Board 8 > Star Wars: The Last Jedi: SPOILER TOPIC Episode IV: A New Grievance

(+) Yeah! (+)

None of the humor in the Finn+Rose vs Phasma scenes worked for me. In fact those scenes were probably the worst part of the movie. "Chrome Dome", "Need a lift?", "Rebel scum", the reaction to BB-8 as AT-ST pilot, etc. It all made the tone of those scenes very silly, which is completely out of place considering they just found out 2 minutes earlier that their plan got most of the Resistance killed, and now they're on an exploding ship fighting for their lives and don't really have time to be making little quips every few seconds.

Luke's humor was great.
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The Poe / Hux phone call bit was so out of place.
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As someone who saw Thor before TLJ, TLJ is definitely not as quippy as a Marvel movie
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There's not that many jokes in TLJ but how does that make it okay? How does that make them fit in more?
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SirBinro posted...

None of the humor in the Finn+Rose vs Phasma scenes worked for me. In fact those scenes were probably the worst part of the movie. "Chrome Dome", "Need a lift?", "Rebel scum", the reaction to BB-8 as AT-ST pilot, etc. It all made the tone of those scenes very silly, which is completely out of place considering they just found out 2 minutes earlier that their plan got most of the Resistance killed, and now they're on an exploding ship fighting for their lives and don't really have time to be making little quips every few seconds.

Luke's humor was great.

"Chrome dome" was kind of like the worst line ever. That seems like something you'd hear in a dumb 90's kids movie. Not a dumb 10's kids movie.
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My biggest issue with the movie, now that it's all sunk in, was the lack of development for Rey.

Snoke connected her to Kylo Ben, but those scenes were used to give HIM more development than her. She was pressuring him to defect. We were getting more thoughts of his and more of his past than hers - and he wasn't pressuring her as hard. When she fell into the mirror void or w/e it's called, we got zilch. They had plenty of opportunities but did not capitalize on them as much as they could have.

One prediction that occurred to me was that Kylo Ben and Rey switch places, essentially, and Rey becomes the new Vader for the next trilogy, mask and all. Basically, an unexpected redux of Anakin. She has a strong resolve, but the Darkness...

I like Poe, but he's not anything special or memorable. Rey is more interesting to me, but this movie didn't do enough for her when it really should have.

I did like the humor. Porgs helped a lot with that (like when they begged for mercy in the most adorkable way when Chewy was eating their friend). "Get your head out of your cockpit" was great. I chuckled at the "Jakku is nowhere" comment. The humor worked here - it wasn't overdone and it wasn't underdone. Comic relief is very necessary. There's a reason I miss the good ol' Q Branch scenes in the James Bond movies - they provided a necessary laugh even in the most serious Bond films. Now even those are serious. Star Wars did it right here.

The Force is a Deus Ex Machina used as necessary. That's the very concept of it.

Question: Was Phasma really a woman? That eye bugs me. The entire point of the character was to have a "female Vader" for toys, yes, and pander to feminist bigots. The character was not explored at all and I forgot she existed until she showed up. If Rey also becomes a "female Vader" then Phasma's point was also that of distraction.
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KujikawaRising posted...

One prediction that occurred to me was that Kylo Ben and Rey switch places, essentially, and Rey becomes the new Vader for the next trilogy, mask and all. Basically, an unexpected redux of Anakin. She has a strong resolve, but the Darkness...

They were setting this up to maybe be a thing and then they literally closed a door on it.

https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2017/12/mark-hamill-addresses-luke-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi.html

Leafeon13N posted...

KujikawaRising posted...

One prediction that occurred to me was that Kylo Ben and Rey switch places, essentially, and Rey becomes the new Vader for the next trilogy, mask and all. Basically, an unexpected redux of Anakin. She has a strong resolve, but the Darkness...

They were setting this up to maybe be a thing and then they literally closed a door on it.

and thank goodness for that
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KujikawaRising posted...

Question: Was Phasma really a woman? That eye bugs me. The entire point of the character was to have a "female Vader" for toys, yes, and pander to feminist bigots. The character was not explored at all and I forgot she existed until she showed up. If Rey also becomes a "female Vader" then Phasma's point was also that of distraction.

lmao what the fuck

I bet Boba Fett wasn't a man, either
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SaveEstelle posted...

https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2017/12/mark-hamill-addresses-luke-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi.html

We got a different Luke Skywalker than most expected, but different does not necessarily a bad thing.

No, but a bad thing means a bad thing, and Luke's story in TLJ was basically a huge steaming pile of bantha dung.

KujikawaRising posted...

Question: Was Phasma really a woman?

I mean, she has a female actress who refers to Phasma as female, so yes:

https://www.cinemablend.com/new/Why-Captain-Phasma-Kept-Her-Helmet-According-Gwendoline-Christie-113207.html

KujikawaRising posted...

The entire point of the character was to have a "female Vader" for toys, yes

It was supposed to be a Bobba Fett style character (not Vader). Originally in the script it was a minor character written for a guy, but then they realized that they had no relevant female villains at all in TFA, and it was a pretty easy character to re-cast with Gwendoline Christie.

By and large it's been the fans who've been like "wait, if you're going to have a female villain, we want to hear more about her, and she should have more than 60 seconds of screen time."
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metroid composite posted...

It was supposed to be a Bobba Fett style character (not Vader). Originally in the script it was a minor character written for a guy, but then they realized that they had no relevant female villains at all in TFA, and it was a pretty easy character to re-cast with Gwendoline Christie.

This is why I asked the question. It was a guy in the suit in TFA, was it not? And they recast the voiceover with Gwendoline? That's what bugs me. Voice scrambling is entirely possible in this universe...

Boba Fett was definitely a guy.

Leafeon13N posted...

KujikawaRising posted...

One prediction that occurred to me was that Kylo Ben and Rey switch places, essentially, and Rey becomes the new Vader for the next trilogy, mask and all. Basically, an unexpected redux of Anakin. She has a strong resolve, but the Darkness...

They were setting this up to maybe be a thing and then they literally closed a door on it.

Just because one door closes doesn't mean another one won't open. Episode 9 could focus on both Kylo Ben and Rey battling between light and dark once again. Though, with Snoke dead, are the two still psychologically linked?
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No, she didn't just do voice over. She was in the suit.
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KujikawaRising posted...

metroid composite posted...This is why I asked the question. It was a guy in the suit in TFA, was it not? And they recast the voiceover with Gwendoline? That's what bugs me. Voice scrambling is entirely possible in this universe...

No, it was gwendolyn christie in the suit in TFA. She's like 6'3" IRL, which is how she got her role in Game of Thrones.
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KujikawaRising posted...

It was a guy in the suit in TFA, was it not?

wat
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Captain Phasma's armor was originally a rejected Kylo Ren design that someone saw and said why tf aren't we using this
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redrocket_pub posted...

No, she didn't just do voice over. She was in the suit.

metroid composite posted...

KujikawaRising posted...

metroid composite posted...This is why I asked the question. It was a guy in the suit in TFA, was it not? And they recast the voiceover with Gwendoline? That's what bugs me. Voice scrambling is entirely possible in this universe...

No, it was gwendolyn christie in the suit in TFA. She's like 6'3" IRL, which is how she got her role in Game of Thrones.

Okay, I had misinformation. I thought they'd filmed it with a guy in the suit and then decided the character should be female afterward. My bad. Thanks for the clarity.
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Still holding on to hope that Rey is an AI created by Dr. Light aka Galen Erso.
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I find it strange people are so down on Luke. He's the best part of the movie IMO.

Seems like people are super hung up on the idea he'd try to kill a sleeping child and that the very idea is super out of character for Luke. And sure, maybe if you want to frame things like that you can convince yourself this is true... but it's not true. Anybody can be capable of anything if pushed into the right circumstances.

Let's imagine what happened that night.

Luke has been training Ben Solo and a bunch of other students for a while. But he's noticed Ben is a bit too aggressive than normal. He's vicious in training. He has explosive bouts of anger. He often goes too far when practicing forms and destroys things, like how Rey destroyed that one stone outcropping on the island by accident. Maybe Luke is also aware of some kind of contact Snoke has had with Ben in the past.

So he decides to touch his mind while he's sleeping with the force and see what Ben's true feelings are and if he's intentionally creeping towards the dark side. So Luke comes to Ben when he's sleeping and mind melds or some shit. When he does this, he senses the overwhelming evil Ben is capable of. it's terrifying. He can see that not only is Kylo Ren capable of mass murder, but also the murder of those around him. Not only is he capable of this, but he WANTS to do it. Out of pure horror and instinct, he feels that this darkness has to be stopped before it can do any of those things.

Then looks down at his hand and see he's drawn and activated his lightsabre. He's even more horrified at what was about to do than even what he saw in Ben's mind. So he turns off the lightsabre and leaves, resolving to find a way to save Ben from himself.

To me, this entire sequence seems COMPLETELY believable and within Luke's character. He's always been quick to fight when called for, but reflective of the implications of what he does. Honestly, this is definitively Luke.

The hiccup in this scene comes when Ben wakes up and sees Luke looking down in horror on his activated lightsabre. There's not really any other way to interpret that other than Luke is about to kill him in his sleep so he reacts appropriately and developes a burning hatred for Luke, the master who betrayed him.

And what can Luke do to convince him otherwise? He really did have a moment of reactionary weakness where he did want to kill Ben. "Oops, sorry, I was gonna kill you but I changed my mind." How can he explain this to Ben, or to Leia, or to Han? How can he even justify this to himself?

Luke is a good guy. He's an astonishingly good guy. And he had a very brief but understandable moment where he felt like killing Kylo Ren was the best thing to do. And he's deeply ashamed of it. Now he sees HIMSELF as the monster. Of course he does. He's a good guy. Good guys dont kill kids. So he must be a pretty bad fucking guy. The universe is better off without him.

So that's why he lives in exile. That's why he does everything he does in the movie.

And it's awesome.

It's really weird to see the same people complaining about Luke as the same who say this movie played it safe or took no risks. Yeah, apparently having Luke briefly consider killing a kid and becoming a bitter old man due to it is both playing it safe and completely out of character for OT Luke.
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People: "Rey is such a mary sue!"

Those same people, sometimes: "Luke shouldn't be capable of making terrifying errors in judgment!"

I don't think anyone would argue OT Luke wasn't a mary sue though
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Luke got his ass handed to him in nearly every fight he was in, including by the disco-ball lightsaber practice droid.
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You know what I'm really depressed about?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjs9EmMWSvQ

Why we can't get a good fucking Star Wars game. What the hell, just get your shit together already, it's not that hard!
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We can, it just needs to be in the Jedi Knight series not Battlefront

But all your nerds raved about Battlefront for decades (even though the old games were also mediocre grindy wastes of time) so this is what we get
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Fuck you Battlefront II in 2005 was the shit.

Jedi Knight was the shit as well.

Give us more of that.
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Battlefront > Battlefront 2, as far as the originals go

No comment on the EA Dumpster Fires
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Neither Luke nor Rey are Mary Sues. Regardless, people calling Rey that while at the same time giving Luke a free pass really makes me think that a lot of people's current issues with Star Wars are due to their writing standards improving over time.
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Another DYKG video (which was the most heartbreaking one) talks about how Battlefront 3 was 99% complete but because of corporate bullshit it never got finished.

There's a lot of fantastic Star Wars games that were never released because of similar bullshit, lots of Lucas interference too.
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Still upset the Uncharted clone Star Wars game got canned.

Star Wars 1313, that's what it was called.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Still upset the Uncharted clone Star Wars game got canned.

Apparently in the video it says it hasn't yet
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Just make a Poe Dameron Rogue Squadron sequel and all will be forgiven
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I had that same thought recently, I just want more Rogue Squadron

My hope is that I'll have a good Star Wars game within the next 10 years
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AquaArcane posted...

Another DYKG video (which was the most heartbreaking one) talks about how Battlefront 3 was 99% complete but because of corporate bullshit it never got finished.

There's a lot of fantastic Star Wars games that were never released because of similar bullshit, lots of Lucas interference too.

It was not 99% complete, it was like 60 or 70 percent complete. What they had finished has leaked out and it is very clearly far from complete.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Still upset the Uncharted clone Star Wars game got canned.

Star Wars 1313, that's what it was called.

1313 was not the Uncharted clone, it was the one seemingly about Boba Fett. It was being developed by LucasArts until the studio was shut down by Disney and the project canceled several years back.

The Uncharted clone is the one that was being worked on by Visceral Games and led by Amy Hennig. Visceral was shut down by EA this year, and though they claim that the project was not canceled, whatever we see of it will likely be radically different than what they were describing this as originally.
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OK one thing that has always bugged me about Star Wars, especially since the prequels.

The look of the Jedi throughout the series, and their attire, is heavily based on Obi-Wan's outfit in A New Hope.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fb/d9/53/fbd953a4dfa7379e4fed09203b4eeca4.jpg

But in that movie, his attire was meant to look like traditional Tatooine garb. We see Uncle Owen wearing basically the same thing.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/66/Owen_Luke.jpg

Now, the trouble started right away when Empire dressed Yoda in his own version of the same outfit.

http://media.comicbook.com/2017/09/yoda-the-empire-strikes-back-star-wars-1019578-1280x0.jpg

You could KIND OF stretch it and say this look is just like... generic hermit? Which is a little weird for what seems to be a reasonably well-off farmer but who knows, maybe Uncle Owen was more of a crazy hillbilly than he seemed. Then we come to Return of the Jedi...

http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4674/rojclassic1.jpg

Again you could stretch it, because we don't know where Anakin came from at this point. Maybe Owen & Beru were really Luke's uncle & aunt and one of them was Anakin's sibling and they were all from Tatooine and Yoda is the odd one out. And heck, maybe HE was from Tatooine at some point in his 900 years, we don't know anything about him!

But then the prequels just go all in with this look as Traditional Jedi Garb.

http://www.theandrewblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/spcr1.jpeg

So now we not only have Ben Kenobi, the Jedi-in-hiding who wears traditional Jedi clothing at all times and also whips out his lightsaber in public like it's nothing, but we also have Owen Lars, the moisture farmer who lives his life in Jedi cosplay. WTF???
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They marketed themselves into a corner with the Tatooine garb

That being said, Luke had his own very different Jedi outfit

Or they just explain it with this which is kinda cheap imo

It has long been hypothesized that the first known Jedi came from Tatooine, and as such, wore loosely fitting robes made of low quality fabric

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CoolCly posted...

All of those rebel tactics for surviving the chase were what made this feel like Rogue One. Rogue One is an interesting story that tells it's own one off story within the Star Wars universe. This random set of characters has a problem that they gotta deal with and they deal with it. This whole rebel cruiser story felt a lot like that. It didn't really feel like "main star wars storyline" material. It was a neat setting but I didn't really understand why they put us here.

This. This is it. This is my problem with the movie but I was unsure of how to put it into words. It just made the movie feel "small" and you can tell by the fact that they put in all that casino stuff imo.
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foolm0r0n posted...

That being said, Luke had his own very different Jedi outfit

Eh during the Jabba's Palace sequence it's very similar to what Anakin wore in Revenge of the Sith.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/bc/5f/4c/bc5f4c148260d77903aa4e62d9f68b39--luke-skywalker-costume-luke-skywalker-jedi.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/82/eb/0f/82eb0f0b241b75acb85b3993481d922b--family-costumes-movie-costumes.jpg

It's cut shorter and wool instead of leather but still, a similar look. It's only later he removes some of the outer layers and it looks different.

http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/EPVI_Luke_Am_A_Jedi-1088x662.jpg
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So random thought I've been meaning to post about but kept forgetting... In TFA, Kylo gets visibly excited/upset when they first mention that a girl on Jakku has the map. Then for the rest of the movie up until he meets Rey, he reacts the same way every time she's brought up. He finally meets her but doesn't really have any kind of reaction that you'd expect based on how he had been when getting reports about her. It just kind of ends there. So did he know about her because of force shenanigans, or was it more teasing of a past or connection that Rian fucked up? Or did JJ himself forget about it? Or am I missing something?

Oh! But then there's the the very end of the Battlefront 2 campaign where Kylo is shown specifically looking for a girl(I think even on Jakku?) that makes it all the more confusing!
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MrGreenonion posted...

Eh during the Jabba's Palace sequence it's very similar to what Anakin wore in Revenge of the Sith.

Well Anakin's is different from the robes too
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Waluigi1 posted...

So did he know about her because of force shenanigans, or was it more teasing of a past or connection that Rian fucked up? Or did JJ himself forget about it? Or am I missing something?

I think there were tons of seeds intentionally planted in TFA specifically for the next director to have material to work with. Rian seems to have ditched most of those but they might come back in 9.

Kylo's reaction to "the girl from Jakku" and the backstory of her parents ditching her on Jakku after Kylo's massacre is what made me think her parents were from the academy (still nobodies). I kinda wish they went with that, but 8 was all about Rey connecting with Kylo so it would've been redundant.
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God damn! Even better the second time. The cinema was bigger and louder and I got the score a bit more, was able to really feel it

The music when Luke steps out to face the first order is absolutely incredible. Music generally was great but particularly there
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Someone explain how Leia and Roses sister can survive in the vacuum of space.
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The FORCE
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Rose's sister wasn't in vacuum

Leia has The Force.
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Also I missed 3PO saying "to 1" when Poe shut him up

Had me laughing
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SwiftyDC posted...

Someone explain how Leia and Roses sister can survive in the vacuum of space.

Humans can survive in vacuum for at least the better part of a minute, contrary to what Itchy and Scratchy taught us.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHb9T6WvvW0
2:15 on

I knew exactly what was going to happen and it was still so fucking cool and the music was such a big part of that

I love John Williams man. Zimmer can bow down.
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CoolCly posted...

I find it strange people are so down on Luke. He's the best part of the movie IMO.

Seems like people are super hung up on the idea he'd try to kill a sleeping child and that the very idea is super out of character for Luke. And sure, maybe if you want to frame things like that you can convince yourself this is true... but it's not true. Anybody can be capable of anything if pushed into the right circumstances.

Let's imagine what happened that night.

Luke has been training Ben Solo and a bunch of other students for a while. But he's noticed Ben is a bit too aggressive than normal. He's vicious in training. He has explosive bouts of anger. He often goes too far when practicing forms and destroys things, like how Rey destroyed that one stone outcropping on the island by accident. Maybe Luke is also aware of some kind of contact Snoke has had with Ben in the past.

So he decides to touch his mind while he's sleeping with the force and see what Ben's true feelings are and if he's intentionally creeping towards the dark side. So Luke comes to Ben when he's sleeping and mind melds or some shit. When he does this, he senses the overwhelming evil Ben is capable of. it's terrifying. He can see that not only is Kylo Ren capable of mass murder, but also the murder of those around him. Not only is he capable of this, but he WANTS to do it. Out of pure horror and instinct, he feels that this darkness has to be stopped before it can do any of those things.

Then looks down at his hand and see he's drawn and activated his lightsabre. He's even more horrified at what was about to do than even what he saw in Ben's mind. So he turns off the lightsabre and leaves, resolving to find a way to save Ben from himself.

To me, this entire sequence seems COMPLETELY believable and within Luke's character. He's always been quick to fight when called for, but reflective of the implications of what he does. Honestly, this is definitively Luke.

The hiccup in this scene comes when Ben wakes up and sees Luke looking down in horror on his activated lightsabre. There's not really any other way to interpret that other than Luke is about to kill him in his sleep so he reacts appropriately and developes a burning hatred for Luke, the master who betrayed him.

And what can Luke do to convince him otherwise? He really did have a moment of reactionary weakness where he did want to kill Ben. "Oops, sorry, I was gonna kill you but I changed my mind." How can he explain this to Ben, or to Leia, or to Han? How can he even justify this to himself?

Luke is a good guy. He's an astonishingly good guy. And he had a very brief but understandable moment where he felt like killing Kylo Ren was the best thing to do. And he's deeply ashamed of it. Now he sees HIMSELF as the monster. Of course he does. He's a good guy. Good guys dont kill kids. So he must be a pretty bad fucking guy. The universe is better off without him.

So that's why he lives in exile. That's why he does everything he does in the movie.

And it's awesome.

It's really weird to see the same people complaining about Luke as the same who say this movie played it safe or took no risks. Yeah, apparently having Luke briefly consider killing a kid and becoming a bitter old man due to it is both playing it safe and completely out of character for OT Luke.

Also I'd like to applaud this terrific post as laying out exactly why Luke was so great in this movie and why it's such a triumph overall

I would have loved to have seen Luke wreck shit but in an era of easy and constant fanservice I'm glad they did something different that served story and character in a far more interesting way.
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Yeah Luke was perfect

And John Williams is the truest hero of Star Wars. Followed by R2-D2.
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I liked this portrayal of Luke a lot. Was he perfect? Far from it, but his flaws made him a far more interesting character. And deep down he was still that same old cocky kid, he just grew old and cynical.
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