Current Events > Male uber drivers make more than female drivers with gender blind algorithm

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s0nicfan 02/12/18 3:27:05 PM #51:	Anteaterking posted... s0nicfan posted... Ehh... that's fair. Although I think you're under-emphasizing the importance of "sabotage" in classification, since ANY classification algorithm that uses DL or NN would be susceptible to abuse. I was speaking more from experience where its getting harder to sell customers on ML as a solution because of stories like those, and if the money dries up so does the research in that area. I just don't think your concern about "feminism in ML" is well founded. We have laws against certain types of discrimination in this country, so it makes sense that we don't give companies carte blanche to say "I'm not being discriminatory, the blind algorithm is!" for making decisions that we wouldn't let a human make. I don't think it really applies to the detriment of Uber here. I'm just saying, if your takeaway from this is "See, I guess there isn't structural bias in our society" but if the reason women are working less is because of societal pressures to be the person who "gives up their career" to take care of children or if they are leaving the service because of sexual harassment by customers, that doesn't erase bias, it just means it isn't at the feet of a sexist boss. The blind algorithm isn't being discriminatory. Full stop. Everything beyond that is irrelevant to the discussion. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:895952546] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>Anteaterking posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Ehh... that's fair. Although I think you're under-emphasizing the importance of "sabotage" in classification, since ANY classification algorithm that uses DL or NN would be susceptible to abuse. I was speaking more from experience where its getting harder to sell customers on ML as a solution because of stories like those, and if the money dries up so does the research in that area.</quote> I just don't think your concern about "feminism in ML" is well founded. We have laws against certain types of discrimination in this country, so it makes sense that we don't give companies carte blanche to say "I'm not being discriminatory, the blind algorithm is!" for making decisions that we wouldn't let a human make. I don't think it really applies to the detriment of Uber here. I'm just saying, if your takeaway from this is "See, I guess there isn't structural bias in our society" but if the reason women are working less is because of societal pressures to be the person who "gives up their career" to take care of children or if they are leaving the service because of sexual harassment by customers, that doesn't erase bias, it just means it isn't at the feet of a sexist boss.</quote> The blind algorithm isn't being discriminatory. Full stop. Everything beyond that is irrelevant to the discussion.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Anteaterking 02/12/18 3:30:10 PM #52:	s0nicfan posted... The blind algorithm isn't being discriminatory. Full stop. Everything beyond that is irrelevant to the discussion. I didn't say it was being discriminatory. You jumped on my earlier tangent about non-blind data leading to non-blind results even if being fed through a blind algorithm. --- http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Anteaterking/scan00021.jpg http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Anteaterking/scan00021.jpg <cite>Anteaterking posted [p:895952737] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>The blind algorithm isn't being discriminatory. Full stop. Everything beyond that is irrelevant to the discussion.</quote> I didn't say it was being discriminatory. You jumped on my earlier tangent about non-blind data leading to non-blind results even if being fed through a blind algorithm.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 02/12/18 3:33:40 PM #53:	Anteaterking posted... s0nicfan posted... The blind algorithm isn't being discriminatory. Full stop. Everything beyond that is irrelevant to the discussion. I didn't say it was being discriminatory. You jumped on my earlier tangent about non-blind data leading to non-blind results even if being fed through a blind algorithm. Same difference. There's no evidence the data is biased either. The moment we start playing politics with our datasets we've screwed ourselves over. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:895952961] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>Anteaterking posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>The blind algorithm isn't being discriminatory. Full stop. Everything beyond that is irrelevant to the discussion.</quote> I didn't say it was being discriminatory. You jumped on my earlier tangent about non-blind data leading to non-blind results even if being fed through a blind algorithm.</quote> Same difference. There's no evidence the data is biased either. The moment we start playing politics with our datasets we've screwed ourselves over.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
GreatEvilEmpire 02/12/18 3:40:04 PM #54:	The way they spin it is laughable: "Women getting paid less for doing a better job". In what world is getting lost and taking longer routes doing a better job? The whole point of the job is getting the passenger from point A to point B quickly and safely. And that's what is being done. --- Sig under construction! <cite>GreatEvilEmpire posted [p:895953316] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote>The way they spin it is laughable: "Women getting paid less for doing a better job". In what world is getting lost and taking longer routes doing a better job? The whole point of the job is getting the passenger from point A to point B quickly and safely. And that's what is being done.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
CruelBuffalo 02/12/18 4:06:24 PM #55:	Anteaterking posted... s0nicfan posted... The blind algorithm isn't being discriminatory. Full stop. Everything beyond that is irrelevant to the discussion. I didn't say it was being discriminatory. You jumped on my earlier tangent about non-blind data leading to non-blind results even if being fed through a blind algorithm. Moreover its not irrelevant to the discussion. If it is in fact because more women take on more home responsibilities then society needs to acknowledge that. <cite>CruelBuffalo posted [p:895954864] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>Anteaterking posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>The blind algorithm isn't being discriminatory. Full stop. Everything beyond that is irrelevant to the discussion.</quote> I didn't say it was being discriminatory. You jumped on my earlier tangent about non-blind data leading to non-blind results even if being fed through a blind algorithm.</quote> Moreover its not irrelevant to the discussion. If it is in fact because more women take on more home responsibilities then society needs to acknowledge that.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 02/12/18 4:10:34 PM #56:	CruelBuffalo posted... Anteaterking posted... s0nicfan posted... The blind algorithm isn't being discriminatory. Full stop. Everything beyond that is irrelevant to the discussion. I didn't say it was being discriminatory. You jumped on my earlier tangent about non-blind data leading to non-blind results even if being fed through a blind algorithm. Moreover its not irrelevant to the discussion. If it is in fact because more women take on more home responsibilities then society needs to acknowledge that. Yes, it's irrelevant to the discussion. If an algorithm is using all available data to blindly produce results, what the rest of society thinks about who does the laundry is irrelevant to the results. We should NOT be biasing the results of algorithms to privilege specific groups to "make up" for perceived inequalities in other areas of life. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:895955132] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>CruelBuffalo posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Anteaterking posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>The blind algorithm isn't being discriminatory. Full stop. Everything beyond that is irrelevant to the discussion.</quote> I didn't say it was being discriminatory. You jumped on my earlier tangent about non-blind data leading to non-blind results even if being fed through a blind algorithm.</quote> Moreover its not irrelevant to the discussion. If it is in fact because more women take on more home responsibilities then society needs to acknowledge that.</quote> Yes, it's irrelevant to the discussion. If an algorithm is using all available data to blindly produce results, what the rest of society thinks about who does the laundry is irrelevant to the results. We should NOT be biasing the results of algorithms to privilege specific groups to "make up" for perceived inequalities in other areas of life.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Anteaterking 02/12/18 4:14:44 PM #57:	s0nicfan posted... Same difference. There's no evidence the data is biased either. The moment we start playing politics with our datasets we've screwed ourselves over. All data is inherently biased. We don't have the luxury of working with data points in infinite dimensional space. Choices of different variables can lead to dramatically different models even with regards to the variables they have in common. And that's when we have objective qualitative data. It feels like you are trying to argue that Uber shouldn't pay women more per job to balance out this effect, but I don't think anyone in this topic is saying they should. But it would be improper to try to use this data set to say "Men are just better at earning money than women". --- http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Anteaterking/scan00021.jpg http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Anteaterking/scan00021.jpg <cite>Anteaterking posted [p:895955428] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Same difference. There's no evidence the data is biased either. The moment we start playing politics with our datasets we've screwed ourselves over.</quote> All data is inherently biased. We don't have the luxury of working with data points in infinite dimensional space. Choices of different variables can lead to dramatically different models even with regards to the variables they have in common. And that's when we have objective qualitative data. It feels like you are trying to argue that Uber shouldn't pay women more per job to balance out this effect, but I don't think anyone in this topic is saying they should. But it would be improper to try to use this data set to say "Men are just better at earning money than women".</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Cocytus 02/12/18 4:14:47 PM #58:	People expect than men drive better than women, especially small women. I don't know if that's accurate, but it's what a lot of people believe almost instinctively. <cite>Cocytus posted [p:895955431] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote>People expect than men drive better than women, especially small women. I don't know if that's accurate, but it's what a lot of people believe almost instinctively.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 02/12/18 4:15:26 PM #59:	Anteaterking posted... But it would be improper to try to use this data set to say "Men are just better at earning money than women". What is the alternative? --- He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:895955469] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>Anteaterking posted...</cite> <quote>But it would be improper to try to use this data set to say "Men are just better at earning money than women".</quote> What is the alternative?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 02/12/18 4:16:31 PM #60:	Anteaterking posted... s0nicfan posted... Same difference. There's no evidence the data is biased either. The moment we start playing politics with our datasets we've screwed ourselves over. All data is inherently biased. We don't have the luxury of working with data points in infinite dimensional space. Choices of different variables can lead to dramatically different models even with regards to the variables they have in common. And that's when we have objective qualitative data. It feels like you are trying to argue that Uber shouldn't pay women more per job to balance out this effect, but I don't think anyone in this topic is saying they should. But it would be improper to try to use this data set to say "Men are just better at earning money than women". You're not. Buffalo is, in a roundabout way. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:895955546] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>Anteaterking posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Same difference. There's no evidence the data is biased either. The moment we start playing politics with our datasets we've screwed ourselves over.</quote> All data is inherently biased. We don't have the luxury of working with data points in infinite dimensional space. Choices of different variables can lead to dramatically different models even with regards to the variables they have in common. And that's when we have objective qualitative data. It feels like you are trying to argue that Uber shouldn't pay women more per job to balance out this effect, but I don't think anyone in this topic is saying they should. But it would be improper to try to use this data set to say "Men are just better at earning money than women".</quote> You're not. Buffalo is, in a roundabout way.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
CruelBuffalo 02/12/18 4:25:00 PM #61:	s0nicfan posted... Anteaterking posted... s0nicfan posted... Same difference. There's no evidence the data is biased either. The moment we start playing politics with our datasets we've screwed ourselves over. All data is inherently biased. We don't have the luxury of working with data points in infinite dimensional space. Choices of different variables can lead to dramatically different models even with regards to the variables they have in common. And that's when we have objective qualitative data. It feels like you are trying to argue that Uber shouldn't pay women more per job to balance out this effect, but I don't think anyone in this topic is saying they should. But it would be improper to try to use this data set to say "Men are just better at earning money than women". You're not. Buffalo is, in a roundabout way. No, I am not nor did I hint at it. All I said is that IF its true society needs to acnowledge that women are taking on more responsibilities than men at home. Then its up to people if they want to divy up tasks at home or keep things the same <cite>CruelBuffalo posted [p:895956060] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Anteaterking posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Same difference. There's no evidence the data is biased either. The moment we start playing politics with our datasets we've screwed ourselves over.</quote> All data is inherently biased. We don't have the luxury of working with data points in infinite dimensional space. Choices of different variables can lead to dramatically different models even with regards to the variables they have in common. And that's when we have objective qualitative data. It feels like you are trying to argue that Uber shouldn't pay women more per job to balance out this effect, but I don't think anyone in this topic is saying they should. But it would be improper to try to use this data set to say "Men are just better at earning money than women".</quote> You're not. Buffalo is, in a roundabout way.</quote> No, I am not nor did I hint at it. All I said is that IF its true society needs to acnowledge that women are taking on more responsibilities than men at home. Then its up to people if they want to divy up tasks at home or keep things the same</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 02/12/18 4:29:58 PM #62:	CruelBuffalo posted... s0nicfan posted... Anteaterking posted... s0nicfan posted... Same difference. There's no evidence the data is biased either. The moment we start playing politics with our datasets we've screwed ourselves over. All data is inherently biased. We don't have the luxury of working with data points in infinite dimensional space. Choices of different variables can lead to dramatically different models even with regards to the variables they have in common. And that's when we have objective qualitative data. It feels like you are trying to argue that Uber shouldn't pay women more per job to balance out this effect, but I don't think anyone in this topic is saying they should. But it would be improper to try to use this data set to say "Men are just better at earning money than women". You're not. Buffalo is, in a roundabout way. No, I am not nor did I hint at it. All I said is that IF its true society needs to acnowledge that women are taking on more responsibilities than men at home. Then its up to people if they want to divy up tasks at home or keep things the same And if it isn't true, which the data currently supports as a conclusion, then its up to people to stop trying to make it an issue. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:895956363] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>CruelBuffalo posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Anteaterking posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Same difference. There's no evidence the data is biased either. The moment we start playing politics with our datasets we've screwed ourselves over.</quote> All data is inherently biased. We don't have the luxury of working with data points in infinite dimensional space. Choices of different variables can lead to dramatically different models even with regards to the variables they have in common. And that's when we have objective qualitative data. It feels like you are trying to argue that Uber shouldn't pay women more per job to balance out this effect, but I don't think anyone in this topic is saying they should. But it would be improper to try to use this data set to say "Men are just better at earning money than women".</quote> You're not. Buffalo is, in a roundabout way.</quote> No, I am not nor did I hint at it. All I said is that IF its true society needs to acnowledge that women are taking on more responsibilities than men at home. Then its up to people if they want to divy up tasks at home or keep things the same</quote> And if it isn't true, which the data currently supports as a conclusion, then its up to people to stop trying to make it an issue.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Anteaterking 02/12/18 4:43:14 PM #63:	Balrog0 posted... What is the alternative? You can conclude that there may be factors beyond employer discrimination and worker skill that impact the difference in wages. --- http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Anteaterking/scan00021.jpg http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Anteaterking/scan00021.jpg <cite>Anteaterking posted [p:895957147] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>What is the alternative?</quote> You can conclude that there may be factors beyond employer discrimination and worker skill that impact the difference in wages.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
The Admiral 02/12/18 4:48:08 PM #64:	I don't see any problem here. --- - The Admiral <cite>The Admiral posted [p:895957408] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote>I don't see any problem here.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1 02/12/18 5:35:27 PM #65:	Darkman124 posted... scar the 1 posted... So even when it looks equal on a surface level, because the algorithm doesn't discriminate by gender, these structures result in an unequal distribution. This is the part that one side cries itself hoarse over, and the other handwaves away as "personal choices". OTOH, the algorithm's purpose isn't to account for structural gender problems, it's to reward the drivers who earn Uber the most profit, thereby encouraging more behavior by them that earns them the most profit the structural biases working against women--their driving habits resulting in less fares/hour and their domestic responsibilities resulting in less of the most needed hours--means they earn uber less money. it wouldn't make sense for uber to pay employees who earn them less the same as employees who earn them more. they'd lose their highest-earning employees to a competitor who did not try to correct for these biases. quits are at all-time highs right now, so this is a real concern. Oh, I completely agree. I wouldn't expect from the algorithm - or Uber - to compensate for such fundamental societal structures. I just think it does a very good job at showing something that many talk about. The cost of the unpaid labor that is often expected of women is very clear here. --- Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two. <cite>scar the 1 posted [p:895960131] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>Darkman124 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote> So even when it looks equal on a surface level, because the algorithm doesn't discriminate by gender, these structures result in an unequal distribution. This is the part that one side cries itself hoarse over, and the other handwaves away as "personal choices". </quote> OTOH, the algorithm's purpose isn't to account for structural gender problems, it's to reward the drivers who earn Uber the most profit, thereby encouraging more behavior by them that earns them the most profit the structural biases working against women--their driving habits resulting in less fares/hour and their domestic responsibilities resulting in less of the most needed hours--means they earn uber less money. it wouldn't make sense for uber to pay employees who earn them less the same as employees who earn them more. they'd lose their highest-earning employees to a competitor who did not try to correct for these biases. quits are at all-time highs right now, so this is a real concern.</quote> Oh, I completely agree. I wouldn't expect from the algorithm - or Uber - to compensate for such fundamental societal structures. I just think it does a very good job at showing something that many talk about. The cost of the unpaid labor that is often expected of women is very clear here.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ManBeast462 02/12/18 5:36:40 PM #66:	Meanwhile female passengers steal male drivers tip money. --- http://m.imgur.com/EKKJrY6 <cite>ManBeast462 posted [p:895960201] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote>Meanwhile female passengers steal male drivers tip money.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
NonDairyMiltank 02/13/18 5:37:44 AM #67:	scar the 1 posted... Darkman124 posted... scar the 1 posted... So even when it looks equal on a surface level, because the algorithm doesn't discriminate by gender, these structures result in an unequal distribution. This is the part that one side cries itself hoarse over, and the other handwaves away as "personal choices". OTOH, the algorithm's purpose isn't to account for structural gender problems, it's to reward the drivers who earn Uber the most profit, thereby encouraging more behavior by them that earns them the most profit the structural biases working against women--their driving habits resulting in less fares/hour and their domestic responsibilities resulting in less of the most needed hours--means they earn uber less money. it wouldn't make sense for uber to pay employees who earn them less the same as employees who earn them more. they'd lose their highest-earning employees to a competitor who did not try to correct for these biases. quits are at all-time highs right now, so this is a real concern. Oh, I completely agree. I wouldn't expect from the algorithm - or Uber - to compensate for such fundamental societal structures. I just think it does a very good job at showing something that many talk about. The cost of the unpaid labor that is often expected of women is very clear here. if there's "unpaid labor" costs that are creating disadvantages for working women in jobs where pay is offered at equal rates regardless of gender, maybe they need to make different personal choices if they want to avoid dealing with those costs as an employee of that job it's not the responsibility of society as a whole to rescue women from the choices they're actively making in a country where they have or nearly have the same rights as men, which is usually where Uber services are available --- le Moo <cite>NonDairyMiltank posted [p:895990981] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Darkman124 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote> So even when it looks equal on a surface level, because the algorithm doesn't discriminate by gender, these structures result in an unequal distribution. This is the part that one side cries itself hoarse over, and the other handwaves away as "personal choices". </quote> OTOH, the algorithm's purpose isn't to account for structural gender problems, it's to reward the drivers who earn Uber the most profit, thereby encouraging more behavior by them that earns them the most profit the structural biases working against women--their driving habits resulting in less fares/hour and their domestic responsibilities resulting in less of the most needed hours--means they earn uber less money. it wouldn't make sense for uber to pay employees who earn them less the same as employees who earn them more. they'd lose their highest-earning employees to a competitor who did not try to correct for these biases. quits are at all-time highs right now, so this is a real concern.</quote> Oh, I completely agree. I wouldn't expect from the algorithm - or Uber - to compensate for such fundamental societal structures. I just think it does a very good job at showing something that many talk about. The cost of the unpaid labor that is often expected of women is very clear here.</quote> if there's "unpaid labor" costs that are creating disadvantages for working women in jobs where pay is offered at equal rates regardless of gender, maybe they need to make different personal choices if they want to avoid dealing with those costs as an employee of that job it's not the responsibility of society as a whole to rescue women from the choices they're actively making in a country where they have or nearly have the same rights as men, which is usually where Uber services are available</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1 02/13/18 10:08:47 AM #68:	NonDairyMiltank posted... if there's "unpaid labor" costs that are creating disadvantages for working women in jobs where pay is offered at equal rates regardless of gender, maybe they need to make different personal choices if they want to avoid dealing with those costs as an employee of that job Tell me this - are you in any way even curious why there's a difference in which "personal choices" man and women make, respectively? --- Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two. <cite>scar the 1 posted [p:895998522] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>NonDairyMiltank posted...</cite> <quote>if there's "unpaid labor" costs that are creating disadvantages for working women in jobs where pay is offered at equal rates regardless of gender, maybe they need to make different personal choices if they want to avoid dealing with those costs as an employee of that job</quote> Tell me this - are you in any way even curious why there's a difference in which "personal choices" man and women make, respectively?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DifferentialEquation 02/13/18 10:21:50 AM #69:	scar the 1 posted... NonDairyMiltank posted... if there's "unpaid labor" costs that are creating disadvantages for working women in jobs where pay is offered at equal rates regardless of gender, maybe they need to make different personal choices if they want to avoid dealing with those costs as an employee of that job Tell me this - are you in any way even curious why there's a difference in which "personal choices" man and women make, respectively? I'm not that interested, because people who want to explore "personal choices" in this context (of women earning less) already have reached the conclusion that it must be sexism, they just have to keep digging a little deeper to find it. "No evidence of the company engaging in pay discrimination? Hmm.. then it must have been the sexist teachers/colleges pushing them into making these decisions. No evidence of that either? Hmmm.. well it's gotta be sexist somehow. I know I'll find it somewhere if I keep digging!" --- There's no business to be taxed. <cite>DifferentialEquation posted [p:895999092] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>NonDairyMiltank posted...</cite> <quote>if there's "unpaid labor" costs that are creating disadvantages for working women in jobs where pay is offered at equal rates regardless of gender, maybe they need to make different personal choices if they want to avoid dealing with those costs as an employee of that job</quote> Tell me this - are you in any way even curious why there's a difference in which "personal choices" man and women make, respectively?</quote> I'm not that interested, because people who want to explore "personal choices" in this context (of women earning less) already have reached the conclusion that it must be sexism, they just have to keep digging a little deeper to find it. "No evidence of the company engaging in pay discrimination? Hmm.. then it must have been the sexist teachers/colleges pushing them into making these decisions. No evidence of that either? Hmmm.. well it's gotta be sexist somehow. I know I'll find it somewhere if I keep digging!"</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1 02/13/18 10:55:51 AM #70:	DifferentialEquation posted... I'm not that interested, Is NonDairyMiltank your alt? I swear I'm getting more paranoid by the day here --- Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two. <cite>scar the 1 posted [p:896000746] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>DifferentialEquation posted...</cite> <quote>I'm not that interested,</quote> Is NonDairyMiltank your alt? I swear I'm getting more paranoid by the day here</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 02/13/18 11:33:47 AM #71:	scar the 1 posted... NonDairyMiltank posted... if there's "unpaid labor" costs that are creating disadvantages for working women in jobs where pay is offered at equal rates regardless of gender, maybe they need to make different personal choices if they want to avoid dealing with those costs as an employee of that job Tell me this - are you in any way even curious why there's a difference in which "personal choices" man and women make, respectively? No, because when Sweden attempted to completely eliminate gender from children's programs, they found that boys and girls still fell along traditional lines when it came to interests. There's no secret sexist patriarchal conspiracy, men and women just have different priorities. Why is that so goddamn hard to understand? Why does it have to be some massive International conspiracy that makes you look like an insane person? --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:896002691] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>NonDairyMiltank posted...</cite> <quote>if there's "unpaid labor" costs that are creating disadvantages for working women in jobs where pay is offered at equal rates regardless of gender, maybe they need to make different personal choices if they want to avoid dealing with those costs as an employee of that job</quote> Tell me this - are you in any way even curious why there's a difference in which "personal choices" man and women make, respectively?</quote> No, because when Sweden attempted to completely eliminate gender from children's programs, they found that boys and girls still fell along traditional lines when it came to interests. There's no secret sexist patriarchal conspiracy, men and women just have different priorities. Why is that so goddamn hard to understand? Why does it have to be some massive International conspiracy that makes you look like an insane person?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
CruelBuffalo 02/13/18 11:39:14 AM #72:	There's no secret sexist patriarchal conspiracy, Can you honestly just fucking grow up? No one is saying that or implying that. Can you stop painting everyone who is curious about the why as having some nefarious agenda to shit on men and praise the abused woman. Its tiring and childish. None of us have said things have to change or that people need to adjust their habits at home. Its looking at the WHY do women not want to take those shifts. Is it to take care of family because the man isnt doing as much? If so, I would consider it decent to at the very least appreciate someone doing things for their family <cite>CruelBuffalo posted [p:896002974] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><quote>There's no secret sexist patriarchal conspiracy, </quote> Can you honestly just fucking grow up? No one is saying that or implying that. Can you stop painting everyone who is curious about the why as having some nefarious agenda to shit on men and praise the abused woman. Its tiring and childish. None of us have said things have to change or that people need to adjust their habits at home. Its looking at the WHY do women not want to take those shifts. Is it to take care of family because the man isnt doing as much? If so, I would consider it decent to at the very least appreciate someone doing things for their family</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DifferentialEquation 02/13/18 11:40:07 AM #73:	scar the 1 posted... DifferentialEquation posted... I'm not that interested, Is NonDairyMiltank your alt? I swear I'm getting more paranoid by the day here No. I don't have any alts. --- There's no business to be taxed. <cite>DifferentialEquation posted [p:896003030] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>DifferentialEquation posted...</cite> <quote>I'm not that interested,</quote> Is NonDairyMiltank your alt? I swear I'm getting more paranoid by the day here</quote> No. I don't have any alts.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
#74	Post #74 was unavailable or deleted.
s0nicfan 02/13/18 11:55:16 AM #75:	CruelBuffalo posted... There's no secret sexist patriarchal conspiracy, Can you honestly just fucking grow up? No one is saying that or implying that. Can you stop painting everyone who is curious about the why as having some nefarious agenda to shit on men and praise the abused woman. Its tiring and childish. None of us have said things have to change or that people need to adjust their habits at home. Its looking at the WHY do women not want to take those shifts. Is it to take care of family because the man isnt doing as much? If so, I would consider it decent to at the very least appreciate someone doing things for their family Cut the crap. The nebulous "but WHY I wonder" questions are never genuine. They're vague as to imply something more, when there's nothing more there. Even in your reply here, you had to tag on "well maybe it's because men aren't doing enough at home." Are you even willing to entertain the notion that the "why" is simply "because they want to" and that society is, in fact, pretty much evenly balanced based on those preferences? That rational adults distribute work between each other in a fair way? Because if not, then you're no better than the label I'm providing because you presuppose a problem and go looking for evidence. And oh by the way, if you've EVER used some "Trump cultist" derivative to describe anyone defending him in a topic, then you can fuck right off with complaining that I suggest some people think there's a patriarchy when we both know damn well that's (that some people believe it) not even up for debate. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:896003848] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>CruelBuffalo posted...</cite> <quote><quote>There's no secret sexist patriarchal conspiracy, </quote> Can you honestly just fucking grow up? No one is saying that or implying that. Can you stop painting everyone who is curious about the why as having some nefarious agenda to shit on men and praise the abused woman. Its tiring and childish. None of us have said things have to change or that people need to adjust their habits at home. Its looking at the WHY do women not want to take those shifts. Is it to take care of family because the man isnt doing as much? If so, I would consider it decent to at the very least appreciate someone doing things for their family</quote> Cut the crap. The nebulous "but WHY I wonder" questions are never genuine. They're vague as to imply something more, when there's nothing more there. Even in your reply here, you had to tag on "well maybe it's because men aren't doing enough at home." Are you even willing to entertain the notion that the "why" is simply "because they want to" and that society is, in fact, pretty much evenly balanced based on those preferences? That rational adults distribute work between each other in a fair way? Because if not, then you're no better than the label I'm providing because you presuppose a problem and go looking for evidence. And oh by the way, if you've EVER used some "Trump cultist" derivative to describe anyone defending him in a topic, then you can fuck right off with complaining that I suggest some people think there's a patriarchy when we both know damn well that's (that some people believe it) not even up for debate.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
CruelBuffalo 02/13/18 12:00:56 PM #76:	Cut the crap. The nebulous "but WHY I wonder" questions are never genuine Except it is. Not my fault youre jaded and create strawmen of people just asking question. Notice how you went off the handle at me saying I was implying things when IN THE BEGINNING OF THE TOPIC I made fun of articles framing this as Ubers fault and women were being unfairly paid. <cite>CruelBuffalo posted [p:896004149] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><quote>Cut the crap. The nebulous "but WHY I wonder" questions are never genuine</quote> Except it is. Not my fault youre jaded and create strawmen of people just asking question. Notice how you went off the handle at me saying I was implying things when IN THE BEGINNING OF THE TOPIC I made fun of articles framing this as Ubers fault and women were being unfairly paid.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 02/13/18 12:02:14 PM #77:	CruelBuffalo posted... Cut the crap. The nebulous "but WHY I wonder" questions are never genuine Except it is. Not my fault youre jaded and create strawmen of people just asking question. Notice how you went off the handle at me saying I was implying things when IN THE BEGINNING OF THE TOPIC I made fun of articles framing this as Ubers fault and women were being unfairly paid. Are you scar? Because I replied to him, not you. You're the one who started this shit by telling me to grow up when I wasn't even talking to you. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:896004215] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>CruelBuffalo posted...</cite> <quote><quote>Cut the crap. The nebulous "but WHY I wonder" questions are never genuine</quote> Except it is. Not my fault youre jaded and create strawmen of people just asking question. Notice how you went off the handle at me saying I was implying things when IN THE BEGINNING OF THE TOPIC I made fun of articles framing this as Ubers fault and women were being unfairly paid.</quote> Are you scar? Because I replied to him, not you. You're the one who started this shit by telling me to grow up when I wasn't even talking to you.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
CruelBuffalo 02/13/18 12:06:13 PM #78:	s0nicfan posted... Anteaterking posted... s0nicfan posted... Same difference. There's no evidence the data is biased either. The moment we start playing politics with our datasets we've screwed ourselves over. All data is inherently biased. We don't have the luxury of working with data points in infinite dimensional space. Choices of different variables can lead to dramatically different models even with regards to the variables they have in common. And that's when we have objective qualitative data. It feels like you are trying to argue that Uber shouldn't pay women more per job to balance out this effect, but I don't think anyone in this topic is saying they should. But it would be improper to try to use this data set to say "Men are just better at earning money than women". You're not. Buffalo is, in a roundabout way. <cite>CruelBuffalo posted [p:896004399] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Anteaterking posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Same difference. There's no evidence the data is biased either. The moment we start playing politics with our datasets we've screwed ourselves over.</quote> All data is inherently biased. We don't have the luxury of working with data points in infinite dimensional space. Choices of different variables can lead to dramatically different models even with regards to the variables they have in common. And that's when we have objective qualitative data. It feels like you are trying to argue that Uber shouldn't pay women more per job to balance out this effect, but I don't think anyone in this topic is saying they should. But it would be improper to try to use this data set to say "Men are just better at earning money than women".</quote> You're not. Buffalo is, in a roundabout way.</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
CruelBuffalo 02/13/18 12:07:53 PM #79:	Basically youre paranoid and make inferences on people analyzing a study instead of addressing the content. Theres no point in having a conversation with you. <cite>CruelBuffalo posted [p:896004493] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote>Basically youre paranoid and make inferences on people analyzing a study instead of addressing the content. Theres no point in having a conversation with you.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 02/13/18 12:12:50 PM #80:	CruelBuffalo posted... Basically youre paranoid and make inferences on people analyzing a study instead of addressing the content. Theres no point in having a conversation with you. Can I save this off and reference it the next time you're having a political discussion and you decide to comment on the poster arguing against you and not the argument they're making? --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:896004742] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>CruelBuffalo posted...</cite> <quote>Basically youre paranoid and make inferences on people analyzing a study instead of addressing the content. Theres no point in having a conversation with you.</quote> Can I save this off and reference it the next time you're having a political discussion and you decide to comment on the poster arguing against you and not the argument they're making?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1 02/13/18 12:13:27 PM #81:	DifferentialEquation posted... scar the 1 posted... DifferentialEquation posted... I'm not that interested, Is NonDairyMiltank your alt? I swear I'm getting more paranoid by the day here No. I don't have any alts. OK, reason I ask is because the question was directed at him specifically, and you responded to it. Sorry for the confusion. --- Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two. <cite>scar the 1 posted [p:896004779] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>DifferentialEquation posted...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>DifferentialEquation posted...</cite> <quote>I'm not that interested,</quote> Is NonDairyMiltank your alt? I swear I'm getting more paranoid by the day here</quote> No. I don't have any alts.</quote> OK, reason I ask is because the question was directed at him specifically, and you responded to it. Sorry for the confusion.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1 02/13/18 12:15:04 PM #82:	s0nicfan posted... scar the 1 posted... NonDairyMiltank posted... if there's "unpaid labor" costs that are creating disadvantages for working women in jobs where pay is offered at equal rates regardless of gender, maybe they need to make different personal choices if they want to avoid dealing with those costs as an employee of that job Tell me this - are you in any way even curious why there's a difference in which "personal choices" man and women make, respectively? No, because when Sweden attempted to completely eliminate gender from children's programs, they found that boys and girls still fell along traditional lines when it came to interests. Do you mind linking the study? I don't know that I've seen it, and it sounds interesting. --- Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two. <cite>scar the 1 posted [p:896004875] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>NonDairyMiltank posted...</cite> <quote>if there's "unpaid labor" costs that are creating disadvantages for working women in jobs where pay is offered at equal rates regardless of gender, maybe they need to make different personal choices if they want to avoid dealing with those costs as an employee of that job</quote> Tell me this - are you in any way even curious why there's a difference in which "personal choices" man and women make, respectively?</quote> No, because when Sweden attempted to completely eliminate gender from children's programs, they found that boys and girls still fell along traditional lines when it came to interests.</quote> Do you mind linking the study? I don't know that I've seen it, and it sounds interesting.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 02/13/18 12:19:08 PM #83:	scar the 1 posted... s0nicfan posted... scar the 1 posted... NonDairyMiltank posted... if there's "unpaid labor" costs that are creating disadvantages for working women in jobs where pay is offered at equal rates regardless of gender, maybe they need to make different personal choices if they want to avoid dealing with those costs as an employee of that job Tell me this - are you in any way even curious why there's a difference in which "personal choices" man and women make, respectively? No, because when Sweden attempted to completely eliminate gender from children's programs, they found that boys and girls still fell along traditional lines when it came to interests. Do you mind linking the study? I don't know that I've seen it, and it sounds interesting. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-005-1196-5 The aim of this study was to describe and analyze differences between girls and boys toy collections in a country that strongly emphasizes gender equality (Sweden). The study was based on the assumptions that toy collections reflect social values in the society where they are found and that Sweden has less gendered values than do many other countries. The toy collections of 152 3- and 5-year old Swedish children were inventoried, and the results were analyzed and discussed in relation to previous research on childrens toy collections and toy preferences in North America and Western Europe. The Swedish toy collections were found to be gender-typed in ways similar to those reported in previous research in other countries. Also, a collection of studies on it: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-consumericus/201212/sex-specific-toy-preferences-learned-or-innate Children who are in the pre-socialization stage of their cognitive development exhibit sex-specific preferences Little girls who suffer from congenital adrenal hyperplasia, an endocrinological disorder that masculinizes morphological features and behavioral patterns, exhibit toy preferences that are more masculine than their female counterparts who do not suffer from the disorder Also as a bonus, study shows that kids prefer gendered toys: https://www.city.ac.uk/news/2016/july/infants-prefer-toys-typed-to-their-gender,-says-study The research therefore suggests the possibility that boys and girls follow different developmental trajectories with respect to selection of gender-typed toys and that there is both a biological and a developmental-environmental components to the sex differences seen in object preferences. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:896005113] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>NonDairyMiltank posted...</cite> <quote>if there's "unpaid labor" costs that are creating disadvantages for working women in jobs where pay is offered at equal rates regardless of gender, maybe they need to make different personal choices if they want to avoid dealing with those costs as an employee of that job</quote> Tell me this - are you in any way even curious why there's a difference in which "personal choices" man and women make, respectively?</quote> No, because when Sweden attempted to completely eliminate gender from children's programs, they found that boys and girls still fell along traditional lines when it came to interests.</quote> Do you mind linking the study? I don't know that I've seen it, and it sounds interesting.</quote> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-005-1196-5 <quote>The aim of this study was to describe and analyze differences between girls and boys toy collections in a country that strongly emphasizes gender equality (Sweden). The study was based on the assumptions that toy collections reflect social values in the society where they are found and that Sweden has less gendered values than do many other countries. The toy collections of 152 3- and 5-year old Swedish children were inventoried, and the results were analyzed and discussed in relation to previous research on childrens toy collections and toy preferences in North America and Western Europe. The Swedish toy collections were found to be gender-typed in ways similar to those reported in previous research in other countries.</quote> Also, a collection of studies on it: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-consumericus/201212/sex-specific-toy-preferences-learned-or-innate <quote>Children who are in the pre-socialization stage of their cognitive development exhibit sex-specific preferences Little girls who suffer from congenital adrenal hyperplasia, an endocrinological disorder that masculinizes morphological features and behavioral patterns, exhibit toy preferences that are more masculine than their female counterparts who do not suffer from the disorder</quote> Also as a bonus, study shows that kids prefer gendered toys: https://www.city.ac.uk/news/2016/july/infants-prefer-toys-typed-to-their-gender,-says-study <quote>The research therefore suggests the possibility that boys and girls follow different developmental trajectories with respect to selection of gender-typed toys and that there is both a biological and a developmental-environmental components to the sex differences seen in object preferences.</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1 02/13/18 3:35:40 PM #84:	Thanks! This is interesting :) --- Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two. <cite>scar the 1 posted [p:896017283] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote>Thanks! This is interesting :)</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1 02/13/18 3:45:37 PM #85:	Although... I'm not really sure the studies that you cite are saying what you think they are saying. In fact, from what I can see they don't support what you're saying at all. --- Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two. <cite>scar the 1 posted [p:896017889] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote>Although... I'm not really sure the studies that you cite are saying what you think they are saying. In fact, from what I can see they don't support what you're saying at all.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 02/13/18 3:51:46 PM #86:	scar the 1 posted... Although... I'm not really sure the studies that you cite are saying what you think they are saying. In fact, from what I can see they don't support what you're saying at all. My claim was that there are fundamental differences between men and women. Sweden has been attempting to prove this wrong by creating a fully gender neutral society, but even in that society there is clear evidence that preferences between genders is more than just a social construct. I'm aware that those articles and others also cite different kids of benefits for their society for doing these experiments, but with regard specifically to the issue of the genders having different priorities, and that being totally natural, I'd say it supports them fairly well. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:896018304] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote>Although... I'm not really sure the studies that you cite are saying what you think they are saying. In fact, from what I can see they don't support what you're saying at all.</quote> My claim was that there are fundamental differences between men and women. Sweden has been attempting to prove this wrong by creating a fully gender neutral society, but even in that society there is clear evidence that preferences between genders is more than just a social construct. I'm aware that those articles and others also cite different kids of benefits for their society for doing these experiments, but with regard specifically to the issue of the genders having different priorities, and that being totally natural, I'd say it supports them fairly well.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1 02/13/18 4:09:03 PM #87:	s0nicfan posted... My claim was that there are fundamental differences between men and women. No one is contesting that claim. What is complete bullshit is the following: s0nicfan posted... Sweden has been attempting to prove this wrong by creating a fully gender neutral society I asked for a study about it, and you cited a study saying that Sweden was assumed to be more gender neutral than the rest of the world, however this is not reflected in the toys they give their kids. In its review of related work, it even states things like Other researchers, such as Raag (1999), have shown that attitudes toward gender roles among peers, siblings, and other significant others influence the childs choice of toys. and There are a few studies that focused particularly upon the relation between social attitudes toward gender and childrens toy collections. In one such study, Zammuner (1987) examined the toy preferences of Italian and Dutch children and found empirical support for the notion that childrens toy preferences reflect the social view of gender differences. Italian childrens preferences were more gender-typed, and this was interpreted as a reflection of more gender-typed social attitudes in Italy than those found in The Netherlands. In fact, most of the studies you've presented seem to indicate that a lot of the preferences are learned. This doesn't mean that there aren't differences, though. Like I said, everyone agrees that there are fundamental differences. --- Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two. <cite>scar the 1 posted [p:896019441] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>My claim was that there are fundamental differences between men and women.</quote> No one is contesting that claim. What is complete bullshit is the following: <cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Sweden has been attempting to prove this wrong by creating a fully gender neutral society</quote> I asked for a study about it, and you cited a study saying that Sweden was assumed to be more gender neutral than the rest of the world, however this is not reflected in the toys they give their kids. In its review of related work, it even states things like <quote>Other researchers, such as Raag (1999), have shown that attitudes toward gender roles among peers, siblings, and other significant others influence the childs choice of toys.</quote> and <quote>There are a few studies that focused particularly upon the relation between social attitudes toward gender and childrens toy collections. In one such study, Zammuner (1987) examined the toy preferences of Italian and Dutch children and found empirical support for the notion that childrens toy preferences reflect the social view of gender differences. Italian childrens preferences were more gender-typed, and this was interpreted as a reflection of more gender-typed social attitudes in Italy than those found in The Netherlands.</quote> In fact, most of the studies you've presented seem to indicate that a lot of the preferences are learned. This doesn't mean that there aren't differences, though. Like I said, everyone agrees that there are fundamental differences.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 02/13/18 4:12:07 PM #88:	scar the 1 posted... Like I said, everyone agrees that there are fundamental differences. s0nicfan posted... but with regard specifically to the issue of the genders having different priorities, and that being totally natural, I'd say it supports them fairly well. Then we're in agreement. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:896019648] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote>Like I said, everyone agrees that there are fundamental differences.</quote> <cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>but with regard specifically to the issue of the genders having different priorities, and that being totally natural, I'd say it supports them fairly well.</quote> Then we're in agreement.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Deadpool_18 02/13/18 4:12:47 PM #89:	The fuck? How? --- We're whalers on the moon, we carry a harpoon, but there ain't no whales, so we tell tall tales, and sing our whaling tune. <cite>Deadpool_18 posted [p:896019694] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote>The fuck? How?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1 02/13/18 4:14:56 PM #90:	s0nicfan posted... scar the 1 posted... Like I said, everyone agrees that there are fundamental differences. s0nicfan posted... but with regard specifically to the issue of the genders having different priorities, and that being totally natural, I'd say it supports them fairly well. Then we're in agreement. It's one thing to acknowledge than there are differences between men and women, it's another to show with any sort of confidence that these biological differences inevitably lead to women ending up doing a lot more unpaid labor than men. --- Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two. <cite>scar the 1 posted [p:896019835] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote>Like I said, everyone agrees that there are fundamental differences.</quote> <cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>but with regard specifically to the issue of the genders having different priorities, and that being totally natural, I'd say it supports them fairly well.</quote> Then we're in agreement.</quote> It's one thing to acknowledge than there are differences between men and women, it's another to show with any sort of confidence that these biological differences inevitably lead to women ending up doing a lot more unpaid labor than men.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 02/13/18 4:20:42 PM #91:	I'llscar the 1 posted... s0nicfan posted... scar the 1 posted... Like I said, everyone agrees that there are fundamental differences. s0nicfan posted... but with regard specifically to the issue of the genders having different priorities, and that being totally natural, I'd say it supports them fairly well. Then we're in agreement. It's one thing to acknowledge than there are differences between men and women, it's another to show with any sort of confidence that these biological differences inevitably lead to women ending up doing a lot more unpaid labor than men. There's no proof they are. And in order to come up with any sort of comparison, you would have to Value the unpaid labor that everyone does so you could compare what traditionally a male job versus a female job. How many loads of laundry is equal to one lawn mowing, to use a stereotypical example. Would also have to value societal benefits that each gender supposedly has, in order to come up with a meaningful total. To use another stereotypical example, what is the value of men having to remain on a sinking ship until last? --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:896020201] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote>I'll<cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>scar the 1 posted...</cite> <quote>Like I said, everyone agrees that there are fundamental differences.</quote> <cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>but with regard specifically to the issue of the genders having different priorities, and that being totally natural, I'd say it supports them fairly well.</quote> Then we're in agreement.</quote> It's one thing to acknowledge than there are differences between men and women, it's another to show with any sort of confidence that these biological differences inevitably lead to women ending up doing a lot more unpaid labor than men.</quote> There's no proof they are. And in order to come up with any sort of comparison, you would have to Value the unpaid labor that everyone does so you could compare what traditionally a male job versus a female job. How many loads of laundry is equal to one lawn mowing, to use a stereotypical example. Would also have to value societal benefits that each gender supposedly has, in order to come up with a meaningful total. To use another stereotypical example, what is the value of men having to remain on a sinking ship until last?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DifferentialEquation 02/13/18 4:21:39 PM #92:	s0nicfan posted... CruelBuffalo posted... There's no secret sexist patriarchal conspiracy, Can you honestly just fucking grow up? No one is saying that or implying that. Can you stop painting everyone who is curious about the why as having some nefarious agenda to shit on men and praise the abused woman. Its tiring and childish. None of us have said things have to change or that people need to adjust their habits at home. Its looking at the WHY do women not want to take those shifts. Is it to take care of family because the man isnt doing as much? If so, I would consider it decent to at the very least appreciate someone doing things for their family Cut the crap. The nebulous "but WHY I wonder" questions are never genuine. They're vague as to imply something more, when there's nothing more there. Even in your reply here, you had to tag on "well maybe it's because men aren't doing enough at home." Are you even willing to entertain the notion that the "why" is simply "because they want to" and that society is, in fact, pretty much evenly balanced based on those preferences? That rational adults distribute work between each other in a fair way? Because if not, then you're no better than the label I'm providing because you presuppose a problem and go looking for evidence. And oh by the way, if you've EVER used some "Trump cultist" derivative to describe anyone defending him in a topic, then you can fuck right off with complaining that I suggest some people think there's a patriarchy when we both know damn well that's (that some people believe it) not even up for debate. Definitely agree with this. I've also noticed that the people who claim to be interested in the "why" only ever seem to care why women are choosing to work less hours, or why less women are choosing to go into math or computer science, etc. They never give a shit why less men are choosing to go into nursing or veterinary medicine, or why men are much more likely to choose fields where they'll be killed or maimed. --- There's no business to be taxed. <cite>DifferentialEquation posted [p:896020255] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>CruelBuffalo posted...</cite> <quote><quote>There's no secret sexist patriarchal conspiracy, </quote> Can you honestly just fucking grow up? No one is saying that or implying that. Can you stop painting everyone who is curious about the why as having some nefarious agenda to shit on men and praise the abused woman. Its tiring and childish. None of us have said things have to change or that people need to adjust their habits at home. Its looking at the WHY do women not want to take those shifts. Is it to take care of family because the man isnt doing as much? If so, I would consider it decent to at the very least appreciate someone doing things for their family</quote> Cut the crap. The nebulous "but WHY I wonder" questions are never genuine. They're vague as to imply something more, when there's nothing more there. Even in your reply here, you had to tag on "well maybe it's because men aren't doing enough at home." Are you even willing to entertain the notion that the "why" is simply "because they want to" and that society is, in fact, pretty much evenly balanced based on those preferences? That rational adults distribute work between each other in a fair way? Because if not, then you're no better than the label I'm providing because you presuppose a problem and go looking for evidence. And oh by the way, if you've EVER used some "Trump cultist" derivative to describe anyone defending him in a topic, then you can fuck right off with complaining that I suggest some people think there's a patriarchy when we both know damn well that's (that some people believe it) not even up for debate.</quote> Definitely agree with this. I've also noticed that the people who claim to be interested in the "why" only ever seem to care why women are choosing to work less hours, or why less women are choosing to go into math or computer science, etc. They never give a shit why less men are choosing to go into nursing or veterinary medicine, or why men are much more likely to choose fields where they'll be killed or maimed.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
CruelBuffalo 02/13/18 4:24:19 PM #93:	They never give a shit why less men are choosing to go into nursing or veterinary medicine, or why men are much more likely to choose fields where they'll be killed or maimed. Not really on my radar. Though a better example would be why men dont go into teaching since many young boys dont see male role models in school. Im curious, if youre complaining that those are big issues, do you feel the lack of women in tech jobs in an issue? <cite>CruelBuffalo posted [p:896020425] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><quote>They never give a shit why less men are choosing to go into nursing or veterinary medicine, or why men are much more likely to choose fields where they'll be killed or maimed.</quote> Not really on my radar. Though a better example would be why men dont go into teaching since many young boys dont see male role models in school. Im curious, if youre complaining that those are big issues, do you feel the lack of women in tech jobs in an issue?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
scar the 1 02/13/18 4:28:35 PM #94:	s0nicfan posted... There's no proof they are. Hang on, are you saying that there's no evidence that women are doing more unpaid labor than men are doing? --- Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two. <cite>scar the 1 posted [p:896020684] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>There's no proof they are.</quote> Hang on, are you saying that there's no evidence that women are doing more unpaid labor than men are doing?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Funbazooka 02/13/18 4:29:13 PM #95:	Nuff said https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MioIksr8i00 --- I'll defend any man's Funbazooka! <cite>Funbazooka posted [p:896020734] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote>Nuff said https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MioIksr8i00</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DifferentialEquation 02/13/18 4:31:23 PM #96:	CruelBuffalo posted... They never give a shit why less men are choosing to go into nursing or veterinary medicine, or why men are much more likely to choose fields where they'll be killed or maimed. Not really on my radar. Though a better example would be why men dont go into teaching since many young boys dont see male role models in school. Im curious, if youre complaining that those are big issues, do you feel the lack of women in tech jobs in an issue? I don't think they're big issues. I care if there's an actual discriminatory policy that keeps men or women out of certain fields. I don't particularly care about the choices individuals make (in this context). --- There's no business to be taxed. <cite>DifferentialEquation posted [p:896020874] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>CruelBuffalo posted...</cite> <quote><quote>They never give a shit why less men are choosing to go into nursing or veterinary medicine, or why men are much more likely to choose fields where they'll be killed or maimed.</quote> Not really on my radar. Though a better example would be why men dont go into teaching since many young boys dont see male role models in school. Im curious, if youre complaining that those are big issues, do you feel the lack of women in tech jobs in an issue?</quote> I don't think they're big issues. I care if there's an actual discriminatory policy that keeps men or women out of certain fields. I don't particularly care about the choices individuals make (in this context).</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Anteaterking 02/13/18 4:48:13 PM #97:	DifferentialEquation posted... or why men are much more likely to choose fields where they'll be killed or maimed. Well for some of those fields e.g. military, they aren't even allowed to want to die at the same level as their male peers. --- http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Anteaterking/scan00021.jpg http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Anteaterking/scan00021.jpg <cite>Anteaterking posted [p:896021952] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>DifferentialEquation posted...</cite> <quote>or why men are much more likely to choose fields where they'll be killed or maimed.</quote> Well for some of those fields e.g. military, they aren't even allowed to want to die at the same level as their male peers.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
darkjedilink 02/13/18 4:58:10 PM #98:	Anteaterking posted... DifferentialEquation posted... or why men are much more likely to choose fields where they'll be killed or maimed. Well for some of those fields e.g. military, they aren't even allowed to want to die at the same level as their male peers. When the US Marine Corps allowed women into combat, out of all the women in the Marines, only 20 went to Infantry Training. Only 2 graduated. --- 'It's okay that those gangbangers stole all my personal belongings and cash at gunpoint, cuz they're building a rec center!' - OneTimeBen <cite>darkjedilink posted [p:896022580] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>Anteaterking posted...</cite> <quote><cite>DifferentialEquation posted...</cite> <quote>or why men are much more likely to choose fields where they'll be killed or maimed.</quote> Well for some of those fields e.g. military, they aren't even allowed to want to die at the same level as their male peers.</quote> When the US Marine Corps allowed women into combat, out of all the women in the Marines, only 20 went to Infantry Training. Only 2 graduated.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
CruelBuffalo 02/13/18 5:37:42 PM #99:	DifferentialEquation posted... CruelBuffalo posted... They never give a shit why less men are choosing to go into nursing or veterinary medicine, or why men are much more likely to choose fields where they'll be killed or maimed. Not really on my radar. Though a better example would be why men dont go into teaching since many young boys dont see male role models in school. Im curious, if youre complaining that those are big issues, do you feel the lack of women in tech jobs in an issue? I don't think they're big issues. I care if there's an actual discriminatory policy that keeps men or women out of certain fields. I don't particularly care about the choices individuals make (in this context). Is there a big discriminatory policy in Vet or Nursing? If so whyd you bring it up? Im inferring that men are more likely to go to be (people) doctors rather than nursing/vets.... <cite>CruelBuffalo posted [p:896024883] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>DifferentialEquation posted...</cite> <quote><cite>CruelBuffalo posted...</cite> <quote><quote>They never give a shit why less men are choosing to go into nursing or veterinary medicine, or why men are much more likely to choose fields where they'll be killed or maimed.</quote> Not really on my radar. Though a better example would be why men dont go into teaching since many young boys dont see male role models in school. Im curious, if youre complaining that those are big issues, do you feel the lack of women in tech jobs in an issue?</quote> I don't think they're big issues. I care if there's an actual discriminatory policy that keeps men or women out of certain fields. I don't particularly care about the choices individuals make (in this context).</quote> Is there a big discriminatory policy in Vet or Nursing? If so whyd you bring it up? Im inferring that men are more likely to go to be (people) doctors rather than nursing/vets....</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
darkjedilink 02/13/18 5:41:27 PM #100:	CruelBuffalo posted... Is there a big discriminatory policy in Vet or Nursing? If so whyd you bring it up? Im inferring that men are more likely to go to be (people) doctors rather than nursing/vets.... Is there a discriminatory policy for surgeons? Mechanics? Game developers? IT? Finance? --- 'It's okay that those gangbangers stole all my personal belongings and cash at gunpoint, cuz they're building a rec center!' - OneTimeBen <cite>darkjedilink posted [p:896025092] in Male uber ... [t:76311361]...</cite> <quote><cite>CruelBuffalo posted...</cite> <quote>Is there a big discriminatory policy in Vet or Nursing? If so whyd you bring it up? Im inferring that men are more likely to go to be (people) doctors rather than nursing/vets....</quote> Is there a discriminatory policy for surgeons? Mechanics? Game developers? IT? Finance?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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