Board 8 > If you use rewind/save state to finish a game, did you beat it?

(+) Yeah! (+)

wg64Z posted...

As beat? No. This isn't hard to understand, why are you having trouble getting this?

You literally just said using the whistle counts because they beat World 8 with pure skill. So if someone uses save states or rewind in World 3 or something and beats World 8 without them it should count too. Why is skipping World 3 entirely more legitimate than beating it with save states?

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the fact that there's already a distinction between beating and completing makes the arbitrarily added bar for "beating" so silly

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I agree with wg here. One guy used an emulator cheat function, one didn't. That's all that matters.

It's not strictly about skill or "feeling superior" to anyone, because (as pointed out) it's entirely possible the other guy is a better player and displayed more skill on the intermediate levels. Skill is separate from legitimacy.

For another more extreme example, you could have one guy do a ridiculously impressive TAS speedrun on hardest difficulty, while another guy barely limps through the final boss on easy. First guy is better but it's not a legit clear.

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Gatarix posted...

I agree with wg here. One guy used an emulator cheat function, one didn't. That's all that matters.

but why does that matter

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Gatarix posted...

I agree with wg here. One guy used an emulator cheat function, one didn't. That's all that matters.

But what's the difference if they both beat World 8 without any help?

Like, if Player A uses a whistle, skips to World 8, and is considered to have beaten the game, then why does it matter if Player B plays the whole game, uses rewind on World 3, but then beats World 8 legit? Why does the rewind on World 3 change anything when Player A didn't even play World 3?

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Because in one case the game allows you to cheat but not the other

These are the people keeping Barry Bonds out of the Hall of Fame

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Gatarix posted...

I agree with wg here. One guy used an emulator cheat function, one didn't. That's all that matters.

Fair, if you're using a third-party emulator. But if you're playing on Switch and Nintendo deliberately but the option right there I don't see how it's cheating. (or if it's built in like on the Mega Man Legacy Collection)

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so would you differentiate between a game that gets released on a system like the virtual console that lets you create save states from a menu outside the game, vs a game where in the first level, yoshi pops up and says "by the way, you can press Y to create or load save states at any time!"?

wg64Z posted...

Again, it's beatable though. If it was solely designed to kill you it would be a room of spikes.

This game is frequently littered with slowdown; it's not generally optimized. I'm not sure what the guy in this video used, but this is where people usually die. And then they have to start over and over and over... notice that this is a 30 minute video. This game sucked, and it was only this hard because of wonky jumping and system limitations.

https://youtu.be/VBd7Qs0SMZE?t=419

You guys are getting hung up on these corner cases about what qualifies as beating a game without realizing that it's a two-way street. Everyone who says that save states count more than likely has their own definition of what does and does not count as beating a game, and any boundary you decide on short of "They can't beat it unless they've played it" will always have some edge case that you "what about" to.

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MZero11 posted...

But if you're playing on Switch and Nintendo deliberately but the option right there I don't see how it's cheating.

So like... if Game Genie was a Nintendo branded peripheral is it not cheating? Like I'm not sure why it being a Nintendo Brand Emulator makes a difference?

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Lopen posted...

So like... if Game Genie was a Nintendo branded peripheral is it not cheating? Like I'm not sure why it being a Nintendo Brand Emulator makes a difference?

To me, the difference is pretty much if it's a part of any official version of the game, it's not cheating. A Nintendo-branded Game Genie still wouldn't be a part of the game, so calling its use cheating would be fair to me.

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It's not a part of the game though. It's a feature of the Switch NES emulator. Every NES game on the switch has these features so it's not tied to the games themselves whatsoever.

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Grimlyn posted...

Gatarix posted...

I agree with wg here. One guy used an emulator cheat function, one didn't. That's all that matters.

but why does that matter

Honestly, I don't have a great answer for this question, except that I'd hesitate to put it on my games beaten list or count it for the Board 8 Games Challenge under such circumstances. Do I care too much about lists? Probably. But it's part of the board 8 experience imo.

(Also I'm not a hyper-purist about these things. Like I said, I'd use save states to save during long RPG dungeons and still count it. But if I were using them to circumvent, say, clean execution of a long platforming segment, then I'd consider that cheating.)
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Lopen posted...

It's not a part of the game though. It's a feature of the Switch NES emulator. Every NES game on the switch has these features so it's not tied to the games themselves whatsoever.

It's tied to the Switch versions of those games. Every single Switch port having them does not mean they're not a part of said versions.

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Lopen posted...

So like... if Game Genie was a Nintendo branded peripheral is it not cheating? Like I'm not sure why it being a Nintendo Brand Emulator makes a difference?

It would have to be built into the system by default to be the same. In which case it would depend what cheats you used imo just like how you used save states matters

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MetalmindStats posted...

It's tied to the Switch versions of those games. Every single Switch port having them does not mean they're not a part of said versions.

Actually it literally does mean that-- it wasn't a conscious design decision to add it to each Switch port. They didn't modify the ROMs or anything.

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A new challenger has arrived

Paying someone to play the game for you vs level skipping vs savestates/rewinds which one you got

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Lopen posted...

Actually it literally does mean that-- it wasn't a conscious design decision to add it to each Switch port. They didn't modify the ROMs or anything.

To me, it doesn't matter that it wasn't a conscious design decision or that they didn't modify the ROMs; those are only distinctions on a technical level. The fact remains that the Switch versions of these games have a rewind feature, and all Switch versions of NES games having that feature, including for technical purposes, doesn't change that fact.

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MetalmindStats posted...

To me, it doesn't matter that it wasn't a conscious design decision or that they didn't modify the ROMs; those are only distinctions on a technical level. The fact remains that the Switch versions of these games have a rewind feature, and all Switch versions of NES games having that feature, including for technical purposes, doesn't change that fact.

I would say you're the one arguing on a technical basis here more than me but whatever. Agree to disagree I guess-- there really is no more place for the argument to go.

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I think it was a conscious design decision to allow it in every game or else they just wouldn't have included it at all, so it's not really the same thing as Gamegenie or whatever

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UltimaterializerX posted...

His twin sister (who came out of the womb normal) is actually trying to teach him how Switch rewind works, which is the cutest thing ever and clearly shows more humanity and more love than a lot of people in this topic are capable of.

Cause if you think games are not legit beaten by using save states you aren't capable of humanity or love...

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Lopen posted...

Paying someone to play the game for you

new entry: paying someone to carry your dead corpse through endgame mmo content so your account says 'cleared'




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UltimaterializerX posted...

Unless were in direct competition it means literally nothing to me and I dont care because Im not an insecure bitch.

I have a disabled nephew who has to play games on the easiest settings to be able to beat them. He loves these games and they legitimately help him develop motor skills that he is severely lacking in. Do you think I give a shit whether or not randoms on the internet think kids like my nephew are beating games legit or not?

His twin sister (who came out of the womb normal) is actually trying to teach him how Switch rewind works, which is the cutest thing ever and clearly shows more humanity and more love than a lot of people in this topic are capable of.

I play Metal Gear Solid 2 on Euro Extreme while running a soup kitchen that feeds starving kids in Africa

I play Devil May Cry 3 SE on Dante Must Die Yellow Mode while teaching disabled children how to read and providing financial aid to their parents

It turns out you virtue signal on easy mode too-- this is how a pro plays.

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If you use a Game Genie to put Mew in your team in Pokemon Red, it's cheating.
If you had you cartage over to Nintendo and they modify your save file to put Mew in your team, it's legit.

Being official matters.
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Team Rocket Elite posted...

If you use a Game Genie to put Mew in your team in Pokemon Red, it's cheating.
If you had you cartage over to Nintendo and they modify your save file to put Mew in your team, it's legit.

Being official matters.

So I guess if Miyamoto shakes your hand and says that you have now officially beaten all Nintendo made games that somehow makes it real.

It'd be a cool story to tell at least.

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Lopen posted...

A new challenger has arrived

Paying someone to play the game for you vs level skipping vs savestates/rewinds which one you got

Well you earned that money.

If you say you paid someone to fix your house does that mean you didn't really fix it?

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Not exactly sure why "in the official release" became the line for cheating or not anyway.

You use Power Overwhelming on Starcraft for the PC, or you Gameshark the N64 port for invincibility, you cheated either way! One was in the official release but they're both doing the same thing.

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Lopen posted...

Not exactly sure why "in the official release" became the line for cheating or not anyway.

You use Power Overwhelming on Starcraft for the PC, or you Gameshark the N64 port for invincibility, you cheated either way! One was in the official release but they're both doing the same thing.

I guess the logic is "Beating a game through cheating" is still beating it cause "beating" is in the sentence. And I guess that includes paying somebody to do so for a game you might as well have never seen. That's where it's come to.

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is it cheating if you hold the zapper all the way up to the screen in Duck Hunt

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This is getting sad. For a group of people who say "Who cares?" you sure need a ton of validation from every single fringe case and example.

Use your own criteria. That's it. Just because a game is buggy or laggy doesnt make it impossible, just difficult (And probably not much fun, so why are you playing it?).

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wg64Z posted...

This is getting sad. For a group of people who say "Who cares?" you sure need a ton of validation from every single fringe case and example.

it's more pointing out that there's some inherent inconsistency in trying to strictly say "if you cheat at all you didn't beat the game"

I'm not asking you to "validate" me by asking any of these questions. I'm honestly curious.

and nobody has bothered to ever answer my original question

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Is it cheating if you point the zapper at a light bulb instead of the screen in Duck Hunt?
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wg64Z posted...

This is getting sad. For a group of people who say "Who cares?" you sure need a ton of validation from every single fringe case and example.

Use your own criteria. That's it. Just because a game is buggy or laggy doesnt make it impossible, just difficult (And probably not much fun, so why are you playing it?).

If you don't want discussion then why did you make this topic? For your own validation?

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MZero11 posted...

You literally just said using the whistle counts because they beat World 8 with pure skill. So if someone uses save states or rewind in World 3 or something and beats World 8 without them it should count too. Why is skipping World 3 entirely more legitimate than beating it with save states?

This is an extremely simple concept that you refuse to understand. One was beat without any external cheats, the other was not. That is all.

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Discussion is fine but it's just boiled down to "WELL IS THIS CHEATING THEN?!"

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wg64Z posted...

Discussion is fine but it's just boiled down to "WELL IS THIS CHEATING THEN?!"

yeah and?

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When you make a blanket statement like "If you cheated you didn't beat the game," what kind of discussion are you expecting, exactly?

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Its something you decide for yourself.

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Just going to say I more or less agree on that, Leonhart. Despite voting no, and generally arguing for the side of the features invalidating the legitimacy of the game clear, my actual stance on this is closest to Haste's earlier post.

Haste_2 posted...

If it's to save progress, yes. If it's to avoid certain tedious things you know you can handle, yes. Otherwise, no.

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StealThisSheen posted...

When you make a blanket statement like "If you cheated you didn't beat the game," what kind of discussion are you expecting, exactly?

People discussing their own opinions and criteria on the matter, and not trying to ask someone for constant examples in an attempt to poke holes in their logic. But I guess that is dumb of me to expect.

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wg64Z posted...

Its something you decide for yourself.

that didn't seem to be the original intent of this topic...!

but regardless I'm not asking because I can't make up my mind

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You mean the topic titled as a question asking for opinions as opposed to the original Tweet which declared a statement?

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If you discuss things that I don't want you to discuss, you DID NOT by any stretch of the imagination correctly post in this god damn topic

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Leonhart4 posted...

Also, when I was a kid, I was playing Michael Jordan's Chaos in the Windy City (yeah, yeah, I know), and I was messing around with the password system just for fun one time. By complete chance, I entered a password that put me at the next to last level. If I beat the game from there, does that count as "beating" the game?

seriously I want someone to answer this

(the password is all zeroes except for the last number which is a 9 in case anyone wants to confirm lawl)

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I say you didn't but your victory has more legitimacy than one who abused savestates (or used rewind at all-- I'm struggling to think of any scenarios where I think rewind is an acceptable tool to use)

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wg64Z posted...

This is getting sad. For a group of people who say "Who cares?" you sure need a ton of validation from every single fringe case and example.

Use your own criteria. That's it. Just because a game is buggy or laggy doesnt make it impossible, just difficult (And probably not much fun, so why are you playing it?).

Early Gameboy library, there weren't that many options. Years later, I wanted to see whether I could get past it. Watch the video, you need to nail that jump.

Castlevania: The Adventure isn't that hard and I feel attacked whenever someone says it's bad (yes I have multiple battle scars).

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