Board 8 > The Noble Nine if viewed as a rotating club, enterable by beating a member

(+) Yeah! (+)

I recall people back in the Missingno. days saying things like "So is it just the Elite Eight now?" or "I guess we should start calling them the Terrific Ten" or "Does Missingno. replace Crono in the Noble Nine?" while misunderstanding what the Noble Nine is supposed to be a group of nine particular characters who racked up a long undefeated winning streak against every other character.

But what if Missingno. did replace Crono in the Noble Nine? I'm going to do something silly and explore that possibility by viewing the Noble Nine as a an always-changing council. The group will start with the original Nine (Link, Cloud, Sephiroth, Mario, Crono, Samus, Sonic, Mega Man, Snake) and rotate members according to the following rules:

- Any time a NN member is outplaced in a match by a non-NN member in any format (except Rivals), they will immediately lose their spot to the challenger
- If a non-NN member beats multiple NN members, only the lower-placing NN member loses a spot
- If multiple non-NN members beat a NN member, only the highest-placing challenger gets the NN spot

Here's the list of all Noble Nine breaks:

- Crono lost to Vincent in 2007
- Sonic lost to L-Block in 2007
- L-Block lost to Crono in 2008
- Mega Man lost to Weighted Companion Cube in 2008
- Sephiroth lost to Kirby in 2008
- Crono lost to Missingno. in 2010
- Vincent lost to Sephiroth in 2010
- Weighted Companion Cube lost to Luigi in 2010
- Kirby lost to Sonic in 2010
- Mario lost to Vivi in 2013
- Luigi lost to Big Boss in 2013
- Missingno. lost to Squall in 2013
- Big Boss lost to Kirby in 2013
- Link lost to Draven in 2013
- Cloud lost to Squirtle in 2013
- Sonic lost to Mewtwo in 2013
- Squirtle lost to Pikachu in 2013
- Squall lost to Pokemon Trainer Red in 2013
- Pokemon Trainer Red lost to Mega Man in 2013
- Draven lost to Amaterasu in 2018
- Mewtwo lost to Tifa Lockheart in 2018
- Vivi lost to Ganondorf in 2018
- Kirby lost to Bowser in 2018

Today's Noble Nine is:

Snake
Samus
Sephiroth > Vincent > Crono
Mega Man > Red > Squall > Missingno. > Crono > L-Block > Sonic
Bowser > Kirby > Big Boss > Luigi > Weighted Companion Cube > Mega Man
Tifa Lockheart > Mewtwo > Sonic > Kirby > Sephiroth
Pikachu > Squirtle > Cloud
Ganondorf > Vivi > Mario
Amaterasu > Draven > Link

Some notes:

- The winner of the Cloud/Alucard/Crono/Bowser fourpack will be a Noble Niner.
- Link will surely take Ganondorf's spot
- Luigi will try to take a spot from Tifa
- Amaterasu gets to keep her spot because she lost to Sephiroth, whereas Sephiroth will need to fight for it possibly losing a spot to Mario then failing to reclaim it from Tifa/Luigi.
- Pikachu gets to keep his spot unless he loses to Ganondorf
- Samus and Mega Man will keep their spots unless they go 0-2

So that was my completely pointless foray into a flawed Noble Nine system. Enjoy >_>
---

Man, I prefer that N9 way more to the one we have now (except Ganondorf).
---

I think Samus has the fewest losses to non-N9ers (only Draven in 2013).

Or at least last to lose to someone from outside the Noble Nine.
---

KamikazePotato posted...

Man, I prefer that N9 way more to the one we have now (except Ganondorf).

Better hope Ganon/Pika doesn't replicate Bowser/Kirby then.
---

I'd totally be down with this, just for honoring Amaterasu's deeds alone.
---

LinkMarioSamus posted...

I think Samus has the fewest losses to non-N9ers (only Draven in 2013).

Or at least last to lose to someone from outside the Noble Nine.

Mega Man only lost to WCC and Mario only lost to Vivi (both at the hands of dreadful LFF)
---

Noble Nine status isn't just a case of strength, though. It's mostly a case of veterancy and grandfathering.
---

Try it again without 4ways or 3ways
---

This is actually really neat.
---

I personally find it awesome Snake and Samus have not lost to a non-Noble Niner in this format.
---

Hahaha what
@ZenOfThunder archive
---

Logience posted...

Noble Nine status isn't just a case of strength, though. It's mostly a case of veterancy and grandfathering.

Not sure what you mean. This is just a hypothetical based on a misunderstanding of the Noble Nine.
---

I love this idea
---

Fun to think about!
---

Kirby making it into the 9 twice and losing his spot both times is tragic

Mega Man losing his spot and then getting back in Sonic's spot is hilarious
---

Logience posted...

Noble Nine status isn't just a case of strength, though. It's mostly a case of veterancy and grandfathering.

Yeah, the Noble Nine has been "obsolete" for almost as long as it's been "relevant".

See, the original designation of nine was probably kind of arbitrary. As of the end of the 2005 contest, they were essentially five and four--Link/Mario/Cloud/Sephiroth/Crono had never lost to Snake/Samus/Mega/Sonic. In fact, neither Snake nor Sonic had beaten any of the others! And by that logic, Ryu could've easily been a founding member of the Terrific Ten as well--prior to his 2005 loss to Bowser, he'd only ever lost to Noble Niners and looked good every time, and considering him another elite legitimized Snake and Sonic as both of them beat him. Then Sonic beat Crono in 2006, only to lose the next round to Snake. Finally, every member of the Noble Nine had at least one win and at least one loss to another member of the Noble Nine, and in such a way that any one of them losing would "break" the Noble Nine for all of them.

And it took all of one year for that to happen. But it was in a controversial new format, so they still had the perfect 1v1 record. Until Missingno. happened. People wanted to just keep adding qualifiers, but other people came up with the "solution" that they don't need a solution. The Noble Nine are still the Noble Nine and always will be, even if their perfect record against outsiders is gone.

But I like this thought exercise. I've been around long enough to know how things work here, but I don't go all the way back to the beginning and I've never figured out, "Why Nine?" As I stated above, after the 2006 Contest it was concrete; removing any one of them would mean someone had lost to an outsider. It was conclusively proven that the initial call to make #9 the cutoff was the right one. But you look at the 2002 X-Stats, the #9 character is a lot closer to #10 than to #8. Closer to #11 than to #8, actually, and #6 was barely closer to #5 than to #11 (though with how close 6-8 were, #7 is also closer to #5 than to #11, and in fact as close to #4 as to #11.) So why 9 instead of 8, or 10, or 11?

In fact, I feel like 11 is a good cutoff for my hypothetical alternate universe nobility, since the gap between #11 and #12 is where that magic number of 33.33% lies and thus, the line for who would be expected to not get doubled by #1 Link.

And by that measure, this would get pretty hilarious, because while #10 Ryu has never really disappointed, the #11 finisher in 2002 is...kind of a joke, albeit one who has been in every contest just like the others.
---

So let's use your model with my hypothetical "Elite Eleven". As I said before, this represents what would've been a legitimate decision in 2002, which remember, was when the Noble Nine were crowned.

Original:
Link
Sephiroth
Mega Man
Samus
Sonic
Mario
Crono
Cloud
Snake
Ryu
Tidus

2003: Ganondorf defeats Tidus
2003: Magus defeats Ganondorf
2005: Knuckles defeats Magus
2005: Bowser defeats Ryu
2005: Squall defeats Knuckles
2005: Vincent defeats Squall
2007: Ryu defeats Bowser
2007: Auron defeats Ryu
2007: Ryu defeats Auron
2007: L-Block defeats Sonic
2008: Pikachu defeats L-Block
2008: Cube defeats Mega Man
2008: Kirby defeats Sephiroth
2010: Missingno defeats Crono
2010: Sephiroth defeats Vincent
2010: Luigi defeats Cube
2010: Sonic defeats Kirby
2013: Draven defeats Ryu
2013: Big Boss defeats Luigi
2013: Vivi defeats Mario
2013: Squall defeats Missingno
2013: Mewtwo defeats Sonic
2013: Kirby defeats Big Boss
2013: Squirtle defeats Cloud
2013: Red defeats Squall
2013: Mega Man defeats Red
2018: Amaterasu defeats Draven
2018: Tifa defeats Mewtwo
2018: Ganondorf defeats Vivi
2018: Bowser defeats Kirby

The current Elite Eleven:

Link
Samus
Snake
Squirtle > Cloud
Ganondorf > Vivi > Mario
Pikachu > L-Block > Sonic
Tifa > Mewtwo > Sonic > Kirby > Sephiroth
Mega Man > Red > Squall > Missingno > Crono
Bowser > Kirby > Big Boss > Luigi > Cube > Mega Man
Amaterasu > Draven > Ryu > Auron > Ryu > Bowser > Ryu
Sephiroth > Vincent > Squall > Knuckles > Magus > Ganondorf > Tidus

Wow. A lot of hilarity here. First off, Ryu takes back his own spot twice. But the greater upshot is that by having Tidus of all people originate a slot, Vincent was already an Elite Eleven in 2007... which means that Crono doesn't lose his slot. Which means that Crono can't be the one to take L-Block's slot, which means that Pikachu takes that one. Which, in turn, means that Squirtle doesn't cough up the slot that he won from Cloud the very next round. (Interestingly, this creates the first situation in which an active Elite Eleven was absent from a contest entirely.)

On the bright side, since Ryu kept taking back his own spot, Draven took a spot one round earlier, so Link never lost his. Which means that Ganondorf and Pikachu should both keep theirs.
---

XIII_rocks posted...

I love this idea

---

you know, this is pretty interesting.

good job with the amount of work required to put all this together.
---

Thread of the year

BTW TC- this is limited to 1v1 right?

I think the Linear 9, as they should be dubbed, is preferable to the Linear 11 if for no other reason than it leans heavily on the N9 and it does not have a non-contestant (Squirtle) in its ranks

im also curious as to what happens if you dont include four ways
---

Ryu taking back his own spot twice is amazing.

Such a Ryu thing to. Don't take someone else's spot just keep avenging your losses to reclaim your title.

That's a solid group to.
---

OFool posted...

I think the Linear 9, as they should be dubbed, is preferable to the Linear 11 if for no other reason than it leans heavily on the N9 and it does not have a non-contestant (Squirtle) in its ranks

Maybe have Squirtle be forced to give back his spot when he missed a contest? So that spot goes back to Cloud or to the last person to beat Squirtle.
---

pjbasis posted...

Try it again without 4ways or 3ways

Actually that would cause a break somewhere because missingno isnt in this contest

Oh Squirtle already does this
---

This is an excellent topic. I'm happy we labeled the Noble Nine more or less the way we did, but it would have been fun if we had the foresight to assign a few championship belt-type considerations on these characters too.

Just to extend a little more on a point...

TsunamiXXVIII posted...

And it took all of one year for that to happen. But it was in a controversial new format, so they still had the perfect 1v1 record. Until Missingno. happened. People wanted to just keep adding qualifiers, but other people came up with the "solution" that they don't need a solution. The Noble Nine are still the Noble Nine and always will be, even if their perfect record against outsiders is gone.

...I would specify that those holdouts after Missingno > Crono were due to the twelve-hour qualifier being different from the original twenty-four hour match format.
---

I love this and that's because I've REALLY enjoyed watching Amaterasu's contest strength grow with every contest.

Just imagine if we could ever get a second okami game!*

*edit, you know what I mean.
---

Speaking of Crono...we never saw him lose in a twenty-four hour one-on-one match, but we have seen him be the first to break the Noble Nine in every other character-focused format.

One-on-one half-days: Missingno > Crono
Three-ways: Pikachu > Crono > Magus
Four-ways: Link > Vincent > Crono > Zero
Rivalries: (Solid Snake and) Liquid Snake > Crono (and Lavos)
---

Logience posted...

Noble Nine status isn't just a case of strength, though. It's mostly a case of veterancy and grandfathering.

So by definition its completely pointless then
---

Kind of like the Unofficial Football (soccer) World Championships.

I like it!

We should keep it going!
---

HaRRicH posted...

Rivalries: (Solid Snake and) Liquid Snake > Crono (and Lavos)

That one doesn't count. Cloud and Sephiroth were the only team in that contest comprised of two Noble Niners, so by definition as soon as any of the other seven ran into each other-- which inevitably two of them would since there weren't seven rounds--a non-Niner would be part of a team that beat a Niner. That's why I don't like counting Rivalry Rumble.

pjbasis posted...

pjbasis posted...

Try it again without 4ways or 3ways

Actually that would cause a break somewhere because missingno isnt in this contest

Oh Squirtle already does this

Well Squirtle was only in a 3way contest.

The only break in 1v1 was Missingno > Crono. It's that simple. (My idea was just riffing on the fact that while I wasn't there when it happened, the decision to set it at nine seems like a completely arbitrary one that just happened to work out.)

But I guess for my "Eleven"...

2003: Ganondorf defeats Tidus
2003: Magus defeats Ganondorf
2005: Knuckles defeats Magus
2005: Bowser defeats Ryu
2005: Squall defeats Knuckles
2005: Vincent defeats Squall
2010: Missingno defeats Crono
2010: Charizard defeats Bowser
2018: Bowser defeats Charizard
2018: Auron defeats Vincent

But yeah, I feel that the original 9 was the right call. Incidentally, the other side of what I mentioned was that it could've just as easily been only 8 instead of 9.

Original:
Link
Sephiroth
Mega Man
Samus
Sonic
Mario
Crono
Cloud

2006: Snake defeats Mega Man
2007: Vincent defeats Crono
2007: L-Block defeats Sonic
2008: Crono defeats L-Block
2008: Kirby defeats Sephiroth
2010: Missingno defeats Crono
2010: Sephiroth defeats Vincent
2010: Sonic defeats Kirby
2013: Vivi defeats Mario
2013: Squall defeats Missingno
2013: Draven defeats Link
2013: Mewtwo defeats Sonic
2013: Squirtle defeats Cloud
2013: Red defeats Squall
2013: Mega Man defeats Red
2013: Pikachu defeats Squirtle
2018: Amaterasu defeats Draven
2018: Tifa defeats Mewtwo
2018: Ganondorf defeats Vivi

Hm, not really as different from the one with the actual Noble Nine as I thought, since Snake, the one who wouldn't have been in the Elite Eight, got his first win over a fellow Noble Niner by beating Mega Man, whose slot in the actual Lineal Nine has yet to return to the Noble Nine since first being lost to Cube.
---

I decided to start with the eight division finalists in the first character battle, which seemed like a reasonable starting point, ignoring some rubbish seeding. I also restricted it to 1 v 1 matches only to determine who the current top 8 would be.

In 2002 the division finalists were:

Mario
Cloud
Crono
Snake
Scorpion
Link
Samus
Sephiroth

Changes to this are as follows:

2003: Zero > Scorpion
2003: Sonic > Zero
2003: Mega Man > Snake
2006: Snake > Mega Man
2010: Missingno > Crono

That seems pretty stable overall. Six of the original eight are the same with Sonic and Missingno replacing Scorpion and Crono.

Probably no surprises there really, as that happens when you restrict it to 1 v 1.
---

Yeah. And not restricting it to 1v1 turns it into what I posted above, since regardless of whether you use the actual Top 8 or the X-Stats Top 8 from 2002 to start, it turns out to be the same once Mega beats Snake in 2004.
---

What this topic showed me is that kirby is just really strong
---

ScareChan posted...

What this topic showed me is that kirby is just really strong

We already knew that.
---

UltimaterializerX posted...

TsunamiXXVIII posted...

ScareChan posted...

What this topic showed me is that kirby is just really strong

We already knew that.

And he was upset yesterday!!

Hardly. We already knew Bowser was really strong, too!
---

we should make this a real thing
---

I support this for Ammy alone
---

Well, this generated more discussion than I thought it would. Thanks to @TsunamiXXVIII for all the work he put into this thread.

Also shoutouts to Tidus for losing his Elite Eleven spot in 2003 and never making it in again
---

TsunamiXXVIII posted...

But I like this thought exercise. I've been around long enough to know how things work here, but I don't go all the way back to the beginning and I've never figured out, "Why Nine?"

because the term was coined before the second contest and before x-stats were a thing. it was just the division finalists minus Scorpion (who obviously didn't fit) and with Mega Man and Sonic added, because that whole fourpack with Samus and Sephiroth was so close. it's also important to note that there was initially no stipulation of them never losing to anyone but each other. that was an observation that came later.
---

well point I was making is Kirby seems to be like he may be like on the edge for 10th

but Zelda stomping everyone she may have it

she may be just second to link period
---

Top
---

I always knew Ammy was one of the elites here on DogFAQs
---

Lineal 9 spot up for grabs today with Luigi vs Tifa

OFool posted...

Lineal 9 spot up for grabs today with Luigi vs Tifa

Looks like it's not going anywhere

So FFVII keeps both of its NN spots for the time being. I don't see the use in keeping this bumped for the rest of the contest so I guess I'll post an update topic once the contest's final Lineal 9 is decided.
---