Current Events > seems wizards of the cost have pissed off the entire D & D community

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Ranting__Nord
01/12/23 12:00:11 PM
#53:


Am I wrong in this thought: You can't copyright game systems, just proper names for things, so you can basically Xerox 5e and change things like Tasha's Hideous Laughter to Hideous Laughter and call it a new system? They certainly don't own Elf or Dwarf or fireball.

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Questionmarktarius
01/12/23 12:00:35 PM
#54:


Lil_Bit83 posted...
I'm not watching a long video. What are they pissed off about this time?

read this:
MJOLNRVII posted...
https://medium.com/@MyLawyerFriend/lets-take-a-minute-to-talk-about-d-d-s-open-gaming-license-ogl-581312d48e2f


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AldousIsDead
01/12/23 12:03:09 PM
#55:


I hate 5e anyway, standard is midrange clusterfuck right now, and commander is for fedora wearing manchildren.

Hasbro can fuck right off.

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Lil_Bit83
01/12/23 12:06:44 PM
#56:


Questionmarktarius posted...
read this:
I see. I don't play card games but yeah that seems like hasbro is overreaching.

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Foppe
01/12/23 12:08:54 PM
#57:


https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/2/9/5/AAA_aCAAEFTX.jpg

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lolife67
01/12/23 12:31:10 PM
#58:


Ranting__Nord posted...
Am I wrong in this thought: You can't copyright game systems, just proper names for things, so you can basically Xerox 5e and change things like Tasha's Hideous Laughter to Hideous Laughter and call it a new system? They certainly don't own Elf or Dwarf or fireball.
Yes and no. You're right on the first part but things like "beholder" and "illithid" are actually under copywrite, as well as gameplay (i.e. dice systems.)
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TwoDoorPC
01/12/23 12:31:55 PM
#59:


Smashingpmkns posted...
That's a 25 minute video dog

just do what yong does and read it on reddit

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Guns_of_Verdun
01/12/23 12:34:12 PM
#60:


GeraldDarko posted...
Can we get a tl;dw
You used to be able to use the D & D brand for free

Now they're saying they can take 25% of anything you earn

At the moment it's only for people making a fortune but there's nothing in the agreement that prevents then from coming after anyone

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Guns_of_Verdun
01/12/23 12:36:57 PM
#61:


Foppe posted...
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/2/9/5/AAA_aCAAEFTX.jpg
This is also terrible advice

D & D and Magic's anti consumer decisions have been because Hasbro is losing money

So they're milking whales

If the result is to stop playing D N D and Magic then all that will happen is they will get more anti-consumer and never return.

See loot-boxes and mobile gaming.


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ParanoidObsessive
01/12/23 1:16:03 PM
#62:


Guns_of_Verdun posted...
If the result is to stop playing D N D and Magic then all that will happen is they will get more anti-consumer and never return.

This is terrible advice

It's really not.

The problem is, if you keep paying into the corrupt system, they have zero motivation to change, so they'll still become more anti-consumer regardless. Refusing to vote with your wallet is akin to telling them you don't care how hard they beat you because you'll stay with them no matter what. At which point, why do they give a shit what you complain about? It's not like your complaints ever translate into anything meaningful.

There really isn't a good solution (short of everyone going around and taking the whales' credit cards away). Not supporting predatory practices means you may risk losing certain franchises or studios or devs or products entirely due to lack of perceived interest (or revenue), or an evolution to a system that entirely relies on whales (at which point it all basically just turns into online gambling). But supporting the people using predatory practices means you will never get anything but predatory practices.



Guns_of_Verdun posted...
See loot-boxes and mobile gaming.

Which only continue to exist because people don't stop buying games that exploit them, and keep feeding the machine.

At best, the game market has pushed back against some of the more extreme examples, but the end result is that the publishers become more subtle about milking you, because they absolutely know they can get away with it. Games like GTA Online (which generates like 50%+ of Rockstar's revenue solely through microtransactions) show that it doesn't matter how much you monetize your product, you will still pull enough audience to make it worth it. Same with mobile gaming. The market has proven that you will continue to pay, because nerds have terrible impulse control.

The youth of today never stop whining about capitalism, but a large part of the issue is that you actually have to take a degree of responsibility yourself. If you keep feeding money into a paper shredder because you lack impulse control, you can't really complain that it keeps taking your money.

Even the "Fuck the companies, pirate everything" crowd are still falling into the "I want this thing therefore I am entitled to this thing" trap. Which means devs don't see piracy as a moral stance, they see it (correctly) as a consumer being cheap. So rather than change their own behavior, they just have to figure out ways to prevent you from pirating (which is why draconian DRMs and always-online server-side mechanics have become so prevalent).

If people want actual positive change, people have to be willing to make personal sacrifices to force it into action.

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Questionmarktarius
01/12/23 1:18:09 PM
#63:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
There really isn't a good solution (short of everyone going around and taking the whales' credit cards away).
Let it die.
Eventually another company will pick up the IP, and maybe we'll get twenty years before it goes to shit all over again. That's how TSR imploding worked out.
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GreenMario
01/12/23 3:11:40 PM
#64:


I'll probably just play with the d&d books I already have

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Shadow-Bolt
01/12/23 4:21:40 PM
#65:


Guns_of_Verdun posted...
If the result is to stop playing D N D then all that will happen is they will get more anti-consumer and never return.


We are OK with them never returning. The community does not need D&D as much as WOTC needs the community, straight up. TSR learned that the hard way.

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Questionmarktarius
01/12/23 4:33:58 PM
#66:


Sometimes, the Internet Rage Machine actually accomplishes something useful:
https://gizmodo.com/dungeons-dragons-ogl-announcement-wizards-of-the-coast-1849981365
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FelineCyborg
01/12/23 4:35:15 PM
#67:


Remember when they messed with the race skills because people equated orcs to minority groups? So now it's problematic for an orc to have -2 intelligence

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TMOG
01/12/23 4:37:02 PM
#68:


Questionmarktarius posted...
Sometimes, the Internet Rage Machine actually accomplishes something useful:
https://gizmodo.com/dungeons-dragons-ogl-announcement-wizards-of-the-coast-1849981365
Bear in mind that this isn't them canceling the new OGL rollout. They're just delaying it and hoping that things cool down enough that they can do it in a month or so.
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AceMos
01/12/23 4:38:38 PM
#69:


FelineCyborg posted...
Remember when they messed with the race skills because people equated orcs to minority groups? So now it's problematic for an orc to have -2 intelligence
that is a problem thoe

its the planet of hats writing that most fantasy works are leaving behind

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TMOG
01/12/23 4:42:06 PM
#70:


FelineCyborg posted...
Remember when they messed with the race skills because people equated orcs to minority groups? So now it's problematic for an orc to have -2 intelligence
This was a good change though. Not just because of the racist implications, but because it also opens up so many more creative build options rather than pigeonholing specific race/class combinations as "viable", "unviable", and "the only one that's viable".

Pathfinder recently errata'd a similar rule in (you can either take the ancestry bonuses/penalties as listed, or do a flat two boosts to stats of your choosing) and I love it because it means now I can make a dwarf thaumaturge without capping at 16 Charisma and being worse than other thaumaturge builds just because I want my character to be a dwarf.
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Questionmarktarius
01/12/23 4:42:13 PM
#71:


TMOG posted...
Bear in mind that this isn't them canceling the new OGL rollout. They're just delaying it and hoping that things cool down enough that they can do it in a month or so.
A month or two is plenty of time to resurrect/develop the various other systems that, ironically, OGL chased out of the market.

Wizards is trying to replace a de facto monopoly with a de jure one, which is not going to happen.
Fuckin' GURPS may become relevant again. GURPS. Look what you did, Hasbro!
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Tmaster148
01/12/23 4:42:29 PM
#72:


FelineCyborg posted...
Remember when they messed with the race skills because people equated orcs to minority groups? So now it's problematic for an orc to have -2 intelligence

Are we talking player race? Because I think a player chosen race shouldn't get stat nerfs. The direction they have been going with the one d&d is to let the player pick the stat buffs they get regardless of race in their background.

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Blue_Dream87
01/12/23 4:45:32 PM
#73:


This is sadge. Makes me feel better I'll be playing Vampire: The Masquerade instead.

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Questionmarktarius
01/12/23 4:45:50 PM
#74:


TMOG posted...
This was a good change though. Not just because of the racist implications, but because it also opens up so many more creative build options rather than pigeonholing specific race/class combinations as "viable", "unviable", and "the only one that's viable".
Statmods were always junk anyway, for that latter reason.
It was just more of Gygax shoehoning idealism and Tolkien fanboyism into the game, similar to the way STR worked in 2E.
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Shadow-Bolt
01/12/23 4:48:36 PM
#75:


Questionmarktarius posted...
similar to the way STR worked in 2E.


I had managed to put this and THAC0 out of my head completely. Welp.

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Questionmarktarius
01/12/23 4:51:04 PM
#76:


THAC0 is just Armor Class, but overly-convoluted because Gygax said so.
6E was looking to be "3E with the last of the bullshit mandatory tropes finally gone", but now I don't know if I want to bother.
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Shadow-Bolt
01/12/23 8:15:52 PM
#77:


FATALITY. PAIZO WINS. FLAWLESS VICTORY

https://gizmodo.com/paizo-wizards-of-the-coast-dnd-open-rpg-ogl-1-1-1849982443

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agoat
01/12/23 8:21:03 PM
#78:


The time of the wizard is over. The time of the orc has come.

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Questionmarktarius
01/13/23 2:09:22 PM
#79:


It's going to take a lot of lawyers to de-d&d D20.
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apolloooo
01/14/23 1:02:40 AM
#80:


Gigachad move tbh

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devilminion
01/14/23 8:12:08 PM
#81:


Looks like Critical Role has responded

https://twitter.com/CriticalRole/status/1614019463367610392

Sounds like they are exploring other game systems without flat out saying it, for legal reasons.

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AceMos
01/14/23 8:20:54 PM
#82:


so they have officially pissed off the ppl who helped push DnD into the main stream

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pegusus123456
01/14/23 8:23:32 PM
#83:


AceMos posted...
its literally an adaption of DnD campaign
Even before the show, when Matt released his Tal'dorei campaign guide, he was very, very careful to strip anything that's actually copyrighted by WotC out of it. The show is the same. Pelor is only ever called the Dawnfather, Vecna is only ever called the Whispered One, Bigby has nothing to do with Scanlan's Hand, etc.

devilminion posted...
Sounds like they are exploring other game systems without flat out saying it, for legal reasons.
Yeah, that statement is 100%, "We're under binding contracts that prevents us from saying fuck WotC for this, but y'know, fuck WotC for this." They've worked very closely with the company for a few years now, having D&D Beyond as a sponsor since C2 and releasing an official guide, so there's probably non-disparaging clauses in their contract.

Mentioning the fact that they have their own tabletop division in their company is them subtly flexing.


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devilminion
01/14/23 8:32:02 PM
#84:


pegusus123456 posted...
They've worked very closely with the company for a few years now, having D&D Beyond as a sponsor since C2 and releasing an official guide, so there's probably non-disparaging clauses in their contract.

There's also the Clue boardgame that they did with Hasbro as well. Completely forgot this existed until someone brought it up in the reddit thread.
https://shop.critrole.com/products/critical-role-clue

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DuneMan
01/14/23 8:40:36 PM
#85:


Sounds like Critical Role will be considering the ORC license being proposed by Paizo. Whether they format their next campaign around Pathfinder or some new iterative system remains to be seen, but I doubt it'll be 5e...

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pegusus123456
01/14/23 8:41:57 PM
#86:


Critical Role's homegame started off in Pathfinder, they only switched to 5e because it was simpler and they thought it would work better on stream. They could easily go back to it, though god have mercy on Ashley Johnson's soul.

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DuneMan
01/14/23 8:46:49 PM
#87:


pegusus123456 posted...
they thought it would work better on stream
Well, not casting twenty buffs before a fight is easier for streaming. Like, I enjoy the variety possible in Pathfinder but if you dive completely into the mechanics it is a noticeably slower system than 5e.

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MorbidFaithless
01/14/23 9:12:39 PM
#88:


pegusus123456 posted...
though god have mercy on Ashley Johnson's soul.
It makes me wonder how she ever played it in the first place! She struggles... often :(

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pegusus123456
01/14/23 9:18:15 PM
#89:


MorbidFaithless posted...
It makes me wonder how she ever played it in the first place! She struggles... often :(
I think it's mostly just being on camera, I don't think someone's going to care too much if someone at a home game takes a little longer to figure out what they're doing or is playing suboptimally.

Orion had a similar issue tbh. Going for a twenty minute solo shopping trip isn't as bad if the other guys can go in another room to chat or fuck around on their phones, it's more of an issue when they have to stay and be on camera.

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Shadow-Bolt
01/14/23 10:42:40 PM
#90:


Interesting take from an actual lawyer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZQJQYqhAgY

TL;DW WOTC may not have a fucking leg to stand on. They can trademark certain things, like specific monsters they created that were not part of common mythology and specific character names, BUT they flat out cannot copyright ANYTHING in regards to the actual rules of the game. Period. If I wanted to take the 5E DMG and Player's handbook, rewrite them but keep the systems intact, and then re-release them as my own sci-fi themed TTRPG I could. I'd just need to mix up the chapter order and make sure the wording is different enough.

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IfGodCouldDie
01/14/23 11:47:01 PM
#91:


ToadallyAwesome posted...
Its amazing how I know your not joking and you always have the weirdest takes on things. I guess all life has to be miserable?
Him and Larien(?) Both come across as extremely miserable people with no experience with joy.

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VampireCoyote
01/14/23 11:48:00 PM
#92:


I only really ever played 3.5

i miss it so much though

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CARRRNE_ASADA
01/15/23 10:53:42 AM
#93:


Foppe posted...
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/2/9/5/AAA_aCAAEFTX.jpg


Stores dont depend on magic for income anymore. Distributors prices have increased while sell prices have remaine about the same so less profits for stores. Stores are greatly reducing their mtg inventory and moving on to pokemon as the money maker.

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ParanoidObsessive
01/17/23 5:54:48 PM
#94:


pegusus123456 posted...
Even before the show, when Matt released his Tal'dorei campaign guide, he was very, very careful to strip anything that's actually copyrighted by WotC out of it. The show is the same. Pelor is only ever called the Dawnfather, Vecna is only ever called the Whispered One, Bigby has nothing to do with Scanlan's Hand, etc.

First, this technically isn't true. They tended to use the official god names in the show until after the campaign book was released (much later in the campaign, not before the show) - it wasn't really until the second campaign that Matt really started putting emphasis on exclusively using the titles rather than the names. Something that was even more complicated by them using Sarenrae (who was Paizo/Pathfinder IP rather than WotC/D&D IP).

And they've used copyrighted spell names pretty consistently in the show (Sam literally used to sing "BIGBY'S HAND!" when casting it, for example). Even if they never once said they were using D&D rules, it would be very obvious to people who know D&D what system they were using.

Even beyond that, the book explicitly cited the OGL, and clearly fell under it. It included game mechanics, stat blocks, terms, and other elements which fall directly under the OGL - it absolutely wasn't a system-agnostic sourcebook. Which would mean that WotC would technically have grounds to claim literally everything in the book as their own intellectual property under the new OGL (as well as have right-of-refusal to prevent Critical Role to print anything they didn't want them to). Which is a large part of why most creators see the new OGL as utterly unacceptable on any level.

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pegusus123456
01/17/23 6:00:42 PM
#95:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
First, this technically isn't true.
The post I was responding to was talking about The Legend of Vox Machina. When I said "the show," I meant that.

And I didn't mean to say that his campaign guide wouldn't be included in it, I was just using it as an example of Matt distancing his setting from the official WotC copyright.

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Shadow-Bolt
01/17/23 6:02:37 PM
#96:


ParanoidObsessive posted...


First, this technically isn't true. They tended to use the official god names in the show until after the campaign book was released (much later in the campaign, not before the show) - it wasn't really until the second campaign that Matt really started putting emphasis on exclusively using the titles rather than the names. Something that was even more complicated by them using Sarenrae (who was Paizo/Pathfinder IP rather than WotC/D&D IP).

And they've used copyrighted spell names pretty consistently in the show (Sam literally used to sing "BIGBY'S HAND!" when casting it, for example). Even if they never once said they were using D&D rules, it would be very obvious to people who know D&D what system they were using.

Even beyond that, the book explicitly cited the OGL, and clearly fell under it. It included game mechanics, stat blocks, terms, and other elements which fall directly under the OGL - it absolutely wasn't a system-agnostic sourcebook. Which would mean that WotC would technically have grounds to claim literally everything in the book as their own intellectual property under the new OGL (as well as have right-of-refusal to prevent Critical Role to print anything they didn't want them to). Which is a large part of why most creators see the new OGL as utterly unacceptable on any level.


Shadow-Bolt posted...
Interesting take from an actual lawyer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZQJQYqhAgY

TL;DW WOTC may not have a fucking leg to stand on. They can trademark certain things, like specific monsters they created that were not part of common mythology and specific character names, BUT they flat out cannot copyright ANYTHING in regards to the actual rules of the game. Period. If I wanted to take the 5E DMG and Player's handbook, rewrite them but keep the systems intact, and then re-release them as my own sci-fi themed TTRPG I could. I'd just need to mix up the chapter order and make sure the wording is different enough.

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Tom_Joad
01/17/23 6:08:21 PM
#97:


Just play AD&D 2nd Edition.

That's the only real D&D, you know.

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DrizztLink
01/17/23 6:09:17 PM
#98:


Tom_Joad posted...
Just play AD&D 2nd Edition.

That's the only real D&D, you know.
Yes I rolled an 18/00

No I will not reroll

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