Board 8 > Star Wars: The Last Jedi spoiler thread 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

No, you don't understand. Women in movies can't say they like men or smile at them without it being romantic. That's why Rey/Poe is totally a thing too because of a five second interaction at the end of the movie!

Yeah but I totally thought they were playing up romantic tension here. And it's not like every interaction between a male and female character was like that, there were plenty that were all pretty obviously platonic! But I thought this one was weird.

I don't think Holdo was saying she liked Poe in a romantic way and I would hate it if that was the actual implication. If there's one thing good about her character it is that she's fiercely independent. It just needed to be played in a way where it was more of a positive than a negative.

Also I went on Tumblr and searched "Holdo" and you get a lot of gems like: "we can all collectively agree leia and holdo dated right?" and a lot of posts saying she is "the real hero" so I think she's definitely a hit with that audience
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I dunno. I didn't get that vibe from that scene at all. It was more of a "oh she didn't actually hate him after all" kind of thing to me.
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I like the idea of people being paranoid of the possibility of there being a spy by the way. There didn't even have to actually be one, they just had to be nervous about the possibility. If Holdo didn't want to reveal the plan to Poe because she's worried about leaking it, and Poe starts a mutiny because he thinks Holdo might be sabotaging the mission intentionally, I think that'd have better weight to it than people just being shitty communicators. Or like it would have made more sense if it was totally all Leia holding things together because she's an awesome leader and without her things went to shit because there wasn't someone like Holdo to take over, but they made it pretty clear that everyone thought Holdo was ready to take over the role so that didn't quite make sense either. I dunno, a lot of really interesting ways to handle the fracture in the resistance but they just kind of whiffed on it I think.

ZenOfThunder posted...

I don't think Holdo was saying she liked Poe in a romantic way and I would hate it if that was the actual implication. If there's one thing good about her character it is that she's fiercely independent.

Yeah, that's what I like about her too, so that's why that line just threw me for a bit of a loop. I understand if everyone didn't read it that way though.

I agree with Para

Holdo was definitely a great addition to the cast and a missed opportunity to flesh out both her own character and Poe's. With just a few simple tweaks it could have been one of the strongest subplots in the movie. I think moviegoers would have felt way more emotion watching her die in that really cool way if she was portrayed more positively.
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ZenOfThunder posted...

It's not a "minor problem" either because having poor communication between Holdo and Poe has a huge impact on the plot. There would be no Finn/Rose subplot if the communication was better, and if there was it would probably be a lot different.

But the entire point is to have a hothead pilot character who doesn't deserve to know what the plans are and makes mistakes because of it. They wanted to subvert the trope.

Maybe Holdo needed interaction with non-Poe characters, but she does fine as a leader. Everyone else has faith in her leadership and she ends up handling the mutiny effortlessly. The fact that Poe was able to figure out part of her plan from a visible display screen implies that she WAS telling other people, just not Poe because he got demoted and clearly isn't trustworthy. Stuff like that doesn't necessarily need spelled out. Every single thing Poe does in the movie justifies her not telling him in the first place!
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I get what they were going for but Holdo needed a throw-away line or two about either thinking there was a spy or straight up saying she doesn't trust Poe. She lets him run in and throw tantrums and stuff but she kind of just doesn't do anything about it.

I don't think she told anybody her plan as Poe has that one friend on the bridge who joined him in the mutiny. If she had been discussing the plan that girl would have overheard and told Poe "no don't she actually has a plan and it's good"

My big problem is she never once said to Poe "hey I have a plan," she just told him to shut up and go away. If she had thrown him in the brig I would have respected her more but she did literally nothing which is incredibly frustrating to watch.
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To be clear I was being sarcastic about zen
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uhhh I don't think anyone thinks you were being not-sarcastic
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

ZenOfThunder posted...

It's not a "minor problem" either because having poor communication between Holdo and Poe has a huge impact on the plot. There would be no Finn/Rose subplot if the communication was better, and if there was it would probably be a lot different.

But the entire point is to have a hothead pilot character who doesn't deserve to know what the plans are and makes mistakes because of it. They wanted to subvert the trope.

Maybe Holdo needed interaction with non-Poe characters, but she does fine as a leader. Everyone else has faith in her leadership and she ends up handling the mutiny effortlessly. The fact that Poe was able to figure out part of her plan from a visible display screen implies that she WAS telling other people, just not Poe because he got demoted and clearly isn't trustworthy. Stuff like that doesn't necessarily need spelled out. Every single thing Poe does in the movie justifies her not telling him in the first place!

I think that this is all a completely logical conclusion, but I feel like you're writing your own context in here a little bit. It's not at all clear to me that Holdo's leadership was trusted aside from the scene where she was introduced (which says nothing about whether or not her leadership actually held), it seemed like things were pretty close to being out of control, and it's just not really clear why she chose to handle Poe the way she did.

Honestly I thought at some point that they were trying to set up Holdo as a villain, like I was reading into context clues that she actually was going to betray people, so it was just kind of weird.

This really felt like a series of scenes that would have worked better if I understood where both sides were coming from. Instead they handled the fact that Holdo's plan was actually good like it was a plot twist, which was totally unnecessary. They could have told us everything and the resolution would have been finding out whether Holdo or Poe would take control of the situation - and whether or not their plans would work. But they withheld Holdo's intentions from us for some reason which I think was totally unnecessary given that they turned out to be good.

foolm0r0n posted...

To be clear I was being sarcastic about zen

A sarcastic clock is still right twice a day.
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By the way, as I wrote that I realized that my actual problem is not that Holdo withheld her plans from Poe, it's that Holdo withheld her plans from us. She might have had a good reason for not telling Poe what the deal was, but I don't think there's any good reason for us to not be filled in. Again, I think those scenes are more intriguing when we know what's going on from both sides.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I like the idea of people being paranoid of the possibility of there being a spy by the way.

That is the implication. Especially because there WAS a spy (or rather a guy with no morals) and it DID cause the exact problem that she was trying to avoid.

I think that whole situation does reflect badly on Holdo though. It was largely her fault and that is intentional, because it is to show her failure. The main flaw with her story is that she is too new and undeveloped for us to care about her emotionally.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

I like the idea of people being paranoid of the possibility of there being a spy by the way.

That is the implication. Especially because there WAS a spy (or rather a guy with no morals) and it DID cause the exact problem that she was trying to avoid.

I think that whole situation does reflect badly on Holdo though. It was largely her fault and that is intentional, because it is to show her failure. The main flaw with her story is that she is too new and undeveloped for us to care about her emotionally.

Again though I think that's filling in context on the film's behalf when the story itself was basically silent on what we were supposed to take away from the situation. Unlike a lot of the Rey/Kylo/Luke stuff though this is not something where I want to be left to imagine gaps. I think they needed to show us a little bit more of Holdo to give us a clear picture on what she was trying to do, where it went wrong, and why. As it is I kind of know that Holdo fucked up somewhere but it's not clear what her mistakes were.

alright here's a fun headline that is actually real:

Star Wars: The Last Jedi Offers the Harsh Condemnation of Mansplaining We Need in 2017

An eerily perfect installment for the post-Trump era.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women

So I get what they were going for and I get why it landed with people and I'm not saying it's a bad message, and I think Holdo could have been a great addition (as I've said multiple times)

But the presentation of the subplot was fundamentally flawed and tbqh Holdo did not come off as a likable character. The audience is familiar with Poe and is already on his side, Holdo needed some better dialogue to get the audience thinking her way. The way it is now it's a little sloppy and the message is kind of lost.

Everyone here does bring up some really valid points though and I'm not close-minded enough to never admit I'm wrong but I still don't think that subplot is fine-as-is. It needed a few tweaks and would have been much better presented and would have probably been more well received overall.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

Again though I think that's filling in context on the film's behalf when the story itself was basically silent on what we were supposed to take away from the situation.

It's not really when the context is the same theme that the movie has repeated 5 times with every single character's arc. No reason that Holdo's would be any different.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

I like the idea of people being paranoid of the possibility of there being a spy by the way.

That is the implication. Especially because there WAS a spy (or rather a guy with no morals) and it DID cause the exact problem that she was trying to avoid.

I think that whole situation does reflect badly on Holdo though. It was largely her fault and that is intentional, because it is to show her failure. The main flaw with her story is that she is too new and undeveloped for us to care about her emotionally.

I think it ended up reflecting badly on Holdo because Rian Johnson was so focused on upsetting everyone's expectations. He really wanted to have that big "LOOK! SHE WAS RIGHT! HER PLAN WAS GREAT AND POE DAMERON IS A HOTHEADED FOOL NOT TO TRUST HER! STAR WARS FANS WON'T BE ABLE TO COMPREHEND THIS HOT NEW RIAN JOHNSON PLOT TWIST"

But it comes off as really forced and it's almost like he's rubbing it in your face, all because, like Para said, he had Holdo not only withhold information from Poe, but from the audience as well. If we got to see both POVs it would have worked much better, but there had to be a twist. There were too many twists in this movie just for the sake of having twists.
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My poignant addition to this conversation: Holdo is a really dumb name.
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Nah I'm with you Zen. I think my biggest problem is that I think the scene would have worked better if we were allowed to empathize with Holdo's position more. Like I said, they revealed "hey, Holdo was right!" like it was a plot twist, but instead I think they should have allowed us to realize this more naturally by making her more of a focal point. Maybe there just wasn't enough time in the movie to do it, I don't know.

Just to entertain the notion, if the idea with Holdo really was to condemn the idea of "mansplaining," then they totally fucked it up because they wrote all of those scenes to put us on Poe's side, and they made her seem like... well, to put it bluntly, kind of a bitch, without letting us in on the fact that she really wasn't, whereas we've already seen the non-jerkface side of Poe that he wasn't being in that moment. And then, like I said - having her say "I like him :)" at the end totally sweeps away the notion of condemning Poe at all, which I'm neither in favor of nor against but it doesn't play well with the rest of her character I think.

I'm just going to file the Holdo/Poe stuff under "they didn't have enough time in the movie to flesh this out" I think and leave it at that. The movie's already stretched thin as it is with the Finn/Rose subplot not having nearly enough time to breathe.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I'm just going to file the Holdo/Poe stuff under "they didn't have enough time in the movie to flesh this out" I think and leave it at that. The movie's already stretched thin as it is with the Finn/Rose subplot not having nearly enough time to breathe.

Yeah pretty much this, it's a shame because the movie could have been way more with some stronger B-Plots, I actually really liked all the A-Plot stuff.

Thank you for the continued support Para, one day when I'm writing the Vice Admiral Holdo mini-series for Marvel I'll make sure to thank you and Fool in the credits.
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I don't think it's so much they didn't flesh it out, but the reaction you're having is exactly what they wanted to happen. They never want the audience to trust Holdo, so they set it up that way. It's not that Holdo's a bad character, but you don't like that kind of twist.

I can definitely see the complaint that the movie is TOO concerned with setting up your preconceptions and then knocking them down, but that's what I like about it.
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They couldn't have informed us because then during that whole 40 minute adventure the audience would know it's all a huge waste and wouldn't be able to care. It's still hard to care about that bit, but still.

The more I think about it the more I like Holdo's comeuppance one of the best out of all the arcs. I initially thought that it was weird/lame that Poe had TWO failure arcs in the same movie. But the second failure was really more of Holdo's failure. I think it's interesting to show how failure can be indirect through badly managing other people. Basically Poe's failure is being too emotional/impulsive while Holdo's is not being emotional enough.
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I've been trying to think about what would have made the Finn and Rose B-plot better and I'm just not really sure there's an easy fix because I think my problem with it is pacing. There's just no time to reflect on the finer points of anything they're doing, they're basically just yelling CAPITALISM IS EVIL at a casino as they run by it.

The thing I liked most about TLJ compared to TFA is that the Rey/Luke scenes DID have a lot more room to breathe - they were slower and left a lot more time for reflection and to just kind of take it all in, which is something that TFA struggled with as it was constantly on a roller coaster from one place to another, never stopping to take in the scenery. But the B-plots of TLJ struggled with this even more than TFA did because there just wasn't enough time. I think the Finn and Rose stuff could have made a lovely little adventure movie of its own, but with only those two characters (and I guess BB-8 too) there it felt disconnected from the rest of the movie. It kind of needed to be there to provide a contrast from Rey and Luke but it kind of felt like I was switching between two different films for a while there.

I don't think the point of Holdo's story was to condemn mansplaining or PATRIARCHY or whatever. THAT is inserting context into the movie where there is none. Poe never really mansplains, he just wants to know the plan and to take action. Mutiny is not a good allegory to mansplaining. But it is a good way to show the failure of bad leadership.
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foolm0r0n posted...

They couldn't have informed us because then during that whole 40 minute adventure the audience would know it's all a huge waste and wouldn't be able to care. It's still hard to care about that bit, but still.

The more I think about it the more I like Holdo's comeuppance one of the best out of all the arcs. I initially thought that it was weird/lame that Poe had TWO failure arcs in the same movie. But the second failure was really more of Holdo's failure. I think it's interesting to show how failure can be indirect through badly managing other people. Basically Poe's failure is being too emotional/impulsive while Holdo's is not being emotional enough.

This is a good post, I like this post a lot.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I can definitely see the complaint that the movie is TOO concerned with setting up your preconceptions and then knocking them down, but that's what I like about it.

I really didn't like the Holdo thing but I do really like the Rey's parents twist, the Luke-not-training Rey twist, and the Yoda-blowing-up-the-scriptures twist. The upsetting of expectations is definitely good when used right but I think it being the crutch of the movie is pretty weak. They had enough twists, I think they should have cut back.
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Also speaking of Poe's other failure let's talk about the REAL most unbelievable thing in the movie that I haven't seen anyone else bring up:

Those bombers at the start are the most inefficient shit I've ever seen. They move at like ten miles per hour, no shields and bare minimum defenses, carry explosive ordinance that can detonate not only the entire ship but OTHER ships next to it if they go off (and they will because the ships are sitting ducks), and despite being in space are designed to "drop" bombs onto the target. I suppose in Star Wars every ship has its own localized gravity so I can let the last point slide a bit. But still, fuck those things.
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All these people complaining about multi-threads plots in The Last Jedi

Now I know why Phantom Menace is so unpopular

People can't take multiple story threads at a time.
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I've really enjoyed reading these threads, even if I've only posted in them a couple of times. Honestly the more debate I read and the more I analyze the movie, the more I find myself liking it. I'm definitely going to see it a second time very soon and see where all of my thoughts land.

For how good the discussion has been here, I've heard rumblings that other parts of the internet are just spewing hate pretty much nonstop. Is it really as bad as all that? I don't tend to poke my head in places that get that toxic. >_>
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The Finn and Rose stuff really came off as the writers scrambling to find something for those characters to do that was relevant to the plot. I didn't like the magical "light speed tracking room" that just started existing all of a sudden and turned out to be an actual thing that drove the plot.

Para is right in saying that subplot needed more time. I think this movie should have been longer but I think that's a controversial opinion and I know most people won't feel the same way, and from a money-making standpoint Disney would never add another 20-30 minutes to a movie and miss out on having more showings each day.
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Xiahou Shake posted...

I've really enjoyed reading these threads, even if I've only posted in them a couple of times. Honestly the more debate I read and the more I analyze the movie, the more I find myself liking it. I'm definitely going to see it a second time very soon and see where all of my thoughts land.

For how good the discussion has been here, I've heard rumblings that other parts of the internet are just spewing hate pretty much nonstop. Is it really as bad as all that? I don't tend to poke my head in places that get that toxic. >_>

I actually really enjoy debating here, originally I walked out of the theater thinking it was a 7/10, recently I bumped it down to a 6, but I think speaking with Fool and Para and everyone has had me raise it back up to a 7, maybe an 8, because it's been too long since I enjoyed talking about a movie this much.

And yes, there are people going nuts over this movie. The Star Wars subreddit is a cesspool right now, if you go there and sort by "controversial" you'll see some really crazy things. People are calling it the worst Star Wars ever, worst than Phantom or Clones. I know the movie has flaws but those people are nuts. There's also a petition going around to have Disney remove it from the canon and it's the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Also speaking of Poe's other failure let's talk about the REAL most unbelievable thing in the movie that I haven't seen anyone else bring up:

Those bombers at the start are the most inefficient shit I've ever seen. They move at like ten miles per hour, no shields and bare minimum defenses, carry explosive ordinance that can detonate not only the entire ship but OTHER ships next to it if they go off (and they will because the ships are sitting ducks), and despite being in space are designed to "drop" bombs onto the target. I suppose in Star Wars every ship has its own localized gravity so I can let the last point slide a bit. But still, fuck those things.

Yeah they were totes there for drama but I didn't get why Leia tried calling them back when they were basically there already. They move slow as molasses so calling them back would have probably taken like an hour and the TIE Fighters and super destroyer would have blown them up anyway so you might as well go forward with the plan.
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ZenOfThunder posted...

it's been too long since I enjoyed talking about a movie this much.

This is the big thing for me, too. When I walked out of the theater I honestly didn't know what the fuck to think, but I was pretty sure I wasn't overly hot on the film.

The more I wanted to talk about its shortcomings, though, the more I found myself highlighting what worked really well. And in talking with folks pretty much every day since I saw it I've found I really, REALLY like what this movie did well and it's shortcomings might not be as damning as I felt like they were. Very much looking forward to my second watch now.
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Xiahou Shake posted...

ZenOfThunder posted...

it's been too long since I enjoyed talking about a movie this much.

This is the big thing for me, too. When I walked out of the theater I honestly didn't know what the fuck to think, but I was pretty sure I wasn't overly hot on the film.

The more I wanted to talk about its shortcomings, though, the more I found myself highlighting what worked really well. And in talking with folks pretty much every day since I saw it I've found I really, REALLY like what this movie did well and it's shortcomings might not be as damning as I felt like they were. Very much looking forward to my second watch now.

That's why I like talking about this stuff, honestly! I don't want to come across as too negative about it all.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Also speaking of Poe's other failure let's talk about the REAL most unbelievable thing in the movie that I haven't seen anyone else bring up:

Those bombers at the start are the most inefficient shit I've ever seen. They move at like ten miles per hour, no shields and bare minimum defenses, carry explosive ordinance that can detonate not only the entire ship but OTHER ships next to it if they go off (and they will because the ships are sitting ducks), and despite being in space are designed to "drop" bombs onto the target. I suppose in Star Wars every ship has its own localized gravity so I can let the last point slide a bit. But still, fuck those things.

Oh yeah I did notice this and it annoyed the fuck out of me. It felt like they had to be super slow and vulnerable just in service of the plot but it didn't really make any sense for them to be quite so slow and vulnerable.

yeah dude my roomie went out to see it and I actually couldn't wait for him to come home so we could discuss it. I can't think of any other movie where I've been stoked just to have a conversation about it.

He was way more down on it than me so me defending it made me appreciate it a whole lot more. I still don't think it's a flawless masterpiece and there's a ton that gets me mad but I think it made me appreciate Star Wars more than I originally did
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Another thing that Poe and Holdo failures exemplify is balance, which is parallel to the balance of the Force that Rey learns about. Poe is extremely emotional, and Holdo is extremely mechanical. They failed hard in their own ways. Maybe Leia represents a more balanced emotional/rational approach that is more successful?

Basically all the successes in the movie were acts of balance. Rey is not just a powerful light force jedi, she is extremely balanced. She dived into the dark force and searched it for answers, while still keeping her way. She is not deathly afraid of the dark like Luke and she is much stronger for it. Kylo also shows a balance in helping Rey or following Snoke. The way he killed Snoke was an ultimate act of balance and then the fight with/against Rey also. It's an evil kind of balance, but balance nonetheless. Maybe he was able to confuse Snoke's mindreading because internally he truly was balanced between killing Rey or killing Snoke. A balanced force is also what broke the old lightsaber.

Balance in general is the antithesis to the original trilogy, where everything was literally black and white. So if the movie is trying to subvert the originals, balance would be the way to do it.

That stuff is reading a bit deeper into the story than I think the writers intended but it's plausible. Now I just wish they would take this concept further and have gray jedi in 9.
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Hot take: the Paratroopa1 posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Also speaking of Poe's other failure let's talk about the REAL most unbelievable thing in the movie that I haven't seen anyone else bring up:

Those bombers at the start are the most inefficient shit I've ever seen. They move at like ten miles per hour, no shields and bare minimum defenses, carry explosive ordinance that can detonate not only the entire ship but OTHER ships next to it if they go off (and they will because the ships are sitting ducks), and despite being in space are designed to "drop" bombs onto the target. I suppose in Star Wars every ship has its own localized gravity so I can let the last point slide a bit. But still, fuck those things.

Oh yeah I did notice this and it annoyed the fuck out of me. It felt like they had to be super slow and vulnerable just in service of the plot but it didn't really make any sense for them to be quite so slow and vulnerable.

I learned long ago to just completely turn my brain off when it comes to Star Wars space battles. Anything else leads to madness.
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ZenOfThunder posted...

I actually really enjoy debating here, originally I walked out of the theater thinking it was a 7/10, recently I bumped it down to a 6, but I think speaking with Fool and Para and everyone has had me raise it back up to a 7, maybe an 8, because it's been too long since I enjoyed talking about a movie this much.

tbh I think this movie might be better in message board chats then when watching it... there was too much fluff and writing issues for it to get better on rewatch
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I usually can, but I think that is the only weird space battle thing in the entire series that has actually bothered me.
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See I liked 7 because the instant I walked out I wanted to talk a lot about it, and talking about it in more depth made me like it even more and enjoy all the mysteries and such, and definitely made me want to rewatch it. This movie I didn't really feel like talking about it at all, and discussion doesn't make me want to watch it more. I guess it's just not as "fun" which is fine but 7 was sooo fun,
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NowItsAngeTime posted...

Now I know why Phantom Menace is so unpopular

People can't take multiple story threads at a time.

Also, it sucks.
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foolm0r0n posted...

That stuff is reading a bit deeper into the story than I think the writers intended but it's plausible. Now I just wish they would take this concept further and have gray jedi in 9.

I definitely think all of this is on purpose. You can see the focus on balance in other places, like the only person who remotely comes out ahead in the movie being the codebreaker, who finds his own balance by playing both sides.

The old movies would have either had him come to a heroic rescue after selling Finn/Rose out or they would have shown him getting some kind of retribution for being an opportunistic asshole. Neither happened here - he was called out by the good guys, acknowledges they might be right but they also might not be, then he takes his leave with his money. A fucking Star Wars movie executing a true neutral character that well is probably the last thing I expected to see going in to this.
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also if anyone wants some advice, stay away from any RedLetterMedia thread, forum or community right now. even the Plinkett comment sections

The entire RLM fanbase is divided right now because half of them loved it and the other half think it's worse than the prequels. There's no middle ground. It's a lot of really petty infighting and childing insults

the source of the discontent is that Fandango screwed up Mike and Jay's tickets so they weren't able to see the movie and make their review, and the RLM fanbase is 100% influenced by what Mike and Jay think, and without their opinion they're all lost and trying to choose "the right side" before Mike and Jay reveal what "the right side" is, and it's sad and ridiculous
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Xiahou Shake posted...

like the only person who remotely comes out ahead in the movie being the codebreaker, who finds his own balance by playing both sides.

I was gonna write a paragraph about this in my post and forgot for some reason but yes, he is undoubtedly the winner in all of this and it's 100% attributed to balance
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All that will result in is them intentifoolm0r0n posted...

See I liked 7 because the instant I walked out I wanted to talk a lot about it, and talking about it in more depth made me like it even more and enjoy all the mysteries and such, and definitely made me want to rewatch it. This movie I didn't really feel like talking about it at all, and discussion doesn't make me want to watch it more. I guess it's just not as "fun" which is fine but 7 was sooo fun,

It's the hard opposite for me. I don't ever want to watch VII again, so much of it was so dull and I wanted it to be over, even if my general impression was "fine". VIII I could watch 3 times next week and not mind.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Xiahou Shake posted...

like the only person who remotely comes out ahead in the movie being the codebreaker, who finds his own balance by playing both sides.

I was gonna write a paragraph about this in my post and forgot for some reason but yes, he is undoubtedly the winner in all of this and it's 100% attributed to balance

I think this is a pretty big stretch, his character is not meant to be idealized

I don't think he actually did anything wrong, mind you, because it'd be dumb for him to not sell out these people he doesn't know - but he is not representing "balance" here. He's just a criminal and he's not trustworthy

Another example of true neutral is the rich weapons dealers, who sold weapons to the order and also the rebels
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foolm0r0n posted...

Another example of true neutral is the rich weapons dealers, who sold weapons to the order and also the rebels

Again I get what they were trying to say here (it doesn't take a great philosopher to get the point on this one), but I don't think it's supposed to be displaying the ideals of "balance." If anything, it's like, the dark side of "balance", if that's a real thing. I think it's more a general notion of trying to chip away at the good vs evil narrative that Star Wars has as its foundation (although it still leans on that heavily for the most part).