Board 8 > POLL: What do you think about the google memo?

(+) Yeah! (+)

As you've probably heard, a memo criticising google's echo chamber got its writer fired for, according to google, "perpetuating gender stereotypes." Citing several scientific sources, the memo explains that differences between the two sexes are based in both biology and society.

The memo, in case this poll convinces someone new to read it: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf
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Option "he's a self-righteous asshole with no gift of introspection"
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It's pro diversity and the media slant was ridiculous.
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Isn't this news like 2 weeks old now come on Vlado you're slipping
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Regardless of intent it basically exists to perpetuate false stereotypes. It's false and sexist.

I think the fact that Vlado is making this topic should be evidence enough of that!
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What's false about it? He may have been biased but he had a source for everything, and most people who read the memo (or just the headlines) had no business saying the science was false.
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Lightning Strikes posted...

Regardless of intent it basically exists to perpetuate false stereotypes. It's false and sexist.

I think the fact that Vlado is making this topic should be evidence enough of that!

Looking forward to seeing you - or anyone - explain how exactly it's false. The guy used multiple scientific sources. Here's what scientists said about the matter:
http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-respond/
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Nice job B8splaining science to an actual scientist, bros. Yes, he cites sources. However, that does not make his claims accurate, because he is attempting to cherry-pick real data to justify a political point which is a big no-no in science. Additionally just because something has a paper attached doesn't make it good.

As an evolutionary biologist who's studied the issue, the idea of biological differences affecting things like work is a very disputed one, especially given the known socioeconomic factors in employment differences. You can find many, many scientists calling the entire memo bunk, including pretty much my entire institute. Personally I'm mainly frustrated at how it perpetuates a fundamental misunderstanding of how evolution works.
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^
Yet to see a single fact that contradicts a single claim of his. Anyone can post paragraphs full of self-importance.
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Vlado posted...

^
Yet to see a single fact that contradicts a single claim of his. Anyone can post paragraphs full of self-importance.

Anyone can ignore piles of facts shoved into their face and pretend they haven't seen any contradictions
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

What's false about it?

"the left tends to disagree with science" is pretty false (and not backed up by a source).
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foolm0r0n posted...

Anyone can ignore piles of facts shoved into their face and pretend they haven't seen any contradictions

Sure. In this case, however, I only ignored two paragraphs of empty blabber which did nothing to disprove the obvious observations in the memo.

To quote one of the scientists in the article I posted above:

What empirical findings would convince you that psychological sex differences evolved?

More food for thought: Consider for a second how non-brainwashed countries like Japan would react to the memo.
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Go look at the GRE test taker report. It's a 70-page document from ETS that gives extensive data on people who took the GRE. Men score a standard deviation (!) higher in the math portion than women, and that goes across all age levels, demographics, and economic brackets. Further, almost all of these test-takers are college graduates or in their last semester of college. I don't think there is more conclusive proof that men as a population are better at math than women. It's not a stereotype. The less quantifiable question is why so few men become nurses or elementary school teachers, though I don't think that's difficult to answer in the abstract.
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Is that how you became such a hit with the ladies
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Vlado posted...

Sure. In this case, however, I only ignored two paragraphs of empty blabber which did nothing to disprove the obvious observations in the memo.

You haven't seen any of the stats about how women were ~40% of programmers in the 80s, and also ~50% of CS in India TODAY? You also haven't read this article which has been posted many times already (probably by you as well)? http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-respond/

And even if sex differences in negative emotionality were relevant to occupational performance (e.g., not being able to handle stressful assignments), the size of these negative emotion sex differences is not very large (typically, ranging between “small” to “moderate” in statistical effect size terminology; accounting for less than 10% of the variance).

In that case, you're not willfully ignoring facts and arguments, but you have done absolutely ZERO critical thinking and fact checking on your own. You simply see a conclusion that you agree with and stop right there, without checking if it actually explains the phenomenon. It's like looking at a map of Earth and concluding its flat. And then spending weeks posting topic after topic about how everyone is an idiot for not believing the Earth is flat.
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Vlado posted...

More food for thought: Consider for a second how non-brainwashed countries like Japan would react to the memo.

xD
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Jesus Christ, who gives a fuck
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

EndOfDiscOne posted...

What's false about it?

"the left tends to disagree with science" is pretty false (and not backed up by a source).

For someone who loves semantics, you probably shouldn't claim he said something that he didn't literally say.
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

For someone who loves semantics, you probably shouldn't claim he said something that he didn't literally say.

it was a stupid thing for him to say anyway, though.
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I am an expert in Japanese culture and the common Japanese person would react somewhat like: "KISAMA!! YURUSANAIIIII!!!!"
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@Vlado, now that they arrested the man responsible for the DNC hacks, are you going to apologize to Seth Rich's family?
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Wow this is a sad topic. Last one died out for a reason.

foolm0r0n posted...

I am an expert in Japanese culture and the common Japanese person would react somewhat like: "KISAMA!! YURUSANAIIIII!!!!"

Ya....YAMEROOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

LtMplusCATS posted...

Wow this is a sad topic. Last one died out for a reason.

Because it hit 500?
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are there any responses online from people in glorious Nippon?
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foolm0r0n posted...

You haven't seen any of the stats about how women were ~40% of programmers in the 80s, and also ~50% of CS in India TODAY?

Which only proves my point? When women have more freedom to choose a profession, like in the Western world today, they tend to choose people-oriented professions. Surely you don't believe women have more freedom in India or Iran.

foolm0r0n posted...

And even if sex differences in negative emotionality were relevant to occupational performance (e.g., not being able to handle stressful assignments), the size of these negative emotion sex differences is not very large (typically, ranging between “small” to “moderate” in statistical effect size terminology; accounting for less than 10% of the variance).

OK? This also reinforces the memo author's point - biology also plays a part, even if it's "small" to "moderate" in this particular aspect.

foolm0r0n posted...

I don't like you.

We knew.

TheRock1525 posted...

@Vlado, now that they arrested the man responsible for the DNC hacks, are you going to apologize to Seth Rich's family?

Hmm? Are you referring to that Pakistani DNC IT? Did they make him take the fall for the DNC leaks? First time I hear of it. Source?

MoogleKupo141 posted...

are there any responses online from people in glorious Nippon?

Well, they don't care about such trivial things. It was a hypothetical. If they were presented with such a memo, Japanese people would go "Yeah, and water is wet. Your point?"
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I find it hilarious that Vlado, as usual, only brings up "science" when it agrees with him. Once again, this is a guy who disagrees with scientific consensus AND the Bible when it comes to all humans descending from a common ancestor.
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Vlado posted...

Hmm? Are you referring to that Pakistani DNC IT? Did they make him take the fall for the DNC leaks? First time I hear of it. Source?

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/16/world/europe/russia-ukraine-malware-hacking-witness.html

https://www.technologyreview.com/the-download/608672/hacker-whose-tools-were-used-in-dnc-hack-steps-forward/
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>a guy from Ukraine, you know, the country where US/globalists staged a coup and installed a puppet government with the sole goal of undermining Russia, says he made the "tools Russian hackers used to hack the US elections"
>we are expected to believe that this is the turnabout in the case after a year and 2 months of zero evidence

WTF? Joke's on me for expecting real news, I suppose.
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A quote for the ages.

From 2006

http://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2006/03/getting-women-scientists-back-career-track-japan

Next month, Japan's government will launch a new category of grants open only to parents returning to the scientific workforce after extended childrearing breaks. It is part of a package of initiatives that also includes grants for institutions to develop schemes to help women balance research careers and family life. The underlying objective--set out in a draft 5-year policy plan--is to have women claim 25% of all new science and engineering positions at governmental institutions.

To boost the numbers, the Council for Science and Technology Policy (CSTP), the nation's highest science advisory body, set targets for the proportion of newly available permanent positions that go to women in the Third Science and Technology Basic Plan, expected to be adopted by the cabinet this month. Targets vary by field: 30% for health and life sciences, 30% for agricultural sciences, 20% for physical sciences, and 15% for engineering. The percentages are based on the proportions of women currently earning Ph.D.s in each area. "We assume that the ability of men and women are equal, so we can naturally expect that the rates [of women earning Ph.D.s] should be reflected in the rates of women becoming professors or assistant professors," says Kawamoto, who oversaw the drafting of the plan.

Glorious Nippon has shamed you, Vlado-san
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Vlado posted...

I profusely apologize to the family of Seth Rich for believing in crackpot conspiracies that did nothing but aggravate a grieving family's pain and made myself look like a jackass.

Hey better late than never, Vlado.
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https://twitter.com/businessinsider/status/898309595856240641


Boy Vlado this guy isn't really helping your case here
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Vlado posted...

Surely you don't believe women have more freedom in India

Yes, and in the 1980s US too. Far more economic freedom, far less debt. That's what MAGA is all about, remember? That thing that you worship?

Besides, you're still just completely ignoring any contradictions to your theory. China and Brazil have far less freedoms for everyone (especially women), but also have very few women in tech. China even has a strong growing economy, and has the same problem.

So what do the US, Europe, Brazil, and China all share when it comes to women in tech, which India and 1980s US specifically do not have?

THAT is the question that someone who is actually using their brain and critically thinking will try to answer. No, actually, they would NOT REST until they found that answer. They would not say a single thing more on this subject until they could at least explain this simple thing. Are you one of those people?


Vlado posted...

OK? This also reinforces the memo author's point

Not at all. If biology is 10%, what is the 90%? The point of the memo was to say "it's biology, stop searching for any more answers."

Are you satisfied with knowing 10% of the answer? Is that what critical thinking is all about? Taking 2 or 3 steps and then sitting down, giving yourself a pat on the back, demanding a victory trophy for your amazing intellectual effort? Immune to criticism for the rest of your life?

Personally, I like to get 100% of the answer. Might just be me though...

Vlado posted...

We knew.

What?
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Saying he has sources and is therefore correct is idiotic. I'm a neuroscientist and every week we rip apart peer reviewed papers because a lot of shit gets published. Hell, if I wanted I'm sure I could write an article about how mice are 'smarter' than humans and provide ample shitty citations and 'sources' I misconstrue to argue my point. Welcome to science.
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

https://twitter.com/businessinsider/status/898309595856240641


Boy Vlado this guy isn't really helping your case here

SephyG??

He's right. Even just him being fired is the proof. He could argue it's worse, given the negative publicity and blacklisting google slapped him with in addition to the firing.
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Define "right"

Because there's no way
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foolm0r0n posted...

Define "right"

Because there's no way

Being fired is worse than being beaten in the street, duh.
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Vlado posted...

Even just him being fired is the proof.

no it's not lol.

i can see why you're so impressed with the memo if you think this is how "the proof" is defined.
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The guy shouldn't have done an interview with Business Insider since they attacked him early on. Of course they'll choose a headline to paint him as bad as possible to the opposition.

I watched a bit of his interviews and it wouldn't surprise me if he has aspergers. He reasons in a logical way and it probably doesn't always occur to him that he would offend people. It's a mistake to make any comparison to a discrimated class because people get super offended about that. He doesn't mean that being a conservative at google is exactly like being gay in the 50s. Just that they have something in common. And the public is sort of proving his point that he shouldn't be honest about his views.
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why the hell shouldn't he be honest about his views?
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

why the hell shouldn't he be honest about his views?

...uh because everyone hates him now an he got fired? Where have you been
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

...uh because everyone hates him now an he got fired? Where have you been

lol, "everyone hates him now"? exaggerating much? tons of alt-right people have rushed to his defense. and just because people hate the memo doesn't necessarily mean they hate him. i watched the molyneux interview and while he's terrible on the mic, he doesn't seem like a bad dude. he's certainly not as big of an asshole as, say, milo.
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

It's pro diversity and the media slant was ridiculous.

This tbh. Some things could've been worded better, but the general slant was give more opportunities to everyone and extend the availability of programs that could benefit people, whilst not trying to over force diversity simply to make up the numbers.

Like I disagree with certain parts of it but it was all based on research and tame opinions. So the fact he was branded a misogynist and then fired, then doxxed, then meme'd disgusts me.

Google was of course completely within their rights to fire him as an employer, but it did just prove his point.
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MenuWars posted...

Like I disagree with certain parts of it but it was all based on research and tame opinions.

again, "the left tends to deny science" is hardly a "tame opinion." and like other people pointed out, just because stuff is "based on research" doesn't mean it's not bullshit.

Google was of course completely within their rights to fire him as an employer, but it did just prove his point.

what's his point?
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

MenuWars posted...

Like I disagree with certain parts of it but it was all based on research and tame opinions.

again, "the left tends to deny science" is hardly a "tame opinion." and like other people pointed out, just because stuff is "based on research" doesn't mean it's not bullshit.

Google was of course completely within their rights to fire him as an employer, but it did just prove his point.

what's his point?

That he was working in an ideological echo chamber.

...and the left use hyperbole at least in equal measure to the right, so the fact that some of your loudest voices do ignore shit to back up their theories isn't far fetched, the problem is everyone's doing it.
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Oh Lasa's doing his burn the witch routine again, nevermind carry on.
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MenuWars posted...

so the fact that some of your loudest voices do ignore shit to back up their theories isn't far fetched, the problem is everyone's doing it.

some leftists, sure. i'd like to see some evidence that the majority of leftists is doing this, though (which he didn't provide).
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MenuWars posted...

Oh Lasa's doing his burn the witch routine again, nevermind carry on.

literally just said i don't think he's a bad dude.

but YEAH BURN THE WITCH
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