Poll of the Day > Do they need to pay liveable wages at the gas station?

(+) Yeah! (+)

When have I ever been angry on this board? I'll wait, throw some links up to posts where I'm angry, they should be easy to find, apparently it's the only emotion I can produce.

So you can't find any, got it. Keep projecting your own insecurities on others.

You are so entertaining, man. Can't believe I get this kind of entertainment for free.

If you close your eyes and listen carefully on a warm Tuesday night in the middle of Summer, you just might hear the tell-tale sign of a bird falling off a tree.

Yeah. I know it's really weird, but I think people ought to be able to live comfortably in exchange for their labor.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Yeah, getting divorced and losing your job sure is winning isn't it.

You'd have to pay me a LOT to work at a gas station, especially at night. Those things get robbed a LOT.

LinkPizza posted...

Never said it's bad. Just said it sounds like whining. And chance are people would always whine that whatever they were working was too much...

I mean, there is a difference. A 40 hour a week job with (in todays world) probably at least an hour commute (30 each way), and a half hour to hour lunch (mandatory), means you spend a good 10 hours a day getting to or at work.

I propose that is too much and not necessary anymore. It might have been in the past, but we could automate alot more than we already do, and with what we have now, I still think 90% of Americans at least shouldn't need to work that much.

If you dropped it down to 30, and jobs paid enough to live comfortably at that level, people who wanted to work less, could, they just wouldn't be as comfortable. They could rent a room etc and work only 3 days a week for instance.

But most people, instead of working 40 hours or more, and spending at least 10 hours a day m-f (leaving very little time left for family etc), could actually have more free time. They wouldn't complain about that (at least not for a long time) as it would be ALOT better.

I mean that is one whole day less they would need to work on average, or fewer hours per day (so that days at work don't feel completely wasted.)

It wouldn't solve everything, but it's fairly common in other countries (less hours worked per week that is, or longer lunches, more time off etc).

I mean, yeah, you would still have people upset they have to work at all while some Americans don't have to (due to being rich, disabled etc), but I still think the majority would be happier, less stressed, and have more time for their families....which would be a good thing.

Yes, to the customers! In California, I had to use 10 of my Safeway rewards points to get the gas price down to what the rest of the country was paying. Saved about $25 on filling up my little pickup and 3 gas cans.

Fierce_Deity_08 posted...

Yes, to the customers! In California, I had to use 10 of my Safeway rewards points to get the gas price down to what the rest of the country was paying. Saved about $25 on filling up my little pickup and 3 gas cans.

Genius to use the gas cans, but I don't go that far. I usually use the points on the 4 points for $7 off meat department instead, because my gas tank can't hold much gas so it's hard to get my moneys worth out of it.

I get about 12 gallons when i fill up, for 10 points......but if I use the 4 points for $7 I end up getting about 18$ off instead of $12. Gas cans might make that even (need to put 6 gallons into cans), but wouldn't save more, and well, then I'd need to drive around with gas cans lol.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I like how immature this argument got

Buttface
Dookiebrains
FartThinker

wolfy42 posted...

I mean, there is a difference. A 40 hour a week job with (in todays world) probably at least an hour commute (30 each way), and a half hour to hour lunch (mandatory), means you spend a good 10 hours a day getting to or at work.

I propose that is too much and not necessary anymore. It might have been in the past, but we could automate alot more than we already do, and with what we have now, I still think 90% of Americans at least shouldn't need to work that much.

If you dropped it down to 30, and jobs paid enough to live comfortably at that level, people who wanted to work less, could, they just wouldn't be as comfortable. They could rent a room etc and work only 3 days a week for instance.

But most people, instead of working 40 hours or more, and spending at least 10 hours a day m-f (leaving very little time left for family etc), could actually have more free time. They wouldn't complain about that (at least not for a long time) as it would be ALOT better.

I mean that is one whole day less they would need to work on average, or fewer hours per day (so that days at work don't feel completely wasted.)

It wouldn't solve everything, but it's fairly common in other countries (less hours worked per week that is, or longer lunches, more time off etc).

I mean, yeah, you would still have people upset they have to work at all while some Americans don't have to (due to being rich, disabled etc), but I still think the majority would be happier, less stressed, and have more time for their families....which would be a good thing.

An hour commute is a maybe. The average is about that. But these days, many more people have started working from home. Which already knocks time off. And honestly, some people enjoy their commute. I like to listen to my podcast during the drive. My current drive is about 15 minutes or so... And while lunch is during work, it's time off that you can do whatever. Like taking a nap, or hanging out with whoever. So, it's still free time and shouldn't be considered work...

The other problem is working less will make things cost more. Everyone working less but making the same or more is bad since still need to make profits. And because they are low on people since everyone works 10 hours less a week, they have to hire more. If not, they either have to shorten hours, or things won't get done as fast, depending on the type of business. Basically, this move will cost them money. And they won't eat that loss. They just pass it on to the customer.

And honestly, the extra 10 hours don't really do much. 40 hours out of a week is still less than 25% of a week. Meaning you still have 75% of your week to do whatever you want with. It's not even that much time...Working 10 hours less only give you just under 6% more time, which is like nothing for each person. But that's a lot for a business losing 6% of time for each person working there. And it goes the other way, too. Even if you want to add all that other stuff to how many hours a week we work, it only adds 6% extra time. So still less than 30% of your week working...

I see absolutely no benefit to getting barely any extra time a week, but risk prices raising, and business either being open less time, or slower with their product due to everyone working less hours... People can already live comfortably at 40 hours a week. An extra 10 hours a week won't do much for anybody. Most people would probably use it to catch up on sleep, anyway... Meaning it's just wasted time... And they would still complain about not having enough time. Because the extra time means nothing. Especially when you consider that many people who work regular day jobs are at work while their kid is at school, anyway. So, if you got an extra weekday off, you still won't get much more time with the family since they're at school... And when they get older, they'll probably get after school jobs... So it doesn't even help you spend more time with family, anyway... So, again, a waste... Not too mention, more time at home means more time to spend money to many people....

Basically, I don't see this as a good thing when looked at as a whole. And I don't think would really help many people, if anybody at all... Automation sucks, too... That's just gonna make things worse regardless...

Well 10 hours is 1 less day of work. For a family especially one parent can work 3 days and the other 4 days in that scenerio and someone is always home with the child. Even if both work 4 days that is only 1 day a week the child needs to be watched.

Also even just 8 hours less is 1 day less a week, or 20% less over all working. If it was 10 hours, and you removed the half/hour lunch as well (unless requested), that could effectively remove 2 days a week, meaning only needing to work 3 days with 10 hour shifts.

As far as prices go, those are based on supply and demand, the more money people have, the higher the prices rise. People working less wouldn't neccesarily increase prices unless less of everything was produced. The actual wages most companies pay are such a tiny portion of their costs that even doubling wages wouldn't have a huge effect on the end price (other than companies taking advantage of it of course).

I think we do have the resources and technology to reduce the required work week from each citizen, and I think that is a far better plan then setting up UBI (where a portion of citizens don't work at all, but the rest still have to work 40 or so hours to get by).

Anyway I doubt anything is going to change in the near future anyway. I would just like to see the wealth spread around a bit more, the huge profits many companies see shared with the employees that create them, and the stress on families especially be reduced. While a solution for that is free child care, or supplimented child care (also creates more jobs), a better solution in my opinion is to allow the family itself to watch the children by at least allowing those with 2 parents the ability to have someone home at all times with the child and only require a babysitter/child care center if the family desires that.

As it is now, I have a friend who works for the government but pays almost as much as she makes (after taxes) just for her child care (daughter is just turning 2 years old). Child care in this area for a adult babysitter (nanny) is about $25 an hour, so if you are making around 30 an hour, you break out about even. That is crazy and even if you pay for centers etc it's still a good $1500 a month or more.

I really feel for single parents today, you certainly are not gonna have an easy time of it working any job near min wage /15$ an hour.

So I just checked on this topic to see what all had been said since the time of my post, and there seemed to be some bickering between two old guys at one point? Then it died down as fast as, well, two excited old men who've spent themselves? Huh.

wolfy42 posted...

Well 10 hours is 1 less day of work. For a family especially one parent can work 3 days and the other 4 days in that scenerio and someone is always home with the child. Even if both work 4 days that is only 1 day a week the child needs to be watched.

Also even just 8 hours less is 1 day less a week, or 20% less over all working. If it was 10 hours, and you removed the half/hour lunch as well (unless requested), that could effectively remove 2 days a week, meaning only needing to work 3 days with 10 hour shifts.

It's one less day is terms of hours. But that doesn't mean you'll work 3-4 days a week. You could still work 5 days. But shorter shift. Depends on the kind of work/business, and the people who own/run it. For example. For example, they could have you work 6 hours a day, 5 days a week. That's still 30 hours... So, that might not work. And even then, that's only needed for the child's early years. After that, they'll be in school... So, then you have someone just sitting at home by themselves... So, it's still not really helping. Just because you work less overall doesn't mean you're working less days. It's more like when most people were teenagers. We went to school, and some had an after school job. And they just had you work like half shifts. That might be what it's like if we worked shorter hours. And in that case, you'd just be getting 2 extra hours per day. Meaning that it still feels kind of useless at that point... Assuming you'd be working less days isn't a good assumption, tbh... You have to think of all possible scenarios. It's possible you'll work less days. It's possible your days won't chance at all... As for spending time with family, it's not even helping the parents to spend time which each other. In your scenario, you're talking about them having different days off to watch the child. And that means they get no days to actually spend together. And if they did want to spend some time together alone, they would still need some form of child care...

wolfy42 posted...

As far as prices go, those are based on supply and demand, the more money people have, the higher the prices rise. People working less wouldn't neccesarily increase prices unless less of everything was produced. The actual wages most companies pay are such a tiny portion of their costs that even doubling wages wouldn't have a huge effect on the end price (other than companies taking advantage of it of course).

The problem is when you have less people working, the supply can easily go down, while the demand is up. Supply could go down from not having enough people since they work less to keep up with what you were making before. And if you get more people, to keep a profit, prices will go up. Supply and demand isn't the ONLY thing that controls prices. The owners or whoever can also change them so they aren't losing money. And demand for stuff can easily go up for many reasons. One reason could be that people being home more makes it so they need more of a certain item. Or because the place stays open for less time due to less people, it can make the demand higher because it's harder for people to get it... As for how much it affects them, it depends on the business. For example, it could really affect small local businesses a bunch...

wolfy42 posted...

I think we do have the resources and technology to reduce the required work week from each citizen, and I think that is a far better plan then setting up UBI (where a portion of citizens don't work at all, but the rest still have to work 40 or so hours to get by).

UBI was always a bad plan because there are way too many problems to not only make it work, but how to even start it in the first place. People talk about how good it sounds. But with no way to implement it without destroying everything, it was doomed to fail from the start... At least, to work in the way people want it to work...

wolfy42 posted...

Anyway I doubt anything is going to change in the near future anyway. I would just like to see the wealth spread around a bit more, the huge profits many companies see shared with the employees that create them, and the stress on families especially be reduced. While a solution for that is free child care, or supplimented child care (also creates more jobs), a better solution in my opinion is to allow the family itself to watch the children by at least allowing those with 2 parents the ability to have someone home at all times with the child and only require a babysitter/child care center if the family desires that.

As it is now, I have a friend who works for the government but pays almost as much as she makes (after taxes) just for her child care (daughter is just turning 2 years old). Child care in this area for a adult babysitter (nanny) is about $25 an hour, so if you are making around 30 an hour, you break out about even. That is crazy and even if you pay for centers etc it's still a good $1500 a month or more.

I really feel for single parents today, you certainly are not gonna have an easy time of it working any job near min wage /15$ an hour.

It doesn't really matter, though. The people who control the wealth will control how it spreads. Nothing you do will change that. What I mean is even if all your changes were implemented, the wealth would still stay where it is. It would change hands, or make things better for everyone... The companies that make the money and pay the workers won't just let their profits slip away. They'll find a way to keep it all... Working less hours a day might mean they work everyone hard. Now they have to try to get 40 hours or work done in 30 hours... Which would be much worse...

As for child care, it becomes free once they reach school age. Before that, it'll probably cost if you don't have any other way to take care of them. I know at work, we had some people who just brought the baby. Won't work in every field, though... Having more child care that isn't insanely priced will work. But thinking less hours mean less days at work is just setting yourself up for failure. Technically, if all you wanted was less days at work, you could just work more hours a day. You don't have to go down to 30 hours a week to have 3 or 4 days off. You just have to work a longer day...

Anyway, finding affordable child care sucks. That's why when my mom opened up her homecare, she didn't make the prices insane. So, she always had a full business going... And giving a job to my grandma meant she could have more kids that normal...

4 10's suck.

spend most of the first day off recovering.
far less time after/before shift to do anything.

Zang vs Everyone Else: The Topic

Krazy_Kirby posted...

4 10's suck.

spend most of the first day off recovering.
far less time after/before shift to do anything.

Idk... I guess I'm just use to working whatever amount of hours. Work has tried so many different things. For a while, they had a weekend duty shift. They would work regular day shift for Friday and Monday (8 hours shifts), and then work 12 hours (7am-7pm) on Saturday and Sunday. Which equaled out to 40 hours a week still. That said, a lot of people still hated it. And many wanted to go back to the 5 day a week schedule... I don't think they like missing out on the weekend. And in the end, nobody could go to college night a the club since it was Thursday night...

As for my hours, I just stay however long I want to. Usually to try to make up hours. Or have enough hours that I can miss a day or two. Or leave early when I was going to my buddy's house...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

4 10's suck.

spend most of the first day off recovering.
far less time after/before shift to do anything.

The job before last that I had was working for this company that answered phones for Verizon (forget it's name it's been like 3 years). Anyway it had mandatory overtime and 10 hour shifts (but between lunch and getting there back it was 12 hours total. Sucked as I had NO time at all during the week (I just did the bare minimum which was 5 days a week, many did 6).

I was so tired that even on the weekend I had to force myself to go play DnD and that was the only socializing I did. I'm older, so it's harder for me, but that is the norm for many and you start work at 10 am and finish at 11pm. I had to leave by 9:30 to get there and usually didn't get home till midnight.

I couldn't fall asleep right away, because I was too wound up, and also had just eaten, so I would usually crash around 1-130 am, get about 7 1/2 hours sleep and repeat the whole thing the next day.

It sucked, and once I found out they lied about bonuses etc, I stopped working there (was supposed to pay around 80k a year, based on the bonuses the promised, 2 months in I found out that it really barely paid over min wage (and 1 1/2 min wage for the over time which was mandatory).

When young a 10 hour shift can work, and I did 12 hour shifts on my first electronic tech job (at 19), i also know many nurses do 12 hour shifts as well. As you get older though that shit can kill you literally.

At my age/health I will try to limit myself to 6 hour shifts as much as possible in the future. I have a freaking hard time sleeping, but once I get to sleep I need about 9 hours or I feel like crap all day.

I was considering getting my degree in nursing (there is a year long program that would give me my masters in it since I already have it in education), but honestly I can't handle the shifts anymore that most nurses have to work, and with my health going downhill + covid....It's not worth investing a year to get my degree in nursing if I might barely even get to use it.

LinkPizza posted...

As for my hours, I just stay however long I want to. Usually to try to make up hours. Or have enough hours that I can miss a day or two. Or leave early when I was going to my buddy's house...

Yeah, I get you, and when I was in my 20's and 30's (well 30's if I hadn't been married which I was), i would have been down for longer shifts, especially if it meant I could have another day off.

Also would have happily always skipped lunch.

They really should offer longer shifts more, but while they do, it's usually not so you can work less days, it's just longer shifts for all 5 days lol. It's kinda my point above, that I'm not making so well, which is you don't need to work people so hard, and more people would be willing to work at all if they didn't have to give up so much of their waking life to do it.

But you are right, it's not an easy change, i just am saying it makes more sense then setting up UBI, at least to me.

wolfy42 posted...

Yeah, I get you, and when I was in my 20's and 30's (well 30's if I hadn't been married which I was), i would have been down for longer shifts, especially if it meant I could have another day off.

Also would have happily always skipped lunch.

They really should offer longer shifts more, but while they do, it's usually not so you can work less days, it's just longer shifts for all 5 days lol. It's kinda my point above, that I'm not making so well, which is you don't need to work people so hard, and more people would be willing to work at all if they didn't have to give up so much of their waking life to do it.

But you are right, it's not an easy change, i just am saying it makes more sense then setting up UBI, at least to me.

Technically, I skip lunch most days. I'm not allowed to. But my bosses don't need to know that. And since they don't work in the same office, they usually don't know. And I can just leave a little early without anyone noticing. And take time to do whatever... So, I still technically get all my time in...

And the problem with that is if people are giving up less of their waking life to work, then you would need them to work harder since you have them for less time... So, they have to work harder to make up for all the time you won't have them anymore. An example is if you have to have everyone finish 8 projects a day during an 8 hour shift to keep things running smoothly, then that just need to finish 40 projects a week, so a project an hour. But if you cut them down to 6 hours a day, now they need to finish the same amount of projects in 3/4 the amount of time. Which means they have to work harder. Because if they can only do 30 projects, then everything starts to fall apart. It can even affect normal jobs. Like if you cut down the shifts of the waiters or cashiers in a restaurant or store, you're putting more work on the ones that are there at the time...

I think both are bad ideas. What we have now works. Changing stuff can be good. But neither of those changes are actually good. It might sound good, but both have too much bad that outweighs any good it could do. Or the bad negates the good. Or just doesn't make sense business wise. Like making more money for less work sounds good to people. But business don't want that. Or else they would have done it by now...

Don't get me wrong. I know you have good intentions and all. It's just there are probably better ways. Between the choices of UBI, what's your offering, and how things are currently, I see keeping things the current way as the best. Maybe if things change in the future, what works best will also change. Maybe one of these choices, or maybe a completely different one. But only time will tell...

As for what I hope, as long as automation doesn't progress any further(mainly the job stealing kind), I'll be happy...

I guess "everyone else" includes me as well.

wolfy42 posted...

Genius to use the gas cans, but I don't go that far. I usually use the points on the 4 points for $7 off meat department instead, because my gas tank can't hold much gas so it's hard to get my moneys worth out of it.

I get about 12 gallons when i fill up, for 10 points......but if I use the 4 points for $7 I end up getting about 18$ off instead of $12. Gas cans might make that even (need to put 6 gallons into cans), but wouldn't save more, and well, then I'd need to drive around with gas cans lol.

Yep! The gas cans are mainly for our lawn mowers and sometimes our ATV but we have put in a little bit in our vehicles so we can be sure to be able to make it to a gas station. I do hope we can get an electric pickup! They just look like fun and with a solar charger, we could make this stupid sunny weather useful since no one wants to give us rain.

Zang misgendered Entity because Zangs angy and it's still up 8 hours later?

Zang sure gets mad an awful lot.

Probably because his life is in a perpetual state of falling to shambles and he has no friends.

CinderLock posted...

Zang misgendered Entity because Zangs angy and it's still up 8 hours later?

Oh yeah, what the hell was up with that, @Zangulus ?

Edit: Oh wait, he got warned for being a very angry boy.

Sarcasthma posted...

Oh yeah, what the hell was up with that, @Zangulus ?

Edit: Oh wait, he got warned for being a very angry boy.

The post is still up too. I'd tag a mod but I'd get moderated for that before Zang would for his.

Notschmendrake posted...

Zang sure gets mad an awful lot.

Probably because his life is in a perpetual state of falling to shambles and he has no friends.

Right? And then he deflects it all out like everyone else has the problem. Very strange behavior. Therapy might help.

I didn't even see Zang's response to my simple observation until now. His rage, and unkind words, are hardly worth my time most days.

The post is still up too oh man this site.

But let me call a grown man stupid and the mods lose their shit lol

There's a lot of work out there that just shouldn't be done by humans as humans are too expensive to maintain.

Personally I'm of the opinion that wages don't need to go up per se, but benefits need to exist so a household that doesn't earn enough with a full-time worker gets topped up to a reasonable level. Just fund that directly through a business tax and watch businesses either decide those jobs aren't sustainable, or just pay people properly to avoid the tax.

I'm not gonna read every detail of whatever this slap fight is about but holy shit this board is insane. I'm not sure if there's a single happy person here.

I can't blame anyone though, I'm not happy and I'm not above a stupid slap fight, but when you aren't involved in one and see it from afar it's like damn wtf

CoorsLight posted...

I'm not gonna read every detail of whatever this slap fight is about but holy shit this board is insane. I'm not sure if there's a single happy person here.

I can't blame anyone though, I'm not happy and I'm not above a stupid slap fight, but when you aren't involved in one and see it from afar it's like damn wtf

Thanks Ghandhy

I'm happy, I just don't like half of you because you're awful people.

EvilMegas posted...

I'm happy, I just don't like half of you because you're awful people.

only when it's entertaining to me, tyvm.

4 days at 10 hours is great