Board 8 > Hearthstone Discussion Topic: Death Is Eternal, My Turn Is Not!

(+) Yeah! (+)

8-3 is preetttyyy good by the way. Definitely not a disappointing result, even for a good deck in arena. Some good decks get slammed by bad match up/draw and go 4-3 or even 3-3.
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Yeah, 8-3 is always alright in my book. I drafted a shaman last night and was feeling alright about it. Lost my first match because of an extremely depressing 1/5 deadly shot hitting my cobalt scalebane which was behind a 2/6 taunt and I had ancestral spirit in hand for next turn. Just left it at 0-1 and went back to ladder lol.
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I'd do a shot every time Ulti says "skill-based game," except I would be perpetually drunk.

I could argue the point, but I can see he just wants a tagline for every time something goes wrong.
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The more I think about it, how has mind control tech not been addressed at some point? I played a priest and he had to use all 10 mana to mind control my 8/5 giant, which I was then able to make a counter play against. Mind control tech only uses 3 mana so you can play other cards for a huge swing. I know it won't happen every time (my other minions were mostly totems), but it just seems like it should have a limitation. Maybe only take minions with a certain attack or health?
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It has two limitations.
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The 4 minion requirement is a huge difference. Your opponent can have three 12/12s and MCT does nothing. So you can't just play it on demand, and even when you can, it's a random minion. That's basically the reason it's not seen as an issue.
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But the other player is being essentially punished for having a large amount of minions on the board. I am probably just overreacting for one play, but I had full momentum to win that game until the rng took the only card that could have turned things around for him.
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Well, you can call it being punished for playing a lot of minions, but the card has always existed so technically it's just a risk you're signing up for any time you extend beyond three minions. Any board clear "punishes" in the same way.
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Hearthstone is RNG though.

And if the only thing you can lose to is MCT, you don't play a fourth minion.
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This reminds me just how much I enjoyed seeing Brann + MCT go off.
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Nerf list is up.

https://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/21029448/upcoming-balance-changes-update-91-9-12-2017

Innervate down to 1 mana boost

Fiery War Axe up to 3 mana cost

Hex up to 4 mana cost

Murloc Warleader no longer boosts health

Spreading Plague up to 6 mana cost

Ultimate Infestation staying as-is. Ice Block hall of fame discussions acknowledged but they only want to move cards there at the turn of the Hearthstone year.
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Nerfing hex? What? I must have missed all the raging over that one.
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wait no dont nerf my paladin nooo
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Oh so he basically guaranteed ice block will be gone next year. Rip
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spreading aids nerfed thank god even if I don't really think it was enough
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Yeah I'm definitely the most excited about ice block being rotated into the hall of fame. Not sure if the Druid changes actually deal with the problems correctly but I guess we'll see.
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Still prefer the hall of fame route, but...

Fiery War Axe

Now costs 3 mana. (Up from 2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M

I knew in grade school when they played this song constantly for literally any reason I would someday come back to it without hating it.

Also, at least they admitted to considering refreshing mana crystals with Innervate, which after the hall I think was the best route.
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can they make all murlocs have full dust value now please i have a finja to get rid of qq
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Oh now it's """"only"""" a 6 Mana 5/25!

so nerf
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phew
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1/3s break the game now with War Axe nerf

Mana Wyrm will be next card nerfed
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This also reminds me of last year's nerfs where they nerfed a couple Shaman cards but also all of their counters

The Jade Druid package itself is really strong
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That War Axe nerf is brutal. Warrior is already terrible and that just turns the class into a trash can.

I'm glad I was right about Spreading Plague. Druid should lose to aggro. It was the right nerf. A 10 mana card SHOULD be good. Leave Ultimate Infestation alone.

That's such a devastating nerf to Warrior.

Does the class even have anything else it can use as a 2-mana weapon?
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Oh and I made a reddit thread about Warleader. They definitely read those posts.

AND GOOD FUCKING RIDDANCE ICE BLOCK

UltiXX posted...

I'm glad I was right about Spreading Plague. Druid should lose to aggro. It was the right nerf. A 10 mana card SHOULD be good. Leave Ultimate Infestation alone.

I actually fully agree with this. Ultimate Infestation does not bother me all that much. Spreading Plague is infuriating. Compare it to Protect The King. Even AFTER the nerf it costs twice as much but generates 3x as much value. Just, honestly, what the hell. And it can be played when your opponent has NO minions on board, compared to PTK which requires them to have at least one minion.

VeryInsane posted...

1/3s break the game now with War Axe nerf

Mana Wyrm will be next card nerfed

I hope so. Mana Wyrm is another bullshit card.
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Glad to see a murloc nerf. Hate Murlocs being a paladin theme.

Not enough nerfs to Druid. UI at least needed nerfs.
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They nerfed the decks most affected by Plague though. Like Evolve Shaman gets dodged but it's best matchups all got nerfed >_>

I think Secret Mage, Jade Druid, and Highlander Priest become the big decks when this patch lands
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Innervate

-Hurts Aggro Druid way more than Jades (They won't run Fledgling anymore)
-Auctioneer won't be run in Jade Druid (like it is right now LOL)
-Still not terrible (it's just counterfeit coin now)

War Axe
-Kills Control Warrior
-Kills Combo Warrior
-Pirate can kinda linger but its power level goes down for sure
-Allows Northshire and Mana Wyrm to become dominating minions in the meta
-A Mistake

Warleader
-Honestly kinda deserved but I don't think Murlocs are dead. Rockpool and Megasaur are still cards and Aggro Druid and Pirate Warrior got nerfed hard. This is the end of them threatening top tier though.

Hex

-Would have made sense a year ago, less so now but this puts it on par with Polymorph at least

Spreading Plague

-Probably should have been nerfed for sure but when 3 decks this was tech'd for were nerfed, who needs it?
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Not sure how I feel about the changes to be honest. The Warleader and Plague nerfs seem fine, but the other ones seem incredibly lazy considering how they're basic cards too.
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Do people really not play Northshire because of Fiery War Axe?
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I don't run Cleric in either of my Priest decks.
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bng_mmmk posted...

Do people really not play Northshire because of Fiery War Axe?

I'm saying they killed the only good answer to turn 1 go first mana Wyrm or Northshire
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Arena #25
I Was Offered: Druid/Hunter/Rogue
I Picked: Rogue


Difficult decision this time. Druid will probably yield the best results, Hunter is my fav/personal best class, while Rogue is the one that I've been needing to use to clear out a few quests. I went with Rogue in the end. I'm almost as good with Rogue as with Hunter anyway and it has high potential to draft into something solid.

The Draft: Pulled a midrange/control type Rogue without many early game plays but a solid 3-5 range of cards. I got a good number of quality cards but MANY situations where my choice was like 10/15/86. So, not really a choice, and I was stuck with whatever curve I ended up with about 60% of the way through the draft. Anyway I managed to pick up a Van Cleef but not much to combo him with. My other options were significantly worse. I expect the hit of this deck to be my two Corpsetakers. I have Divine Shield, Taunt, Windfury, and Lifesteal all in my deck. Oh yes.

Game 1: Vs Druid. I went First. Got pretty lucky and actually drew my early game cards right at the start. Corpsetaker to play right on turn 4 as well. This deck doesn't have a ton of quality but when it hits the good cards it's REALLY good. Unfortunately for me he has a poisonous wasp which makes my plays awkward, and ends up setting him up for a PERFECT Swipe. An unfortunate case where the one time I get really good draw RNG his is EVEN BETTER and counters mine perfectly. He runs me out of cards. Loss.

These are the worst kind of losses since you know it should have been a win, and those are hard to come by in Arena sometimes. I got increasingly unlucky as the game went on with him continuing to draw answers while I continued to not draw ANY of my outs.

Game 2: Vs Warlock. I went Second. Pretty good opener. I mostly came out ahead due to sheer value. Second opponent in a row plays Spiked Hogrider on turn 5 while I have a taunt up. Super fucking annoying. I got my Coin from Burgly Bully but no VanCleef for the Cleef value. Grave Shambler is soooo good in Rogue. It's basically got Inspire: Gain +1/+1. Unfortunately for me I got Harrison Jones'd and ended up giving him two cards. Argh. This drew him into Wolfrider + Bonemare to completely turn the game around when I was well in the lead. Argh. Loss.

Two fucking bullshit losses in a row right at the start of a run. Wow. I am salt incarnate right now.

I literally just got done describing how the worst kind of loss is the one where you've got good draw RNG and could easily win almost any game and then you lose anyway because your opponent got slightly more lucky. And then it happens again for the second consecutive game. Argh.

Literally the only circumstance where I don't win that game is when he drafts exactly Harrison Jones and this topdecks him Bonemare AND Wolfrider RIGHT BEFORE I kill him.

Game 3: Vs Hunter. I went First. Managed to rush him down and kill him quickly. Poor guy. Honestly there's no way that he deserved to face a deck on the level of the one I'm piloting, not at 0-2. Win.

Game 4: Vs Mage. I went First. Started off strong, then things go downhill as classic Mage shenanigans ensue. His Arcane Anomoly has a 2/4 stat line if you want an idea of how many bullshit answers he has consecutively played by turn 6. Then he plays Firelands Portal on 7. Yeah, this card is sure supposed to be rare in arena. How about just removing it like it should be? No? Didn't think so. Then Medivh. Then he smacks my taunt minion with Ateish, bringing himself down to exact lethal based on the minions I have on board. Just what. Why. What. WHY ARE MAGE PLAYERS SO FUCKING BAD???? Win.
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VeryInsane posted...

bng_mmmk posted...

Do people really not play Northshire because of Fiery War Axe?

I'm saying they killed the only good answer to turn 1 go first mana Wyrm or Northshire

I mean...do those two cards currently dominate all non-warrior classes?
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They both see a lot of play even with Warrior being common so... yes?
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Ok, let me put my thoughts out there.

Innervate-Honestly would have preferred it going straight to Wild, but this isn't too bad. Not sure whether it will still see play or not. It's Counterfeit Coin without having combo's. Might see play, might get pushed aside to make room for some kind of early game card in case the Druid misses their ramp cards.

Fiery War Axe-Don't really like this. Yes it needed nerfed, but I believe it should have been given an extra durability to compensate for it going to 3 mana. As it is it's now Rallying Blade without the battlecry and Rallying Blade rarely saw play until this expansion.

Hex-A year too late, but better late then never I suppose. It's Hex is Polymorph, only it's 1 less attack and gets taunt. It should have always been given the same cost as Poly. Thumbs up.

Murloc Warleader-As I've said before, I hate Paladins constantly getting a murloc theme as it makes no sense so anything that puts a hurt on that is ok with me. The nerf is a fair one as Paladin early game with the right cards is near unstoppable. If this card goes down on curve, those turn 1 and 2 murlocs can have their health buffed up past most early game removal allowing them to steamroll out of control.

Spreading Plague-Still not quite enough in my opinion, but I'm not sure what I would change. This cards value is out of control. One of the many reasons Druid is so strong is because this card shuts down its one major weakness, that being agro. Against a full board this can be 35 defense in stats. Even for 6 mana that's really strong.

And then we have the one card that really needed to be nerfed and dodged it in Ultimate Infestation.
I'm going to go into too much detailed math, but all the effects of UI on individual cards comes out to close to 16 mana. you have 16 mana worth of effects on one 10 mana card. That card is OP beyond belief. You could take away the armor and bring the card down to 4 damage, 4 cards, and summon a 4/4, and it would still be a really strong card worth playing. The fact that this card dodged the nerf bat suggests to me that

a) Blizzard is playing it slow and wants to see where Druid sits after these nerfs and will make more changes if they need to

or

b) Are greedy and don't want to give away free dust from a new epic

I want to believe that it's A but the pessimistic side of me that's played too many Blizzard games over the years tells me it's B. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Also, I would have liked to see Wild Growth be changed to not give a free draw once the Druid hits 10 mana but that might be too greedy of me.
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VeryInsane posted...

They both see a lot of play even with Warrior being common so... yes?

I guess I see your point, but it sounds like you're just saying "This warrior nerf will result in reduced win rates for warriors." >_>
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Doesn't matter, though. I'm just being nit-picky. Crazy what a single beer will do when I'm communicating behind a screen and a keyboard.
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Game 5: Vs Mage. I went Second. Now this is a whole different ball game. I have a bunch of one and two drops so I think about getting on the board early... then I draw VanCleef. Hmm. Might be wise to hold off, then. Not sure if this is the right move but I gamble on playing a bit slowly. Especially since he had no turn 1 play. Primordial Glyph on turn 2. Unless that is exactly Polymorph, this slow start could be good for me. 6/6 VanCleef on turn 3. I don't want to get TOO greedy. Kabal Chemist gives him exactly Freezing Potion to delay it for at least a turn. Then he has Mirror Image to stall for yet another turn. Oh boy. So I guess the theme of this run is me getting incredibly lucky in ways I don't usually (drafting VanCleef, getting a 6/6 VanCleef on turn 3) and my opponents just having exact perfect answers anyway despite how unlikely that is. Volcanic Potion created by Primordial Glyph. Into Flamestrike. To clear my board when I have lethal on board. Molten Reflection created by Shimmering Tempest. Fuck. Mages. In. Arena. I BM'd hard at the end by pretending to miss lethal before killing him. Win.

This is some damn frustrating Hearthstone I am playing right now. I mean really he needed the combined power of Volcanic Potion AND Flamestrike to clear my board and he had both of them. One from a random effect. This shit is out of control. Starting a run at 0-2 is always nerve wracking. Especially when you've got a good deck that deserves so much more.

Game 6: Vs Shaman. I went First. My first truly clunky opener of the run. He coins out... a totem? I have no idea. Oh I see. He had Cryostasis to play on it the following turn. That's actually pretty clever. I have the 1 mana freeze guy to stop it, and then draw both of my Corpse Taker's consecutively. Then I drop Scaled Nightmare behind them. Then he rolls Volcano and gets the worst RNG imaginable, leaving all of my minions alive with 1 health. Oh man. I feel so bad for this dude. Win.

Game 7: Vs Warlock. I went First. Had good draw RNG here and focused mostly on keeping him off the board as much as possible. Build up quickly, he has to coin out Felfire Potion to stay alive. But his health is low. And I drop Scaled Nightmare onto an empty board. And he kills it with Book Wyrm. Oh. Alright then. Well this was pretty one sided but now it might be a game! He makes some pretty god awful plays but it doesn't matter too much since he has high quality mid/late game stall cards. Onyxia Created by Bone Drake. Loss.

Final Result: 4-3

Hugely unsatisfying run that really seemed to highlight all of the worst problems in Hearthstone over the entire Year of the Mammoth. Bullshit card generation cards leading to RNG victory driven outcomes. Also the frustration of going 0-2 at the start, off of games that I had very high odds of winning in a vacuum. I should be at 6-1 right now, not 4-3. But even worse is the fact that my "expected" bullshit loss (against the final Warlock) is something that wouldn't normally be TOO frustrating, but the fact that having ONE stroke of normal bad luck INSTANTLY kills the run because of unreasonable levels of earlier bad luck is just unfair and unfun. The fact that he was a pretty bad player is just rubbing salt in the wound.

1 Pack, 70 Gold.
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Wedge Antilles posted...

I'm going to go into too much detailed math, but all the effects of UI on individual cards comes out to close to 16 mana. you have 16 mana worth of effects on one 10 mana card

If we're talking straight up mana calculations, isn't N'Zoth like insanely high value? I get that you have to build a deck around him but it's not as if that's difficult.

I think UI is sort of OK. Rarely do I lose because they played UI on turn 10 or later. Or if that's the case it was a close game anyway. But the problem is when they're playing UI on turn 5 or something, which should be less of an issue now.
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bng_mmmk posted...

VeryInsane posted...

They both see a lot of play even with Warrior being common so... yes?

I guess I see your point, but it sounds like you're just saying "This warrior nerf will result in reduced win rates for warriors." >_>

nah, I think VI's point is that it will see an increase in the presence of oppressive one drops. which are already kind of a big problem in constructed. so yeah. this "nerf" to warrior is actually a stealth buff to an entire category of cards that is already bullshit tier.
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I would rather have Innervate moved to HoF, but I guess this is fine too. I don't think it'll see play at all anymore. 1 mana is an astronomically huge deal. Plague is also a good nerf. Those are the two cards I wanted to see hit most. Jade Idol is potentially a problem, but I dunno. I wouldn't underestimate how much worse druid decks can get without Innervate. And if midrange can kill Jade a turn faster then maybe it's not an issue.

War Axe was too strong but I don't think there was anything to be done about it. I think you had to leave it alone and nerf some other part of the pirate deck (upgrade, reaper, patches?).

Similarly, Hex is a bad change because removal in Hearthstone is really bad. I'm not even sure what class is supposed to have good removal anymore. Mage? Rogue???

Warleader just feels bad. I'd rather they change how buffs "restore" health and change the stupid Finja interaction. Will still be fine in aggressive murloc decks I guess.
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just for reference, that last run had 5 out of 7 unsatisfying games. thankfully this is not the norm but man when the perfect storm of arena terribleness happens you can really feel it. I am mentally exhausted from that experience.
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bng_mmmk posted...

Wedge Antilles posted...

I'm going to go into too much detailed math, but all the effects of UI on individual cards comes out to close to 16 mana. you have 16 mana worth of effects on one 10 mana card

If we're talking straight up mana calculations, isn't N'Zoth like insanely high value? I get that you have to build a deck around him but it's not as if that's difficult.

I think UI is sort of OK. Rarely do I lose because they played UI on turn 10 or later. Or if that's the case it was a close game anyway. But the problem is when they're playing UI on turn 5 or something, which should be less of an issue now.

N'zoth is a card you have to build a deck around and fit in some deathrattles that aren't all that efficient. On its own, Infested Tauren never sees play because it's not all that impressive on its own. Yogg and Y'shaarj both have an RNG aspect to them and can horribly backfire. C'thun is another 10 mana win condition that makes you put in a bunch of mediocre cards to make it good.
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If I expect to get average value for my 10-drops, or have to build my whole deck around it, why the hell would I play a deck that tries to play 10-drops? Faceless Behemoth no thanks.
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MariaTaylor posted...

bng_mmmk posted...

VeryInsane posted...

They both see a lot of play even with Warrior being common so... yes?

I guess I see your point, but it sounds like you're just saying "This warrior nerf will result in reduced win rates for warriors." >_>

nah, I think VI's point is that it will see an increase in the presence of oppressive one drops. which are already kind of a big problem in constructed. so yeah. this "nerf" to warrior is actually a stealth buff to an entire category of cards that is already bullshit tier.

Well that sort of brings it back to my original response of "do people not play northshire because of war axe?"

Like obviously warrior will be worse off against those cards after this nerf, but...only warrior?

So yes, on the whole decks that use those cards will improve, but the only people who will actually feel the impact are the people who are playing warrior, I guess is my point. And when I first read the comment it came across more as "oh noes the meta will be overrun by these 1 drops now".
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My Skill With Particular Classes in Arena

Hunter
Druid
Rogue
-- average ---
Warlock

I only included classes where I've played enough games to be statistically significant. Funny that Warlock is the only one that falls below my overall win rate average. Especially since it's supposedly a tier 1 class. And considering...

Strength Of My Opponents in Arena

Warlock
Mage/Paladin
Druid --- average ---
Rogue/Hunter
Priest
Shaman

Warrior is exempted due to facing so few of them. Druid happens to line up perfectly with my average win rate so they can be considered the "average" class. There's a pretty fair gap between Warlock and everything else. Makes it seem like Warlock is insane in arena right now. Of course these are only my own results and probably don't represent the entire player base. Although they likely follow the same general trends. We know Shaman and Priest are not great right now, we know which classes are good and they are all in some order near the top.

Funny enough I still face way more Mages than anything else. And they still feel like a tier 1 class when I play against them. Which, to be fair, they are still pretty much near the top along with Paladin and Warlock. So yeah.
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Those are...certainly not the changes I was expecting.
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Shaun: Are there any cards up for debate in Arena to either nerf or change offering rates? This is specifically targeted towards Death Knight heroes in the synergy pick section.

Mike: We have new technology that auto-corrects offering rates based on their win rate. This system will be monitored closely and will hopefully bring all classes closer to a 50% win rate.

honestly reading this makes me want to quit arena and just quit hearthstone all together. I was thinking of taking a break until the synergy pool gets removed but this is beyond ridiculous. this kind of change will make the win and loss rates of players depend almost entirely on luck.

did you draft one of the rare cards that has a high win rate? congratulations, you win.
did you draft one of the rare cards that has a low win rate? too bad, you lose.

fucking beyond stupid.
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