Current Events > Forbes: The Last Jedi collapsing at the box office

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/22/last-jedi-daily-grosses-are-swiftly-collapsing-the-worst-holds-of-all-9-star-wars-movies/amp/

The fan revolt is real folks. The Last Jedi is holding worse than any other Star Wars film before it, is drastically underperforming overseas and is currently on track to barely beat out Rogue One.

Although it's obviously still going to make a lot of money, it's going to suffer a massive loss from The Force Awakens and execs are worried what it could mean for the future of the Star Wars brand.
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Shame

While flawed, it was still good
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refmon posted...

is currently on track to barely beat out Rogue One.

refmon posted...

it's obviously still going to make a lot of money,

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I liked it, but I also think they shouldn't be switching directors with each movie. Abrams should have done episode 8

Zikten posted...

I liked it, but I also think they shouldn't be switching directors with each movie. Abrams should have done episode 8

He's, at least, coming back for 9. Pretty excited for that.
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Not sure what to think of this, while I don't think it's awful I was definitely disappointed by it and I'm a lot less interested in further installments now
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Kitt posted...

Zikten posted...

I liked it, but I also think they shouldn't be switching directors with each movie. Abrams should have done episode 8

He's, at least, coming back for 9. Pretty excited for that.

They should have either had JJ do the whole thing or have Johnson do 8 AND 9. Going back to JJ after the extreme tone shift of TLJ is not a good idea IMO.

I'm excited for Johnson having his own trilogy though, I feel like he'll work better with near complete creative freedom.
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Kitt posted...

He's, at least, coming back for 9. Pretty excited for that.

really??!?!?!?!?

fuck YES JJ please save Star Wars my man

The fans need to slam this shit tier movie, TLJ is a fucking disgrace to the Star Wars brand.
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I'm glad Disney got the message that we don't want Star Wars to be run by committee, but maybe trusting one of the most beloved franchises in all of cinema history to a guy with like 3 movies under his belt, and not only trusting him to direct but ALSO write, was a bad idea. Especially if said guy has no desire to collaborate with the previous director, nor take his notes into consideration.
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Good. That movie was such a hype killer for any future episodes for me.
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Good
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Offworlder1 posted...

The fans need to slam this shit tier movie, TLJ is a fucking disgrace to the Star Wars brand.

What exactly were your huge issues with the film? (Remember to use spoiler tags)

Don't get me wrong, it absolutely had some flaws, a couple of big ones, but the things I hear people keep bitching about aren't actual flaws. >_>
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WafflehouseJK posted...

but the things I hear people keep bitching about aren't actual flaws. >_>

"If I liked it then it isn't a flaw!"
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UnfairRepresent posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

but the things I hear people keep bitching about aren't actual flaws. >_>

"If I liked it then it isn't a flaw!"

"The story wasn't a mess you just were expecting something else!"
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UnfairRepresent posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

but the things I hear people keep bitching about aren't actual flaws. >_>

"If I liked it then it isn't a flaw!"

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UnfairRepresent posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

but the things I hear people keep bitching about aren't actual flaws. >_>

"If I liked it then it isn't a flaw!"

Unfair, we talked about trolling and completely ignoring the rest of people's posts. You were starting to do so well!
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UnfairRepresent posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

but the things I hear people keep bitching about aren't actual flaws. >_>

"If I liked it then it isn't a flaw!"

like seriously

FrenchCrunch posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

but the things I hear people keep bitching about aren't actual flaws. >_>

"If I liked it then it isn't a flaw!"

like seriously

I literally asked what the complaints were so we could, you know, discuss them. So what were your complaints so they can actually be addressed?
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WafflehouseJK posted...

I literally asked what the complaints were so we could, you know, discuss them. So what were your complaints so they can actually be addressed?

To be fair, you immediately followed up a request for complaints with a preemptive note that the complaints you've already read aren't complaints, so that leaves little confidence that you're willing to consider people's issues.
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WafflehouseJK posted...

FrenchCrunch posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

but the things I hear people keep bitching about aren't actual flaws. >_>

"If I liked it then it isn't a flaw!"

like seriously

I literally asked what the complaints were so we could, you know, discuss them. So what were your complaints so they can actually be addressed?

You also ended your post by saying people's examples aren't really flaws, waving things away with no regard for why a person may consider it a flaw.
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WafflehouseJK posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

but the things I hear people keep bitching about aren't actual flaws. >_>

"If I liked it then it isn't a flaw!"

Unfair, we talked about trolling and completely ignoring the rest of people's posts. You were starting to do so well!

No we didn't.

I talked about how you have no real ability to communicate with people and you responded by calling me a troll and running away.

And you're kinda proving the point here. Instead of going "What's wrong with the movie in your view?" you went "Nothing's wrong with the movie, people are bitching about things that aren't flaw, now then tell me what nonflaw your 'thought' was an issue."

That's not having a discussion it's being obnoxious and straight up telling people that you're close minded and don't really care what they think.

I shouldn't have to explain this to you, nobody should.
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WafflehouseJK posted...

I literally asked what the complaints were so we could, you know, discuss them. So what were your complaints so they can actually be addressed?

pacing, ill-timed humor (and too much of it), nonsensical character decisions, too many fake-outs, drawn out

The film did have a lot of flaws. I can see why most people would feel deflated by it.

Pretty much nothing mattered until the very end. Yeah they established "the rebellion is back" but thats only because, in a meta sense, they're recycling the same conflict from the originals. And "fight to save what we love" was a good line, but we dont know what we love. The Republic got nuked after 10 seconds of screen time and all the characters we love are being phased out.

I still liked it. But there's no real hook with TLJ. Its basically a side story given a numbered entry. >_>
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Anyone who thinks this movie would kill interest in future ones has obviously never seen the prequel trilogy.
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i'm not even walking around claiming it was bad or telling people not to like it

i know i came out of it disappointed. crushed, even, and those were some of the reasons why

they killed off the last connection to the original and all the nostalgia that drove people to these sequels

I'm probably gonna see it a second time next week, and I can't remember the last time I saw a movie in theaters twice. I was very surprised by it, but ultimately I liked it.
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Nostradumbass posted...

they killed off the last connection to the original and all the nostalgia that drove people to these sequels

But now, they can shape Star Wars into whatever they want and not have to worry about pandering to those pesky fans that have been around for decades.
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jsb0714 posted...

Anyone who thinks this movie would kill interest in future ones has obviously never seen the prequel trilogy.

The Prequels had the promise of Vader's turn. That was the whole reason they exist.

The sequels dont have the legacy of Western medias most popular sci-fi villain to draw people in.
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jsb0714 posted...

Anyone who thinks this movie would kill interest in future ones has obviously never seen the prequel trilogy.

So we will get another movie in 10s when everyone has gotten over bad the new movies are? >_>

That's really not a great argument. The Prequel Trilogy left a bad taste in people's mouths and derailed the brand.

It took another company buying the rights and pushing it for it to come back.
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EverDownward posted...

Nostradumbass posted...

they killed off the last connection to the original and all the nostalgia that drove people to these sequels

But now, they can shape Star Wars into whatever they want and not have to worry about pandering to those pesky fans that have been around for decades.

whats sad is that they could have still done that with better writing and storytelling, but they got lazy.

Nostradumbass posted...

EverDownward posted...

Nostradumbass posted...

they killed off the last connection to the original and all the nostalgia that drove people to these sequels

But now, they can shape Star Wars into whatever they want and not have to worry about pandering to those pesky fans that have been around for decades.

whats sad is that they could have still done that with better writing and storytelling, but they got lazy.

Better writing? Storytelling? What, you expected quality here? This is Star Wars, all you have to do is slap some laser swords on it and you can do whatever you want. It practically prints money!
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WafflehouseJK REKT itt!!!!
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s0nicfan posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

I literally asked what the complaints were so we could, you know, discuss them. So what were your complaints so they can actually be addressed?

To be fair, you immediately followed up a request for complaints with a preemptive note that the complaints you've already read aren't complaints, so that leaves little confidence that you're willing to consider people's issues.

Cause a lot of the complaints are based solely on "I didn't like this particular plot point, so the whole movie is shit!"

Like, that's not what solely makes a film good or bad. >_> So long as the plot point actually makes sense given the context, it's still valid for the integrity of the overall film.

Some plot points that didn't make sense?

Poe literally having an armed mutiny and getting literally no punishment for it other than essentially a slap on the wrist from Leia.

Finn's literally completely pointless plotline, although to be fair, it did give him some desperately needed character development.

Plot points that did make sense but people complain about anyways?
Luke being a cynical, depressed old man who left to die. Luke was always cynical and a bit of a defeatist. That can be seen clearly during his training with Yoda. Everyone points out that he saw and pursued the good in Vader, which while true, remember, he was also dealing with his own emotional issues of it being his long lost father who all his life he'd been told had died a war hero. His mental image of his father was shattered, and he desperately wanted, needed for his father to be good to reassure his faith in himself. It's understandable that after, what, 40 years? He'd become more cynical, particularly with all the pressure of restarting the Jedi Order. He sensed a threat to everything he worked for in Kylo, and had a momentary lapse in judgement that had huge ramifications. None of that is unbelievable. Dealing with his guilt, believing he was to blame for the deaths of all his students, his defeatist attitude returned, so he exiled himself. He left a map to find him out of some remaining sense of responsibility, but did it out of duty, not because he expected or wanted anyone to find him. And by the time someone did find him, he'd been alone long enough that that sense of duty was completely dead, his depression and defeatism having won.

For all the flaws the film had, Luke wasn't one of them. People expected him to be a cookie cutter cutout of what he was at the end of Return of the Jedi, and that's not how that works. Literally 40ish years passed, and people change over time, and as I said above, those character traits were always a part of his character, they just grew as he aged, which is completely believable.
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You all knew what you were getting in to when Disney bought the rights to the series and if you didn't, you're a fool.
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Yea, we're just not going to agree on that. Mark Hamill doesn't agree on that, either. I'll take his side on this one.
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FrenchCrunch posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

I literally asked what the complaints were so we could, you know, discuss them. So what were your complaints so they can actually be addressed?

pacing, ill-timed humor (and too much of it), nonsensical character decisions, too many fake-outs, drawn out

I agree that the humor was unneeded and dramatically differed from the rest of the tone of the film. I didn't personally mind the pacing and fake-outs, but that's subjective, so fair enough.

What nonsensical character decisions are you referring to? The only one's I can think of revolve Holdo and possibly Leia.
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Maybe it's due to Star Wars being a yearly thing. Over saturation is a thing.
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AlisLandale posted...

The film did have a lot of flaws. I can see why most people would feel deflated by it.

Pretty much nothing mattered until the very end. Yeah they established "the rebellion is back" but thats only because, in a meta sense, they're recycling the same conflict from the originals. And "fight to save what we love" was a good line, but we dont know what we love. The Republic got nuked after 10 seconds of screen time and all the characters we love are being phased out.

I still liked it. But there's no real hook with TLJ. Its basically a side story given a numbered entry. >_>

That's fair. It definitely felt like "Character Development: The Movie", and that's all fine and good, but you still need legitimate plot points to carry people's interest into the next film, and there's only so many questions they've left unanswered that people give a shit about.
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But...but...people cheated the audience score!
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I like the movie but I share some of the issues other people have.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the plot of the story and the OT characters as I do with the way the story is being told.

What you see regarding Luke is the opposite of what his character got built up to in the OT. I can totally believe that his character and attitude might change over time or based on events, but the story doesn't really do a good job of portraying any of that. At least in my opinion.

s0nicfan posted...

Yea, we're just not going to agree on that. Mark Hamill doesn't agree on that, either. I'll take his side on this one.

To each their own, but I heavily disagree. It personally feels to me more like people just didn't like the direction they took his character, which is totally and completely fine, but saying "it doesn't make sense." isn't accurate. They absolutely could have kept him positive and have him be the wise old master people wanted him to be, that also could have made sense. But so does him being cynical and defeatist 40 years later, as I explained in the post.
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WafflehouseJK posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Yea, we're just not going to agree on that. Mark Hamill doesn't agree on that, either. I'll take his side on this one.

To each their own, but I heavily disagree. It personally feels to me more like people just didn't like the direction they took his character, which is totally and completely fine, but saying "it doesn't make sense." isn't accurate. They absolutely could have kept him positive and have him be the wise old master people wanted him to be, that also could have made sense. But so does him being cynical and defeatist 40 years later, as I explained in the post.

It makes sense that a person in Luke's shoes could become cynical and defeatist. It doesn't make sense for LUKE to become that. Rian Johnson took no notes from Lucas, ignored Abrams' guidance, didn't give a shit about Hamill's input, and only has 3 movies under his belt. When your story explicitly ignores all the input from the original creators and actors and goes in the exact opposite direction, that's just not good writing.

Again... Hamill has been Luke for 30 years and he "fundamentally disagrees with virtually everything you've decided about Luke". No-name amateur director Rian Johnson just made shit up and it shows. You can like those scenes all you want, but it betrays the character.
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Not sure why the movie has so many defenders on CE.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

but the things I hear people keep bitching about aren't actual flaws. >_>

"If I liked it then it isn't a flaw!"

Unfair, we talked about trolling and completely ignoring the rest of people's posts. You were starting to do so well!

No we didn't.

I talked about how you have no real ability to communicate with people and you responded by calling me a troll and running away.

And you're kinda proving the point here. Instead of going "What's wrong with the movie in your view?" you went "Nothing's wrong with the movie, people are bitching about things that aren't flaw, now then tell me what nonflaw your 'thought' was an issue."

That's not having a discussion it's being obnoxious and straight up telling people that you're close minded and don't really care what they think.

I shouldn't have to explain this to you, nobody should.

Um, nope, that's not what happened at all. I told you you need to learn how to actually have a conversation with people without actively insulting them, which you do.

Yes, I said I consider most of the things people have said to not be actual flaws. And I don't. But I'm still going to listen to what they have to say and let them explain their side, cause, y'know, that's how disagreements work. Also, never said nothing was wrong with the movie, I prefaced the entire statement with "Yeah, it has flaws." CE just tends to jump the gun on a LOT of things, but so far everyone in this topic who has actually talked about it has been perfectly reasonable except you.
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WafflehouseJK posted...

but so far everyone in this topic who has actually talked about it has been perfectly reasonable except you.

lolwut?

Like half the people you have talked to in this topic have just directly quoted me and agreed with me.

Jesus christ. Says it all there.
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s0nicfan posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Yea, we're just not going to agree on that. Mark Hamill doesn't agree on that, either. I'll take his side on this one.

To each their own, but I heavily disagree. It personally feels to me more like people just didn't like the direction they took his character, which is totally and completely fine, but saying "it doesn't make sense." isn't accurate. They absolutely could have kept him positive and have him be the wise old master people wanted him to be, that also could have made sense. But so does him being cynical and defeatist 40 years later, as I explained in the post.

It makes sense that a person in Luke's shoes could become cynical and defeatist. It doesn't make sense for LUKE to become that. Rian Johnson took no notes from Lucas, ignored Abrams' guidance, didn't give a shit about Hamill's input, and only has 3 movies under his belt. When your story explicitly ignores all the input from the original creators and actors and goes in the exact opposite direction, that's just not good writing.

Again... Hamill has been Luke for 30 years and he "fundamentally disagrees with virtually everything you've decided about Luke". No-name amateur director Rian Johnson just made shit up and it shows. You can like those scenes all you want, but it betrays the character.

Where has JJ said that Johnson ignored him? It's completely possible I missed something, but everything I've seen said that JJ had notes but ultimately supported Johnson.

People wanted Luke to continue being a paragon, but Johnson decided to bring his flaws more to the forefront. I get why people would dislike that, but it's believable, and in my personal opinion, good character development. Personally I think it's more respectful to the character to bring those flaws to the surface and not glance over their existence, but I get not liking those decisions.

I also get where Hamill is coming from, but again, that's still his personal opinion on where the character should go, and while Johnson definitely should have listened to what he had to say, at the end of the day it was still his decision.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

WafflehouseJK posted...

but so far everyone in this topic who has actually talked about it has been perfectly reasonable except you.

lolwut?

Like half the people you have talked to in this topic have just directly quoted me and agreed with me.

Jesus christ. Says it all there.

"who has actually talked about it", y'know, like s0nicfan and even FrenchCrunch actually started talking about his flaws instead of just throwing a fit.

Reading comprehension, friend.
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Kitt posted...

Zikten posted...

I liked it, but I also think they shouldn't be switching directors with each movie. Abrams should have done episode 8

He's, at least, coming back for 9. Pretty excited for that.

Abrams sucked too. In fact I felt he was the worse director. TLJ just had some issues with writing and some really bad plot points. But at least it attempted to have its own story instead of rebooting ANH.
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