Current Events > In 2021, we all agree that Joel was wrong correct? TLOU1 ending spoilers

(+) Yeah! (+)

He dun shouldnt have shot up the fireflies.

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@ArianaGrandSlam

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The Fireflies were a terrorist organization
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UnholyMudcrab posted...

The Fireflies were a terrorist organization

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They operated horribly and paid the price for it. Trying to weigh everything on the scope of saving humanity is silly because who knows if it would have actually worked, but killing someone without their consent based on that hope is super fucking evil regardless.

No. Joel was indisputably right to prevent a terrorist organization from murdering a girl for the purpose of maybe finding a cure (especially when they never even attempted less invasive options), which they definitely would have hoarded and withheld for political power.

Joel made the right decision

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Joel did nothing wrong

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Didn't they not tell Ellie? If they had told her and it was her decision to still go through, then maybe you could say Joel was wrong, doubly so if Joel knew Ellie was okay with it or could have at least reasoned she was okay with it and he still only saved her for selfish reasons.

But as presented and knowing what we know Joel knows, he wasn't wrong in saving Ellie.


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wackyteen posted...

Didn't they not tell Ellie? If they had told her and it was her decision to still go through, then maybe you could say Joel was wrong, doubly so if Joel knew Ellie was okay with it or could have at least reasoned she was okay with it and he still only saved her for selfish reasons.

But as presented and knowing what we know Joel knows, he wasn't wrong in saving Ellie.

Ellie was unconscious the entire time
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If I was in Joel's place I'd most likely have done the same regardless of right or wrong.

I definitely would not have trusted the Fireflies with a vaccine, especially after Jerry says "After all the sacrifices and horrific things we've done, all that is justified with this one act."

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

The Fireflies were a terrorist organization

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Ellie was unconscious the entire time

I meant before the night part happened.

Its been about a year since I last played the game. Was she knocked out when they got to the Fireflies? I know you did the section with her but don't remember how it all shakes out

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Joel and the Fireflies were in the wrong but Joel was more in the wrong since he knew Ellie would've wanted to sacrifice her life.

Nope. Still say he did nothing wrong. Fuck the fireflies

The fireflies were terrible people who deserved what they got, no organization that stupid should be trusted especially with how their doctors do not know how fungal parasites work.

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SSJ2GrimReaper posted...

Joel did nothing wrong

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wackyteen posted...

I meant before the night part happened.

Its been about a year since I last played the game. Was she knocked out when they got to the Fireflies? I know you did the section with her but don't remember how it all shakes out

iirc, she almost drowns and losses consciousness.

the Fireflies come to get them/save them from something (I haven't played since 2013), and Ellie doesn't wake up until Joel had killed them and driven away, so she never had an opportunity to interact with them.

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The right thing to do would have been to wait for Ellie to wake up. Talk to her about it. And then go from there. But that would have been a less interesting story. Regardless Joel handled the situation incorrectly.

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wackyteen posted...

UnholyMudcrab posted...

Ellie was unconscious the entire time

I meant before the night part happened.

Its been about a year since I last played the game. Was she knocked out when they got to the Fireflies? I know you did the section with her but don't remember how it all shakes out

Ellie nearly drowns in that flooded tunnel, and she and Joel are abducted by the Fireflies while he's trying to resuscitate her. From that point, she doesn't regain consciousness until after they're out of the hospital.
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fan357 posted...

The right thing to do would have been to wait for Ellie to wake up. Talk to her about it. And then go from there. But that would have been a less interesting story. Regardless Joel handled the situation incorrectly.

Imagine thinking they give a shit about her choice when humanity is at stake. She would've wanted to sacrifice herself anyways.

JoelMiller95 posted...

fan357 posted...

The right thing to do would have been to wait for Ellie to wake up. Talk to her about it. And then go from there. But that would have been a less interesting story. Regardless Joel handled the situation incorrectly.

Imagine thinking they give a shit about her choice when humanity is at stake. She would've wanted to sacrifice herself anyways.

Username does not check out.
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I honestly can't say I wouldn't do the same in his situation. It was fucked up and Ellie had been placed in the situation under false pretences. If they had been properly honest with her, and she'd made the same choice then that would be different. That they didn't try lesser things first before killing her on a "possibly maybe who knows" also doesn't work in their favour.

Really though, he should have made them wake her up and explain it so she could decide, not decide for her even if she initially wanted to. But they refused to do that, so he did what he felt he had to. Doesn't make Joel in the right either though, as everyone involved was wrong in what they did.

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fan357 posted...

The right thing to do would have been to wait for Ellie to wake up. Talk to her about it. And then go from there. But that would have been a less interesting story. Regardless Joel handled the situation incorrectly.

The Fireflies never offered to let her wake up and discuss the situation. Marlene effectively told Joel "We're doing this, deal with it." Joel absolutely handled the situation correctly.

Joel was wrong, because he wasnt even aware as to whether or not Ellie gave consent for the surgery. As far as he knew, Ellie woke up and told the doctors to start hackin away at her brain. But that never mattered to Joel; he killed everyone because he simply didnt want Ellie to die.

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the0rebirth posted...

Joel was wrong, because he wasnt even aware as to whether or not Ellie gave consent for the surgery. As far as he knew, Ellie woke up and told the doctors to start hackin away at her brain.

No, it's made explicitly clear that she never consented.

Funkydog posted...

I honestly can't say I wouldn't do the same in his situation. It was fucked up and Ellie had been placed in the situation under false pretences. If they had been properly honest with her, and she'd made the same choice then that would be different. That they didn't try lesser things first before killing her on a "possibly maybe who knows" also doesn't work in their favour.

Really though, he should have made them wake her up and explain it so she could decide, not decide for her even if she initially wanted to. But they refused to do that, so he did what he felt he had to. Doesn't make Joel in the right either though, as everyone involved was wrong in what they did.

Did you play the end of the second game? Ellie said that she would've wanted to sacrifice herself and then Joel said then if he want back in time, he still would've done the same thing.

Ellie: Youre such an asshole!

Joel: Im not trying to--

Ellie: I was supposed to die in that hospital. My life wouldve fucking mattered. But you took that from me.

Joel: If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment... I would do it all over again.

SocialistGamer posted...

He dun shouldnt have shot up the fireflies.

But I didnt shoot them up.

I loved II as well but I refuse to accept Druckmann shoehorning that bit in after letting people approach the situation how theyd like.

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Teh_Dr_Phil posted...

But I didnt shoot them up.

I loved II as well but I refuse to accept Druckmann shoehorning that bit in after letting people approach the situation how theyd like.

You're forced to kill the surgeon in the first game and it's Druckmann's game not yours.

Teh_Dr_Phil posted...

But I didnt shoot them up.

I loved II as well but I refuse to accept Druckmann shoehorning that bit in after letting people approach the situation how theyd like.

all that's shown in the flashback in TLoU2 is Jerry being killed by Joel and no other Fireflies, iirc.

and it was already established in the first game that Joel killed Jerry and Marlene, so idk about anything being shoehorned.

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JoelMiller95 posted...

Did you play the end of the second game? Ellie said that she would've wanted to sacrifice herself and then Joel said then if he want back in time, he still would've done the same thing.

I have not played the second game no, been to lazy to watch a playthrough but should at some point tbh. I know Ellie initially wanted to sacrifice herself, but she didn't know the reality of the situation that you can find out as Joel where they really don't know what the fuck they are doing and have failed every other time and nothing has happened to change that. I don't know if Joel explained any of this to her, but at the time he was stuck with knowing that they hadn't been remotely truthful and were very likely throwing her life away needlessly.

I'm not saying what he did was right, but I do understand it.

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Idk. It's not supposed to be an easy decision. You could make a moral argument for doing a lot of different things in that situation.

What Joel did was in character, at least I thought so.

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TheOtherMike posted...

No, it's made explicitly clear that she never consented.

To us. Not to Joel. You're conflating what's shown to the audience to what's known to other characters.

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The less said about the second game, the better. It ruined one of my favorite endings in gaming.
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JoelMiller95 posted...

You're forced to kill the surgeon in the first game and it's Druckmann's game not yours.

I dont give a fuck whose game it is, lol. He gave you the option to stealth through without killing anyone. Abbys flashbacks have the hospital around the operating room empty with blood on the walls so its pretty clearly implied Joel did more than kill the surgeon.

Hes gone on record saying he did this intentionally because he didnt like that more people sided with Joel than against him in the decision to save Ellie.

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Teh_Dr_Phil posted...

Hes gone on record saying he did this intentionally because he didnt like that more people sided with Joel than against him in the decision to save Ellie.

He underestimated paternal instincts, lol not our fault he didn't understand human psychology as much as he thought he did.

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Joel was right and any parent would have done what he did.

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Teh_Dr_Phil posted...

I dont give a fuck whose game it is, lol. He gave you the option to stealth through without killing anyone. Abbys flashbacks have the hospital around the operating room empty with blood on the walls so its pretty clearly implied Joel did more than kill the surgeon.

Without killing anyone except for the guy who was escorting him (who he tortured and then shot in the head) the head surgeon (who he stabbed in the neck) and Marlene (who he shot in the stomach and then in the head while she was begging for her life) but I guess the second game showing that he also killed the other goons makes him more of a monster?

Like seriously find me a single (loving) parent who would sacrifice their child for a maybe and ill show you a liar

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the0rebirth posted...

To us. Not to Joel.

Yes, it was explicitly clear to Joel.

https://youtu.be/yhNgialYLkE

If Ellie had consented to the surgery Marlene would have told Joel. Instead she refuses to even let him see her. There is no ambiguity here.

TheOtherMike posted...

Yes, it was explicitly clear to Joel.

https://youtu.be/yhNgialYLkE

If Ellie had consented to the surgery Marlene would have told Joel. Instead she refuses to even let him see her. There is no ambiguity here.

Watched the whole clip. It's not made explicitly clear. You're assuming she would have told Joel that Ellie consented to the surgery, but how do we know she even suspected that Joel didn't think the surgery was consensual? There's nothing implying that Ellie never woke up at some point and consented to the surgery; both she and Joel were knocked out for an indeterminate amount of time. I can just as easily say that Joel should have asked if Ellie woke up and consented to the surgery. Until Ellie wakes up in the car and reveals that her last memory was of almost drowning, there's nothing confirming whether or not she woke up before the surgery was to take place.

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the0rebirth posted...

You're assuming she would have told Joel that Ellie consented to the surgery

You're assuming she wouldn't when all common sense says she would. You're also forgetting that later she flat out tells Joel "it's what she would want," which also explicitly means that Ellie doesn't know what's happening to her.

the0rebirth posted...

Until Ellie wakes up in the car and reveals that her last memory was of almost drowning, there's nothing confirming whether or not she woke up before the surgery was to take place.

See above. You're misremembering or simply not remembering certain events.

TheOtherMike posted...

You're assuming she wouldn't when all common sense says she would.

How is it common sense? What reason would Marlene--a mother figure to Ellie--have to assume that Joel doesn't think the surgery is consensual? Why would that thought cross her mind?

You're also forgetting that later she flat out tells Joel "it's what she would want," which also explicitly means that Ellie doesn't know what's happening to her.

This takes place AFTER Joel has already killed everyone.

See above. You're misremembering or simply not remembering certain events.

No, we definitely don't know whether Ellie woke up after nearly drowning until after she says so in the car.

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JoelMiller95 posted...

Ellie: Youre such an asshole!

Joel: Im not trying to--

Ellie: I was supposed to die in that hospital. My life wouldve fucking mattered. But you took that from me.

Joel: If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment... I would do it all over again.

Seems selfish to have your whole motivation be based upon I need to feel worth something


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TheOtherMike posted...

No. Joel was indisputably right to prevent a terrorist organization from murdering a girl for the purpose of maybe finding a cure (especially when they never even attempted less invasive options), which they definitely would have hoarded and withheld for political power.

Exactly.

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Oh, and if anything, @TheOtherMike , Marlene telling Joel "it's what she'd want, AND YOU KNOW IT" only hurts your argument, because it means that despite Joel knowing this to be true, he still opted not to give Ellie a choice in the matter.

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the0rebirth posted...

How is it common sense?

How is it not?

the0rebirth posted...

What reason would Marlene--a mother figure to Ellie--have to assume that Joel doesn't think the surgery is consensual? Why would that thought cross her mind?

Again, because she literally refuses to let him even see her.

the0rebirth posted...

This takes place AFTER Joel has already killed everyone.

And serves to reinforce what Joel already knew. Marlene knew he knew it wasn't consensual. This is all blatantly obvious from their conversation in the hospital after Joel wakes up.

the0rebirth posted...

No, we definitely don't know whether Ellie woke up after nearly drowning until after she says so in the car.

I never said anything about whether she woke up or not. What are you talking about? The scene I was referring to was Marlene telling Joel "it's what she would want" because you clearly forgot about it.

the0rebirth posted...

Oh, and if anything, @TheOtherMike , Marlene telling Joel "it's what she'd want, AND YOU KNOW IT" only hurts your argument, because it means that despite Joel knowing this to be true, he still opted not to give Ellie a choice in the matter.

I mean, neither did they. None of them come off good in this.

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the0rebirth posted...

Oh, and if anything, @TheOtherMike , Marlene telling Joel "it's what she'd want, AND YOU KNOW IT" only hurts your argument, because it means that despite Joel knowing this to be true, he still opted not to give Ellie a choice in the matter.

1. Don't @ me.
2. You're grossly misinterpreting everything if you think Marlene telling Joel "it's what she would want" somehow supports your claim that Joel believed Ellie had consented to the surgery.