Board 8 > Dota 2 Mafia 2 Topic 8 - Lakad matataaaag (Normalin, normalin)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Obellisk posted...

What exactly is a death miller?

Death miller specifically is a miller that flips as scum despite being town.

It is an egregious method of the host lying to town as they flip the wrong alignment of a player giving town bad and completely misleading information.

It is long banned on b8.

I guess it would technically be death godfather in this case

and who is it we bel8eve is adeath Miller.

No one

Lopen is trying to claim ctes was scum and his flip is lie

MZero posted...

No one

Lopen is trying to claim ctes was scum and his flip is lie

oh I get it. he's scum but flips town miller.

that's effing stupid.

next

Lopens really thrown every theory out and swears they all fit

Second to last voter IS the real hammerer since it appears that the actually hammerer is passive.

@Isquen

Can we get an updated Ganked list?

UltimaterializerX posted...

Red hammered ctes bruh

dont play dumb with me >_>

Red - Hammerer. Couldn't manually vote. Has upgraded his role with a shard giving him the ability to vote manually. (Has not said if he is still an auto hammerer)

Ulti - Bodyguard. N1-Han; N2-Sbell; N3-Red. Shard upgrade is __________ (please confirm). Purchased a Salve.

MZero - Moneygrubber. Makes double the monies. has purchased item that doubles his doubles. Shard upgrade is __________ (please confirm).

Lopen - Psychic thats told number of people who visit him. Also has 2 items he believes are doc saves for himself. N0 -nil; N1 -nil; N2 -nil; N3 -1. Spent all money on shovels he's now given to Poppy. Shard upgrade is ________ (please confirm).

Poppy - I'm totally drawing a blank on all of your claim. Please re-confirm.

SBell - Unkillable. Can't shop or use Items. No shard upgrade. ;_;

Oops, didn't mean to hit post.

Just trying to lay everything out on the table.
We've got 3 alignments to fill and 6 players. This shouldn't be as hard as it is.
It's very VERY safe to assume Lopen will flip Scum or 3rd Party, so for everyone else there is a pool of four players we are looking at.

I still haven't heard from everyone regarding the possibility of two 3rd parties, or is that truly an absurd thought. Someone did say the flavor didn't account for it. If thats the case i think i can stop pondering that. Its just easier to think that Mzero and/or Poppy look so good because they really are they just aren't Town.

What about the stuns? We had two players claim to be stunned at some point. Han was 1. Han is town, we believe him. Where was the other Stun? I do not remember.

wasn't death stunned?

also my shard lets me duplicate almost any item i've owned or has been used on me

So you could essentially quadruple your doubles?

I feel like the error of this game is the ambiguity. Not knowing what items do. Not knowing what effects will be caused. It adds an additional layer of mystery to a game that is already heavy on the mystery.

I also believe it would be in scums interest to play on that. (Lopen being a perfect example).

My shard upgrade lets me write a journal entry that reveals with the start of day. 200 words or less. Reveals even if I die.

Lopen posted...

My shard upgrade lets me write a journal entry that reveals with the start of day. 200 words or less. Reveals even if I die.

And instead of purchasing a Shard Upgrade to leave a journal entry after your almost guaranteed mislynch because of ctes's death miller flip, you chose shovels...

Obellisk posted...

So you could essentially quadruple your doubles?

It says almost any item, so I'm not sure. I wasn't given a list of exceptions

Also about this pineapple. It says it has a silver spike I can pull as a day action, or I can give it to someone as a free action. Anyone have an opinion on what to do with this thing?

Obellisk posted...

And instead of purchasing a Shard Upgrade to leave a journal entry after your almost guaranteed mislynch because of ctes's death miller flip, you chose shovels...

Because I don't think a journal entry fixes the problem.

Like if you people are humoring I fake claim psychic because a death Miller can't exist why can't I be a death psychic that has a journal entry ability.

And what's to stop people

The key is irrefutable proof he's death Miller so the game can be solved. My journal entry doesn't do that. Digging up his body potentially does.

(Also I can't afford a shard)

Like someone is free to use the shard on me tonight so I can journal. I wouldn't be able to afford it without surviving today though

You don't think a final plea to have town listen to your active theory on the state of the game after you've been proven to be town would be beneficial.

After spending all that time on thinking about what Corrik may or may not have thought and making sure its what everyone focuses on and getting literally NOTHING out of it. You don't think making your thoughts clear to the remaining town members is going to help?

The Living
1. Lopen
2. MZero
3. Obellisk
4. PoppyTheNinja
5. Red13n
6. UltimaterializerX

The Dead
1. [LD1] Sultan - Mirana - MAFIA Elusive Roleblocker
2. [KN1] Corrik - Ursa - TOWN Roshan Hater
3. [KN1] Lea - Gondar - TOWN Miller Ninja Item Thief
4. [KD2] Death - Nerif - TOWN Death Delayer
5. [LD2] Hb - Rubick - MAFIA Role Thief
6. [KN2] Han - Darkterror - TOWN Vanilla
7. [LD3] Ctes - Lesale Deathbringer - TOWN Miller Watcher
8. [KN3] Chang - Wukong - TOWN Vanilla (Upgraded)
9. [KN3] Kirby - Shadow Demon - TOWN Miller Decoy

The Votals
[1] Lopen - (Sbell), (red), Ulti,
[1] Ulti - Lopen

With 6 alive, it requires a majority of 4 to lynch. Day ends at 8 PM Eastern on Friday, Sep 16 2022 or when this occurs.

If I get lynched I don't get a journal entry

Also I don't know how a journal entry gives me any more cred than my flip does

Just didn't seem useful

And whats the usefulness of digging up Ctes's corpse? What item does he hold and what will it tell us?

Some sort of item that changes your identity when you flip if held

I imagine if we take it from him he'll revert post mortem. If not, the item can be passed from who digs it up to another town to confirm the item exists

That's the only use I can see to the shovel, to solve the game mystery in this scenario. Our items are pretty bad

So listen, I know you don't believe my opening post

But my mindset going into today was that I could be mislynched and the key was to confirm that ctes was in fact scum and the day could be won the next day. That's why I needed to hand out 2+ shovels. Poppy can use his day action to give someone else a shovel. (Probably red so Mzero can buy, but I leave it up to him)

I figured Roshan would have a day kill on even numbered days. I did not think Roshan would kill tonight

I still think him as full SK is worse setup than Death Miller Watcher and that Corrik had to have killed himself.

Lopen posted...

Some sort of item that changes your identity when you flip if held

Just so i'm understanding correctly.

Lopen is lying vs. Ctes has an item that allows him to flip Miller Watcher (which he claimed) and Ctes is really Scum ______. and the only way we'll know its true is if we use shovels you've sent to Poppy (no confirmation yet) to dig up Ctes and get that item.

"I'm Town, the only logical answer is the game has a banned role in the form of an item"

That's the hill you wish to die on Lopen?

UltimaterializerX posted...

Stu why are you even entertaining a discussion

honestly I'm bored and don't feel like working at the moment and I'm enjoying poking holes in everything Lopen argues.

I know ctes is lying about his watches

I think any redirector would be seen by me. I think the odds of a redirection hitting the one guy who it mattered to be use on twice is awful too.

I also think ctes played the game like death miller watcher more than a town.

Setup makes a lot more sense if there are no power roles in the setup at all. Hence why Ulti bodyguard claim is definitely fake. Hence why we need to believe ctes is fake otherwise Ulti wins because "herp game needs protection."

Obellisk posted...

I'm enjoying poking holes in everything Lopen argues.

Earlier in the game you said "scum tends to make perfect arguments"

Now when I can't make a perfect argument (because how the hell am I supposed to explain why I saw no visitors if hes not Death Miller) I'm scum

I don't even know why I'm discussing this with Roshan anyway. I guess you need to be sure I'm scum since you'd win a 2/1/1.

Like listen Roshan

Either I'm scum, or there's one scum left because Ctes was scum

For you, you're gold. You got this.

Btw please town lynch Ulti when I flip. Scum shouldn't win with that busted ass role. Let Roshan win.

Did I say that?

Also I'm not Roshan. Clearly scum doesn't know who it is either which may explain the random selection of night kills this game.

I have to assume that my role is designed as a red herring or "miller", if you will, in regards to a 3rd party as it certainly looks like it would be me as I am outside of the norm of what everyone else can do this game.

Okay well if it's not you it's red (I do not think Poppy could fake his claim in this setup) so figure the game out. We can still win.

Either way it's not Ulti so my plea still works. If I die today lynch Ulti. It's my dying request.

Also I'd argue scum has made no attempt to kill Roshan whatsoever. Probably because we have yet to not lynch scum this game. It's not to their benefit to third party hunt when they're dropping like flies.

UltimaterializerX posted...
I have to ask in case I die - is there any possible world where ctes and Lopen are both town?

This was late last topic. Reposting for emphasis

This is scum letting it slip they know they have a death miller

A town member NEVER humors that the interaction of me and ctes is town/town. That is impossible.

And here's the thing

As Roshan, I never blind claim psychic, because that claim cannot live.
As scum, I never blind claim psychic, because literally any power role in the game contradicts me and I go 1 for 1 at best. If two contradict me I go 0 for 1. We also have a Kirby that can potentially confirm me by giving me 0, 1, or 2 targets basically on his own. Despite Hb I do think I was not a likely lynch yesterday. Ironically I think Ctes gets lynched even if he didn't contradict my psychic claim because of Chang's shard.
Keep in mind, I pushed for mass-- why? Because as town psychic, I knew my ability was useful to catch contradictions, and a 4 player mass involving every suspicious player in the game sounded perfect.

That's how you have to solve the game. Ignore stupid crap about "a role madness game can't have banned roles" and "the game needs protection" and boil it down to motivations and town and scum.

Like yes

It's cool to just wring your wrists and say... well, Death Miller, there was nothing we could do.

But what if we beat a Death Miller. Isn't that better? If I'm scum it's 3/2/1 and town can't win anyway.

Let's throw a hail mary for town, and kill Ulti.

Like I have no ill will towards Isquen

This is not on him

This is a setup where you can figure out that it's Death Miller.

The miller element becomes suspicious when three millers exist
The watcher element becomes suspicious when you have an extra watcher in the setup on upgrade and you have limited night actions to actually watch, and basically everyone town has a worthless role
Watchers are also very hard to fake by definition because you have to have logical watch choices without actually catching scum with any of them

This is legitimately a clever use of the role. It's not a role that you should ban. I mean you should ban it, because board 8 is not good enough at mafia to figure it out, but it's actually really cool in this setup. I would not support banning Isquen from hosting. At all.

And keep in mind, scum team NEEDS the death miller watcher to give the illusion of power in the setup beyond overpowered looking scum flips, because town team is very low power, otherwise late game it becomes obvious "every normal role is lying" and scum traps themselves with a bunch of claims like Bodyguard. This is boring. Super boring.

The problem with this setup is too many extra kills and ambiguous items. The Death Miller is fine though.

Plot twist: there is no Roshan

That would be funny. It would actually be a better setup.

If there's no Roshan we've got this in the bag if you kill Ulti that's the last scum.

Obellisk posted...

Red - Hammerer. Couldn't manually vote. Has upgraded his role with a shard giving him the ability to vote manually. (Has not said if he is still an auto hammerer)

Ulti - Bodyguard. N1-Han; N2-Sbell; N3-Red. Shard upgrade is __________ (please confirm). Purchased a Salve.

MZero - Moneygrubber. Makes double the monies. has purchased item that doubles his doubles. Shard upgrade is __________ (please confirm).

Lopen - Psychic thats told number of people who visit him. Also has 2 items he believes are doc saves for himself. N0 -nil; N1 -nil; N2 -nil; N3 -1. Spent all money on shovels he's now given to Poppy. Shard upgrade is ________ (please confirm).

Poppy - I'm totally drawing a blank on all of your claim. Please re-confirm.

SBell - Unkillable. Can't shop or use Items. No shard upgrade. ;_;

empowerer. i can prevent someone from being roleblocked. haven't used my role on any night.

PoppyTheNinja posted...

empowerer. i can prevent someone from being roleblocked. haven't used my role on any night.

items purchased? what's your enhancement again?

thoughts and prayers?

i can, uh, confirm getting the shovels but i don't believe the death miller stuff one bit

if anyone would like a shovel then say so?

Obellisk posted...

items purchased? what's your enhancement again?

thoughts and prayers?

i haven't bought any items given the ones available didn't seem too useful

You know I actually think you might be right

Roshan is just a device to sow paranoia. Corrik's role implying Roshan exists doesn't mean crap when you've got death millers in the setup. This many extra kills is way more balanced if it's 11/4 and not 10/4/1. SBell's role could actually exist as a "roshan miller" in that sense.

Now that being said n1 extra kill being available to scum, Roshan existing or not, is still a bad setup that I don't think gets off the floor. Logic is the same. It's not good setup math.

Start of game 11/4
Town mislynch - 10/4
Scum shot - 9/4
Roshan hater targets scum - 8/4
Scum EK - 7/4

So then

Town mislynch - 6/4
Scum shot - 5/4

Okay it's not literally impossible like it was because day 2 lylo is impossible, but Corrik played really scummy day 1. I do not think he makes sense as a scum EK. At all.