Board 8 > ~~Japanese History~~ Mafia Topic 7 - I would have mourned my loss of life

(+) Yeah! (+)

I was fine being lynched, it was the right play to do it before end game
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Yeah. I kinda felt bad about it, since my gut thought you were town, but it was too late in the game for gut and your vote record was the most suspicious.
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Phoenix-Smasher posted...

I kinda feel like I cost town the game in a sense by outting and not going after Death harder :/

Your biggest mistake was revealing your role. Like I said in an earlier post, Plum had left some doubt. Your claiming didn't clear Scept. You didn't have any extra info to give town at that point. But

But yeah your second biggest mistake was posting all those huge walls of text. Reading through them, I couldn't tell what point you were trying to make. Way too many quotes.
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Killing me night 1 saved the roleblocker's life day 2 to be honest, as when I go into 'Death = wrong' day 1 I think he is scum. I kind of rule 1 death like you guys rule 1 me. I find it amusing so many town thought I was scum for being wrong on oddity when I did my best to be clear about my reasonings. I liked my play day 1, it was reasoned and well thought out, I just didn't know Oddity's game as well as I thought. Also I wish I got to play more than 1 day of mafia as town some time.
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ScareChan posted...

I was fine being lynched, it was the right play to do it before end game

dowolf posted...

Yeah. I kinda felt bad about it, since my gut thought you were town, but it was too late in the game for gut and your vote record was the most suspicious.

I agree and disagree. I can agree that it would've been worse if it happened at end game. So, if you can't avoid it then ok. But I feel it was already late enough in the game that you don't want to waste lynches. So, personally I would've stuck to my read on him. As you saw votals "condemned" Scare and "cleared" Death.

I wanted to respond because I wanted to compare this to the Oddity lynch. I got a lot of flack for not switching onto LoLo or Scept to try to prevent the Oddity lynch. So yes I was scum. But I actually think it would've been anti-town of me to do so.

First, if I manage to lead a lynch onto Scept or LoLo and they happen to flip town, now town scanners will likely investigate Oddity, thereby wasting a night. The reasoning on Scept was poor. The reasoning on LoLo was a bad vote and inactivity. I understand not lynching inactives D1. So, neither of those were good choices. I stand by not voting either of them and therefore effectively allowing Oddity to be lynched even though I had a strong town read on him. I don't see that as scummy. I do believe I was personally acting scummy though. I wasn't pushing for Death as hard as I would've had I actually wanted him lynched. I think town had a very good D1 and an Ok N1 despite the mislynch, and partly because there wasn't a switch to someone else.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Killing me night 1 saved the roleblocker's life day 2 to be honest, as when I go into 'Death = wrong' day 1 I think he is scum. I kind of rule 1 death like you guys rule 1 me. I find it amusing so many town thought I was scum for being wrong on oddity when I did my best to be clear about my reasonings. I liked my play day 1, it was reasoned and well thought out, I just didn't know Oddity's game as well as I thought. Also I wish I got to play more than 1 day of mafia as town some time.

I liked most of your D1. I think you played a good day. And I think you know Oddity's play well enough. I think your error was an error of scale. I think you actually misunderstood what he said. Therefore what you thought he said would've been 100% scum. He just didn't mean what you thought he meant. Specifically I think you and everyone else took him to mean that he said you were scum, when what he really meant was that he thought you could be scum in a little more than a coin flip.

I'm curious, was your magic trick double as get people talking and also if Tom or Scare are scum I can use this later?
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Killing me night 1 saved the roleblocker's life day 2 to be honest, as when I go into 'Death = wrong' day 1 I think he is scum. I kind of rule 1 death like you guys rule 1 me. I find it amusing so many town thought I was scum for being wrong on oddity when I did my best to be clear about my reasonings. I liked my play day 1, it was reasoned and well thought out, I just didn't know Oddity's game as well as I thought. Also I wish I got to play more than 1 day of mafia as town some time.

Also, I might just vote you D2 on principle if you're alive and I don't have a strong reason not to.
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That's what Rule 1'ing is.

(Rule 1: If Chris is alive d2, he's scum)
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dowolf posted...

That's what Rule 1'ing is.

(Rule 1: If Chris is alive d2, he's scum)

I'm somewhat slow to pickup the slang sometimes. I completely forgot WIFOM was a thing here. My first reference to it this game, I like actually quoted a part of it.
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Sorry for being really incredibly awful guys.
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hell I didnt even have to lie to condemn Oddity
his past and current posts really did look like contradictions from certain angles
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I think a lot of you are stuck on "how you properly play mafia" and God forbid someone should do something that shouldn't be done then they are dumb or foolish. For instance, scum not blocking kbm when they killed her, it was said that would have made for a stupid scum team, however they did it and it worked.

I feel like a lot of the preconceived notions of mafia play hinder the game at times.
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Sbell was obv town to me when oddity flipped town tbh
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If only they could all be like chris
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i'd rather not
for my own scumhealth
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Obellisk posted...

I think a lot of you are stuck on "how you properly play mafia" and God forbid someone should do something that shouldn't be done then they are dumb or foolish. For instance, scum not blocking kbm when they killed her, it was said that would have made for a stupid scum team, however they did it and it worked.

I feel like a lot of the preconceived notions of mafia play hinder the game at times.

Yeah I agree.
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Pez, still disagree on getting good reads on people you've never played with?

Since you flipped scum wasn't sure if you were being sincere or just countering the argument cause you were scum.
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Obellisk posted...

Pez, still disagree on getting good reads on people you've never played with?

Since you flipped scum wasn't sure if you were being sincere or just countering the argument cause you were scum.

No you misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't saying you could or could not read me, I was pretty scummy D1 and you and others caught on. I was saying it is not easier because you don't know me. I still stand by that.

If your response is but hey I caught you, then mine is yes you did. But not because you don't know me. But because I was acting a bit scummy.
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pezloco posted...

Obellisk posted...

Pez, still disagree on getting good reads on people you've never played with?

Since you flipped scum wasn't sure if you were being sincere or just countering the argument cause you were scum.

No you misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't saying you could or could not read me, I was pretty scummy D1 and you and others caught on. I was saying it is not easier because you don't know me. I still stand by that.

If your response is but hey I caught you, then mine is yes you did. But not because you don't know me. But because I was acting a bit scummy.

Stop taking credit for my catching you... or something.

^_^
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Also i definitely want people to take from this game how dangerous softclaiming can be. Scum is almost always going to pick up on those better than town. So you need to really keep in mind the risks when doing such.

Claiming too early can be dangerous as well. Bad claims and timing basically had us picking off town power cleanly by night two and further claims down the following nights(with jailkeeper dead town was far too forthcoming with its claims).

With double protection and essentially triple scanner town could have rolled us over simply by staying quiet when it had a chance.

Leafeon13N posted...

Also i definitely want people to take from this game how dangerous softclaiming can be. Scum is almost always going to pick up on those better than town. So you need to really keep in mind the risks when doing such.

Claiming too early can be dangerous as well. Bad claims and timing basically had us picking off town power cleanly by night two and further claims down the following nights(with jailkeeper dead town was far too forthcoming with its claims).

With double protection and essentially triple scanner town could have rolled us over simply by staying quiet when it had a chance.

To follow up here, we knew KBM was cop as soon as he put his vote on me to start D2. She didn't even soft claim. We picked up SBell knew he was RBed. Neither of those were even soft claims.

Point is, don't unnecessarily reveal information and pay attention to what you're saying.
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Another follow up, if everyone gets better at holding in information, then gambits like Scare's can actually work. It's much harder, but giving scum misinformation can be a huge advantage.
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pezloco posted...

Another follow up, if everyone gets better at holding in information, then gambits like Scare's can actually work. It's much harder, but giving scum misinformation can be a huge advantage.

This is the reason I never claim Doctor as Vanilla in the hopes of eating a bullet, because I know the real doctor will be like "hey no I'm the doctor!" and then they get to mislynch and shoot the doc. Sigh.
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One of the problems with the argument against me was that Chris knew me well enough to know I would do an appeal to emotion as scum. That's true, but I was genuinely frustrated because I wasn't able to disprove the case against me. So while the meltdown was real, I would certainly have attempted something similar as scum.
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MenuWars posted...

pezloco posted...

Another follow up, if everyone gets better at holding in information, then gambits like Scare's can actually work. It's much harder, but giving scum misinformation can be a huge advantage.

This is the reason I never claim Doctor as Vanilla in the hopes of eating a bullet, because I know the real doctor will be like "hey no I'm the doctor!" and then they get to mislynch and shoot the doc. Sigh.

They dont even have to outright say hey no im doctor. Scum will figure it out based on reactions to the claim.

I was super nice this game, so now for some earnest critique of board 8 towns: they don't know how to play mafia, on a macro level.

For example, Sbell said something hilarious at the end of day 1 that was such a tell that no one even commented on. When viewing the Oddity lynch I noted if Oddity was scum, I'd go after Sbell. Sbell made the pithy comment that while he hoped we were right, maybe it would be worth it to not have me go after him for days to come.

To many, its a random comment.

But a few things to note here:

1) He thinks if Oddity is town, he'll have less pressure on him (note: scum would know oddity was town there, and this statement is harder t conjure when you know the facts) and 2) he knows, if he is scum, he has an assassin shot coming my way.

It's a statement of intent scum can almost never make, but it goes unnoticed.

I was very pleased with my assistant Plum, he did me well (and what a fantastic snap town read by me) and I will say that scum didn't play very well in terms of their positions, but town as usual kind of ran out of steam. With Gravy it makes sense he doesn't play much any more, but dowolf kind of got gassed too.

Wish someone would have noted Chris' guidebook to reading death though. I know I led a mislynch day 1 but by doing so kind of gave you death on a silver platter!
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though you were trying to say I'd been gaslighted.

was very confused.
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we were lucky that Plum didnt scan someone innocent, since VI was suspected enough already
but then we didnt expect a 5th power at all anyway
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htaeD posted...

we were lucky that Plum didnt scan someone innocent, since VI was suspected enough already
but then we didnt expect a 5th power at all anyway

It was a track not a scan so scanning anyone else would probably not have been conclusive.
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There was only an RB and one vanilla left at the time for scum, so any track would've been conclusive.

I do think it was a major misplay to scan one of the people everyone suspected and who were going to be lynched regardless, rather than investigate one of the less likelier suspects.
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dowolf posted...

There was only an RB and one vanilla left at the time for scum, so any track would've been conclusive.

I do think it was a major misplay to scan one of the people everyone suspected and who were going to be lynched regardless, rather than investigate one of the less likelier suspects.

I don't know if that changes much. It means that we have someone to kill at 4 people. Without the track, maybe VI doesn't get lynched and maybe Scare does then. VI could've been lynched, but the Track forces the issue.
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I was going to lynch Scare over VI if not for the track, but I would have gone hard after VI afterward and I don't think he was too likely to get out of it alive.
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Yeah, even without the scan. VI was likely done for. But I don't think it was a bad scan for plum to have made.
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Obellisk posted...

Yeah, even without the scan. VI was likely done for. But I don't think it was a bad scan for plum to have made.

Don't forget that Scept wasn't confirmed until VI flips. So, without the scan on VI, you guys are debating between Scept/Gravy/VI/Scare in reverse order of who I think most likely to get lynched. Plum can confirm one of them. Best case he confirms Scare. Then I think VI gets lynched. This does give you guys an opportunity to see people actually vote VI. But Death had Scare and VI as his targets from Plum right? So, Scares gets confirmed. He votes VI, you guys still think he's town. Then you guys probably kill Gravy instead of Scare since Scare is confirmed in this scenario.

The whole NL/NK thing doesn't happen because we kill Scare. It comes down to Dowolf/SBell/Death. And with Death's schedule, he might come in with the chance to hammer either town.

Of course we don't know what would've happened, but this scenario is at least plausible.
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Obellisk posted...

Yeah, even without the scan. VI was likely done for. But I don't think it was a bad scan for plum to have made.

If Plum scans anyone other than VI, Death, or Scare, there's a decent chance that VI survives at least one more day. And that's enough to push it to mislynch and lose. I think the VI scan was good because it confirmed scum and that was needed badly.
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I mean, this isn't hypothetical. Plum made us all play his silly little game, and literally every said their top two suspects were Scare and VI. They were getting lynched.
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Yeah, my unprofessional opinion as the host that wasn't actually closely reading most of the game was that Plum's scan, at most, inverted the order of lynching between Scare/VI. Without it, I think that day probably would've been 70/30 in favor of lynching Scare, but I don't think it would've ended in any other outcome short of hilariously poor play on somebody's part (Or utterly brilliant play by Scare to get out of the lynch)
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