Board 8 > Hearthstone Discussion Topic: Death Is Eternal, My Turn Is Not!

(+) Yeah! (+)

Just opened a small bit of packs, got... Valanar and Golden Moorabi.

why'd it have to be those two
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Well at least he turned into Deathstalker so I can get the Hunter quest out of the way at last

7 of 9 DKs get now. Just need Uther and Garrosh
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I crafted DK Guldan to try out this new Handlock deck. Handlock was probably one of my favorite deck types to play, up there with Dragon Priest so I'm excited to see it come back.
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I don't have Guldan, so I was running one with only good ol' Jaraxxus last night, and ran up against a sorta mirror with DK Guldan. I was able to Jaraxxus on a turn he played a Doomsayer, so it became a battle of suped-up hero powers.

Turns out mine was better.
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Big News

https://twitter.com/bdbrode/status/904399898258190336?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pcgamer.com%2Fblizzard-will-reveal-a-nerf-to-hearthstones-druid-class-this-week%2F
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So... an announcement of an announcement of them saying "It's on our radar"?
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Chances are they are going to actually change things within 2 weeks imo.
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can they fucking fix arena while they're at it

no?

didn't think so
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Last balance change came with Arena changes so it wouldn't surprise me if this one does too

Wouldn't surprise me if they just did away with DK cards entirely
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MariaTaylor posted...

can they fucking fix arena while they're at it

no?

didn't think so

They haven't fixed arena since they started arena, so don't hold your breath.
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The issues with arena are almost always due to 1. New Mechanics 2. Card rarity distribution. This is the first time a subset of cards was a major issue.
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VeryInsane posted...

Last balance change came with Arena changes so it wouldn't surprise me if this one does too

Wouldn't surprise me if they just did away with DK cards entirely

I probably sound like a broken record at this point but all they need to do is remove the DK Cards and the synergy pool and arena will be pretty great right now.

edit: uh, I guess my point is that this makes it even MORE frustrating. because if arena just completely sucked it would be like, okay, whatever, arena sucks. I don't care. but in this case it's so close to being the best its ever been and all they have to do is make two easy changes. one of them is just undoing something that never should have been done in the first place.

trdl23 posted...

They haven't fixed arena since they started arena, so don't hold your breath.

well I'm already assuming no changes so yeah. any changes will probably be a pleasant surprise.

(now preparing to eat my words when they make changes to actively worsen arena)

KokoroAkechi posted...

The issues with arena are almost always due to 1. New Mechanics 2. Card rarity distribution. This is the first time a subset of cards was a major issue.

well the biggest issue is that some classes have inherently good hero powers that make them better than others in arena, and blizzard keeps printing good arena style cards for these classes
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Thanks for the feedback regarding Druid. We've been considering options and should have more to share this week.

he made an announcement that they're going to make an announcement
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Brode has me blocked. What does the tweet say?

...What did you do to make this happen?
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Told him he was a terrible director and Hearthstone would be garbage until someone else took his job, which is completely true. He has zero idea what he's doing.

The fucking idiot literally called Death Knights the first new card type one expansion after quests happened. The dude is a complete dumbass.

quests are technically spells, so he's right

Death Knights are their own thing
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Even if he was wrong, that would be an absurd overreaction to have to a simple error.
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Btw. All of my arena decks this expansion have been awful. At times sub 60 points bad. Some of the time I get synergy picks at the start but then succeed in not getting offered anything related. I have a paladin deck and got like a dragon as a first pick. But was offered one other dragon card the entire game.
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KokoroAkechi posted...

Btw. All of my arena decks this expansion have been awful. At times sub 60 points bad. Some of the time I get synergy picks at the start but then succeed in not getting offered anything related. I have a paladin deck and got like a dragon as a first pick. But was offered one other dragon card the entire game.

it's really frustrating to think about right now because about 60% of arena games follow the current rule

1. proper drafting is the most important. you need to construct a good deck to increase your probability of having good draw RNG. this means that drafting SKILL has a high impact on your ability to do well.
2. draw RNG is second most important. having multiple cards that you can play on a given turn gives multiple lines of play. this means that player SKILL has a high determination for your ability to do well. making the correct plays will often be important and be rewarded.
3. card quality is third most important. whether you play a 50 point card or a 70 point card is probably not going to make a difference. it matters more that you construct a good deck so you can draw the card at the right time and play the correct one for the situation you're in.

this is actually AMAZING. this is what arena SHOULD BE.

here's the problem... there's a few insane and broken cards in the card pool right now, and the range of low quality to high quality cards is so spread out that it leads to insane deck variance. the other 40% of games you just AUTOMATICALLY LOSE or AUTOMATICALLY WIN based on your deck quality. this makes skill completely obsolete.

this is TERRIBLE. and the exact opposite of what arena should be. to have 40% of your games be completely unfun and have a predetermined result regardless of what line of play you make is just totally unacceptable.

if all of the games were as good as the 60% I mentioned above then arena would be phenomenal right now. but it's simply not going to happen until Blizzard fixes the damn problems that are incredibly obvious and easy to fix.
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Playing against quest mage as another mage is hilarious. Guy finishes his quest so he drops his arcane golems. I freeze them.
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Also, I dunno if I want them to take DK out of arena, but I do want synergy gone. It never gives me good options.
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Earlier tonight I was watching merps streaming and he was talking some about the arena situation. He said he and adwcta don't think DK cards themselves are a problem any more than, for example, Deathwing, is a problem. Their only beef is that Jaina and Gul'dan have no place in the synergy pools.

He said something like "If you think you were dominating a game, and then your opponent played Jaina, and you ended up losing, the fact is you weren't dominating the game."

That's bullshit. Utter bullshit. Anyone who thinks Frost Lich Jaina isn't a completely insane arena card is just flat out wrong.

Sure...sure, sometimes when Jaina gets played the other person still wins no problem. But the circumstances under which Jaina takes a totally lost cause and completely flips it around are unacceptable. It's not like, "wow, that was a great turn for my opponent. With some additional luck in successive turns, this might be a problem" like you'd see with, say, deathwing.

It punishes absolutely unforeseeable circumstances. Like, you can have ten times the value in your deck, but if the numbers just don't work for you to avoid 1 health minions, you'll lose if you can't kill them within one or two turns. It's the single best carry card in the game.
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There's no worse feeling than when you finish an arena draft and go "well, those were a bunch of average cards that I made the best decisions I could about and I'm still going to get only 3 wins".
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The argument is that when facing mage, you should be trying to play faster than them. "Dominating" means you have a pretty good board lead and have already whittled down their heath a fair bit by turn 9. The Jaina DK is a rather large tempo loss itself and takes 2-3 turns to regain the tempo even if you have things to ping. If you've been dominating then you should just be able to capitalize on this and lethal them over the next couple turns. The lifesteal is too slow to matter in this case. Meanwhile the DK just sits in your opponent's hand, useless until turn 9. Sure, in a value match-up the DK can just win, but then you probably weren't dominating in this sense. And since so many of the cards in this set reward having the board, that should always be your number 1 priority vs mage, not value, unless you have a specific type of deck, which will just be weak to the DK by its nature.
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CybrMonkey posted...

The argument is that when facing mage, you should be trying to play faster than them. "Dominating" means you have a pretty good board lead and have already whittled down their heath a fair bit by turn 9. The Jaina DK is a rather large tempo loss itself and takes 2-3 turns to regain the tempo even if you have things to ping. If you've been dominating then you should just be able to capitalize on this and lethal them over the next couple turns. The lifesteal is too slow to matter in this case. Meanwhile the DK just sits in your opponent's hand, useless until turn 9. Sure, in a value match-up the DK can just win, but then you probably weren't dominating in this sense. And since so many of the cards in this set reward having the board, that should always be your number 1 priority vs mage, not value, unless you have a specific type of deck, which will just be weak to the DK by its nature.

bng_mmmk posted...

Like, you can have ten times the value in your deck, but if the numbers just don't work for you to avoid 1 health minions, you'll lose if you can't kill them within one or two turns. It's the single best carry card in the game.

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bng_mmmk posted...

He said something like "If you think you were dominating a game, and then your opponent played Jaina, and you ended up losing, the fact is you weren't dominating the game."

That's bullshit. Utter bullshit. Anyone who thinks Frost Lich Jaina isn't a completely insane arena card is just flat out wrong.

100% agree. I have four documented cases of Jaina being played against me in my last sequence of runs and every single time it won my opponent the game. Two, arguably three of those times I was in the position where I was about to win the game and they completely turned it around and made it a stomp in favor of the player who played DK Jaina. The card is absolutely fucking ballistic in arena.
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Right, my point is that value vs a mage doesn't matter. If you can't finish them off right after they play the DK then you weren't playing fast enough/going face enough, or they just kept clearing your board, in which case you weren't "dominating".
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You're talking about arena as if it's constructed.

Like, you say:

"Dominating" means you have a pretty good board lead and have already whittled down their heath a fair bit by turn 9. The Jaina DK is a rather large tempo loss itself and takes 2-3 turns to regain the tempo even if you have things to ping. If you've been dominating then you should just be able to capitalize on this and lethal them over the next couple turns.


Just a couple days ago I was up 30 life to 10 against a guy, and I controlled the board, and I had card advantage.

But because he played Jaina, and the cards in my hand weren't reach or high cost minions, he was able to take complete control of the game.

In arena, you absolutely can dominate a game for 8 or 9 turns and not have finishing power that eats through infinite lifesteal.
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CybrMonkey posted...

Right, my point is that value vs a mage doesn't matter. If you can't finish them off right after they play the DK then you weren't playing fast enough/going face enough, or they just kept clearing your board, in which case you weren't "dominating".

bng_mmmk posted...

You're talking about arena as if it's constructed.

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Like let's just compare Frost Lich Jaina to Deathwing.

If your opponent plays Deathwing and that's the turning point of the game that causes you to lose, it's just because you didn't have an answer to remove Deathwing. But if you can remove Deathwing, then very rarely does Deathwing win the game. It just prolongs the loss. Because Deathwing is just a minion.

But you can't "answer" something like Frost Lich Jaina which permanently changes the game state.

There is no way in a draft to think "hmm...I should pick card X over card Y because it's less likely to create a scenario where on turn 11 my opponent can create a situation which involves either his minion or my minion having 1 health"
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theoretically it's not an insane swing card but anyone who has played a bit of arena knows from personal experience that in practice it is an INSANE swing card that single handedly decides games. once again I've been in an 'about to win' position multiple times and had the other person play Jaina and completely run away with the game afterwards.

the card has a played win rate of around 80%

this is not a coincidence. both light forge and hearth arena had to increase the rating of the card to be higher than they initially had it set at, because it's just far better than it seems at first glance. 5 armor, plus summons an elemental with lifesteal, plus has potential to summon more elementals with lifesteal, plus gives any elementals they have in their deck lifesteal.

arena is not the same as constructed. yes, in constructed, you can have an optimized deck where the opponent gaining 5 armor is no big deal. in arena though the opponent buying themself one extra turn and putting a lifesteal monster on the board can absolutely swing the game. especially when they now have the ability to generate instant value.

first of all you're forced into difficult trades where you have to try and avoid your minions being left with 1 life because it can allow them to summon an elemental. this is not just a problem of 'well if you play really well you can avoid having 1 health and avoid being punished.' you have to understand the issue is that often you have to FOREGO making the optimal play because the oppressive hero power of DK Jaina restricts the lines of play you have available. if you top deck a minion with one health or one they can trade into and drop to one health then you just can't play. they can turn your draws into dead draws. they can force you to make the least favorable trades. if you try to face race them down they will simply keep hitting you and gaining health back from lifesteal. it's nowhere near as easy to deal with as you seem to think it is. especially in a mode where your deck is just cobbled together random cards that you have to make the best of.
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MariaTaylor posted...

you have to understand the issue is that often you have to FOREGO making the optimal play because the oppressive hero power of DK Jaina restricts the lines of play you have available. if you top deck a minion with one health or one they can trade into and drop to one health then you just can't play.

this.
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bng_mmmk posted...

MariaTaylor posted...

you have to understand the issue is that often you have to FOREGO making the optimal play because the oppressive hero power of DK Jaina restricts the lines of play you have available. if you top deck a minion with one health or one they can trade into and drop to one health then you just can't play.

this.

or, ya know, even if you make a decent play it's a fucking mage who probably has some burn spell or some way to put a minion at 1 health.

It's just oppressive as fuck.

The idea of "if you can't kill on exactly turn 9 or 10, you weren't dominating" is just...ignorant.
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I look forward to seeing what changes are in store for druid. I hope they include fixing naga sea witch so giants don't cost zero just because they're discounted from 5. Nothing's worse right now than watching a druid go sea witch => ultimate infestation => giant x4, while having taunts leftover from the last time they played spreading plague.

Basically, if you don't have a hard removal board clear right now, you're dead. Druid has too much cycle and too much stall to not make this outcome an eventuality. I'm really not sure how you stop it, outside of twisting nether, frost nova-doomsayer, or an equality clear. Maybe DK Anduin or brawl. But hunter, rogue, and shaman are completely screwed.
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on an unrelated, less alcohol-tilted note, does anyone know how long dog has been playing/streaming and what else he played/streamed before Hearthstone?
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bng_mmmk posted...

The idea of "if you can't kill on exactly turn 9 or 10, you weren't dominating" is just...ignorant.

really the only way to avoid this point is to argue that Frost Lich Jaina changed what it means to dominate a game, which is basically the same as saying "well, yes, previously this game would have been defined as you dominating, but now it's not, due to the existence of Frost Lich Jaina", which is basically the same as saying "Frost Lich Jaina is borked"
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Like 2014ish I think? And probably nothing considering I think he just graduated college

Random decklist post of his (and partially so I remember it)

https://m.imgur.com/a/5cHGi
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I think I'm on board with getting rid of DK cards in arena now. Just had a game completely ruined by a DK Jaina. God that's dumb.
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I just want to mention since it's a related subject. I don't think the change of 'reducing the appearance rate of specific broken cards' is a good fix for arena either. All this does is make it even MORE luck dependent.As the ones who are lucky enough to draft the broken cards will do really well, but you'll no longer be able to play around the card because it's insane to play around something your opponent probably doesn't have. Basically it prevents the problem of "everyone has Meteor and Meteor instantly wins them the game," but turns it into the different problem of "now if you're lucky enough to draft Meteor you instantly win games and if you're unlucky enough to have Meteor played against you then you instantly lose games and neither of these outcomes relies on skill but purely comes down to draft RNG."

This is the exact reason why simply removing DK Jaina from the synergy pool is not an appropriate fix, nor would reducing her appearance rate. The card would still be oppressive and unfair. The fact that we see it so often right now just makes it obvious how oppressive and unfair it is. Reducing her appearance rate would only hide the problem, not fix it.
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The thing is, I wish we didn't have to get rid of the DK cards.

But that Jaina swing.
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yeah I was specifically thinking of Vicious Fledgling when I typed that up

that card absolutely has no place in arena. the fact that we see it less does not change that fact. and in one of my recent runs, two of my three losses were against people playing Flappy Bird on turn 3 when I had no answer. it's just like... this shouldn't happen.
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oddly enough, dog is going over his viewer statistics of his early days on stream right now. he started in april 2014
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MariaTaylor posted...

yeah I was specifically thinking of Vicious Fledgling when I typed that up

that card absolutely has no place in arena. the fact that we see it less does not change that fact. and in one of my recent runs, two of my three losses were against people playing Flappy Bird on turn 3 when I had no answer. it's just like... this shouldn't happen.

Vicious fledgling is a card that just should never have been printed at all. That or not in its current form.
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Just had a priest pull 5 ysera awakens in a row (played all 5 of them). 0.00032 chance of happening if we assume all cards are equally likely to be pulled.
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Meanwhile, I just had a game where Ysera stayed alive for 4 turns and gave me 4 Laughing Sisters. -__-

I also got this for my Free From Amber choice:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/162396569289752576/354177552312434688/unknown.png

I'm just a walking anomaly tonight.
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your choice seems pretty clear imo =P
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