Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 234: Epsteins;Gate

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nrrr posted...

The first attempt was literally reported by different, credible sources to be possibly a real suicide attempt, a fake suicide attempt, and possibly as an attempted murder.

Who reported this? You keep making claims and then not a single source is cited.

"A significant number of prison suicides are murder" cool what's your evidence? You should be able to cite studies, show a significant number of wrongful death lawsuits won, anything. Basically your evidence is "because I say so" right now.
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Bernie Madoff? Fuck why am I wasting my time here

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Im just confused what this steadfast trust in the American prison is based on.

I wouldn't say that "the people responsible for watching him were probably really negligent" is a glowing review of the prison!

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Are you seriously asking me to cite like official statistics about how often cops cover up their murders by presenting it as suicide? Just fuck off dude lol

as for the idea of guards taking bribes:
former mobsters have mentioned this before. including one yesterday who was talking about this prison and how rich people could get steak or cell phones, including his former boss who was in there twice, in two separate max security blocks.

so there's legs to that idea.
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Nrrr posted...

Are you seriously asking me to cite like official statistics about how often cops cover up their murders by presenting it as suicide? Just fuck off dude lol

See this, children? This is how an insane person acts. Asserting that something is true and when they provide zero evidence, even anecdotally (literally Tony did more than you did and the best he could come up with is negligence), just lashing out.

In 2014 there was 444 prisoners who committed suicide in federal prison. Even just pulling up a handful of "questionable" cases would at least be something. But no, it's just "they're mostly just people being murdered" and we should just accept that because the great Cyclo says so.
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Like I didn't even ask for "official" statistics, I asked for ANYTHING. A single thing, even if it's from insane website that sounds like it was run by Alex Jones. And you provide nothing.
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I never said most are murder. If you require me to do research for you to back up my message board post that sometimes cops present murder as suicide then, uh, fuck you I guess.

Provide evidence to me that people want Bernie Madoff dead or you are an insane child

TheRock1525 posted...

(literally Tony did more than you did and the best he could come up with is negligence)

What a strange sentence.

Negligence is the best case scenario for one of the most well-connected men to ever be arrested in our modern history.

What a position to be so cocky about, considering as Cycle said, you literally have as much evidence as we do.
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You idiots, a guy connected to British and Saudi royalty, multiple presidents, and countless billionaires OBVIOUSLY committed suicide because the prison was blatantly negligent, and anyone wondering aloud about how suspicious that is must prove the improvable.
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Negligence isn't the best case scenario. The best case scenario is that they approached it literally how they approach any suicide watch. Did you not read what that psychologist actually said? It's literally the most believable route. He was taken off of suicide watch 10 days ago. They literally point out how most suicide watches literally make symptoms worse and that they deliberately don't put people on watches for incredibly long periods of time i.e. it's impossible to keep him on suicide watch for the rest of his life.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

You idiots, a guy connected to British and Saudi royalty, multiple presidents, and countless billionaires OBVIOUSLY committed suicide because the prison was blatantly negligent, and anyone wondering aloud about how suspicious that is must prove the improvable.

And clearly, if Epstein was alive and all prosecutors had was his word then all these people were most definitely going down with zero evidence.

I mean, Epstein had all these connections that would have supposedly protected him from serious prosecution and therefore it made no sense to kill himself, but of course all these OTHER billionaires must have zero power and influence and therefore were going down.

Epstein's power and influence = completely untouchable.
Other billionaire's power and influence = completely screwed.

Gotcha.
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"Guys, they nailed Epstein. He's gonna take us down but he's gonna use his own status and power to avoid any punishment for it!"
"Why don't we just use our own billions and influence?"
"Because reasons!"
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The trolling is so bad its hard to respond to.

Epstein had intimate knowledge of very powerful people that could potentially be leveraged for pleas.

Epstein didnt know how it would shake out, and neither did his friends.

Obviously its just a suspicion, but your surety is pretty fuckin weird considering the circumstances.

You keep mentioning the psychologist (without a link btw, although youve been asking us for sources like WERE on trial), but multiple major outlets have sources such as Wardens, prison psychologists, and lawyers saying it was wrong, unprofessional, and/or unprecedented:

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/08/10/prison-experts-shocking-that-jeffrey-epstein-was-taken-off-suicide-watch.html

Youre free to google that subject to find other sources, but I just saw them and I assure you theyre there.

Literally the Federal Prison guidelines require a face to face sit down to remove someone from suicide watch.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

You idiots, a guy connected to British and Saudi royalty, multiple presidents, and countless billionaires OBVIOUSLY committed suicide because the prison was blatantly negligent, and anyone wondering aloud about how suspicious that is must prove the improvable.

Dwelling on his connections is irrelevant. In the absence of evidence of how he died (which I don't think has been made public, at least not to any meaningful degree), there's no conclusion to arrive at. Who he is only matters if his death itself is suspicious in the way it happened.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

You keep mentioning the psychologist (without a link btw, although youve been asking us for sources like WERE on trial), but multiple major outlets have sources such as Wardens, prison psychologists, and lawyers saying it was wrong, unprofessional, and/or unprecedented:

He's referring to this thread I posted:
https://twitter.com/czedwards/status/1160297568837832704?s=21

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Leafeon13N posted...

Anecdotal evidence. The best kind of evidence.

Stop.

Nrrr posted...

There is absolutely zero evidence besides the word of the prison that he killed himself, which is fucking anecdotal evidence.

hey, according to corrik in the previous topic, anecdotal evidence is totally legit and if you use it, it just means "you base your arguments on reality rather than feels." good thing multiple people are using it now!
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Epstein didnt know how it would shake out, and neither did his friends.

not entirely true.
attorney general visited him recently, right before the first "suicide attempt."
the courts unsealed 2000 pages of stuff, despite various interests wanting to keep it quiet, and they had advanced warning of when it would happen.

Panthera posted...

Dwelling on his connections is irrelevant. In the absence of evidence of how he died (which I don't think has been made public, at least not to any meaningful degree), there's no conclusion to arrive at. Who he is only matters if his death itself is suspicious in the way it happened.

...his connections are part of what makes it suspicious. that's the very point being made, he's connected to all those people - as in, has a ton of dirt - and they want him dead.

LordoftheMorons posted...

He's referring to this thread I posted:

a person who is also not at all related to this prison, its conditions, or its treatment of inmates. people who are familiar with it, whether it's former inmates, guards, or officials in power, have all stated that it's a place where constant checks happen regardless of suicide watch. that one just becomes even more robust. the prison themselves have already acknowledged that they normally have 15 minute checks anyway but didn't do them that night.

in other words, nothing she's saying is going to be relevant here.
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Wanglicious posted...

...his connections are part of what makes it suspicious. that's the very point being made, he's connected to all those people - as in, has a ton of dirt - and they want him dead.

He could be connected to everyone on Earth and if there was concrete evidence he just killed himself, it wouldn't be suspicious in any way, is my point. It's only if there's something unusual about how he died that his connections start becoming relevant.
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Panthera posted...

Wanglicious posted...

...his connections are part of what makes it suspicious. that's the very point being made, he's connected to all those people - as in, has a ton of dirt - and they want him dead.

He could be connected to everyone on Earth and if there was concrete evidence he just killed himself, it wouldn't be suspicious in any way, is my point. It's only if there's something unusual about how he died that his connections start becoming relevant.

Him dying in this prison, in and of itself, is unusual.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

What a position to be so cocky about, considering as Cycle said, you literally have as much evidence as we do.

Yeah but in Rock's case, he's not really saying anything bizarre. His argument is "The simplest answer is probably the correct answer." If he were saying something crazier, then yeah, he'd need to be backing it up with evidence.

Now if you say something like "Most suicides are just cops covering up their murders," then yeah, you kinda need evidence.

EDIT: Obviously, there's no proof either way right now, so yeah, nobody can be certain. I just think in this case he's correct to dismiss Cyclo's ramblings if Cyclo's not gonna actually support it with anything
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

hey, according to corrik in the previous topic, anecdotal evidence is totally legit and if you use it, it just means "you base your arguments on reality rather than feels." good thing multiple people are using it now!

There's a big difference between "something happened one way once or twice so we should always temper our expectations to it" and "they gave an official statement of an event that just happened."

When people are talking anecdotal evidence in the context of a faulty argument, they mean the former.

The latter applies as anecdotal evidence in the legal sense if they went to trial saying that and literally provided no evidence at that time to back it up. Calling it out as the same way Corrik uses anecdotal evidence is flat out not true.

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Is there evidence that he was murdered? I mean if so, that changes everything. But until there's evidence he was murdered, I'd say it's more likely he killed himself.

Yes, prison guards and wardens are often very corrupt. But I wouldn't say they were hyper-competent to the point they could cover up something like this. Maybe if they killed someone who was arrested and nobody knew who they were. But there'll be a lot of scrutiny in the Epstein case.
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Yeah, most apparent suicides in prison don't get the US Attorney General announcing an investigation the next day. Or, ya know, ever.
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I mean why are people assuming you have to have complete faith in the prison system for it to have been an actual suicide? Literally all it would take is one of the MANY people involved with protecting him to say, at any point, "hey, maybe protecting this millionaire piece of shit pedophile from death by suicide isn't worth my time." That's not a conspiracy, that's just our prison system at work. I think a deliberate act of negligence is way more likely than conspiratorial orders being passed down from higher up.

Hopefully they get to the bottom of what happened but I kind of doubt they will.
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I mean it doesn't even have to be negligence for it to happen. He was off of suicide watch which means he only needs to be checked on every 30 min, more than enough time for him to pull off a suicide if he really wanted to.

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kevwaffles posted...

Yeah, most apparent suicides in prison don't get the US Attorney General announcing an investigation the next day. Or, ya know, ever.

Most people who kill themselves in prison aren't billionaires with the national media spotlight on them, either. Not to mention I'm pretty sure legally every prisoner death gets some level of investigation.
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Wanglicious posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

There's like a 1% chance he was murdered and a 99% chance he killed himself.

in a place where that should not be possible, has not been possible for over two decades, with people who were actually there saying "this is impossible."

yeah no.
if you're looking for a simple answer you're gonna get to either a) murder, or b) a lot of money and help from people inside to help him kill himself. at which point you then gotta look into the ones who did the assist.

the simplest answer is that his death was not something caused solely by his own hands.

what the fuck?
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hockeydude15 posted...

I mean it doesn't even have to be negligence for it to happen. He was off of suicide watch which means he only needs to be checked on every 30 min, more than enough time for him to pull off a suicide if he really wanted to.

Even this can be negligence! Maybe whoever signed off on taking him off watch truly does not give a shit if he dies.

I just can't buy that the prison system is both corrupt enough to allow a massive cover-up and also that they are legitimately trying their best to keep such a notable trash human from killing himself.
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Eh you can't keep a guy on suicide watch forever, it is really only meant to really stop someone from hurting themselves in the short term. Like not sure if everyone here realizes that when someone is on suicide watch it isn't just that they are always being watched by someone but that all they get is a tear resistant smock and a mattress, that's it. Usually they'll get interviewed and asked if they still want to hurt themselves and then get taken off and get consoling help for why they felt that way. Like that's why i've been saying if someone really wants to kill themselves in jail you are not going to stop them since having someone dedicated to watch them 24/7 for the rest of their life is not realistic.

Having a guard ignore him after seeing him hanging because he was a piece of shit and has already tried it once while possible, it would bring so much unwanted attention to yourself that doing it on purpose would be dumb. More likely the guard just fell asleep and didnt' realize until the morning that it happened since it was on the midnight shift.

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I only meant it as he wouldnt be Miley to kill him self because hes rich enough to get a sweet deal.

They should check the bank record of every employee and guard at that prison for suspicious activity. This is a clusterfuck. Someone needs to be fired.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

I only meant it as he wouldnt be Miley to kill him self because hes rich enough to get a sweet deal.

They should check the bank record of every employee and guard at that prison for suspicious activity. This is a clusterfuck. Someone needs to be fired.

Like they wouldn't have paid in straight cash.
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They were paid in the gold coins from John Wick

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Oh well yeah... just fire everyone on duty at the time. Incompetence or taking a bribe both this is just an epic fail. See who shows up to work driving a new car.

The DOJ outright said when the news broke that "heads will roll" so yes, people are getting fired here. They up front know it shouldn't be possible for him to commit suicide on his own, there's not enough time and not enough tools inside to do it. Which is consistent with everyone else's (see: former inmates, former and current prison guards, police, etc) account of the prison being talked about.

Incompetence for this prison would be incredibly weird too, this is the place they hold high risk and high level security threats. This would be the first time they'd be this "incompetent" in decades. Net result, everyone's looking at it from a corruption angle as it's a LOT more reasonable of an expectation.
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Posting to give my praise for this topic title
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(taking a big gulp of a water bottle from air force one) uhh let me be clear, the Flint water is uhh safe to drink. If you like your lead poisoning, you can keep it. The simplest explanation is always true. Accepting the official narrative without a shred of evidence is extremely smart.

It suddenly makes sense that Tony is an avid Joe Rogan fan.
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I literally dont believe in any conspiracy theories, so

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I literally dont believe in any conspiracy theories, so

When is this going to click.

Mr Lasastryke posted...

Leafeon13N posted...

Anecdotal evidence. The best kind of evidence.

Stop.

Nrrr posted...

There is absolutely zero evidence besides the word of the prison that he killed himself, which is fucking anecdotal evidence.

hey, according to corrik in the previous topic, anecdotal evidence is totally legit and if you use it, it just means "you base your arguments on reality rather than feels." good thing multiple people are using it now!

Actual life versus theoretical situations is important, yes.

I suggest you make use of your actual experiences.
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Leafeon13N posted...

When is this going to click.

I literally just said I think its possible and you guys are being ridiculous.

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Tony, you know the conspiracy they are accusing you of believing in is thinking that the Democratic establishment and corporate media wanted Hillary Clinton to defeat Bernie Sanders.

I don't like Joe Rogan because he gives a fairly uncritical platform to alt right people, but conspiracy theory beliefs or interests certainly don't make anyone stupid. A large amount of the beliefs are looking into actual (and much beloved) facts and evidence, and it's only the conclusion people draw that is a presumption without proof. Nobody says you are insane for thinking OJ did it, for example. The necessitation of hard proof to draw a conclusion is a standard that is very selectively applied. Are all the people who believe in God crazy?

Nrrr posted...

Nobody says you are insane for thinking OJ did it,

That one has actual evidence.

This conspiracy is all presumption.

Leafeon13N posted...

Nrrr posted...

Nobody says you are insane for thinking OJ did it,

That one has actual evidence.

This conspiracy is all presumption.

For the record, its being almost universally reported that the MCC fucked up.
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It was also reported at the previous suicide attempt that it was possibly a fake attempt, and that foul play was investigated (another inmate, a former cop who recently had a cell phone, was a person of interest). All of this is shit I posted links to when it happened, for any "post your proof" nerds I am not going to find weeks old news stories I already posted for you.

It's not really believing a conspiracy to have doubts/say it's certainly possible this wasn't a suicide

Not really sure where this big disconnect is?
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Wanglicious posted...

"pedophile who previously attempted suicide" is a really, really low key way of saying "billionaire with ties to people at the highest level of governments who ran a child sex trafficking ring and has people accusing him and many of those people of major crimes."

he supposedly tried to kill himself, he was promptly put on suicide watch, he was taken off it six days later and somehow dies 12 days after that. incompetence is possible but that definitely sounds like "murdered" is the more likely option.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I don't see a guy like that killing himself before even going to trial.

these are the two posts of people that seem totally on board conspiracy over "maybe". They heavily infer the conspiracy being the more likely option in their mind.

(wang is totally overboard, tony is just over 50% sure).
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And lets be clear here, the guy probably has the money and influence to buy off a guard and kill himself.

But people keep propogating this idea that he was murdered(By Hillary! according to half of twitter) when the more likely option is the guard just wasn't paying close enough attention and he hung himself. "Murder" seems basically entirely off the table.
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