Current Events > University lowers entry score for female applicants in male-dominated courses

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https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/aug/29/university-makes-10-point-entry-score-adjustment-for-female-applicants

The University of Technology Sydney is trying to encourage more young women to study engineering, computing and construction degrees by adjusting year 12 entry scores for female applicants.
The university has received approval from the NSW Anti-Discrimination Board to make a 10-point adjustment to the Australian Tertiary Admission Rank of female students applying for those degrees for the 2020 academic year.
The university hopes it will help address gender imbalances in those male-dominated industries.
UTS Women in Engineering and IT director Arti Agarwal insisted the move would not lower standards.
Were not taking in underperforming students or doing tokenism here, she told Guardian Australia. Nobody is getting a free pass They all have to do all the degree requirements [and] internships.
Agarwal said the move was part of the universitys 30-year effort to improve gender equity in engineering, which includes primary school and high school outreach programs and mentoring for female engineers.
We looked at the performance of Atar and the performance of [grade point average] so a lower Atar did not mean they would get a lower GPA. A higher Atar did not mean they were best in the class, Agarwal said.
She noted a large number of engineering students gained entrance into the undergraduate degree through other pathways, which often were lower than the year 12 Atar minimum score.
Agarwal said previously that, on average, females received 4-8% of UTS offers to study mechanical engineering/mechatronics. The university expects the score adjustment will increase female study offers to about 20%.
In civil engineering on average 16% of offers are to female students and this could rise to 20%. In computer science 10% of offers are to female students and this could lift to 19%.
According to Engineers Australia, 84% of Australian engineering graduates are men. Female engineers make up 13% of the workforce. Australia faces a looming shortage of engineers.
A 2017 Engineers Australia report found part of the problem was low levels of female high school students were studying the prerequisite subjects. Less than 6% of girls nationally studied physics in year 12, with advanced maths at 6.2%.
Engineers Australias professional diversity manager Justine Romanis backed the UTS move.
We need to be disruptive what we have been doing to date is just not working, she said.
She said to attract more females to engineering it was important to plant the seeds early with research backing career discussion with children as young as year 4.
Virginia Singh, who studied a double degree in mechanical engineering and science at Deakin University and now works in the defence industry, does not think it is a good idea. There were two female students in her mechanical engineering course. Singhs father and brothers are also qualified engineers.
I dont necessarily think that its the score stopping females from joining engineering, theres more so a stigma associated with it or Stem in general, Singh told the Guardian. Theres a perception that you need a strong Stem and technical background and although you need that, most of the day-to-day work is soft skills as opposed to technical calculations every day.
The UTS announcement has attracted some criticism on social media.
In 2016, the Australian National University announced that it was broadening its admission processes for engineering degrees away from reliance on Atar scores towards broader selection criteria.
Atar is a number between 0.00 and 99.95 that indicates a students position relative to all the students in their age group.

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I predict an uptick in Australian engineers who identify as transgender.
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I predict lawsuits and more transgender applicants to game the system.

Gotta try something

Stem culture is toxic
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CarrieChan posted...

more transgender applicants to game the system.

Cause I'm sure there's so many already.


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This won't end well.
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"more women are entering and graduating college than men, and the gap is increasing, how can we fix this?"

"lower entry standards for women"
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CarrieChan posted...

I predict lawsuits and more transgender applicants to game the system.

Yeah because changing your legal gender is so easy
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On one hand, this seems unfair.

On the other, college is a bunch of bullshit that convinced society that it's required. So fuck it. Lower it for anyone you want. How good people are at their jobs has basically nothing to do with the college most likely.

Wild how right wingers think there's this huge cabal of people willing to hold themselves out as transgender and bring about all the difficulties that presents in order to make some minor theoretical gain

Affirmative action isn't new and also shouldn't be controversial anymore.
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mech dragon posted...

Affirmative action isn't new and also shouldn't be controversial anymore.

Its never going to stop be controversial because its unfair.
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tennisdude818 posted...

mech dragon posted...

Affirmative action isn't new and also shouldn't be controversial anymore.

Its never going to stop be controversial because its unfair.

Fairness of process (aka equality) vs fairness of outcome (aka equity). It's the latter, so it's still fair.
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Men on the right who are afraid of this meaning they will have less opportunity should probably just be less mediocre.
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The university has received approval from the NSW Anti-Discrimination Board to make a 10-point adjustment to the Australian Tertiary Admission Rank of female students applying for those degrees for the 2020 academic year.

You cannot solve discrimination by mandating it.

COVxy posted...

Men on the right who are afraid of this meaning they will have less opportunity should probably just be less mediocre.

Or more rich
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COVxy posted...

Men on the right who are afraid of this meaning they will have less opportunity should probably just be less mediocre.

Or mediocre men can change their gender so they can take advantage of the reduced standards.
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TheDreadedWave posted...

CarrieChan posted...

more transgender applicants to game the system.

Cause I'm sure there's so many already.

Right? It's just bias against trans people and a subtle jab at the authenticity of trans people's lives.
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mech dragon posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

mech dragon posted...

Affirmative action isn't new and also shouldn't be controversial anymore.

Its never going to stop be controversial because its unfair.

Fairness of process (aka equality) vs fairness of outcome (aka equity). It's the latter, so it's still fair.

Um... equity by definition is unfair. Unless you are normalizing off of effort or something like that which would be hard as fuck to measure and then probably be more aptly called equality anyway.
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Hairistotle posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

COVxy posted...

Men on the right who are afraid of this meaning they will have less opportunity should probably just be less mediocre.

Or mediocre men can change their gender so they can take advantage of the reduced standards.

just like all those bathroom molesters you constantly screamed about right?

Dunno.

Id like to know if you can take advantage of diversity quotas by just marking F on your application, or if you need to legally change something.
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tennisdude818 posted...

Dunno.

Id like to know if you can take advantage of diversity quotas by just marking F on your application, or if you need to legally change something.

Have you ever applied to university?
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This is how we achieve equality!!!

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"women are just as smart as men"
"let's lower the standards so they can get in"

It's baltant sexism towards women. But if this is the best these idiots can do to "encourage women" to engage in STEM while ignoring how toxic STEM is towards women, it's not gonna change much. Just means more women apply the drop out
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COVxy posted...

Men on the right who are afraid of this meaning they will have less opportunity should probably just be less mediocre.

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scar the 1 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Dunno.

Id like to know if you can take advantage of diversity quotas by just marking F on your application, or if you need to legally change something.

Have you ever applied to university?

I dont know if anyone tried to raise a stink over their gender matching their birth certificate while applying.
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tennisdude818 posted...

I dont know if anyone tried to raise a stink over their gender matching their birth certificate while applying.

That's not exactly an answer to the question
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scar the 1 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

I dont know if anyone tried to raise a stink over their gender matching their birth certificate while applying.

That's not exactly an answer to the question

Ok. I went to college. I still dont know what happens if you mark the gender that contradicts your birth certificate though.
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tennisdude818 posted...

I predict an uptick in Australian engineers who identify as transgender.

I predict this topic was made in bad faith.

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It's BS

Like, I don't care too much about some jobs, but I want a doctor that got into school because of their great grades, not because of feelings

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Bad_Mojo posted...

I want a doctor that got into school because of their great grades, not because of feelings

You're in luck then. This is the standard.

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Bad_Mojo posted...

It's BS

Like, I don't care too much about some jobs, but I want a doctor that got into school because of their great grades, not because of feelings

If you wanted professionals chosen based on merit, a system that uses HS credentials to bias the system is probably not what you want lmao.
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tennisdude818 posted...

Ok. I went to college. I still dont know what happens if you mark the gender that contradicts your birth certificate though.

So why would you assume that any institution who implements this would not make sure to have an application process that safeguards against it? Maybe it's different where you live, but I never filled in my gender anywhere when I applied. It came automatically with my social security number.
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aaaaand of course the far left posters are going to support this no matter what

Nice to see society continuing to spiral down towards mediocrity.
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This is not ok

RdVEHfJqAvUPIbk posted...

"women are just as smart as men"
"let's lower the standards so they can get in"

Agree, How is this not sexism?

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They still have to pass, so I don't give a fuck. What they really needed to do was lower the financial barrier. That'd piss off way more people, and there would no hint of a sacrifice in quality.
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COVxy posted...

Men on the right who are afraid of this meaning they will have less opportunity should probably just be less mediocre.

How can you argue men should be less mediocre when this is an attempt to put more mediocrity into the field?
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University lowers entry score for female applicants in male-dominated courses

Which is ironically sexist towards women by implying they're incapable of achieving equal scores on their own merit.

It's not just male critics considering this tactic ridiculous. Plenty of hardworking educated women feel this type of change infantilizes female students and spits on the women who managed to reach success before it was implemented.
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ClockworkHare posted...

Which is ironically sexist towards women by implying they're incapable of achieving equal scores on their own merit.

No...? It's implying that women with equal or higher scores aren't applying to male-dominated courses.
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Whatswrongwithu posted...

Gotta try something

Stem culture is toxic

Lol it really isn't.

The issue is the career life people want.
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Feminism is not the desire for equality but the desire for equality plus benefits

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scar the 1 posted...

ClockworkHare posted...

Which is ironically sexist towards women by implying they're incapable of achieving equal scores on their own merit.

No...?

Yes.

If the issue is sexism in STEM fields, that can be more effectively addressed without tampering with testing standards at all. There is simply no need for that and it's counter-productive implementing it because it suggests women are innately inferior applicants in need of assistance in order to keep up with male counterparts. That will embolden sexist attitudes toward them because of the implication that they had it OBJECTIVELY easier compared to peers who did not. That sets a poor precedent.

This unnecessary tactic doesn't really do anything to alleviate sexism present in STEM fields. You could argue that "lowering testing standards encourages more women to pursue STEM, which will naturally discourage sexism in the fields", but you can also do that by just applying better marketing to women in general...minus lowering the standard. Nothing says women can keep up with men better than actually proving it with equal standards.

If the primary issue is women refusing to enter or dropping out of STEM due to environmental sexism, lowering the standards for them won't stop the root problem. They will still continue to quit. Applying institutionalized sexism towards men (by giving women easier testing standards) won't help it either...it will make it worse.
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ClockworkHare posted...

There is simply no need for that and it's counter-productive implementing it because it suggests women are innately inferior applicants in need of assistance in order to keep up with male counterparts.

It does not suggest that. Like I said, it suggests that women with higher scores apply to other fields. That's all.
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scar the 1 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Ok. I went to college. I still dont know what happens if you mark the gender that contradicts your birth certificate though.

So why would you assume that any institution who implements this would not make sure to have an application process that safeguards against it? Maybe it's different where you live, but I never filled in my gender anywhere when I applied. It came automatically with my social security number.

Safeguard against what? They could be called transphobic if they question your selection. Especially if its hard to legally change your gender right now.

I dont remember my application process very well, but this is Australia anyway. Im also not sure how hard it is to legally change your sex there, but in such a liberal country you have to assume it will get easier. Combine that trend with ever increasing diversity quotas and some people will be savvy enough to beat regressives at their own sexist game. It wouldnt take much for that to snowball.
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All of this is totally real argumentation in good faith.
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Sad!

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