Current Events > Why isnt abortion considered murder/killing an unborn child?

(+) Yeah! (+)

When say, if a pregnant woman is shot and the unborn baby dies it is considered that 2 people were murdered?

toyota posted...

When say, if a pregnant woman is shot and the unborn baby dies it is considered that 2 people were murdered?

Generally speaking, in the second instance the mother was intending to have the baby. Although I kind of wonder if there would be some legal grounds for reducing it to a single count of homicide/murder if it can be shown that the mother had already chosen to get an abortion but simply hadn't had it yet.
---

Forcing people to give birth freaks me out way more than killing unborn babies. That's basically my entire argument for pro-choice.
---

Aristoph posted...

toyota posted...

When say, if a pregnant woman is shot and the unborn baby dies it is considered that 2 people were murdered?

Generally speaking, in the second instance the mother was intending to have the baby.

Pretty much this.

One of the aspects of pro-choice also includes the woman's ability to choose if it even counts as a baby at all. It's precisely for this reason that one can show sympathy for an expectant mother who lost the child she was carrying, but in the exact same breath support abortion under any circumstance.

It's not a case of hypocrisy or contradiction either, since again, it's about *her* choice and not yours or mine, or how every given choice is treated individually in turn. Just because some women want to have children doesn't mean all of them do, and it's silly to assume otherwise. Pro-choice to that end is malleable to the benefit of the person for whom it concerns the most, the woman, whereas pro-life has made it clear that it's a single and simple-minded approach that cares only for its own personal feelings, the woman be damned.
---

It is

You can't kill what isn't born
---

abortion is an issue of bodily autonomy. Forcing someone to remain pregnant violates her bodily autonomy. Just like you wouldnt force a woman to give one of her kidney's to her 2 year old to keep the kid alive, you shouldnt force a woman to remain pregnant if she chooses.
---

gunplagirl posted...

You can't kill what isn't born

So if someone kills the mother and baby then its only 1 count of murder since the baby wasnt born?
---

ColdOne666 posted...

gunplagirl posted...

You can't kill what isn't born

So if someone kills the mother and baby then its only 1 count of murder since the baby wasnt born?

Actually it depends on the state/country.

Some don't consider it double murder and some have a whole seperate crime. Others (Can you guess which?) do consider it flat out double murder.

For the record as always people are being a bit dense. I don't think anyone (well near anyone) would deny murder for second trimester babies. And I don't think anyone (well near anyone) wants to trivalize abortion and act like it's not a meaningful decision.

No matter how you look at it, abortion is preventing a life from existing (most likely). But there is an enormous difference between a mother doing that to a fetus inside of her using the human right to her own body and a hienious murderer doing that to some chick who called him poopface.

How come we are cool with your masturbating but yet would be upset if I castrated you?

This isn't really a difficult thing to comprehend. No matter what your politics are "How come you're pro-choice but then get uppity if I beat a pregnant woman to death with a crowbar?" has always been and aways will be an immensely stupid question.
---

Octaivian_Rex posted...

Forcing people to give birth freaks me out way more than killing unborn babies. That's basically my entire argument for pro-choice.

This to an extent. I am not a fan of telling people how to use their body and when to bring life into this world. Let's leave that shit to backwards nations stuck in the past. The only arguments against abortion are emotional and typically steeped in religion. There are practical reasons why homicide or robbery are illegal. There is no good reason to ban abortion. Conservative views on sex and procreation are consistently shown to have an adverse effect on society.
---

This guy is lazy even by the standards of the board's other trolls
---

hockeybub89 posted...

Octaivian_Rex posted...

Forcing people to give birth freaks me out way more than killing unborn babies. That's basically my entire argument for pro-choice.

This to an extent. I am not a fan of telling people how to use their body and when to bring life into this world. Let's leave that shit to backwards nations stuck in the past. The only arguments against abortion are emotional and typically steeped in religion. There are practical reasons why homicide or robbery are illegal. There is no good reason to ban abortion. Conservative views on sex and procreation are consistently shown to have an adverse effect on society.

so you're cool with aborting 8 month fetuses?
---

My mom and dad were a college couple that got pregnant after a while. My dad asked her to get an abortion because he wasn't ready to raise a child. She didn't want to. Dad said if she didn't he wouldn't date her anymore because he wasn't ready to settle down and live the parent lifestyle in his college years. Mom still didn't budge on it. Because of that, my dad bailed on her. But she still had me and raised me. And that is why I exist today.

So forgive me if I'm not exactly pro abortion. First of all, with all the contraceptive options these days, if you disregard them and get knocked up, I'm sorry, you gotta pay the price. Hate to sound cruel. We all are aware what happens when a guy busts in a girl without preventive measures. You knew what could happen and did it anyway. And even if you can't care for the child, there are couples who will do a surrogate situation. There's adoption. There are other options aside from ending a life before it's given a chance.

The only time I may entertain the idea of abortion is the incest/rape/danger to the mother situations.
---

UnfairRepresent posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Octaivian_Rex posted...

Forcing people to give birth freaks me out way more than killing unborn babies. That's basically my entire argument for pro-choice.

This to an extent. I am not a fan of telling people how to use their body and when to bring life into this world. Let's leave that shit to backwards nations stuck in the past. The only arguments against abortion are emotional and typically steeped in religion. There are practical reasons why homicide or robbery are illegal. There is no good reason to ban abortion. Conservative views on sex and procreation are consistently shown to have an adverse effect on society.

so you're cool with aborting 8 month fetuses?

Not really. You have to basically give birth to get rid of it at that point anyway. I view removal as the intention of an abortion with death to be a side effect. Aborting a fetus that could be born any day now is like shooting your son in the face while kicking him out of the house.
---

It is considered murder by like half of people, just not so much by the other half. But it's one of those classic big issue problems that's become so polarised that everyone's on either the pro-life side or the pro-choice side, not realising that both of these are wrong, and leaving very few people left to work out a better solution.

It comes down to how people define when life begins. Does it begin when the sperm makes contact with the egg to create the fetus? Or is it when the baby is born 9 months later?
---

WaterLink posted...

My mom and dad were a college couple that got pregnant after a while. My dad asked her to get an abortion because he wasn't ready to raise a child. She didn't want to. Dad said if she didn't he wouldn't date her anymore because he wasn't ready to settle down and live the parent lifestyle in his college years. Mom still didn't budge on it. Because of that, my dad bailed on her. But she still had me and raised me. And that is why I exist today.

Man your dad is a douche but that anecdote isn't really relevant to the abortion debate.

So forgive me if I'm not exactly pro abortion. First of all, with all the contraceptive options these days, if you disregard them and get knocked up, I'm sorry, you gotta pay the price. Hate to sound cruel.

Not just cruel but also stupid as the government is literally defunding programs that teach sex-ed and help people plan for (and how to avoid) pregnancy and puts a big promotion on things like abstinence.

The result of which is a mass increase in STDs and unwanted pregnancy, just like in Africa years ago.

The mindset you promote directly leads to more unwanted pregnancies and backalley abortions, it's not logic, it's emotion.

You can't look at pregnancy as a "Punishment" for having sex where you "pay the price." that absurd logic needs to die out.

And even if you can't care for the child, there are couples who will do a surrogate situation. There's adoption. There are other options aside from ending a life before it's given a chance.

There are more orphanages and adoption centers than suitable parents. Society is not at a point where more unwanted babies is beneficial. This is a handwave. "You should be forced to carry a baby against your will and against your rights because adoption exists" is a non-sequtiur that hurts good people.

The only time I may entertain the idea of abortion is the incest/rape/danger to the mother situations.

And you don't see the instant contradiction?

"I only exist because my mother was brave enough to carry an unwanted child. Oh wait in those circimstances it's cool to kill them."

IF your recongize that it's cool for your mother to get an abortion if she was raped or if your dad was your brother or it endangered her health, why do you decry that it would have been okay for her to do it if she had wanted to? And feel like that in that scenario she should have been forced against her will?

Why do you respect your mother so little?
---

Woodger posted...

It is considered murder by like half of people, just not so much by the other half. But it's one of those classic big issue problems that's become so polarised that everyone's on either the pro-life side or the pro-choice side, not realising that both of these are wrong, and leaving very few people left to work out a better solution.

This is also bullshit. We know the solution.

We've seen it in Africa and several other states/countries

The solution is as few unwanted pregnancies as possible via promotion of contraception, sex education and easy access to abortion.

Net result is always very few abortions which are done safely. Which is the net best goal for pro-life and pro-choicers.

The problem is people get caught up in emotion and atively work against the methods which achieve that goal.

xxdudeyy posted...

It comes down to how people define when life begins. Does it begin when the sperm makes contact with the egg to create the fetus? Or is it when the baby is born 9 months later?

Interesting as always that noone is willing to entertain that sperm is alive. Just so it's okay to masturbate.

But then conception is the start of life. So the woman suffers.

Awful convenient that. Almost sounds like a man just made it up or something.
---

UnfairRepresent posted...

Man your dad is a douche but that anecdote isn't really relevant to the abortion debate.

He is. Never met him until I was 5 and he had my sister with another woman and suddenly wanted my sister to have a playmate so conveniently he asked my mom to see me for the first time once this happened. He then later stole $100,000 from the credit union he worked at and got fired and put under house arrest. He's scum and we don't talk much anymore. Still communicate with my siblings on his side often, and my step mom is really nice actually, dunno what she sees in him personally.

UnfairRepresent posted...

Not just cruel but also stupid as the government is literally defunding programs that teach sex-ed and help people plan for (and how to avoid) pregnancy and puts a big promotion on things like abstinence.

The result of which is a mass increase in STDs and unwanted pregnancy, just like in Africa years ago.

The mindset you promote directly leads to more unwanted pregnancies and backalley abortions, it's not logic, it's emotion.

You can't look at pregnancy as a "Punishment" for having sex where you "pay the price." that absurd logic needs to die out.

I'm against defunding planned parenthood. Their contribution to sex education is very beneficial and they're not just some abortion clinic and I understand their contribution to the cause.

However, I'm not looking at pregnancy as a "punishment" like you claim. It is something that can happen and is a natural product of unprotected sex, and something that partners who engage in sex KNOW that can happen, and they STILL choose not to take precautions. So yes, if you actively know something can happen, and know there are many ways to prevent it, and actively choose not to take these preventive measures and engage in sex knowing what the consequences can be, then that is on you. You're accountable for that. It's not a "punishment". It's something you knew that could happen, and something you knew you could take preventive measures for, but chose not to.
---

UnfairRepresent posted...

There are more orphanages and adoption centers than suitable parents. Society is not at a point where more unwanted babies is beneficial. This is a handwave. "You should be forced to carry a baby against your will and against your rights because adoption exists" is a non-sequtiur that hurts good people.

Admittedly this is definitely something I'm on the fence about. Because excess supply is a problem and I've seen some bad stories about adoptive parents as well. Idk how much they can do though. They do pretty strict background checks on foster parents already. I'd like for them to extend the age for foster care a little more for those that don't get taken or for those that lost their parents in their teens. Like maybe to 21 or so. It's a tough subject, but at least they're still given a chance at life that they wouldn't have had otherwise.

UnfairRepresent posted...

And you don't see the instant contradiction?

"I only exist because my mother was brave enough to carry an unwanted child. Oh wait in those circimstances it's cool to kill them."

IF your recongize that it's cool for your mother to get an abortion if she was raped or if your dad was your brother or it endangered her health, why do you decry that it would have been okay for her to do it if she had wanted to? And feel like that in that scenario she should have been forced against her will?

Why do you respect your mother so little?

No I don't see the contradiction. My mother had consensual unprotected sex so she knew what the consequences would be. She didn't have incest with a much higher rate of birth defects and deformities, and her life wasn't in danger. And even then, I said I'd only entertain the notion, as in I wouldn't be 100% against it because I can understand the rationale.
---

UnfairRepresent posted...

Woodger posted...

It is considered murder by like half of people, just not so much by the other half. But it's one of those classic big issue problems that's become so polarised that everyone's on either the pro-life side or the pro-choice side, not realising that both of these are wrong, and leaving very few people left to work out a better solution.

This is also bullshit. We know the solution.

We've seen it in Africa and several other states/countries

The solution is as few unwanted pregnancies as possible via promotion of contraception, sex education and easy access to abortion.

Net result is always very few abortions which are done safely. Which is the net best goal for pro-life and pro-choicers.

The problem is people get caught up in emotion and atively work against the methods which achieve that goal.

Close but not far enough. Obviously as few abortions as possible is the aim and in the US at least abortion is at the lowest it's been since before it became popular, but there's still nearly 20% of pregnancies being aborted which is a lot.
More medical and societal progress with this in mind would be required to cut down further on the reasons people seek abortions in the first place. Until then everyone's still picking sides.

WaterLink posted...

It is something that can happen and is a natural product of unprotected sex, and something that partners who engage in sex KNOW that can happen, and they STILL choose not to take precautions.

How many people do you think really do this though? They're educated on all facets of sex and pregnancy and still decide "Hey, I'm gonna be unsafe about this cuz fuck it."

You don't think maybe accidental pregnancies are caused because the people involved have little to no or incorrect information on the subject (some people don't know that sex causes babies)? Or, y'know, that they tried to be safe and something went wrong?

And even if they did know and still had unsafe sex and the girl got pregnant and then she wants an abortion, don't you think that's saying something else right there? That some people think abortion is an appropriate birth control method? Sounds like some shit ass sex education there.

So yes, if you actively know something can happen, and know there are many ways to prevent it, and actively choose not to take these preventive measures and engage in sex knowing what the consequences can be, then that is on you. You're accountable for that. It's not a "punishment". It's something you knew that could happen, and something you knew you could take preventive measures for, but chose not to.

That sounds awfully like you want them to be punished to me. Once it gets past a certain point during the mistake you're not allowed to fix it anymore cuz you deserved it, bud. No more prevention of baby, just deal with it. Go through the ordeal of pregnancy and child birth even if you don't want to or can't afford it and just have that damn baby.
---

WaterLink posted...

He is. Never met him until I was 5 and he had my sister with another woman and suddenly wanted my sister to have a playmate so conveniently he asked my mom to see me for the first time once this happened. He then later stole $100,000 from the credit union he worked at and got fired and put under house arrest.

Jeez what an asswipe.

WaterLink posted...

However, I'm not looking at pregnancy as a "punishment" like you claim. It is something that can happen and is a natural product of unprotected sex, and something that partners who engage in sex KNOW that can happen, and they STILL choose not to take precautions.

with all the contraceptive options these days, if you disregard them and get knocked up, I'm sorry, you gotta pay the price.

You are looking at pregnancy as a punishment. That's literally what you're doing. You're saying if someone gets pregnant then you have to "pay the price for not using contraception." that's literally pregnancy being a punishment.

It's also ignoring that contraception isn't always a sure thing.

WaterLink posted...

Admittedly this is definitely something I'm on the fence about. Because excess supply is a problem and I've seen some bad stories about adoptive parents as well. Idk how much they can do though. They do pretty strict background checks on foster parents already. I'd like for them to extend the age for foster care a little more for those that don't get taken or for those that lost their parents in their teens. Like maybe to 21 or so. It's a tough subject, but at least they're still given a chance at life that they wouldn't have had otherwise.

They are given a chance at life at the cost of the violation of rights of others and harm to society.

I don't think that is a worthy trade off.

WaterLink posted...

No I don't see the contradiction

I didn't think you did.

You're balanacing "They deserve a right to life, her rights don't matter" and then go "Oh but when I feel I like that her rights matter and screw their right to life, who cares."

So right now if you discovered your asswipe dad was actually your uncle it would have been cool for your mom to abort you?

There is no logic behind these stances, only emotion. And they are playing fast and loose with the rights of women to their own bodies. That's a bad thing.

Woodger posted...

Close but not far enough. Obviously as few abortions as possible is the aim and in the US at least abortion is at the lowest it's been since before it became popular, but there's still nearly 20% of pregnancies being aborted which is a lot.

Yes but if you look at the research the states and age groups that are having the most abortions are the ones being hit hardest with conservative right-wing lack of sex ed, closure of PP and other sources of knowlege and limited access to abortion.

The reason why abortion rates are high in the US despite it being a first world bastion are because people aren't trying to stop abortions logically. They're trying to stake moral claims.

"No access to safe abortions, minimal education and we'll tell you to abstient, now if you get preggers it's a punishment and your fault." doesn't work.

The idea that because of this there is no way to marry Pro-life and pro-choicers is ridiclous. You can pretty easily, they actually want the same goal.
---

It's not a punishment. It's literally the product of fucking without protection or contraceptives and even then it's not guaranteed to happen seeing as couple who actually do try to have kids often have to try many times before they finally conceive. I'm all for people getting their rocks off, but if they choose to not use one of the many ways to prevent pregnancies despite being repeatedly told what can happen, it's not a punishment. It's something they brought on themselves. I believe in accountability.


It's like telling someone if you take a shower with your phone without a waterproof case, it will probably die on you. I mean sometimes they can actually not die in the shower without the case, but having the case will almost assuredly keep it safe. But you decide to take your phone in the shower without it's case, and then it dies. So when that phone dies, them not getting a free replacement isn't a "punishment" that is a result of them not heeding the warning they were given, and now they have to be accountable for their negligence. A gambler can't say he's being punished for losing all his money to justify why it happened. At some point, accountability needs to be taken. Accountability isn't punishment.
---

Inferno Dive Dragoon posted...

One of the aspects of pro-choice also includes the woman's ability to choose if it even counts as a baby at all.

life isn't really something you "choose"
---

WaterLink posted...

It's not a punishment. It's literally the product of fucking without protection or contraceptives and even then it's not guaranteed to happen seeing as couple who actually do try to have kids often have to try many times before they finally conceive. I'm all for people getting their rocks off, but if they choose to not use one of the many ways to prevent pregnancies despite being repeatedly told what can happen, it's not a punishment. It's something they brought on themselves. I believe in accountability.

You just keep saying "its not a punishment" and then describing it as a punishment.

At worst this is denial at best this is semantics. You're saying pregnancy is a punishment in everything but name. Something you have to endure regardless of rights, harm, money and society just because you did an action and this is the negative consequence we will force upon on you for that action.

That's a punishment.

Accountability is close to the opposite. Accountability is the mother getting a choice and dealing with the consequences of the choice she makes. And you oppose that.

It's like telling someone if you take a shower with your phone without a waterproof case, it will probably die on you. I mean sometimes they can actually not die in the shower without the case, but having the case will almost assuredly keep it safe. But you decide to take your phone in the shower without it's case, and then it dies. So when that phone dies, them not getting a free replacement isn't a "punishment" that is a result of them not heeding the warning they were given, and now they have to be accountable for their negligence. A gambler can't say he's being punished for losing all his money to justify why it happened. At some point, accountability needs to be taken. Accountability isn't punishment.

This metaphor doesn't work.

It's more like saying if someone damages their phone in the shower then they no longer are allowed to fix it and then have to eat the broken the phone so it's inside them hurting them. They're also not allowed to vote and have to pay $80,000.

A giant right violating non-sequitur with no logic that hurts people.
---

Rika_Furude posted...

Inferno Dive Dragoon posted...

One of the aspects of pro-choice also includes the woman's ability to choose if it even counts as a baby at all.

life isn't really something you "choose"

Yet you masturbate without hesitation.


Value of life is something you choose.

And most people don't value non-sentient life. The ones that do also do not do consistently. Largely only doing so in ways that benefit them and allow them to punish and get over others

Hence where the debate rages.
---

unfair trolling again
must be a day that ends in y
---

"Crap I have no argument for his point so I'll call him a troll"

Uhuh
---

the third word in your """argument""" was masturbate

you have no genuine, non-troll argument
---

Yes and it was completely valid.

What kind of comment is that?
---

I believe in accountability.

Then you should be totally fine with abortion because that's about the most responsible, accountable thing that one can do in that situation. In the event of an unwanted pregnancy, forcing it into being is about that most reckless, unwise thing that could happen because it either means;

A. The child is raised by a parent who resents it.
B. The child is dumped into the already over-crowded orphan/foster system.
C. The child is outright abandoned lord-knows-where and left to die.

For as much as pro-lifers prattle on about the "sacredness" of life, they have an unhealthy obsession with subjecting said life to misery, despair, and death regardless. All this and they rarely, if ever, show any concern for the actual woman being subjected to the rigors of pregnancy and childbirth. Quite the contrary, they love to equate the process as some sort of punishment that she "deserves". Funnier still when they emphasis its a punishment for *her* whole often conveniently ignoring the other half involved to cause said pregnancy. There's *always* a huge dust-up about how "SHE SHOULD BE FORCED TO CARRY IT" but seldomn will you hear a similar cry of "HE SHOULD BE FORCED TO SUPPORT IT". Speaking of that whole "fuck you, you're on your own" mentality... there's a staggeringly high number of pro-lifers that are also anti-welfare/assistance, *especially* towards single mothers. I'm sure you'll chalk that up to that whole "accountability" angle again, but I gotta ask how you expect someone in dire straits to be able to take care of a baby they didn't even want in the first place, unless you're specifically banking on the mother to ditch the kid one way or another.

So yeah, you'll forgive me if I call bullshit when pro-lifers make with all this faux compassion. Those people aren't fooling anyone but themselves when they pretend like they give a fuck about anything but their own feelings.
---

_Schwarzlicht_ posted...

WaterLink posted...

It is something that can happen and is a natural product of unprotected sex, and something that partners who engage in sex KNOW that can happen, and they STILL choose not to take precautions.

How many people do you think really do this though? They're educated on all facets of sex and pregnancy and still decide "Hey, I'm gonna be unsafe about this cuz fuck it."

You don't think maybe accidental pregnancies are caused because the people involved have little to no or incorrect information on the subject (some people don't know that sex causes babies)? Or, y'know, that they tried to be safe and something went wrong?

And even if they did know and still had unsafe sex and the girl got pregnant and then she wants an abortion, don't you think that's saying something else right there? That some people think abortion is an appropriate birth control method? Sounds like some shit ass sex education there.

So yes, if you actively know something can happen, and know there are many ways to prevent it, and actively choose not to take these preventive measures and engage in sex knowing what the consequences can be, then that is on you. You're accountable for that. It's not a "punishment". It's something you knew that could happen, and something you knew you could take preventive measures for, but chose not to.

That sounds awfully like you want them to be punished to me. Once it gets past a certain point during the mistake you're not allowed to fix it anymore cuz you deserved it, bud. No more prevention of baby, just deal with it. Go through the ordeal of pregnancy and child birth even if you don't want to or can't afford it and just have that damn baby.

The risk of pregnancy is present during any kind of sex

But especially unprotected. And I know, in my experience, they most people who claim "accident " do in fact say "fuck it, let's go unprotected because you love me/I'm horny/we have no condoms/You sweet talked me good enough /I don't like condoms"

Call it a generalization, but there are several ways to protect yourself that cut that chances of pregnancy down by 90% or more of you use them right. The problem is most people don't use them right or at all

UnfairRepresent posted...

WaterLink posted...

It's not a punishment. It's literally the product of fucking without protection or contraceptives and even then it's not guaranteed to happen seeing as couple who actually do try to have kids often have to try many times before they finally conceive. I'm all for people getting their rocks off, but if they choose to not use one of the many ways to prevent pregnancies despite being repeatedly told what can happen, it's not a punishment. It's something they brought on themselves. I believe in accountability.

You just keep saying "its not a punishment" and then describing it as a punishment.

At worst this is denial at best this is semantics. You're saying pregnancy is a punishment in everything but name. Something you have to endure regardless of rights, harm, money and society just because you did an action and this is the negative consequence we will force upon on you for that action.

That's a punishment.

Accountability is close to the opposite. Accountability is the mother getting a choice and dealing with the consequences of the choice she makes. And you oppose that.

It's like telling someone if you take a shower with your phone without a waterproof case, it will probably die on you. I mean sometimes they can actually not die in the shower without the case, but having the case will almost assuredly keep it safe. But you decide to take your phone in the shower without it's case, and then it dies. So when that phone dies, them not getting a free replacement isn't a "punishment" that is a result of them not heeding the warning they were given, and now they have to be accountable for their negligence. A gambler can't say he's being punished for losing all his money to justify why it happened. At some point, accountability needs to be taken. Accountability isn't punishment.

This metaphor doesn't work.

It's more like saying if someone damages their phone in the shower then they no longer are allowed to fix it and then have to eat the broken the phone so it's inside them hurting them. They're also not allowed to vote and have to pay $80,000.

A giant right violating non-sequitur with no logic that hurts people.

Your metaphor make a no sense

pun·ish·ment

ˈ
noun
the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.


Doesn't say anything about a natural consequence due to negligence. So pregnancy is not a "punishment".

Haldol posted...

noun
the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.


Doesn't say anything about a natural consequence due to negligence. So pregnancy is not a "punishment".

You keep just changing the name of the word you use but the thing is the same

"It's not a punishment, it's a natural consequence I force upon you as a punish....erm... It's a price you pay as a natural consequence which supercedes your rights that you have to endure at cost even though it hurts you and society"

That's just punishment.

As I said before at worst it's denial from people who don't have the balls to be honest.

At best it's semantics. The exact same meaning but you just want honeyed words to say it.

Just like people who refuse to call circumcision mutilation because it hurts their feelings
---

UnfairRepresent posted...

Haldol posted...

noun
the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.


Doesn't say anything about a natural consequence due to negligence. So pregnancy is not a "punishment".

You keep just changing the name of the word you use but the thing is the same

"It's not a punishment, it's a natural consequence I force upon you as a punish....erm... It's a price you pay as a natural consequence which supercedes your rights that you have to endure at cost even though it hurts you and society"

That's just punishment.

As I said before at worst it's denial from people who don't have the balls to be honest.

At best it's semantics. The exact same meaning but you just want honeyed words to say it.

Just like people who refuse to call circumcision mutilation because it hurts their feelings

How the fuck do you force someone to get pregnant?

And this has nothing to do with circumcision

If the woman chooses to end the life it is not murder
---

Haldol posted...

How the fuck do you force someone to get pregnant?

You don't. You force them to continue unwanted pregnancies. Against their will, and violating their rights at personal cost to them and society. That's called a punishment.

Although stopping sex ed and PP while promoting abstience sure helps someone get pregnant.

And this has nothing to do with circumcision

No but your logic does. The whole "Don't use that word because I don't like it even though it is accurate." thing
---

You guys are so cute when you argue.
---

UnfairRepresent posted...

Haldol posted...

How the fuck do you force someone to get pregnant?

You don't. You force them to continue unwanted pregnancies. Against their will, and violating their rights at personal cost to them and society. That's called a punishment.

Although stopping sex ed and PP while promoting abstience sure helps someone get pregnant.

And this has nothing to do with circumcision

No but your logic does. The whole "Don't use that word because I don't like it even though it is accurate." thing

Your simply not allowing them to violate the baby's right to live. What about them?

Also just because you're being emotional because you don't like natural consequences, doesn't mean it's a "punishment". Not is it one because politicians won't make it legal to kill babies or give you money to do it

Haldol posted...

Your simply not allowing them to violate the baby's right to live. What about them?

Mother's rights supercedes the rights of a non-sentient being that is inside of them.

Also just because you're being emotional because you don't like natural consequences, doesn't mean it's a "punishment".

Not allowing abortion because the woman "must pay the price of her natural consequences because I say so screw her rights" is a punishment

There is no way around that

Not is it one because politicians won't make it legal to kill babies or give you money to do it

Nobody wants to make it legal to kill babies.

This is kinda my point, you run 500 miles to pretend the words you are desribing aren't punishment, yet refer to aborting undeveloped fetuses as murdering babies.

This is why I brought up masturbation earlier and everyone including you ignored it. You don't value non-sentient sperm because that would be inconvient. But non-sentient fetus? That's a baby and the woman must face the consequences regardless of inconvience..

Says it all right there

It's just pure emotion and feelings. Not logical points
---

UnfairRepresent posted...

Haldol posted...

Your simply not allowing them to violate the baby's right to live. What about them?

Mother's rights supercedes the rights of a non-sentient being that is inside of them.

Also just because you're being emotional because you don't like natural consequences, doesn't mean it's a "punishment".

Not allowing abortion because the woman "must pay the price of her natural consequences because I say so screw her rights" is a punishment

There is no way around that

Not is it one because politicians won't make it legal to kill babies or give you money to do it

Nobody wants to make it legal to kill babies.

This is kinda my point, you run 500 miles to pretend the words you are desribing aren't punishment, yet refer to aborting undeveloped fetuses as murdering babies.

This is why I brought up masturbation earlier and everyone including you ignored it. You don't value non-sentient sperm because that would be inconvient. But non-sentient fetus? That's a baby and the woman must face the consequences regardless of inconvience..

Says it all right there

It's just pure emotion and feelings. Not logical points

What logic have you brought?? I have given you the definition of punishment and you keep trying to apply it where it doesn't fit. A punishment is an inflicted consequence due to a negative action in order to prevent or correct future negative behavior. Pregnancy from sex is not inflicted due sex. It is a natural occurrence. It is a risk that anyone having sex should be aware of. And me not donating to or voting for abortion is not me "punishing" anyone.

You're so called logic is that if a woman fucks up and doesn't try to prevent her pregnancy then we should help her abort (kill) the baby because she chooses so. You accuse me of changing words, but abortion is killing the baby. Especially after a certain point. Your emotions want you to make yourself feel better by claiming it to be something else.

And your masturbation point wasn't addressed to me. But depending on who you ask, there are many people who feel the same way toward that as well.

Haldol posted...

Your simply not allowing them to violate the baby's right to live. What about them?

The fetus has the same right to life that anyone else has, which is it has the right to life but not at the expense of someone else. If you cant force a parent to donate an organ to one of their children, you cant force a woman to remain pregnant.
---

bkkorps posted...

Haldol posted...

Your simply not allowing them to violate the baby's right to live. What about them?

The fetus has the same right to life that anyone else has, which is it has the right to life but not at the expense of someone else. If you cant force a parent to donate an organ to one of their children, you cant force a woman to remain pregnant.

Not the same

One of actively killing

The other is just refusing to intervene

However, I don't know any parent worth their salt who would not jump at the chance to donate an organ to their sick child if they needed it

Haldol posted...

"It's not punishment you guys, but it's totally murder. NO I AM NOT USING MY FEELINGS TO DICTATE WHEN CERTAIN WORDS ARE CONVENIENT WAHHH."

There's always a shit-posting pro-lifer in these kinds of topics. Always.
---

Haldol posted...

Not the same

One of actively killing

The other is just refusing to intervene

Both are using someone elses body to sustain the life of another person.


Haldol posted...

However, I don't know any parent worth their salt who would not jump at the chance to donate an organ to their sick child if they needed it

and you completely missed the point. The question isnt if the person should donate the organ, the question is if the government should force the parent to donate the organ.
---

WaterLink posted...

My mom and dad were a college couple that got pregnant after a while. My dad asked her to get an abortion because he wasn't ready to raise a child. She didn't want to. Dad said if she didn't he wouldn't date her anymore because he wasn't ready to settle down and live the parent lifestyle in his college years. Mom still didn't budge on it. Because of that, my dad bailed on her. But she still had me and raised me. And that is why I exist today.

So forgive me if I'm not exactly pro abortion. First of all, with all the contraceptive options these days, if you disregard them and get knocked up, I'm sorry, you gotta pay the price. Hate to sound cruel. We all are aware what happens when a guy busts in a girl without preventive measures. You knew what could happen and did it anyway. And even if you can't care for the child, there are couples who will do a surrogate situation. There's adoption. There are other options aside from ending a life before it's given a chance.

The only time I may entertain the idea of abortion is the incest/rape/danger to the mother situations.

A child's life shouldn't be a price someone pays for fucking up. That mentality is why there are so many unwanted kids in the world
---

Inferno Dive Dragoon posted...

Haldol posted...

"It's not punishment you guys, but it's totally murder. NO I AM NOT USING MY FEELINGS TO DICTATE WHEN CERTAIN WORDS ARE CONVENIENT WAHHH."

There's always a shit-posting pro-lifer in these kinds of topics. Always.

Your feelings hurts bub??

thronedfire2 posted...

WaterLink posted...

My mom and dad were a college couple that got pregnant after a while. My dad asked her to get an abortion because he wasn't ready to raise a child. She didn't want to. Dad said if she didn't he wouldn't date her anymore because he wasn't ready to settle down and live the parent lifestyle in his college years. Mom still didn't budge on it. Because of that, my dad bailed on her. But she still had me and raised me. And that is why I exist today.

So forgive me if I'm not exactly pro abortion. First of all, with all the contraceptive options these days, if you disregard them and get knocked up, I'm sorry, you gotta pay the price. Hate to sound cruel. We all are aware what happens when a guy busts in a girl without preventive measures. You knew what could happen and did it anyway. And even if you can't care for the child, there are couples who will do a surrogate situation. There's adoption. There are other options aside from ending a life before it's given a chance.

The only time I may entertain the idea of abortion is the incest/rape/danger to the mother situations.

A child's life shouldn't be a price someone pays for fucking up. That mentality is why there are so many unwanted kids in the world

You have sex, you make babies. That's what sex is for

Sorry that biology works that way and SJWs can't accept that.

Common sense would say that if you don't want babies then you either shouldn't fuck or you should do everything in your power to protect yourself when you do fuck.

Seems to me that just having yo go through a pregnancy or an abortion would be hard enough to deter people, but I guess not some people.

Sex is not used exclusively for making babies. It plays an important role in social relationships as well, for multiple species of social animal.
---