Current Events > In 2021, we all agree that Joel was wrong correct? TLOU1 ending spoilers

(+) Yeah! (+)

the0rebirth posted...

There exists no exchange between Joel and Marlene in which it's directly confirmed that the latter didn't have Ellie's permission to perform the surgery.

Again:

https://youtu.be/yhNgialYLkE

WhenI see arguments like this where both sides strongly believe opposite things about the characters, I realize how good the story of the entertainment is. They made polarizing characters, which is a main goal of writers.

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TheOtherMike posted...

Again:

https://youtu.be/yhNgialYLkE

So we're right back where we started? Are you seriously going to pretend that I didn't give a detailed response to this just over an hour ago?

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Lost_All_Senses posted...

WhenI see arguments like this where both sides strongly believe opposite things about the characters, I realize how good the story of the entertainment is. They made polarizing characters, which is a main goal of writers.

I disagree entirely since one side is flat put ignoring everything that was said.

It wasn't supposed to be polarizing

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Teh_Dr_Phil posted...

I dont give a fuck whose game it is, lol. He gave you the option to stealth through without killing anyone. Abbys flashbacks have the hospital around the operating room empty with blood on the walls so its pretty clearly implied Joel did more than kill the surgeon.

Hes gone on record saying he did this intentionally because he didnt like that more people sided with Joel than against him in the decision to save Ellie.

Kinda silly to retcon him into killing a ton more people to try and brute force people into agreeing with your personal opinion <_<

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the0rebirth posted...

So we're right back where we started? Are you seriously going to pretend that I didn't give a detailed response to this just over an hour ago?

You gave a "detailed response" that amounted to "Joel didn't ask if they had her consent so it's not clear what he knew," which doesn't actually refute anything.

Joel: "Why are you letting this happen?"
Marlene: "Because this is bigger than me. It's bigger than her."

Not "because she said she wants to." Not "because I asked her."

You're being deliberately obtuse.

pikachupwnage posted...

Kinda silly to retcon him into killing a ton more people to try and brute force people into agreeing with your personal opinion <_<

not really?

Joel is established as a mass murderer in canon. Then he murdered Abby's dad and Marlene

It's no stretch to day its canon that he murdered a ton of fireflies

If he didnt, the posse in TLOU2 makes no real sense

Either way, Joel is still a grotesque person. Both games demonstrate that

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TheOtherMike posted...

You gave a "detailed response" that amounted to "Joel didn't ask if they had her consent so it's not clear what he knew," which doesn't actually refute anything.

Joel: "Why are you letting this happen?"
Marlene: "Because this is bigger than me. It's bigger than her."

Not "because she said she wants to." Not "because I asked her."

You're being deliberately obtuse.

And then Joel murderers Marlene and lies to Ellie because he knows she would have been on board...

so...

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UnfairRepresent posted...

And then Joel murderers Marlene and lies to Ellie because he knows she would have been on board...

so...

What does that have to do with Joel knowing they didn't have her consent?

JoelMiller95 posted...

That was never said in the game and Joel didn't think of that. Try again.

Its common sense

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He was a product of the world he lived in. Abby was no worse.

imagine606 posted...

He was a product of the world he lived in. Abby was no worse.

Abby was actually a much better person than him, she said that she would've wanted to sacrifice herself for the cure.

TheOtherMike posted...

You gave a "detailed response" that amounted to "Joel didn't ask if they had her consent so it's not clear what he knew," which doesn't actually refute anything.

Joel: "Why are you letting this happen?"
Marlene: "Because this is bigger than me. It's bigger than her."

Not "because she said she wants to." Not "because I asked her."

You're being deliberately obtuse.

"Then why are you letting this happen?" is a response to Marlene saying she promised Ellie's mother that she would look after her; whether Ellie gave consent or not, it can be reasoned that Joel would express shock at Marlene choosing to kill someone who was essentially her surrogate daughter. The greater context matters, so again, this doesn't make it explicitly clear that Marlene didn't receive Ellie's consent.

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Ellie was brought in unconscious, got resuscitated but was still unconscious.

We all know what Ellie wanted. That's not and shouldn't be disputed. However neither Marlene or Joel asked her what she wanted. Both parties decided for themselves, though Marlene was kinda coaxed into it by Jerry.

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TheOtherMike posted...

What does that have to do with Joel knowing they didn't have her consent?

The fact he didn't give a shit about her consent

He just wanted to keep her for himself and fuck the world. Ellie made him happy and have him purpose and he would let everyone in America burn and suffer to maintain that feeling after the world kicked him to the curb for decades and killed his daughter

Joel is a monster, both games make this vividly unambiguously clear

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Joel was a savage.

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the0rebirth posted...

"Then why are you letting this happen?" is a response to Marlene saying she promised Ellie's mother that she would look after her; whether Ellie gave consent or not, it can be reasoned that Joel would express shock at Marlene choosing to kill someone who was essentially her surrogate daughter. The greater context matters, so again, this doesn't make it explicitly clear that Marlene didn't receive Ellie's consent.

You're jumping through hoops to make explicit dialogue ambiguous.

UnfairRepresent posted...

The fact he didn't give a shit about her consent

The Fireflies forced Joel to act because they didn't give a shit about her consent. By the time Joel lies to her it's not like he can undo what's already been done. I don't necessarily agree with Joel's decision to lie to her, but I understand it. Telling her the truth wouldn't have accomplished anything beyond making her hate him and feel survivor's guilt for (potentially) the entire world.

I have never once said that Joel isn't overall a selfish and at times outright evil person, but wrt the Fireflies trying to murder Ellie he was 100% in the right.

TheOtherMike posted...

You're jumping through hoops to make explicit dialogue ambiguous.

It's not explicit; you've just obviously never had your framing of the events challenged. There's a reason Joel said "THEN why are you doing this"; it directly follows Marlene explaining her relationship with Ellie. The explanation gives the impression that Marlene would care too much about Ellie to be willing to sacrifice her, regardless of consent being provided. Which is why when Joel asks his question, Marlene replies that it isn't about being selfish. Again, context matters.

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the0rebirth posted...

It's not explicit

It indisputably is.

the0rebirth posted...

There's a reason Joel said "THEN why are you doing this"; it directly follows Marlene explaining her relationship with Ellie. The explanation gives the impression that Marlene would care too much about Ellie to be willing to sacrifice her, regardless of consent being provided. Which is why when Joel asks his question, Marlene replies that it's bigger than herself. Again, context matters.

TheOtherMike posted...

You're jumping through hoops to make explicit dialogue ambiguous.

TheOtherMike posted...

It indisputably is.

So basically, it's disputable and you just don't want to admit it. You're incapable of being objective -- duly noted.

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the0rebirth posted...

So basically, it's disputable and you just don't want to admit it. You're incapable of being objective -- duly noted.

Nope. It's indisputable and you being deliberately obtuse in order to "dispute" it.

Btw are people that say Joel did nothing wrong genuinely sociopaths? Do they not understand that millions of people are going to have a really harsh life and most likely come to a point where they have to kill themselves or a loved one or see a loved one die because of the outbreak and Joel was fine doing this no matter how you slice it. I mean there was even a scene in TLOU2 where Ellie and Joel saw a couple that were dead and there's was a horrifying note where the guy says that they were infected and he had to kill his girlfriend but was too much of a coward to kill himself and Ellie said "only if they were immune right?". Then Joel still has the audacity to lie to Ellie again about what happened.

TheOtherMike posted...

Nope. It's indisputable and you being deliberately obtuse in order to "dispute" it.

A: "I love the taste of peanut butter."
B: "Then why do you refuse to eat it?"
A: "Because it gives me a severe allergic reaction. I have no choice."

B's question of "then why do you refuse to eat it" clearly addresses the seemingly contradicting idea that A enjoys peanut butter.

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the0rebirth posted...

A: "I love the taste of peanut butter."
B: "Then why do you refuse to eat it?"
A: "Because it gives me a severe allergic reaction. I have no choice."

B's question of "then why do you refuse to eat it" clearly addresses the seemingly contradicting idea that A enjoys peanut butter.

This has nothing to do with anything.

UnfairRepresent posted...

I disagree entirely since one side is flat put ignoring everything that was said.

It wasn't supposed to be polarizing

Im not saying nobody in here is completely off base, but if you look pass a good character you can speculate on intention and not just take everything they say at face value. Just cause a character says they want something, doesn't mean that they can back it up. When you create deeper characters, you can question what their intention or ability is when factoring in what they're telling you. A character might say they want one thing, but the characters past behavior or story makes you question how honest or self aware what they're saying actually is.

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Oh god, just make it stop already
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TheOtherMike posted...

This has nothing to do with anything.

Quit being obtuse; the parallel is obvious. Marlene tells Joel that she cares about Ellie more than he can imagine ("i love the taste of peanut butter"); a confused Joel then asks why she'd greenlight the surgery ("then why do you refuse to eat it"); Marlene clarifies that it's not about what she wants ("i have no choice").

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the0rebirth posted...

Quit being obtuse; the parallel is obvious. Marlene tells Joel that she cares about Ellie more than he can imagine ("i love the taste of peanut butter"); a confused Joel then asks why she'd greenlight the surgery ("then why do you refuse to eat it"); Marlene clarifies that it's not about what she wants ("i have no choice").

Marlene's conflicted emotions have nothing to do with Joel knowing they didn't have Ellie's consent. Fucking christ, dude.

TheOtherMike posted...

Marlene's conflicted emotions have nothing to do with Joel knowing they didn't have Ellie's consent. Fucking christ, dude.

You used dialogue that wasnt necessarily about consent, and asserted that its definitely about consent. Again, personal inference; not explicit information. Fucking Christ, dude.

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the0rebirth posted...

You used dialogue that wasnt necessarily about consent, and asserted that its definitely about consent. Again, personal inference; not explicit information. Fucking Christ, dude.

TheOtherMike posted...

Joel: "Why are you letting this happen?"
Marlene: "Because this is bigger than me. It's bigger than her."

Not "because she said she wants to." Not "because I asked her."

You're being deliberately obtuse.

So basically, it's disputable and you just don't want to admit it. You're incapable of being objective -- duly noted.

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Like sure, lets just ignore Joels clear confusion at the apparent contrast between Marlene saying she cares about Ellie, and being willing to greenlight the surgery. Because that has everything to do with consent, and couldnt possibly just mean Joel is confused as to why Marlene doesnt have the same paternal instincts > the world attitude that he does.

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This is exactly what I said was going to happen.

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I'm being objective. You, meanwhile, have to use phrases like "it can be reasoned that" and "the explanation gives the impression that" in order to make your fanfic work. Try actually responding this time.

TheOtherMike posted...

Joel: "Why are you letting this happen?"
Marlene: "Because this is bigger than me. It's bigger than her."

Not "because she said she wants to." Not "because I asked her."

TheOtherMike posted...

I'm being objective. You, meanwhile, have to use phrases like "it can be reasoned that" and "the explanation gives the impression that" in order to make your fanfic work. Try actually responding this time.

You're NOT being objective, because your entire argument is "the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence". Again, there exists no exchange between Joel and Marlene in which it's directly confirmed that the latter didn't seek Ellie's permission. It's my interpretation of the dialogue versus yours, but only one of us is pretending their interpretation is indisputable.

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the0rebirth posted...

Again, there exists no exchange between Joel and Marlene in which it's directly confirmed that the latter didn't seek Ellie's permission.

I've linked it at least twice.

tbf, for example, a couple of parents could discuss their son joining the army, and one of them saying that they support him, and the other saying something like, "why are you letting this happen?"

obviously it's not the same scenario, but in some situations, people feel like there are those who feel they have a kinda "executive" position over others (parents over their kids included), and a person exercising/ not exercising that authority can be called out on it.

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TheOtherMike posted...

I've linked it at least twice.

Sorry, I still don't see any dialogue where it's directly confirmed that consent wasn't sought.

What I do see, however, is you arrogantly asserting that Marlene not giving a specific answer to Joel's question (which was only asked because Marlene had just expressed how much she cares about Ellie) is undeniable proof that she didn't receive Ellie's consent. Your argument would make a lot more sense if Marlene had told Joel, "Ellie wouldn't want this", and THEN Joel said "Then why are you letting it happen?" But that's not what happened. Marlene explained that she loves Ellie; Joel then asks "then why are you letting this happen" (as in, "if you care so much about her, why would you be willing to sacrifice her?"), and Marlene replies that it's simply necessary.

The framing of Joel's confusion and question is based on Marlene claiming she cares a lot for Ellie; it's not based on her failure to receive Ellie's consent.

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g0ldie posted...

tbf, for example, a couple of parents could discuss their son joining the army, and one of them saying that they support him, and the other saying something like, "why are you letting this happen?"

obviously it's not the same scenario, but in some situations, people feel like there are those who feel they have a kinda "executive" position over others (parents over their kids included), and a person exercising/ not exercising that authority can be called out on it.

See, you get it. Why can't Mike?

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Regardless of whether or not Joel assumed they hadnt gotten consent, that wasnt his motivation for saving Ellie so its a moot point. Hed have killed everyone and saved Ellie regardless, because hes selfish and emotionally damaged. Both he & Marlene did the same thing (ignored Ellies agency), but for different reasons.

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the0rebirth posted...

Sorry, I still don't see any dialogue where it's directly confirmed that consent wasn't sought.

Because you're deliberately choosing to misunderstand the scene.

the0rebirth posted...

What I do see, however, is you arrogantly asserting that Marlene not giving a specific answer to Joel's question (which was only asked because Marlene had just expressed how much she cares about Ellie) is undeniable proof that she didn't receive Ellie's consent.

Because it is. If she had Ellie's consent she would have told Joel that. Instead she refuses to let him even see her and has him marched out at gunpoint with orders to shoot him if he tries anything. This explicitly conveys that Ellie either didn't agree to or doesn't even know that they plan to operate.

There's also no way Ellie wouldn't want to see Joel, whether she agreed to the procedure or not. The obvious and only conclusion is that Ellie's agency has been compromised.

the0rebirth posted...

The framing of Joel's confusion and question is based on Marlene claiming she cares a lot for Ellie; it's not based on her failure to receive Ellie's consent.

I never said otherwise, and this doesn't contradict anything I've said. Joel can absolutely be confused about Marlene's contradictory emotions and actions while also being aware that Ellie's "sacrifice" hasn't been consented to.

@the0rebirth There is direct evidence though. Marlene tells Joel "It's what she would want and you know it." If you ask someone if they want something and they say yes, you don't later say they "would have" wanted it, you say they want it. Saying someone "would" want something means you didn't directly ask them but you're inferring that they'd want it based on their personality and character.

Answering TC's question, I don't believe the Fireflies had any real shot of making a vaccine for the infection and even if they did, most of the human population are either hunters or infected so it would have been a waste.

No one was good

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TheOtherMike posted...

Because you're deliberately choosing to misunderstand the scene.

I've already proved that your interpretation is a subjective one.

Because it is. If she had Ellie's consent she would have told Joel that.

Assumption. They never discussed consent in the first place.

Instead she refuses to let him even see her and has him marched out at gunpoint with orders to shoot him if he tries anything. This explicitly conveys that Ellie either didn't agree to or doesn't even know that they plan to operate.

No, it doesn't. She refuses to let him see her because she's being prepped for surgery. Joel then says "Listen, you are gonna show me where--" while walking up to Marlene in a clearly threatening manner, and THEN gets subdued/threatened at gunpoint. Again, context is your friend.

There's also no way Ellie wouldn't want to see Joel, whether she agreed to the procedure or not. The obvious and only conclusion is that Ellie's agency has been compromised.

The only strong EVIDENCE you've stated so far; I've been waiting for you to bring this up. Still, this doesn't PROVE that Marlene didn't seek consent. What PROVES it is when Ellie wakes up, and we discover that her last memory was nearly drowning with Joel.

I never said otherwise, and this doesn't contradict anything I've said. Joel can absolutely be confused about Marlene's contradictory emotions and actions while also being aware that Ellie's "sacrifice" hasn't been consented to.

Except that you have no proof of the latter. You're free to believe that it's implied in Joel and Marlene's conversation, but it's never outright confirmed that consent wasn't sought until later.


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XxAxem_BlackxX posted...

@the0rebirth There is direct evidence though. Marlene tells Joel "It's what she would want and you know it." If you ask someone if they want something and they say yes, you don't later say they "would have" wanted it, you say they want it. Saying someone "would" want something means you didn't directly ask them but you're inferring that they'd want it based on their personality and character.

This has already even addressed. My argument is that Joel wasn't aware of whether or not Marlene had been given consent when they initially conversed, and that it wasn't his concern anyway since he would have killed everyone to save Ellie's life regardless.

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Oh christ it's still going

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Oh christ it's still going

Dude, if it bothers you so much, why do you keep checking back in? Just literally ignore the topic.

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the0rebirth posted...

This has already even addressed. My argument is that Joel wasn't aware of whether or not Marlene had consent during their initial conversation, and that it wasn't his concern anyway as he would have killed everyone to save her life regardless.

What Joel was aware of has nothing to do with the fact that it's improper to say somebody "would want" something unless you didn't ask them. She would have said "It's what she wants." "Would want" implies a lack of direct knowledge.

Dude, you're wrong. Get over it.

TheOtherMike posted...

Dude, you're wrong. Get over it.

You have no argument. But thanks for lying again by saying youd only respond to my sassy comments, and instead indulging my full argument.

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