Board 8 > Star Wars: The Last Jedi spoiler thread 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

foolm0r0n posted...

The theme of actively eliminating the past that is holding you back is by far the best thing about the movie, so this shouldn't be a complaint. It just means you didn't understand the movie, which I guess is clear when people complain about Rey's non-parents and Snoke dying midway and how it sucked that everyone kept failing. I guess the movie repeating the theme 4 times and then having Yoda come out to explicitly lecture you about the theme wasn't enough for some people.

Yeah I've noticed many times how subtlety is just straight up lost on a lot of people.

And it's not even that subtle. Same thing with the Kylo vs Rey argument, there were reasons Kylo lost but everyone ignored those reasons.
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AquaArcane posted...

I thought it made perfect sense. He's just as arrogant as any other dark side character and that ultimately leads to his demise.

He's arrogant but also a godlike mind reader... and was tricked so easily.

His dialogue was also terrible during that part. It was such blatant double entendre, it felt like draft dialogue and made it so obvious that Kylo was going to kill Snoke which reduced the impact. Like when he killed Han, the writing and timing was so badass and added to the impact a lot... here it was the opposite.

Not that it should've been as dramatic as Han's death. I realize that Snoke unceremoniously dying halways through the movie is the point of the twist, but this was TOO ceremonious and tried to be too clever. Should've just been a quick surprise kill.
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you know I think this might actually be a great Star Wars movie because we can debate about it so much

With the originals all you really had was Return which was like still good with some complaints people had

Then everyone hated the prequels except Revenge which was like still awful with some good points people brought up

Now you have this movie which is equal parts fantastic and embarrassing which is kind of a pleasant surprise

I think in like 20 years people will remember it as being pretty good but a little flawed tho, I don't think public perception for TLJ will ever be "that movie is terrible"
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dVwMOtQE2E

This scene single handedly made me watch the movie 2 more times. So damn good. "Will you help me" - THAT's good double entendre. Not "and now he will strike down his TRUE ENEMY LOL GET IT???? ;))))"
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Well it was obvious Han was walking to his death once he stepped onto that catwalk. I still loved the scene, just as I loved the scene with Snoke.
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ZenOfThunder posted...

you know I think this might actually be a great Star Wars movie because we can debate about it so much

No everyone is still just arguing about the hate
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Also, they should've switched Rose with her much more attractive sister. Come on, Disney. I now understand why Fin was pissed off, should've let him sacrifice his life to spark the flames of rebellion instead.

Nobody came to help the Rebels except Luke. That was interesting. But he didn't really come so wtf.
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I don't think The Last Jedi blew up Star Wars conventions as much as people seem to think. Like it's still MOSTLY built out of the same pieces. The focal point of the movie, the throne room stuff with Rey, Kylo, and Snoke, had elements of Vader & Luke in Empire, Vader & Luke in Jedi, but also Anakin & Obi-Wan in the PT. Like first they do the Vader/Luke/Emperor RotJ stuff, but then they have to fight off the Praetorian Guards and it becomes like Anakin & Obi-Wan where they're a team but then Kylo once and for all turns Dark Side, and then they do Vader/Luke from Empire where he tried to get Luke to join him. And there's other stuff like that throughout the movie, like when Benicio del Toro proves that not all scoundrels have hearts of gold, or how the Resistance's basic plot is essentially the Rebels' plot from Empire in reverse, where they get chased to the fortified base with trenches out front and try to fight off walkers in little speeders, instead of getting chased away from such a place.

The whole movie is built out of classic Star Wars tropes but they're put together backwards and every pivotal moment goes the other way.
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foolm0r0n posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dVwMOtQE2E

This scene single handedly made me watch the movie 2 more times. So damn good. "Will you help me" - THAT's good double entendre. Not "and now he will strike down his TRUE ENEMY LOL GET IT???? ;))))"

Yeah, watching this scene again reminds me of why I have 7 over 8 pretty decisively. I don't think there's any scene in 8 that matches this for me.

Yeah the Han/Kylo Ren scene had the most emotional punch of any scene in the entire series.

The hand on the face at the end is what really got me.
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Just saw it.

Didnt like Lukes death, didnt like the jokey humor at the beginning where Hux falls for Poes distraction, didnt like how much of a retread it was. Still an okay movie. I did like Snokes death.
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I didn't really like alot of the humor that was in this movie. The only scene where I found funny that I remember was when Rey's eyes were closed and trying to reach for the Force and Luke trolled her. That was gold.
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Luke was the funniest character, porgs were not funny. The rest of the humor was alright with me.
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I would say 100% of the humor fell flat in this one, except for maybe the Maz and casino stuff

I remember there was one scene where a whole room got blown up with tons of people instantly dead and BB8 bounced out with some cute little physical comedy... pretty bad mix in tone
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really didn't like the Hux joke at the beginning

didn't like the Chewbacca Porg Eating joke, mainly because Chewbacca was relegated to Porg duty the whole movie.

The only reason Chewbacca doesn't do anything is because his toys notoriously sell like shit, so they pull away any focus on him and also give him Porgs to play with in some funny scenes for babies. If you go to the toy section of your local Target you'll see all the Chewbacca toys now come with Porgs. Disney gotta make that $$$$$$
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Luke was a lot less like how he was in the OT and much more similar to some of Hamill's other roles.

Like, if this was the Luke Skywalker we always knew, I don't think anybody would've been all that shocked to find out he was The Joker.
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That's another thing! Why didn't we get any more interaction between Chewy and Luke? Wow...
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Yoda was hilarious too, I love his prankster ways
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Yoda's scene was amazing. One of the best scenes in the movie, we now know that Force Ghost can do something, which gives me hope for Luke making an appearance in IX.
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Yoda was great, happy they made him a puppet. It looked good.
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SwiftyDC posted...

That's another thing! Why didn't we get any more interaction between Chewy and Luke? Wow...

Here's a small thing I was wondering about; how did Chewy manage to surprise Luke by being there? Luke didn't know?

Luke shut himself off from the Force (which I guess means maybe he has a valve on the back of his head like the Valve logo guy) so he couldn't sense Chewy or anyone was there

I actually don't have any complaints about that
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What, you mean like why Luke didn't sense him? Or he should've seen the Millennium Falcon coming and should've assumed Chewie was on it?
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Chewie didn't make the climb with Rey, so Luke didn't know he was there until Chewie broke the door down.
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I mean that he should've sensed him. I mean maybe sensing people with the force isn't that easy but I was sort of surprised that Luke was caught that off guard by Chewie.

It's pretty heavily implied that Luke's cut himself off from the Force completely to the point that he no longer uses it.
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It's also ironic that this film spends so much time talking about doing away with the old only to recycle a ton of stuff from the OT.
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He cut himself off from the Force, so he couldn't feel Chewie's presence.

Plus I always thought you had to concentrate to feel someone through the Force. Or if it was a threat then your senses would kick in, but if Luke was being lazy and Chewie wasn't posing any threat then it's likely he just wouldn't have known he was there. That's my interpretation at least.
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Man I really wanted to like this one but I'm just nonplussed. The new characters felt like they barely developed, the feature-length chase sequence was about as monotonous as OJ's Bronco being cautiously followed down the 405, the humor/quips nearly dipped to Prequel levels ("Chrome dome?" Yo Momma jokes?). At least we got that goofy Monte Carlo interlude so Disney of all companies could remind us how bad corporate greed is

LeonhartFour posted...

It's pretty heavily implied that Luke's cut himself off from the Force completely to the point that he no longer uses it.

Rey explicitly states it.
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Well, I don't think sensing people with the Force is automatic. Like in RotJ, Vader senses that Luke is on Endor, but the Emperor doesn't.
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AquaArcane posted...

He cut himself off from the Force, so he couldn't feel Chewie's presence.

Plus I always thought you had to concentrate to feel someone through the Force. Or if it was a threat then your senses would kick in, but if Luke was being lazy and Chewie wasn't posing any threat then it's likely he just wouldn't have known he was there. That's my interpretation at least.

That theory is thrown out because Luke has a few scenes where he is connected to Leia, though that might just be a "twin thing" and not the Force, so... Made it seem like the brother-sister connection was similar to what was going on with Rey-Ren, but that was just to trick us.
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Which scenes are you referring to about Luke and Leia being connected? I can't remember very well but were either of them reaching out with the Force? Chewie wasn't trying to get Luke's attention, nor were emotions high on the island at the moment, so Luke had no reason to sense Chewie. The interactions I remember between Luke and Leia, one or both were very clearly concentrating.
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Okay I can accept the Luke/Chewie explanations

I do agree that it would have been nice if Chewbacca and Luke had a little bit more. Even if it was just as simple as Chewie roaring something and Luke going 'yeah yeah, Chewie, I know'

I got the impression that he completely cut himself off from the Force so he wouldn't be concentrating on Leia at all.
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ZenOfThunder posted...

Yoda was great, happy they made him a puppet. It looked good.

Apparently they made him using the original molds from Empire, so he would look exactly the same. I'm sure the puppet underneath was more advanced, of course.
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Alright I took a shower and thought about Holdo the whole time (not in that way)(also I work weird hours so I do occasionally shower at 2am)

Here's how to fix the Holdo/Poe arc:

1) In the beginning when Poe is doing his bombing run, have Holdo be the one in charge of the bombing fleet, and have her be the one to order Poe to turn back before Leia does. Have him ignore her and then show her contempt for his disobedience.

2) When it's announced that Holdo is taking over for Leia, show a look of terror on Poe's face. After the speech (which was a good speech, keep it) have Poe go over and make a half-assed, hammy apology, after which he launches into all his ideas. The rest of the scene can play out the same way as the real movie.

3) When Poe asks Holdo what the plan is, she tells him that she won't be disclosing it to him, because even though they believe the First Order has a way to track through Warp, it may be a bluff and there could be a traitor among them. When Poe argues, she could say that if he is loyal to the rebellion and Leia, then he should follow her orders. He continues to argue, and she brings up the bombing run, and how it could be argued that he is a traitor.

4) Add a scene where Poe talks to that girl on the bridge, trying to get her to switch sides. Have her say that she has heard Holdo's plan and that it is a good plan. She also won't tell Poe as she is under orders not to. Poe storms off.

5) When Poe comes to the bridge again, he tries to mutiny right there, but he has less support because the plan has been disclosed to key people and trust has been built. Poe immediately learns he is not as charismatic as he thinks and that his hotheaded methods don't always yield results. His friend on the bridge is the one to knock him out.

6) Poe is in the brig (like he should be; he committed a mutiny). Holdo visits him and Poe tells her about the mission he sent Finn on. She then reveals the plan to him and he concedes it is a good plan. She reiterates why she didn't tell him the plan and Poe realizes sometimes he needs to trust in the chain of command. He is let out of the brig and the movie continues on as normal.

7) When the ship is evacuating Poe follows all of Holdo's commands and catches himself when he's about to argue. He helps load up the ships and shows he is a more level-headed leader with a respect for command. Holdo smiles at him and then has her scene with Leia where she says that she likes him. Makes more sense in this context.

By doing this Holdo is shown to be a stronger leader and the lesson Poe learns comes across as less hamfisted.

I did some reading on Holdo and apparently she is a secretive weirdo but I don't think that was conveyed well in the film at all. I think my additions fix that a bit.

You're welcome Rian Johnson
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You're such a good writer zen keep it up
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Thank you, for my next trick I will fix Rian Johnson's name

"Ryan Johnson"
-ZenOfThunder, 2017

please hold your applause
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I think a lot of that was there in subtext, but it was kept subtext and never brought to the fore properly. Honestly I think all they needed to do was when Poe is talking to Holdo about what her plan is, she should echo his words to Finn & Rose and tell him that it's need-to-know, and he doesn't need to know. I think that right there would get the point across that the distrust is fully mutual, which is all you really need.
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Honestly just a throwaway line with Holdo saying "I don't trust you Poe" would have been enough for me, but you really don't get anything like that, she kind of just ignores him the whole time and comes off as a bit of an unrelatable bitch

You don't even need my rewrite to make it work I just think my way would make it super obvious to Poe that he was the one that messed up and if he had just followed orders Finn and Rose wouldn't have been in a dangerous situation and Benecio Del Toro wouldn't have been there to leak Holdo's plan to the First Order. It could set him up really well in the next film for even more development where he tries to atone.
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Holdo is not a big deal at all. All you have to do is add a throwaway line about the Resistance thinking there must be a spy on board (which seemed pretty implicit to me with them being skeptical about hyperspace tracking). I hate the "drama because simple misunderstanding" trope but this is a military situation and Holdo has no obligation to disclose the plan to Poe just because he's a main character.
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Okay so there's like one thing that really irritated me.

I think they're kind of leaning on a feminist thing here with Holdo, and I'm totally cool with that. I'm also cool if they decide not to play that angle. It's not something that bothers me one way or the other as long as you stick to whatever you decide to make her character.

But it really bugged me where they had Holdo taking charge over Poe, but then when he's being loaded onto the transport, she says "I kind of like him" with a smile, as if she's already forgotten her problems with him. Yeah, she knew she was about to self-sacrifice, so maybe that granted her some perspective in that moment, but it kind of makes her feel less like a strong, assertive female character to have her fawning over Poe in that moment without seeming even a little concerned about him. Again, I don't care that she has the hots for Poe but it felt really at odds with the notion of playing a feminist angle the way she delivered that moment. It just kind of stripped away any aura they were trying (and failing) to give her without any real explanation.

Her sacrifice was cool though. No problems there.

...I don't think the implication was that she was attracted to him considering Leia agreed with her.
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ZenOfThunder posted...

Alright I took a shower and thought about Holdo the whole time (not in that way)(also I work weird hours so I do occasionally shower at 2am)

Here's how to fix the Holdo/Poe arc:

1) In the beginning when Poe is doing his bombing run, have Holdo be the one in charge of the bombing fleet, and have her be the one to order Poe to turn back before Leia does. Have him ignore her and then show her contempt for his disobedience.

2) When it's announced that Holdo is taking over for Leia, show a look of terror on Poe's face. After he speech (which was a good speech, keep it) have Poe go over and make a half-assed, hammy apology, after which he launches into all his ideas. The rest of the scene can play out the same way as the real movie.

3) When Poe asks Holdo what the plan is, she tells him that she won't be disclosing i to himt, because even though they believe the First Order has a way to track through Warp, it may be a bluff and there could be a traitor among them. When Poe argues, she could say that if he is loyal to the rebellion and Leia, then he should follow her orders. He continues to argue, and she brings up the bombing run, and how it could be argued that he is a traitor.

4) Add a scene where Poe talks to that girl on the bridge, trying to get her to switch sides. Have her say that she has heard Holdo's plan and that it is a good plan. She also won't tell Poe as she is under orders not to. Poe storms off.

5) When Poe comes to the bridge again, he tries to mutiny right there, but he has less support because the plan has been disclosed to key people and trust has been built. Poe immediately learns he is not as charismatic as he thinks and that his hotheaded methods don't always yield results. His friend on the bridge is the one to knock him out.

6) Poe is in the brig (like he should be; he committed a mutiny). Holdo visits him and Poe tells her about the mission he sent Finn on. She then reveals the plan to him and he concedes it is a good plan. She reiterates why she didn't tell him the plan and Poe realizes sometimes he needs to trust in the chain of command. He is let out of the brig and the movie continues on as normal.

7) When the ship is evacuating Poe follows all of Holdo's commands and catches himself when he's about to argue. He helps load up the ships and shows he is a more level-headed leader with a respect for command. Holdo smiles at him and then has her scene with Leia where she says that she likes him. Makes more sense in this context.

By doing this Holdo is shown to be a stronger leader and the lesson Poe learns comes across as less hamfisted.

I did some reading on Holdo and apparently she is a secretive weirdo but I don't think that was conveyed well in the film at all. I think my additions fix that a bit.

You're welcome Rian Johnson

That would seriously be a massive improvement.
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No, you don't understand. Women in movies can't say they like men or smile at them without it being romantic. That's why Rey/Poe is totally a thing too because of a five second interaction at the end of the movie!
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I took that as more "Oh so this is what it's like to do something incredibly stupid for a good cause, I understand you now"
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Like, I think the implication there is that even though they butted heads the whole way, even to the point of mutiny, it wasn't because she disliked him personally or she fundamentally disagreed with what he stood for. She still respected him despite all that.
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LeonhartFour posted...

...I don't think the implication was that she was attracted to him considering Leia agreed with her.

You don't think so? I guess it could have been more like "I like this cocky young pilot's fire, even if he is kind of a problem sometimes" in a more motherly way but either way it just came across weird, like she just did not give a shit that Poe defied her authority. (Although he did so reasonably considering she wasn't willing to explain her plan for... some reason.)

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Holdo is not a big deal at all. All you have to do is add a throwaway line about the Resistance thinking there must be a spy on board (which seemed pretty implicit to me with them being skeptical about hyperspace tracking). I hate the "drama because simple misunderstanding" trope but this is a military situation and Holdo has no obligation to disclose the plan to Poe just because he's a main character.

As you can see in my great re-write all she needs to do is say "I have a plan" and that fixes a lot of the issues. In the movie she just kind of stands there while Poe is having temper tantrums. I'm not asking for her to make a detailed Powerpoint presentation, I'm asking for some basic leadership skills.

Imagine going into work and there's a big project that will affect the profitability of an entire quarter, and your boss holds a meeting and is like "this project is gonna be tough" and when someone asks what the plan is she just yells "NONE OF YOU CAN KNOW THE PLAN" and nothing else, then gives everyone seemingly random assignments and won't answer any follow-up questions. You'd get really frustrated, and rightfully so.

It's not a "minor problem" either because having poor communication between Holdo and Poe has a huge impact on the plot. There would be no Finn/Rose subplot if the communication was better, and if there was it would probably be a lot different.
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