Poll of the Day > At what age should gender be given

(+) Yeah! (+)

4 years old or 6

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Umm... what?

Let the kid do whatever...

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Whenever the child decides their gender I guess

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....

When the doctor looks at their junk

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Gender isnt given, like sexuality isnt given.

AwesomeTurtwig posted...

When the doctor looks at their junk

This. Allow them to change and make up their own fantasies later.

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Everyone should be a neuter until the age of 20. Then their genitals form all at once at 2:36 pm on April 15th.
There, now everyone is equally confused.

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Before birth, whenever the doctors can tell by the ultrasound.

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Sex is clearly assigned at birth and normally folk will call their kid a boy or gal based on that at birth. This is all I know and ever will know. If the kid when older feels differently then that's a different matter. Until then a spade is a spade.

Jackal4 posted...

Before birth, whenever the doctors can tell by the ultrasound.

Some don't want to know the sex at that point though and I think that's fine. I'd probably not want to know until birth myself.

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At birth. They can change later, of course. I know some people who think you should call a child by gender neutral terms from birth until they choose. I disagree with that...
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LinkPizza posted...

At birth. They can change later, of course. I know some people who think you should call a child by gender neutral terms from birth until they choose. I disagree with that...

If I did that I'd feel I'm projecting my own views onto a innocent mind. Not once have I ever called my Niece or Nephews general natural terms too. If I did that would probably tell me "I'm a boy/girl" anyway as they are far too young to even comprehend these things.

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Can we refer to them as "poop machines" until they can walk and talk?

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I'm referring to my kid as He or She based on whatever sexual reproduction organ they were born with. If they get older and begin to question their gender identity, sexuality, or whatever else, then I will support whatever conclusion they come to. Until then, there's nothing wrong with saying He or She.

I don't even honor my children with a name until they survive past the culling, let alone a gender.

JigsawTDC posted...

I don't even honor my children with a name until they survive past the culling, let alone a gender.

Children shouldn't even be given names until they're old enough to decide for themselves. What if I didn't want to be called Christopher. My parents were so inconsiderate for assuming I'd like this name. I identify more as a Roland.

I think it would be neat if it were considered normal to change your name upon reaching adulthood.

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Kungfu Kenobi posted...

I think it would be neat if it were considered normal to change your name upon reaching adulthood.

New idea. Up to the age of 4 they are just called "child".
On their 4th birthday they choose their own name.
On their 18th birthday they undergo some right of passage and are given a name.
If they chose poorly they're stuck with it for 14 years. Other people decide what they get stuck with after that.

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InfestedAdam posted...

Can we refer to them as "poop machines" until they can walk and talk?

Hell, can we call them that until they move out and are self sufficient?

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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

On their 4th birthday they choose their own name.

Be prepared for lots of kids named Batman and Princess.

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People are generally not independent thinkers until around age 12. Raise them typically until then. Little kids are idiots and can't be trusted to define such enormous things. The best approach is to go with the flow but still have boundaries for everything. If your son likes Barbies, he likes Barbies, and that's fine. But don't shovel some art degree thesis on "you're a girl or have no gender, etc." up his ass. Let him make that decision later when he has the introspection to understand the whole thing better. It could mean something, it could mean nothing. Nobody knows until later, even if it seems like he's different.

wwinterj25 posted...

If I did that I'd feel I'm projecting my own views onto a innocent mind. Not once have I ever called my Niece or Nephews general natural terms too. If I did that would probably tell me "I'm a boy/girl" anyway as they are far too young to even comprehend these things.

So what? You gonna refuse to teach them as well? Refuse any form of education that is 'projecting your views' like that r*** is wrong or that being a n*** is a bad thing? That clothes should be worn and the proper response to greeting someone isn't to blow whipped cream into their eyes and steal their wallet? That one religion is true or that no religion is true or that it's wrong to projecting a belief system onto someone? Because refusing to project a view onto an innocent mind is, in of itself, projecting a view onto an innocent mind.

You're free to teach them how you think boys/girls should be raised. You can raise them completely independently of the stupid ideas of masculinity and femininity that society preaches (the very fact that boys are told to bottle up and/or ignore their emotions along...) But don't say that you're going to raise them like that for that reason when doing so contradicts the very reason you're doing it.

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Raddest_Chad posted...

People are generally not independent thinkers until around age 12. Raise them typically until then. Little kids are idiots and can't be trusted to define such enormous things. The best approach is to go with the flow but still have boundaries for everything. If your son likes Barbies, he likes Barbies, and that's fine. But don't shovel some art degree thesis on "you're a girl or have no gender, etc." up his ass. Let him make that decision later when he has the introspection to understand the whole thing better. It could mean something, it could mean nothing. Nobody knows until later, even if it seems like he's different.

I'd say most people are idiots until the age of 25 until they get a stable job. Until then? Mostly entitled idiots.

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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

New idea. Up to the age of 4 they are just called "child".

On F is for Family, Kevin thought his name was "The Accident" for the first five years of his life, which, according to Frank, was a "playful joke" between him and Sue.

Zareth posted...

Be prepared for lots of kids named Batman and Princess.

Yep. I can easily see this...

Unbridled9 posted...

So what? You gonna refuse to teach them as well? Refuse any form of education that is 'projecting your views' like that r*** is wrong or that being a n*** is a bad thing? That clothes should be worn and the proper response to greeting someone isn't to blow whipped cream into their eyes and steal their wallet? That one religion is true or that no religion is true or that it's wrong to projecting a belief system onto someone? Because refusing to project a view onto an innocent mind is, in of itself, projecting a view onto an innocent mind.

You're free to teach them how you think boys/girls should be raised. You can raise them completely independently of the stupid ideas of masculinity and femininity that society preaches (the very fact that boys are told to bottle up and/or ignore their emotions along...) But don't say that you're going to raise them like that for that reason when doing so contradicts the very reason you're doing it.

Edit: Vaccines are another one. You get the kid vaccinated or refuse to get them vaccinated you're making a choice for them that they can't reasonably make for themselves and pushing a worldview on them (that vaccines are good/bad) instead of letting them make a choice for themselves. I don't think most sane people would claim for a second that vaccinating your child is a bad thing but it's hard to deny that it IS a similar choice to the one you're talking about here. Want to say 'but science says vaccines are good'? Well science ALSO says that there's only XX and XY humans unless you're part of an extremely small grouping. So refusing to raise the child as what matches their genetic information would be unscientific.

Jeez... All he said was he didn't want to call his niece and nephew gender neutral terms for no reason. I'm sure if they asked him to, he would...
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Well... That's what happens when you post at 3:30 in the morning and are half super aware and focused and thinking of arguments you never even realized could BE arguments and half wondering if you're in a dream and if internet arguments basically unfold like Yu Gi Oh duels or not. I'm deleting now since I see my statement makes no sense in context.

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Unbridled9 posted...

Well...

Was your rant aimed at me? Seems like you are reaching with a lot of it so I just skimmed over it.

Unbridled9 posted...

I'm deleting now since I see my statement makes no sense in context.

Fair. You're not wrong. It made no sense.

LinkPizza posted...

Jeez... All he said was he didn't want to call his niece and nephew gender neutral terms for no reason. I'm sure if they asked him to, he would...

I mean I thought my post was clear that they think of themselves as what they were born as so that's what they are. Fun fact I used to play with my sisters barbie dolls when younger but still have never thought as myself as anything other than a boy/man. I'd probably look great in a win and sexy one piece though.

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LinkPizza posted...

On F is for Family, Kevin thought his name was "The Accident" for the first five years of his life, which, according to Frank, was a "playful joke" between him and Sue.

Yep. I can easily see this...

Jeez... All he said was he didn't want to call his niece and nephew gender neutral terms for no reason. I'm sure if they asked him to, he would...

I mean, he went a bit overboard but his argument makes sense. Not wanting to "project" your own beliefs onto a toddler is a weird reason to not call them by the gender pronoun inherently connected to their genitals. We "project" beliefs onto them for literally every other thing in existence. It doesn't mean that they aren't allowed to challenge those beliefs when they get older.

GunslingerGunsl posted...

Not wanting to "project" your own beliefs onto a toddler

Whoever said anything about a toddler? Still the argument you're making doesn't make any sense at all as I call my niece and nephews a girl and boys as that's what they are. They haven't requested me to call them anything other than that but if they did or my sister told me that's what they wish to be called then that's fine too. My believes are not coming into it at all.

We "project" beliefs onto them for literally every other thing in existence.

Speak for yourself. Some people just like to watch the world burn.


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wwinterj25 posted...

Whoever said anything about a toddler? Still the argument you're making doesn't make any sense at all as I call my niece and nephews a girl and boys as that's what they are. They haven't requested me to call them anything other than that but if they did or my sister told me that's what they wish to be called then that's fine too. My believes are not coming into it at all.

Speak for yourself. Some people just like to watch the world burn.

I'm literally agreeing with you, winter. Jesus.

GunslingerGunsl posted...

I'm literally agreeing with you, winter. Jesus.

Fight me.

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From birth and until the child perhaps decides to change it for themself.

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wwinterj25 posted...

Fight me.

Playground. Noon. Your face will eat dirt.

Gender doesn't matter unless you make it matter.

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GunslingerGunsl posted...

Playground. Noon. Your face will eat dirt.

Yeah! Well! I;ll show you! .... *runs away*


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@wwinterj25

Weird. Gamefaqs wouldn't let me quote your edited post.

Anyway, you're right. I misread your response to him. I actually am disagreeing with you. But it's also weird because I'm not sure exactly why you disagree with unbridled based on what you said.

I just went back through the topic to figure out what we disagree about and I can't figure it out. Just fight me dammit.

At whatever age the sorting hat fits their heads.


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GunslingerGunsl posted...

I mean, he went a bit overboard but his argument makes sense. Not wanting to "project" your own beliefs onto a toddler is a weird reason to not call them by the gender pronoun inherently connected to their genitals. We "project" beliefs onto them for literally every other thing in existence. It doesn't mean that they aren't allowed to challenge those beliefs when they get older.

I believe Winter was saying he would call them "he" or "she" instead of gender neutral. But I also believe Winter would probably call his niece and nephew gender neutral terms if they asked...
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-1

The parents decides for the child before they conceive and use genetic engineering tp change unwanted results.
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LinkPizza posted...

I believe Winter was saying he would call them "he" or "she" instead of gender neutral. But I also believe Winter would probably call his niece and nephew gender neutral terms if they asked...

Which is basically what I was agreeing with. I would do the same. What I was saying originally is that I dont see the point in NOT using standard he/she pronouns as a descriptive term for babies and toddlers up until an age where they actually can ask to be called something different.

I think where the confusion started is where winter implied that calling them by a gender neutral term at birth would be projecting views onto them. I didnt realize that he was the one who originally said that.

i've been raising my daughter as female. i know, i'm a monster, aren't i?

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Aculo posted...

i've been raising my daughter as female. i know, i'm a monster, aren't i?

True, she may actually come out normal.

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I think it's fine to assign a gender to a child at birth based on its genitals, but I do think you should be a bit more open-minded to them selecting on their own should they be intersex. I know that is a statistical anomaly, but it's also a statistical reality.

That being said, I don't believe in a lot of gender attributes as society seems to, so I would probably present a lot of things that would be 'gendered' by other people as neutral (tasks, attitudes, etc). If they chose a different gender at some point, that's their choice.

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GunslingerGunsl posted...

Just fight me dammit.

Violence is never he answer. :3

LinkPizza posted...

I believe Winter was saying he would call them "he" or "she" instead of gender neutral. But I also believe Winter would probably call his niece and nephew gender neutral terms if they asked...

You really understand me.

GunslingerGunsl posted...

I think where the confusion started is where winter implied that calling them by a gender neutral term at birth would be projecting views onto them. I didnt realize that he was the one who originally said that.

I did indeed say that's the way I'd feel.

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Age four seems to be the time at which a child has more or less formulated and understood their identity in this regard.

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Gaawa_chan posted...

Age four seems to be the time at which a child has more or less formulated and understood their identity in this regard.

I'm male, born male, but gender still confused me beyond the age of four. I was like...okay...that boy has long hair...but adults said that girls usually have long hair. Then I got told that certain attributes were masculine, and some were feminine, but I witnessed far too much crossover.

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If sex and gender are supposed to be separate ideas, why does it seem like people from 'both sides' are constantly conflating the two?

Sex is determined at birth. Gender is realized by the individual in question over time, and not at any one specific moment, and is certainly not 'given' to them unless they are being oppressed.

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