way too many religions and sects to cover them all, but there should be more than enough time to go through Christianity, Islam, Judaism (mostly due to it's role in preceding the previous 2), Hinduism and Buddhism. I'd love to see Zoroastrianism, Sikhism and Paganism on that list too, but there's a limit to how much time is available and ultimately that should be focused on the most impactful ones.

This should be framed as "This is what was important to these cultures"

I'm not opposed to the idea of an elective religious class that studies various books. As long as

-We talk about how they have changed over time and the different meanings they have taken (and don't shy away from the really shitty things like how the Bible was used to justify slavery)

- We talk about the criticisms and the historiography of the books. How and when they were written, for what purpose and by whom. And the actual history of it, not the revisionist history that people ascribe it to. Like how Revelations was likely not written by the Apostle John etc.

No. It's one thing to teach about religions in world history and social events, but not texts. That should be left to the parents at home. This is because it will refuse to be fair in terms of representing other religions. If parents want their kids to learn religious text then they can teach that shit at home.

We teach lots of mythology in school, so is this take really that hot?

RuneterranSnap posted...

Nothing dumbass about it and there hasn't been any legitimate criticism of it.

But it is a dumb idea. Look at separation of church and state. Look at the dumb ass fanatics who want to force feed everyone their religious beliefs.

Lil_Bit83 posted...

No. It's one thing to teach about religions in world history and social events, but not texts. That should be left to the parents at home. This is because it will refuse to be fair in terms of representing other religions. If parents want their kids to learn religious text then they can teach that shit at home.

Learning what's actually in them is important, and also integral to teaching their context for literature and culture in general.

Lil_Bit83 posted...

But it is a dumb idea. Look at separation of church and state. Look at the dumb ass fanatics who want to force feed everyone their religious beliefs.

Separation of church and state has nothing to do with this. It doesn't ban education about the texts, it bans public schools teaching the actual religion.

RuneterranSnap posted...

Learning what's actually in them is important, and also integral to teaching their context for literature and culture in general.

And I say again no. You think they're gonna teach Hindu or pagan or Native American or Buddhist texts without throwing an immature bitch fit and demonizing them? They're not. And I'm having a hard time believing you don't want Christianity shoved down kids throats at this point. Religion and spirituality must stay privately taught in homes and places of worship.

RuneterranSnap posted...

Separation of church and state has nothing to do with this. It doesn't ban education about the texts, it bans public schools teaching the actual religion.

Things such as religion have no place being in a place of learning.

LightHawKnight posted...

Pffft.

Thats a low wage opinion.

RyukSan posted...

American history isn't taught with honesty which is a different problem all together of wanting religious text to be taught to children.

Your want of even more religion being taught doesn't change my point that its text being taught to children would be abused as most of the country favors talking about how good and great Christianity is. While anything non Christian is characterized as either negative (like Islam), or less than.

Most of the country still thinks you can't have morals without Christianity in your life. Some think morals wouodnt exist without it, especially Christianity. Such reasoning would reflect in one's teachings on so called impacts.
Both Republicans and Democrats as a majority favor Christianity. With Republicans in particular pushing to end the separation of church (more specifically Christianity) and state. Totalitarian rule is a looming agenda with Republicans. Republicans are literally pushing for more Christianity in schools, amd yet we have people here acting like an already movement for more Christianity to children won't be abused.
The bad things Christianity has brought to America is absolutely not openly and widely discussed on the national stage, and more importantly accepted. As even bringing up the bad things religion (more specifically Christianity) has done to America is met with hard pushback and often deflecting, dodging, or quick mention because many don't want to focus on the bad for too long.

We can sit here and sing kumbuya that the bad should be taught and widely accepted in children schools, and that the bad shouldnt be glossed over to focus more on the good. But we are seeing live and in color it's not, as most of the country clearly doesn't want to paint Christianity to be overly bad even when touching on the bad, as a huge focus is placed on the good instead of the bad.

Either dishonesty is grounds for not covering a subject at all or it's not. Implicit in your argument is the assumption that incorrectly taught religion would have worse outcomes than incorrectly taught American history, but I think that's a mistake.

Beveren_Rabbit posted...

it's like people aren't even reading the TC. She's not saying that schools should start preaching religion. She's saying that grade school students should be able to learn about religion.

TC doesn't want to listen to reason. Why should we listen at this point?

Xatrion posted...

Things such as religion have no place being in a place of learning.

So you shouldn't teach how influential like the Bible was to literature?

Xatrion posted...

Things such as religion have no place being in a place of learning.

They absolutely do when talking about cultural context and their impact on history.

Lil_Bit83 posted...

And I say again no.

Then you're wrong.

Lil_Bit83 posted...

And I'm having a hard time believing you don't want Christianity shoved down kids throats at this point.

That's a you problem.

Lil_Bit83 posted...

TC doesn't want to listen to reason. Why should we listen at this point?

You haven't given any reason to listen to.

It's definitely possible, and fruitful, to teach religious texts non-religiously. Most universities have degree programs like this. I took a non-religious class on Islam, for instance.

We could absolutely be doing this in high school or grade school. But the real issue is that time is not infinite, so what are you replacing? I imagine some high schools already offer electives like this.

RuneterranSnap posted...

Separation of church and state has nothing to do with this. It doesn't ban education about the texts, it bans public schools teaching the actual religion.

You're nothing but a fanatic who can't listen, won't understand and are being incredibly dishonest. The only reason you are arguing and refusing to address the obvious issues is because the vast majority of posters has seen and called you out on your lies and pretense at caring. Trust me you're not clever and very blatant about your motives.

At my highschool, a world religion class was an elective course.

Lil_Bit83 posted...

You're nothing but a fanatic who can't listen, won't understand and are being incredibly dishonest. The only reason you are arguing and refusing to address the obvious issues is because the vast majority of posters has seen and called you out on your lies and pretense at caring. Trust me you're not clever and very blatant about your motives.

And what motives do I, someone who is not and never has been religious, have, hmm?

Murphiroth posted...

Please indicate to me where I said that.

Shocker, he can't.

I don't even disagree with the idea in principle, lmao, just pointed out that it's likely to be heavily abused, but apparently even slight criticism of the idea just isn't allowed.

Beveren_Rabbit posted...

they aren't made up stories.

Got news for you: If the historical Jesus or the person he is based on is real, he did not come back to life after three days and haunt random people before re-ascending to Godhood to close a loophole he made in the old testament.

Also, the Biblical Flood and Creation story are fables and should not be taken seriously.

Also, even the revered story of Exodus was mostly cobbled together from other stories and mostly made up how it appears in the Bible.

RuneterranSnap posted...

non-religious contexts.

Teach how and why they've impacted the world culturally and religiously, and get them in the libraries for any curious kids that want to read them.

I was given a course in 10th grade on The Bible as literature and it was one of the best courses I had in high school english because it did a LOT to show the influences of both specific stories and general story archetypes. It shouldn't be taboo, so long as no text is getting particularly preferential treatment and the religious beliefs aren't what's being taught.

why do you believe this tc? Do you believe that intelligent design should also be taught in biology classes...etc...?

Lil_Bit83 posted...

Lil_Bit83 posted...
You're nothing but a fanatic who can't listen, won't understand and are being incredibly dishonest. The only reason you are arguing and refusing to address the obvious issues is because the vast majority of posters has seen and called you out on your lies and pretense at caring. Trust me you're not clever and very blatant about your motives.

FANATIC? Good lord, you people need to find some peace in your lives.

GranTurismo posted...

why do you believe this tc? Do you believe that intelligent design should also be taught in biology classes...etc...?

.....No, did you even read what you quoted?

I don't want the beliefs taught. I want how the texts have influenced society and culture to be taught, and not just the Bible.

RuneterranSnap posted...

.....No, did you even read what you quoted?

I don't want the beliefs taught. I want how the texts have influenced society and culture to be taught, and not just the Bible.

oh are you personally a very religious guy?

AloneIBreak posted...

Either dishonesty is grounds for not covering a subject at all or it's not. Implicit in your argument is the assumption that incorrectly taught religion would have worse outcomes than incorrectly taught American history, but I think that's a mistake.

Whataboutism is not a good excuse for why you think we absolutely so desperately need your religious text taught in school.

If you want to discuss the problems of American history, that's an entirely different discussion that we both agree needs fixing.

A problem completely separate from the idea of insisting America needs religious which no doubt will be mostly Christianity text taught in school when we already have approx 40% of the country in support of Christianity and no other religion being for forced onto children.

With more than that percentage not fond of openly embracing the many downright evil, bigoted, violent sexist, beliefs that Christianity because it's too uncomfortable to acknowledge. Many would rather focus more on the positives.

GranTurismo posted...

oh are you personally a very religious guy?

I'm not religious at all, only times I've ever gone to church were when a couple of my past exes invited me.

RyukSan posted...

Whataboutism is not a good excuse for why we absolutely so desperately need your religious text taught in school.

If you want to discuss the problems of American history, that's an entirely different discussion that we both agree needs fixing.

A problem completely separate from the idea of insisting America needs religious text taught in school when we already have approx 40% of the country in support of Christianity and no other religion being for forced onto children.

This isn't just about Christianity and doesn't involve religion being forced on kids. Either address the actual topic and suggestions or leave the discussion.

RyukSan posted...

Whataboutism is not a good excuse for why we absolutely so desperately need your religious text taught in school.

Get your manipulative dishonesty out of here and stop being a bigot.

A discussion going on for longer than a tik tok video is not indicative of desperation or obsession.

I could get onboard with a comparative religions course for high school that laid out the major faiths and then compared and contrasted them. Would ideally lead to better understanding.

That's probably an AP course though and would need to be standardized across the country (ha!).

World religion classes are indeed taught in academia though. Some highschools have it as an elective course (mines did, even though I didn't take it) and colleges as well. These classes are taught in a way that doesn't involve a preacher telling you you're going to hell for not believing in Jesus Christ. It's very possible to have a course about religious text without it being a Sunday school. I'm an atheist myself, but we don't need to go full on fedora hat about this.

I would only be o k with this if it was made explicitly clear that all religious works are works of fiction

RuneterranSnap posted...

This isn't just about Christianity and doesn't involve religion being forced on kids. Either address the actual topic and suggestions or leave the discussion.

This is about Christianity being forced on to children. You just don't want to acknowledge that, because like many religious types, talking about the bad is a huge nono. Christianity makes up the majority of the United States and for reasons myself and others have listed, it would be no doubt abused to push more Christianity

Your type wants to dance around the bad by insisting people keep discussing it at a bare minimum.

The topic and it's suggestions are bad for all the reasons I already listed. It would be abused, and people like you absolutely would sweep the abuse preferential good treatment towards Christianity, and skewed pro Christianity agenda all under the rug. It's evident even in your own topic as you tap dance around we have a political party (Republican) that makes up 40% of the country is heavily in favor of forcing children to be more Christian. With Democrats being heavily pro Christian as well, just not as bad as Republicans.

We have lawmakers in Congress who would more than love to embrace your foot in the door idea to usher in more Christianity.

Your type claims you want people to talk about the bad too, but your actions show you don't really want to focus on it all that much. People like you would rather silence people who point that out.

People are literally arguing with their own imagination here.

RyukSan posted...

This is about Christianity being forced on to children. You just don't want to acknowledge that, because like many religious types, talking about the bad is a huge nono. Christianity makes up the majority of the United States and for reasons myself and others have listed, it would be no doubt abused to push more Christianity

Your type wants to dance around the bad by insisting people keep discussing it at a bare minimum.

The topic and it's suggestions are bad for all the reasons I already listed. It would be abused, and people like you absolutely would sweep the abuse preferential good treatment towards Christianity, and skewed pro Christianity agenda all under the rug. It's evident even in your own topic as you tap dance around we have a political party (Republican) that makes up 40% of the country is heavily in favor of forcing children to be more Christian. With Democrats being heavily pro Christian as well, just not as bad as Republicans.

We have lawmakers in Congress who would more than love to embrace your foot in the door idea to usher in more Christianity.

Your type claims you want people to talk about the bad too, but your actions show you don't really want to focus on it all that much. People like you would rather silence people who point that out.

yeah i agree with this. This does mostly only apply to christianity especially if it's in the u.s. Why doesn't it apply to other relgions as well, though?

Better idea: Keep your death cult out of our schools. Keep your cult out of our public offices and our school boards. Reinforce the separation of church and state, and let the Christcrackers go screw.

Wrong

ChainsawFerret posted...

Better idea: Keep your death cult out of our schools. Keep your cult out of our public offices and our school boards. Reinforce the separation of church and state, and let the Christcrackers go screw.

lol more of that mindless hate to the point they can't even read

RyukSan posted...

This is about Christianity being forced on to children.

It objectively isn't and since you can't follow instructions you're not welcome in the discussion.

RyukSan posted...

Whataboutism is not a good excuse

I'm honestly surprised you didn't resort to the ol' "whataboutism" defense sooner. Good for getting out of an argument, poor for strengthening your point. All your criticism applies to American history, but you don't want to address it because assuming you're sincere and consistent, it undermines your logic.

for why you think we absolutely so desperately need your religious text taught in school.

I'm an atheist. Last I checked, we don't have a religious text.

If you want to discuss the problems of American history, that's an entirely different discussion that we both agree needs fixing.

Excellent, and in like manner the problem of the proper teaching of religion is not insoluble. Now we're getting somewhere.

A problem completely separate from the idea of insisting America needs religious which no doubt will be mostly Christianity text taught in school when we already have approx 40% of the country in support of Christianity and no other religion being for forced onto children.

I really don't think teaching kids about how the Bible has influenced culture is likely to promote any positive truth value regarding Christian dogma.

At any rate, by the time the kids reach late high school, there's virtually no chance (in the United States at least) they haven't already been exposed to Christianity and most will have already decided to believe it or not. I would rather kids learn about the influence of religion in schools than from their religious parents or churches.

RuneterranSnap posted...

lol more of that mindless hate to the point they can't even read

It objectively isn't and since you can't follow instructions you're not welcome in the discussion.

Certainly doing a fine good job there proving the below to be true.

RyukSan posted...

In truth, you made this topic seeking for those to agree with you and nothing more. Anyone not on board with your idea, you had no real plans to address them beyond maybe seeking a reason to block them (based on that last sentence of yours).

Hey, TC, I go where I please. And it ain't mindless hatred to keep the church out of schools Oh, right, it's actually a death cult.

ChainsawFerret posted...

Hey, TC, I go where I please. And it ain't mindless hatred to keep the church out of schools Oh, right, it's actually a death cult.

Nah you can keep up with the actual topic or you won't be going here anymore.

How about no and if kids are actually interested they can go to church after school.

RuneterranSnap posted...

Nah you can keep up with the actual topic or you won't be going here anymore.

Guess you'll just have to make me. You want to try to bring "holy books" into schools under the guise of secular learning. No, I've seen that show before, as a pretense to force bible study on students. I can keep up just fine, you're just working on false pretenses.

Keep your death cult books in the church.

Teaching about the beliefs and practices of a wide range of religions is a good thing. Don't leave people with no defence against bigotry, misinformation, and blood libels.

There's absolutely no need to teach religious texts, though, and the tone of lessons should be neutral and descriptive only.

Tyrant442001 posted...

How about no and if kids are actually interested they can go to church after school.

How about you actually read the topic so you can know what people are talking about?

ai123 posted...

There's absolutely no need to teach religious texts, though, and the tone of lessons should be neutral and descriptive only.

There is a need to at least partly teach them to discuss their relevance to literature, culture, and society.

RuneterranSnap posted...

There is a need to at least partly teach them to discuss their relevance to literature, culture, and society.

Not in literature.

Gilgamesh once went on a quest to solve mortality. Eventually he finds the gods who give him a tree that produces fruit that people can eat and live forever. He puts it down for a minute to go take a bath and while his back is turned, a snake eats it and it's gone forever.

Sound familiar to you?

Teaching the Bible actively encourages ignorance by obfuscating the original literary inspirations throughout history.