Current Events > seems wizards of the cost have pissed off the entire D & D community

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGfsbyNX-v4

seriously how do you get this out of touch

That's a 25 minute video dog

Old magical men anger pretentious nerds

Smashingpmkns posted...

That's a 25 minute video dog

You don't watch videos at 2x speed? Gross.

Wizards of the Cost got a chuckle out of me.

Can we get a tl;dw

ellis123 posted...

You don't watch videos at 2x speed? Gross.

That would make it a 12 and a half minute video dog. Way too long still.

And no I don't. Mfs sound like Ben Shapiro at 2x speed.

GeraldDarko posted...

Can we get a tl;dw

Hasbro greedy, nerds mad. Nerds somewhat justified. Maybe bad for whole hobby.

https://medium.com/@MyLawyerFriend/lets-take-a-minute-to-talk-about-d-d-s-open-gaming-license-ogl-581312d48e2f

BloodMoon7 posted...

Old magical men anger pretentious nerds

Nah. Its the woman CEO who came from microsoft whos ruining MTG and DnD trying to suck dry the fans.

CARRRNE_ASADA posted...

Nah. Its the woman CEO who came from microsoft whos ruining MTG and DnD trying to suck dry the fans.

I'm just making a joke about how the title sounds. I mean wizards of the coast? Wtf kind of name is that? Almost as cringe as Dungeons and Dragons.

BloodMoon7 posted...

I'm just making a joke about how the title sounds. I mean wizards of the coast? Wtf kind of name is that? Almost as cringe as Dungeons and Dragons.

Tbf its kinda cool since the company originated in Seattle...so they are literally from the coast.

D&D is a game that should be bringing people together and spurring them to use their imagination.

Smashingpmkns posted...

That's a 25 minute video dog

i listened to this video earlier today when i was getting my cardio in.

tl;dr, last year the WotC CEO said that he feels DnD is undermonetized compared to other forms of games and that he would like to see the type of recurring revenue stream you see in digital content for videogames in tabletop gaming. so now it's being announced that they are modifying their Open Game License system which allows people in the community to use the DnD rulebooks and framework and to make and run their own tabletop content and to use it royalty free in basically whatever way they want. this is now being called OGL 1.0, and the new OGL 1.1 makes things much more strict in how you are allowed to use the framework and mechanics and stuff, institutes a royalty fee that you have to pay if you make $750,000 revenue or above off the derivative works you've created using the DnD framework, and makes it so that you don't own any thing you create for that purpose and gives all the rights to WotC. and it also renders all OGL 1.0 licenses null and void.

and this is all amid WotC's parent company Hasbro having a bad quarter financially.

AldousIsDead posted...

Hasbro greedy, nerds mad. Nerds somewhat justified. Maybe bad for whole hobby.

Or good for the hobby. The outrage has already triggered at least three major companies to start working on alternative rulesets, and there's a huge emphasis on players who only know 5e to go back and start looking at other systems from the past (and the present).

Basically, we're seeing the exact same thing that happened to the industry in the 80s - TSR was on top of the world and D&D was the RPG - and then TSR tripped over its own dick so hard it fell into the Grand Canyon and died, while a hundred other (better) systems and settings moved in and took its place. A ton of great systems came out and thrived, TSR went bankrupt, and then WotC was able to buy the D&D rights from the corpse with all of their Magic: the Gathering money.

It'd be nice to see a competitive market again. Or a new White Wolf to rise as another juggernaut to come flying out of nowhere to become the #1 game over D&D (which is what happened in the 90s).

Here is a shorter video from a better channel

https://youtu.be/WKV6mLQiFH8

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Basically, we're seeing the exact same thing that happened to the industry in the 80s - TSR was on top of the world and D&D was the RPG - and then TSR tripped over its own dick so hard it fell into the Grand Canyon and died, while a hundred other (better) systems and settings moved in and took its place. A ton of great systems came out and thrived, TSR went bankrupt, and then WotC was able to buy the D&D rights from the corpse with all of their Magic: the Gathering money.

SFDebri did a good video essay series covering that mess

and wow its always fascinating to hear of the insanity that goes on in the corprate world while us normal folks just look at it and go "WTF"

WoC has been a sinking ship for a while. Magic isn't doing that hot either so this isn't suprising. The sad part is that there probolly is no way to stop them as this is legal. Even if new 3rd party DnD 5e stops being made there wont be anything to stop them.

sucks. I like see the new stuff people make. A lot of it is really cool.

DoesntMatter posted...

makes it so that you don't own any thing you create for that purpose and gives all the rights to WotC

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds really bad for groups like Critical Role. Does that mean they will no longer own the rights over their own shows/cartoons/merchandise?

devilminion posted...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds really bad for groups like Critical Role. Does that mean they will no longer own the rights over their own shows/cartoons/merchandise?

they cant loose rights to things made up until now as laws prevent such back changes

but going forward yep

Critical Role has enough gumption to challenge WotC on it's legal bullshit. It's small producers of homebrew content that will be put to the sword as it were.

Oh, and it doesn't even limit itself to just dnd players. Basically every system under the OGL (meaning plenty of other games) is at risk now.

AceMos posted...

they cant loose rights to things made up until now as laws prevent such back changes

but going forward yep

Well they can if they make anything new. The way the OGL 1.1 works is if you agree to it, it voids your 1.0 contracts. The only way to keep your 1.0 contracts is to essentially never make anything OGL ever again. This seems to be what many creators are choosing to do.

Rip vox machina and lodoss war?

Yeah they screwed the pooch here for real. Two of the biggest 3rd party developers officially announced today they'll be designing their own TTRPG game systems with very broad OGLs. This isn't two small time teams, either. Kobold Press is arguably *the* most prolific TTRPG content producer on the market, writing more books and modules than even WOTC. Very well produced, very well received products at that. MCDM Productions is run by Youtuber Matthew Colville, who runs DM training videos as well as producing independent content. And while Critical Role Productions has not said anything officially yet they will almost *certainly* produce their own game as well. Matt Mercer built an entire game universe from the ground up that is probably the 2nd most played setting in the world (only after Forgotten Realms, the main official D&D universe) and they absolutely have the resources to make it happen considering Critical Role is hands down the most popular anything in the history of TTRPGs.

IDK exactly what Wizards Of The Coast (or more likely parent company Hasbro Toys) was thinking but I 100000% bet they didn't expect to jump start 2+ competitors who have the following to potentially push them off the top of the TTRPG pile.

DoesntMatter posted...

institutes a royalty fee that you have to pay if you make $750,000 revenue or above off the derivative works you've created using the DnD framework

This is underselling how bad it is. The royalty fee is 25% of GROSS sales, IE sales before expenses are pulled out of them. If you're wondering, producing actual physical books has one of the highest costs to produce to sales ratio of pretty much anything. Some products do not even see 25% of their gross turn into profit, meaning the people developing stuff like that would literally be losing money because they'd be paying so much in royalties

Kafkaf posted...

Rip vox machina and lodoss war?

Vox Machina doesn't have anything D&D aside from the face that it's an obvious rip off I don't see any any explicit D&D branding shit.

MJOLNRVII posted...

https://medium.com/@MyLawyerFriend/lets-take-a-minute-to-talk-about-d-d-s-open-gaming-license-ogl-581312d48e2f

Ironically, it was OGL that destroyed any real competition D&D had. Twenty years ago.
Way to kill the golden goose, dumbasses.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Vox Machina doesn't have anything D&D aside from the face that it's an obvious rip off I don't see any any explicit D&D branding shit.

its literally an adaption of DnD campaign

they're cutting open the golden goose, and im pretty sure that they are fully aware of it, but everything nowadays is about burning long term viability down to the ground to turn a good quarterly profit

MarcyWarcy posted...

they're cutting open the golden goose, and im pretty sure that they are fully aware of it, but everything nowadays is about burning long term viability down to the ground to turn a good quarterly profit

thats capitalism focused on endless growth

I like long YongYea videos, they're something to put on when I'm playing Runescape for long periods of time. That being said, I'm at work right now.

Is the licensing shit they're talking about for like streamed or pre-recorded games? Like, you use a DnD ruleset for a campaign that you're airing to others and Hasbro demands a flat rate fee if you don't want to get shut down?

It wouldn't surprise me if companies like Hasbro began treating board games like TV shows or whatever. What's that, you're playing Monopoly on stream? Someone might copy the board and make their own tokens and play it for free! Pay up, Bucko, or it'll be off to the debtor's prison for you!

KhlavicLanguage posted...

magic sucks

dnd sucks

woc sucks

people who play this shit are all a buncha weirdo band kids

you can tell someone's a fucking dnd player when they literally cannot speak in a normal volume/tone and instead DECLARE! every sentence they say like some fucking dweeb in a wizard hat

everyone who got bullied for this shit deserved it

be a normal sex-having person and play competitive pvp video games

Its amazing how I know your not joking and you always have the weirdest takes on things. I guess all life has to be miserable?

ToadallyAwesome posted...

you always have the weirdest takes on things

wouldnt know anything about your takes, try standing out a little more or being less invested in this place

MrMallard posted...

Is the licensing shit they're talking about for like streamed or pre-recorded games? Like, you use a DnD ruleset for a campaign that you're airing to others and Hasbro demands a flat rate fee if you don't want to get shut down?

Not at all. Short version is WOTC released D&D 3rd Edition with something they called the Open Gaming License. This was basically permission for anyone to make and publish content based on the D&D IP. Now, 20 years later MANY people have used this and produce content for D&D. Now WOTC wants to amend the OGL so that they get a huge cut of sales, get a free license to use 3rd party content as they see fit without needing to pay royalties to the people who made it, rights to rework or revoke the OGL without notice, and a bunch of other draconian shit (some of which may flat out not be legal).

Basically they gave everyone else permission to use the D&D toolbox to go make cool stuff. Now, after the fact, they're trying to make people pay them for getting to use that toolbox even though the toolbox was supposed to be free forever (and the original OGL has language to that effect).

So they're pulling the rug out from under everyone who's used DnD 3rd Edition and monetizing their content without their permission.

Can't believe my initial guess was less shitty than what's actually going on.

KhlavicLanguage posted...

magic sucks

dnd sucks

woc sucks

people who play this shit are all a buncha weirdo band kids

you can tell someone's a fucking dnd player when they literally cannot speak in a normal volume/tone and instead DECLARE! every sentence they say like some fucking dweeb in a wizard hat

everyone who got bullied for this shit deserved it

be a normal sex-having person and play competitive pvp video games

What the fuck?

PMarth2002 posted...

What the fuck?

Dude is weird. Don't give him attention

MrMallard posted...

So they're pulling the rug out from under everyone who's used DnD 3rd Edition and monetizing their content without their permission.

Can't believe my initial guess was less shitty than what's actually going on.

For me the "WotC owns your shit" clause is a deal breaker. If that was the only change I'd drop it immediately.

Tyranthraxus posted...

For me the "WotC owns your shit" clause is a deal breaker. If that was the only change I'd drop it immediately.

Warcraft 3 reforged added the same clause, theyre still salty fans created dota for free.

Kafkaf posted...

Warcraft 3 reforged added the same clause, theyre still salty fans created dota for free.

The difference here is Blizzard never said "OK, here's the toolbox for Warcraft 3. You have our explicit permission to make your own games and owe us nothing for it!" and then 20 years later change their minds.

Let's be clear, here. By all rights WOTC would be entitled to a share of royalties on A LOT of products if it hadn't been for the OGL explicitly saying creators would not need to pay. And if they were asking for a small, reasonable slice of the pie then people might be willing to work with them in order to continue access to the D&D system. What WOTC has done, instead, is cartoonishly cut off a small slice of pie and then take the rest of the pie leaving the small slice for others. Or in some cases, where gross sales do not translate into at least 25% net profit, taking the entire pie and telling 3rd party developers they still owe more pie.

Even if they try to walk it back to a more reasonable update to the OGL at this point few, if any, people are going to want to roll with it. They have burnt A LOT of bridges in this process to the point they've started creating competitors with the resources to take away their market share

Shadow-Bolt posted...

Let's be clear, here. By all rights WOTC would be entitled to a share of royalties on A LOT of products if it hadn't been for the OGL explicitly saying creators would not need to pay.

Arguably, they wouldn't have. Because without the OGL those products would likely still have been released, but would have either been purely system-agnostic, or utilized proprietary systems of their own. Which is literally how the industry worked for decades before the OGL.

All the OGL really did was cement the d20 ruleset as the industry default (which benefited WotC/D&D), and encouraged creators to work within the D&D system rather than create rivals to it (which benefited WotC/D&D).



Ubergeneral3 posted...

WoC has been a sinking ship for a while. Magic isn't doing that hot either so this isn't surprising.

And in both cases, it's for the same reason. Execs higher up in Hasbro who don't actually understand anything WotC does went "It's cool that you're making us lots of money, but now we want you to make us all of the money." To which the fanbase for their products replied with "Now you will make none of the money."

Hasbro wants to overmonetize WotC products in the same way that developers are ruining the video game industry with microtransactions and live-service bullshit. But the end result is that WotC is going to eat a metric ton of shit and the recent D&D boom is likely going to die off exactly the same way it did the last time corporate bullshit ruined it (and straight up killed TSR).

Fuck it just boycott WotC and buying any of their products. I know you guys love D&D or MtG but they aren't stopping their bullshit until profits bottom out.

Number090684 posted...

Fuck it just boycott WotC and buying any of their products. I know you guys love D&D or MtG but they aren't stop their bullshit until profits bottom out.

Probably best to boycott them permanently. Let both IPs die off and be nothing more than a distant memory. It's the only way to send a true message.

You do tend to upset the community when you demand you have rights to anything to make within your game and they can't sue you if you decide to take what they made, sell it, and then cancel your contract with the person who made the item originally. Which is all things WoTC can do with the new OGL.

They tried something similar with DND 4E except it was a different agreement and people just went and made their own games using the 3.5 SRD instead. Eventually they gave that up and we have 5E with the 5E SRD.

The funny thing is there are ways WoTC could have monetized DnD better. The official dnd site has no store. You can't buy dice or minis through WoTC, you have to go through a 3rd party.

VTT's are popular and WoTC has no official VTT so they are losing out on money to 3rd parties who sell VTT services.

Plus buying books doesn't get you access to the content anywhere, so you have to rebuy books to use through online sites like dndbeyond. No reason espically since they own dndbeyond now that buying the books doesn't give you a license to use the book anywhere.

Not to mention they could become a steam for dnd homebrew. Let people sell homebrew content through them and take a % of sales.

WoTC is behind the times in the digital market place. They could be offering so much more than they do for DnD.

MarcyWarcy posted...

they're cutting open the golden goose, and im pretty sure that they are fully aware of it, but everything nowadays is about burning long term viability down to the ground to turn a good quarterly profit

Kind of like a metaphor for what we're doing to the planet...

But on a smaller note I'm pissed at what this does to mutants and masterminds

Tmaster148 posted...

The funny thing is there are ways WoTC could have monetized DnD better.

WotC is behind the times in the digital market place.

The core of the future plan for One D&D (aka 6e) was to make a huge push to revolve everything around online play and D&D Beyond, and then aggressively monetize it. Something people were already grumbling about before the OGL bullshit hit the fan.

Saw this from moistcr1tikal, messed up by Wizards

GhostFaceLeaks posted...

Probably best to boycott them permanently. Let both IPs die off and be nothing more than a distant memory. It's the only way to send a true message.

I agree with this too.

BloodMoon7 posted...

Old magical men anger pretentious nerds

Lolol

I'm not watching a long video. What are they pissed off about this time?