Current Events > In 2021, we all agree that Joel was wrong correct? TLOU1 ending spoilers

(+) Yeah! (+)

TheOtherMike posted...

How is it not?

Because Marlene has been a maternal figure to Ellie, and Joel knows this. And as revealed later, both Marlene and Joel know that Ellie would be willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good. So there is way more precedent to think that Marlene would inform Ellie of the unfortunate necessity of the situation, than just leave her unconscious and do it anyway. But regardless, whether or not Ellie gave consent was never Joel's concern, as firmly confirmed later when he kills Marlene and lies about the whole incident.

Again, because she literally refuses to let him even see her.

Again, both Joel and Ellie were knocked out for an indefinite amount of time. Ellie could have simply awoken before Joel and been prepped for surgery, getting anesthetized before Joel woke up. A bystander is generally not allowed to be in the same room as someone receiving surgery.

And serves to reinforce what Joel already knew. Marlene knew he knew it wasn't consensual. This is all blatantly obvious from their conversation in the hospital after Joel wakes up.

It's not though.

I never said anything about whether she woke up or not. What are you talking about? The scene I was referring to was Marlene telling Joel "it's what she would want" because you clearly forgot about it.

And I already responded to that. That was AFTER Joel had already killed everyone, and the fact that he lied about everything means he didn't give a damn about Ellie's consent either.

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@TheOtherMike , don't tell me what to do. If you want to have a conversation, I'm going to @ you.

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the0rebirth posted...

And as revealed later, both Marlene and Joel know that Ellie would be willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good

No parent would allow it. Get a fucking grip.

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@ ing someone while in the middle of an active discussion accomplishes nothing except annoying them
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Funkydog posted...

I mean, neither did they. None of them come off good in this.

I know. I'm just arguing that it's never clear that the Fireflies didn't receive consent from Ellie until after Joel goes on his murdering spree. What we know by the end of the story is that neither Joel nor Marlene cared much about Ellie's consent.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

@ ing someone while in the middle of an active discussion accomplishes nothing except annoying them

Who would get annoyed by something so trivial? If I'm directing my posts at a specific person, then I'm going to tag them. 1 + 1 = 2.

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Shezarr posted...

No parent would allow it. Get a fucking grip.

I don't care what you think every parent would do; you're emotionally compromised.

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the0rebirth posted...

What we know by the end of the story is that both Joel and Marlene didn't care about Ellie's consent.

This is my problem. No one asked.

Joel's rampage wasn't about Ellie. It was about him.

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CyricZ posted...

This is my problem. No one asked.

Joel's rampage wasn't about Ellie. It was about him.

Bingo. Joel wanted to keep his surrogate daughter; Marlene wanted to save the world. Neither cared about Ellie's consent enough to receive it before acting.

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People defending Joel is a fascinating case study into how a lot of people defend and love the main character no matter what they do.

Joel is objectively a horrible nasty selfish egotistical murderer ,liar and abuser

Both games go out of their way to demonstrate this

Then fans ignore the events of both games to lie to defend him.

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the0rebirth posted...

@TheOtherMike , don't tell me what to do. If you want to have a conversation, I'm going to @ you.

@ me one more time and you're getting blocked. The only reason I don't have mentions disabled is so I can get tagged for specific gaming events. I'm already in this conversation so there's no reason to @ me except to be antagonistic.

the0rebirth posted...

Because Marlene has been a maternal figure to Ellie, and Joel knows this.

This doesn't answer the question. If Ellie had consented to the surgery there is absolutely no reason for Marlene to not tell him. Marlene has made it clear she's willing to sacrifice Ellie for her goals, regardless of her personal relationship with her.

the0rebirth posted...

Ellie could have simply awoken before Joel and been prepped for surgery, getting anesthetized before Joel woke up.

Again, this doesn't mean Ellie consented.

the0rebirth posted...

It's not though.

It indisputably is.

the0rebirth posted...

And I already responded to that. That was AFTER Joel had already killed everyone, and the fact that he lied about everything means he didn't give a damn about Ellie's consent either.

This scene coming after Joel's rampage is completely irrelevant because:

TheOtherMike posted...

And serves to reinforce what Joel already knew. Marlene knew he knew it wasn't consensual. This is all blatantly obvious from their conversation in the hospital after Joel wakes up.

This headcanon that Joel knew the Fireflies didn't have Ellie's consent not only isn't supported by anything substantive, but it's actively undermined by Joel later revealing that he didn't care about Ellie's consent either.

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They already had her. They could have waited until she woke up. They could have told them both what the procedure was going to be, give the girl time to decide, even if she'd immediately want to go under the blade and give her life, give her time to reflect on what it means to die not just for her but for Joel who grew to love her as a daughter, the things she would have missed out on maybe give them time to at least say goodbye.
But they tried to go behind his back, they didn't even ask Ellie, they went about it in the scummiest way. Joel did the right thing, but it's not like he went there with the intention of killing the FireFlies. Plus that was the first "solution" they came up with. Like think things through, maybe try more tests, consider finding a medical expert (good luck with that) fucking anything other be scumbags and try to kill a little girl "for the greater good" without her consent. They didn't even know how they'd distribute a POTENTIAL cure. There was no guarantee that they even could produce a cure, the only guarantee was that Ellie was going to die.

How many survivors would have heard of the cure and would have tried to stop it because they grew to like the new world order? There was never a guarantee that they could cure everyone much less that everyone wanted a cure.

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the0rebirth posted...

This headcanon that Joel knew the Fireflies didn't have Ellie's consent not only isn't supported by anything substantive,

Except the entire scene I linked that you said doesn't say what it says. And every scene after that serves to reinforce.

We've reached the point where the rest of the topic is just going to be the same things being repeated over and over
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TheOtherMike posted...

@ me one more time and you're getting blocked. The only reason I don't have mentions disabled is so I can get tagged for specific gaming events. I'm already in this conversation so there's no reason to @ me except to be antagonistic.

The only reason I tagged you the first time is because I forgot to mention my final point in a previous reply, and didn't want to edit it because you might have already started responding. Either way, it's really not a big deal; why are some of you so uptight about something so trivial?

This doesn't answer the question. If Ellie had consented to the surgery there is absolutely no reason for Marlene to not tell him. Marlene has made it clear she's willing to sacrifice Ellie for her goals, regardless of her personal relationship with her.

And if Joel was so concerned about consent, he would have asked if they received Ellie's permission first. See how that's not a one-way street? Even then, we have to assume that Joel would believe the Fireflies, and be willing to set aside his own desires for the possibility that they MIGHT be telling the truth. Unlikely.

Again, this doesn't mean Ellie consented.

My point is that it's unknown, and there's nothing confirming that she didn't wake up at all until after she clarifies in the car. Joel did what he did because he didn't want Ellie to die; it had nothing to do with whether or not Ellie would have been willing to.

It indisputably is.

I'm successfully disputing it. Clearly, you're wrong.

This scene coming after Joel's rampage is completely irrelevant because:

It turns out that neither cared about Ellie's consent, but this wasn't Joel's motivation so it doesn't matter.

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TheOtherMike posted...

Except the entire scene I linked that you said doesn't say what it says. And every scene after that serves to reinforce.

I already refuted those posts, and I like how you didn't include the second part of the sentence because you know it makes Joel look no better.

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the0rebirth posted...

I don't care what you think every parent would do; you're emotionally compromised.

lmao what the fuck does this even mean. Never have children

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the0rebirth posted...

Bingo. Joel wanted to keep his surrogate daughter; Marlene wanted to save the world. Neither cared about Ellie's consent enough to receive it before acting.

Marlene is less of a selfish prick than Joel though. Marlene has taken care of Ellie since she was a baby so the choice she had to make was probably harder for her than it was for Joel and she still chose to do it for humanity.

the0rebirth posted...

And if Joel was so concerned about consent, he would have asked if they received Ellie's permission first.

He didn't have to because it was obvious they didn't. You're wrong, and I'm done responding to you.

Shezarr posted...

lmao what the fuck does this even mean.

I'm not responsible for your stupidity.

Never have children

"Your opinions on a video game storyline trigger me to the point that I feel you should never reproduce!"

Pure soy.

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TheOtherMike posted...

He didn't have to because it was obvious they didn't. You're wrong, and I'm done responding to you.

It's not obvious, and you're done responding because you can't properly defend your stance. Good talk, though.

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RedJackson posted...

Seems selfish to have your whole motivation be based upon I need to feel worth something

Oh no it's actually Ellie that selfish for wanting her immunity to mean something and be used to save humanity, why didn't she think of being Joel's property? Holy fuck the misogyny here is pretty disgusting.

the0rebirth posted...

It's not obvious, and you're done responding because you can't properly defend your stance. Good talk, though.

I don't need to defend my stance when the game makes it explicitly clear.

That cure never would have worked.

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It is Joel's fault we have Abbey

let that sink in

KiwiTerraRizing posted...

That cure never would have worked.

That was never said in the game and Joel didn't think of that. Try again.

KiwiTerraRizing posted...

That cure never would have worked.

The entire plot and drama says otherwise and Joel didn't care

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KiwiTerraRizing posted...

That cure never would have worked.

there wouldn't have been any moral dilemma if it wouldn't have worked/the characters believed it wouldn't have worked.

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TheOtherMike posted...

I don't need to defend my stance when the game makes it explicitly clear.

If it was EXPLICITLY clear, the game would have had Joel and Marlene converse in a way that directly confirms it. You can argue that it's IMPLICITLY clear (which is debatable), but that's it.

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JoelMiller95 posted...

That was never said in the game and Joel didn't think of that. Try again.

Even had it worked, they wouldn't give it to everyone or save those already infected.

the0rebirth posted...

If it was EXPLICITLY clear, the game would have had Joel and Marlene converse in a way that directly confirms it.

They did, you just choose to misunderstand it.

TheOtherMike posted...

They did, you just choose to misunderstand it.

Oh? Then by all means, please show me the dialogue where Joel asks "Is Ellie okay with this?" and Marlene either doesn't answer or says "no".

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the0rebirth posted...

Oh? Then by all means, please show me the dialogue where Joel asks "Is Ellie okay with this?" and Marlene either doesn't answer or says "no".

Keep missing the mark. It's entertaining at least.

It is at best a bit of a grey area. No one person was truly in the right and Ellie would he considered innocent in all of this.

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TheOtherMike posted...

Keep missing the mark. It's entertaining at least.

Learn what the word "explicitly" means.

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the0rebirth posted...

Learn what the word "explicitly" means.

Keep projecting.

TommyG663513 posted...

It is at best a bit of a grey area. No one person was truly in the right and Ellie would he considered innocent in all of this.

Joel is truly in the wrong

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Joel and Fireflies were both wrong on different levels.

Joel was wrong because Ellie was a chance to cure the world. Fireflies were wrong because they were sacrificing someone for a chance.

TheOtherMike posted...

Keep projecting.

How am I projecting? Just stop, for your own sake. I thought you were done responding three posts ago, or were you just lying like Joel did to Ellie?

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the0rebirth posted...

How am I projecting?

Because you're accusing me of everything you're guilty of. Start by learning the definition of explicit.

the0rebirth posted...

I thought you were done responding three posts ago

I'm done putting effort into my responses about the story and what it makes abundantly clear, but when you passive-aggressively insult me I'm definitely going to respond.

joel was obviously more right than the fireflies

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sLaCkEr408___RJ posted...

Joel and Fireflies were both wrong on different levels.

Joel was wrong because Ellie was a chance to cure the world. Fireflies were wrong because they were sacrificing someone for a chance.

Ellie would have been on board

Joel, Ellie and Firelies are sacrificed people to be there

Joel sacrificed innocent people just to remove all chance

Joel defenders just lie

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the0rebirth posted...

I already refuted those posts,

No you didn't.

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TheOtherMike posted...

Because you're accusing me of everything you're guilty of. Start by learning the definition of explicit.

When? When did I do anything except state that it isnt explicitly clear that Joel knew Marlene hadnt gotten consent? Youre just talking out of your ass now. This is some I know you are but what am I preschool shit.

I'm done putting effort into my responses about the story and what it makes abundantly clear, but when you passive-aggressively insult me I'm definitely going to respond.

So in other words, you just werent done responding. Flattered that I have the power to make you go back on your word.

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dave_is_slick posted...

No you didn't.

I did.

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the0rebirth posted...

When?

You told me to learn the meaning of explicit, which you clearly don't know yourself. Jfc, can you keep up with the conversations you participate in? There is zero chance you aren't trolling.

I disagree, joel is a hero imo

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TheOtherMike posted...

You told me to learn the meaning of explicit, which you clearly don't know yourself.

Explicit = direct. Implicit = imply. There exists no exchange between Joel and Marlene in which it's directly confirmed that the latter didn't have Ellie's permission to perform the surgery. Ergo, your argument is based on inference...AKA, implicit reasoning.

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