Poll of the Day > Florida becomes latest State to Ban Trans-girls from Female Atheletics...

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-governor-signs-bill-targeting-transgender-athletes-1st/story

right during PRIDE Month...

do you agree with this decision? (Poll Question)

I am all for equal rights, but I believe when it comes to competitive sports there should be a line. Both for safety and fairness.

Now for friendly clubs and all that, mixed away.

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they have a biological advantage
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The laws make a lot of sense, but I'd rather see the push come more from feminists.

pionear posted...

right during PRIDE Month...

...laws can't take vacations. If that shit worked, they'd just pull pride year every year to get around legislation. And pride celebrations for things you have no control over are stupid. People should be proud of the things they do, rather than things they're born with.

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Krazy_Kirby posted...

they have a biological advantage

While true, that's really not unique to trans athletes. Virtually all leading athletes have some sort of biological advantage over their peers (hence they win despite not training any harder). If biological advantages are going to be used to separate leagues, there's a whole lot more than just sex/gender to consider there.

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adjl posted...

While true, that's really not unique to trans athletes. Virtually all leading athletes have some sort of biological advantage over their peers (hence they win despite not training any harder). If biological advantages are going to be used to separate leagues, there's a whole lot more than just sex/gender to consider there.

much bigger gap.

high school boys have regularly beaten pro women teams.

and boxing has weight classes
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they're gunna ban trans-men from home ec, right?

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adjl posted...

While true, that's really not unique to trans athletes. Virtually all leading athletes have some sort of biological advantage over their peers (hence they win despite not training any harder). If biological advantages are going to be used to separate leagues, there's a whole lot more than just sex/gender to consider there.

I mean, I guess, but we DO in fact separate men and womens sports leagues so as long as thats still the case, this legislation makes sense.

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I didn't know this website was so transphobic.

Zeus posted...

People should be proud of the things they do,

Such as coming out despite persistent societal opposition to it? Or for the lucky ones that have nothing to fear (which, incidentally, includes exactly 0 trans people in the US), supporting their friends and other community members that have faced more challenges?

This whole "being gay isn't something to be proud of" attitude relies on the assumption that the experience of being gay, trans, or otherwise queer is no different from the experience of being straight or cis. It's really not. Trying to treat it as though it is is profoundly ignorant.

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adjl posted...

Such as coming out despite persistent societal opposition to it? Or for the lucky ones that have nothing to fear (which, incidentally, includes exactly 0 trans people in the US), supporting their friends and other community members that have faced more challenges?

This whole "being gay isn't something to be proud of" attitude relies on the assumption that the experience of being gay, trans, or otherwise queer is no different from the experience of being straight or cis. It's really not. Trying to treat it as though it is is profoundly ignorant.

Which might have been valid arguments in the 1960s or 1970s, but are laughable today given that the pendulum has swung very far in the other direction. And ultimately people risk social scorn for any number of things they do. Why merely highlight this?

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Krazy_Kirby posted...

much bigger gap.

high school boys have regularly beaten pro women teams.

and boxing has weight classes

And how are we defining that gap? What constitutes enough of a difference to warrant segregation? What about trans women who started transitioning early enough to take puberty blockers? What about trans women who don't personally have an advantage over the cis female athletes with whom they want to compete, despite their extra testosterone? Is the gap large enough in all sports to warrant segregating them as they currently are?

At face value, the "biological advantage" excuse is an easy one. It makes sense, it fits into pre-established segregation patterns, and that makes it really tempting to stop there. In truth, the whole issue is substantially more nuanced than can be adequately covered with blanket statements about what trans people are allowed to do, and calls into question whether or not sex is a reasonable basis on which to divide leagues in the first place.

YoukaiSlayer posted...

I mean, I guess, but we DO in fact separate men and womens sports leagues so as long as thats still the case, this legislation makes sense.

Really, that's the thing: It makes sense only if you rely on the delineation that already exists. Things are already this way, but why are they this way? Is that a way that should persist, or would something else work better?

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it's absolutely reasonable to divide sports based on sex...

as I said, there are multiple stories about pro women's teams losing to highschool boys
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Zeus posted...

Which might have been valid arguments in the 1960s or 1970s, but are laughable today given that the pendulum has swung very far in the other direction. And ultimately people risk social scorn for any number of things they do. Why merely highlight this?

In 22 states, it is legal to murder a trans person if the murderer claims they panicked when they found out the person was trans. In a further 15 states, bans on that defense are merely being considered, but have not yet been implemented. Only 13 states have actually banned its use, meaning everywhere else, a judge won't immediately throw it out.

Yes, people risk social scorn for wearing a funny-looking hat, but to consider that even remotely equivalent to what LGBT people have to contend with (even today, as much as things are light years better than they were even just 20 years ago) would be hilariously sheltered if people weren't literally dying over such ignorance. And that's even without considering that it's perfectly reasonable to take pride in being part of a community that has overcome so much of the oppression to which you allude.

Zeus posted...

the pendulum has swung very far in the other direction.

What is this even supposed to mean? Are you trying to say that straight people are now brutally oppressed?

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Krazy_Kirby posted...

it's absolutely reasonable to divide sports based on sex...

as I said, there are multiple stories about pro women's teams losing to highschool boys

Protip: When somebody challenges you to consider the nuance of the situation, a response that actually rises to that challenge is probably going to consist of more than two sentences. Especially when one of those sentences is effectively a thesis statement and the other is an anecdote of very limited scope.

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Look, man. Im sorry but trans girls have an advantage. They also need to ban people who have used PEDs in the past even if theyre clean now. The juice causes unnatural muscle mass, and even though the person may stop using them theyre still automatically at a higher starting point than anyone who has never used them.

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Zeus posted...

...laws can't take vacations. If that s*** worked, they'd just pull pride year every year to get around legislation. And pride celebrations for things you have no control over are stupid. People should be proud of the things they do, rather than things they're born with.

But they could've been more considerate about it tho...

I wonder if Zeus actually believes that this wasn't deliberately timed to coincide with Pride Month.

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Trans men shouldn't be able to compete with women because they (presumably) use steroids (which makes them inelligable to compete).

Trans women should still be able to compete with men in my opinion because they were born biologically a man, and in theory the drugs they take (estrogen I think) are not considered a steroid and won't give them an advantage in the sport.

They still would naturally create more testosterone then a natural women though, have denser bones/muscles etc which would give them an advantage playing against natural women, so the only solution is to allow trans-women to still compete against men.

The only other solution is just to take gender out of the equation all together and not have men/women leages but have everyone compete together. That would be pretty unfair to natural women though in most cases since they can't usually compete well against men in the same sport.

Therefore, to keep things as fair as possible I propose.

Trans-women can compete against normal men and join normal male teams.

Trans-men who take steroids can compete against normal women in any sport where steroids is not an issue (not sure if many such sports exist...maybe some do. IF a trans-man doesn't use steroids at all, and has no advantage over a normal woman (could still have sugery etc, just can't take drugs to make themselves more masculine, and can identify as a man) then they could still compete against normal women.

Gender identity shouldn't have any effect on who you can compete against profesionally. You can identify as whatever you want. The defining factor should be birth gender and if you are taking any drugs that would give you an advantage that would disqualify you.

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Lokarin posted...

they're gunna ban trans-men from home ec, right?

YoukaiSlayer posted...

I mean, I guess, but we DO in fact separate men and womens sports leagues so as long as thats still the case, this legislation makes sense.

Except it doesn't and it is sad that you haven't realized you are agreeing with fucking FLORIDA! That is America's toilet you are agreeing with.

I think it's hilarious the idiots defending equal rights blah blah blah even when you start to see transpersons breaking every single record when competing against those born female

Yeah, that's totally fair and just for the rights of the actual women lololol

Good on them

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Trans women athletes have been able to participate in the Olympics since 2004. I guess all the cis women being dominated for almost the last 20 years in the Olympics has raised this issue. (Actually there isn't a single medalist since)

Let's all pretend you all in favor of these types of laws gave a **** about women's sports before it became an acceptable way to bash trans people.

Laws like this hurt all women more than protect cis women.

IronBornCorps posted...

Trans women athletes have been able to participate in the Olympics since 2004. I guess all the cis women being dominated for almost the last 20 years in the Olympics has raised this issue. (Actually there isn't a single medalist since)

This. Most people who argue in favor of these restrictions are arguing from ignorance. They assume this is a massive problem because it's hyped up as such. It isn't.

For more nuanced talks on the subject, I refer people to these videos as jumping off points. I think the last 3 are the most useful. Speed them up if you watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpHAlFaQVKI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkBjHqXPwuo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl6RGUkwQmo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIeXvwp86JQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsE_y0FjgcM

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People love staying in a state of willful ignorance about this subject for some reason

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IronBornCorps posted...

Let's all pretend you all in favor of these types of laws gave a **** about women's sports before it became an acceptable way to bash trans people.

This. Before this trans issue became such a hot topic I constantly saw women's sports being denigrated on this site. Actually even fairly recently, when the US women's soccer team were protesting their pay compared to the vastly less successful men's team. The Politics board was awash in misogyny saying how women's soccer is trash, nobody watches it compared to the men, they don't play as much as the men (even though its one of the sports where they have the same playing time). The fact that some didn't even know that last basic point tells you they don't watch anything. Indeed any sports poll you see on this site tells you the vast majority don't care about sports at all, far less women's sports.

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Mead posted...

People love staying in a state of willful ignorance about this subject for some reason

Probably because whenever they actually take the time to learn the facts, they quickly start to realize that they're just being assholes for no reason, so they go back to knowing nothing so they don't have to feel bad.

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Probably general lack of awareness at the time.

But awareness is only a good thing when it fits your agenda, I suppose.

But keep ignoring competitive unfairness for the sake of a certain demographic feeling better about themselves. Yeah, I think that's a good call

Maybe being more in touch with reality would solve both issues

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