Current Events > Seattle's large minimum wage increases a disaster

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The Admiral 06/27/17 1:21:16 AM #51:	Liberal economics at work. "Let's give someone a wage that far outweighs their economic contribution. What could go wrong?" --- - The Admiral <cite>The Admiral posted [p:881879966] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>Liberal economics at work. "Let's give someone a wage that far outweighs their economic contribution. What could go wrong?"</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
fan357 06/27/17 1:26:58 AM #52:	Thrillwell posted... I love how people who don't even live near Seattle do research about it. That would be like me preaching about Boston. TBQH, the minimum wage has effected the game in ways not even mentioned. Big business has felt nothing at all, as most hire above $15/hr. More than any state I have ever worked in, Washington is a very competitive workplace. Take up slack or go home. People even conspire to kick others to the curb. It's fairly cutthroat from low wage all the way up. So imagine what happened when employees get paid more. Your connections that got you the job won't save you from the fire. Perform or get shitcanned. Aside from smaller food related establishments, (bakeries, niche eateries), the amount of employees hasn't lowered as much as people think. What a lot of companies are trying to do is send the wagers home early to compensate. Oh he had a full day Monday, so maybe call him/her off one day or send home early on Tuesday. Running a tight ship at any given moment while keeping spending down. Meanwhile Seattle itself is becoming the land of 6 figures. Such a giant tech boom that some companies have other hq in Tacoma just to handle it. So what of the burger flippers? It's rare to see anyone without braces in the drivethru now. You can be certain that instead of raises, it will just be a new face next time you stop by. Save for Starbucks that actually has a lil love for their employees. (a lil) Most importantly, Seattle and the rest of the state are in the middle of a major shift. Washington hasn't even agreed on the 2017-19 budget. All in all though, plenty of work to be found in Washington, and the state government is even setting up jobs in Seattle just for low income families in the near future. People who are writing these articles aren't taking everything into consideration either. My home's value is increasing $40k per year. Write about that Washington Post. But LIBERALS --- Everything will be alright. <cite>fan357 posted [p:881880169] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Thrillwell posted...</cite> <quote>I love how people who don't even live near Seattle do research about it. That would be like me preaching about Boston. TBQH, the minimum wage has effected the game in ways not even mentioned. Big business has felt nothing at all, as most hire above $15/hr. More than any state I have ever worked in, Washington is a very competitive workplace. Take up slack or go home. People even conspire to kick others to the curb. It's fairly cutthroat from low wage all the way up. So imagine what happened when employees get paid more. Your connections that got you the job won't save you from the fire. Perform or get shitcanned. Aside from smaller food related establishments, (bakeries, niche eateries), the amount of employees hasn't lowered as much as people think. What a lot of companies are trying to do is send the wagers home early to compensate. Oh he had a full day Monday, so maybe call him/her off one day or send home early on Tuesday. Running a tight ship at any given moment while keeping spending down. Meanwhile Seattle itself is becoming the land of 6 figures. Such a giant tech boom that some companies have other hq in Tacoma just to handle it. So what of the burger flippers? It's rare to see anyone without braces in the drivethru now. You can be certain that instead of raises, it will just be a new face next time you stop by. Save for Starbucks that actually has a lil love for their employees. (a lil) Most importantly, Seattle and the rest of the state are in the middle of a major shift. Washington hasn't even agreed on the 2017-19 budget. All in all though, plenty of work to be found in Washington, and the state government is even setting up jobs in Seattle just for low income families in the near future. People who are writing these articles aren't taking everything into consideration either. My home's value is increasing $40k per year. Write about that Washington Post.</quote> But LIBERALS</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Thrillwell 06/27/17 1:31:47 AM #53:	turn toward the back in the book of liberal it always ends the same they eventually eat and destroy one another --- Novus Ordo Seclorum <cite>Thrillwell posted [p:881880353] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>turn toward the back in the book of liberal it always ends the same they eventually eat and destroy one another</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mal_Fet 06/27/17 5:09:25 AM #54:	Thrillwell posted... I love how people who don't even live near Seattle do research about it. That would be like me preaching about Boston. TBQH, the minimum wage has effected the game in ways not even mentioned. Big business has felt nothing at all, as most hire above $15/hr. More than any state I have ever worked in, Washington is a very competitive workplace. Take up slack or go home. People even conspire to kick others to the curb. It's fairly cutthroat from low wage all the way up. So imagine what happened when employees get paid more. Your connections that got you the job won't save you from the fire. Perform or get shitcanned. Aside from smaller food related establishments, (bakeries, niche eateries), the amount of employees hasn't lowered as much as people think. What a lot of companies are trying to do is send the wagers home early to compensate. Oh he had a full day Monday, so maybe call him/her off one day or send home early on Tuesday. Running a tight ship at any given moment while keeping spending down. Meanwhile Seattle itself is becoming the land of 6 figures. Such a giant tech boom that some companies have other hq in Tacoma just to handle it. So what of the burger flippers? It's rare to see anyone without braces in the drivethru now. You can be certain that instead of raises, it will just be a new face next time you stop by. Save for Starbucks that actually has a lil love for their employees. (a lil) Most importantly, Seattle and the rest of the state are in the middle of a major shift. Washington hasn't even agreed on the 2017-19 budget. All in all though, plenty of work to be found in Washington, and the state government is even setting up jobs in Seattle just for low income families in the near future. People who are writing these articles aren't taking everything into consideration either. My home's value is increasing $40k per year. Write about that Washington Post. Your anecdotal evidence definitely proves the source in the OP wrong since you happen to reside in Seattle. Or something. --- Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell <cite>Mal_Fet posted [p:881886070] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Thrillwell posted...</cite> <quote>I love how people who don't even live near Seattle do research about it. That would be like me preaching about Boston. TBQH, the minimum wage has effected the game in ways not even mentioned. Big business has felt nothing at all, as most hire above $15/hr. More than any state I have ever worked in, Washington is a very competitive workplace. Take up slack or go home. People even conspire to kick others to the curb. It's fairly cutthroat from low wage all the way up. So imagine what happened when employees get paid more. Your connections that got you the job won't save you from the fire. Perform or get shitcanned. Aside from smaller food related establishments, (bakeries, niche eateries), the amount of employees hasn't lowered as much as people think. What a lot of companies are trying to do is send the wagers home early to compensate. Oh he had a full day Monday, so maybe call him/her off one day or send home early on Tuesday. Running a tight ship at any given moment while keeping spending down. Meanwhile Seattle itself is becoming the land of 6 figures. Such a giant tech boom that some companies have other hq in Tacoma just to handle it. So what of the burger flippers? It's rare to see anyone without braces in the drivethru now. You can be certain that instead of raises, it will just be a new face next time you stop by. Save for Starbucks that actually has a lil love for their employees. (a lil) Most importantly, Seattle and the rest of the state are in the middle of a major shift. Washington hasn't even agreed on the 2017-19 budget. All in all though, plenty of work to be found in Washington, and the state government is even setting up jobs in Seattle just for low income families in the near future. People who are writing these articles aren't taking everything into consideration either. My home's value is increasing $40k per year. Write about that Washington Post.</quote> Your anecdotal evidence definitely proves the source in the OP wrong since you happen to reside in Seattle. Or something.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
The Admiral 06/27/17 8:54:28 AM #55:	Here's another source reporting on this: https://qz.com/1014759/seattles-minimum-wage-increase-made-the-most-vulnerable-workers-poorer/ Seattle’s minimum-wage increase made the most vulnerable workers poorer I'm truly shocked... Yet another left-wing policy that ends up hurting the very people its intended to help. --- - The Admiral <cite>The Admiral posted [p:881890922] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>Here's another source reporting on this: https://qz.com/1014759/seattles-minimum-wage-increase-made-the-most-vulnerable-workers-poorer/ <quote>Seattle’s minimum-wage increase made the most vulnerable workers poorer</quote> I'm truly shocked... Yet another left-wing policy that ends up hurting the very people its intended to help.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Antifar 06/27/17 9:40:13 AM #56:	https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/06/27/seattles-higher-minimum-wage-is-actually-working-just-fine/ One would do well to dismiss these naysayers. The new study’s findings are out of step with a large body of research pertinent to Seattle’s minimum wage increase, and the study has important limitations. Another recent study without those limitations, from Michael Reich, Sylvia Allegretto and Anna Godoey at the University of California at Berkeley, is more consistent with other research and shows that Seattle’s minimum wage is having its intended effects. The Berkeley study also squares with the lived experiences of people across the country who overwhelmingly support making businesses provide fairer pay for a hard day’s work. Using confidential payroll data from the Washington Employment Security Department, the researchers compare employment, hours and wages of workers in Seattle and various other parts of Washington both before and after Seattle began raising its minimum wage. They argue that Seattle’s minimum wage increase reduced the total hours worked by Seattle’s low-wage workforce by about 9 percent. They also contend that the increase raised low-wage workers’ wages by only about 3 percent, implying that the costs of this wage hike outweighed its benefits for these workers. But the idea that raising the minimum wage has a much larger effect on hours than on wages strains credulity, especially since, as economists Ben Zipperer and John Schmitt have noted, Seattle’s increase “is within the range of increases that other research has found to have had little to no effect on employment.” The study also finds that the minimum wage caused large employment and hours gains in higher-wage jobs, which suggests that its “methodology fails to account properly for the booming Seattle labor market during the period studied.” It’s not entirely clear why the University of Washington team gets such a weird result — since their data isn’t public, we can’t check it — but it’s worth noting at least two important issues with their study. First, their data exclude workers at businesses that have more than one location; in other words, while workers at a standalone mom-and-pop restaurant show up in their results, workers at Starbucks and McDonald’s don’t. Almost 40 percent of workers in Washington state work at multi-location businesses, and since Seattle’s minimum wage increase has been larger at large businesses than at small ones — right now, a worker at a company with more than 500 employees is guaranteed $13.50 an hour, while a worker at a company with fewer than 500 employees is guaranteed only $11 an hour — these workers’ exclusion from the study’s results is an especially germane problem (note that low-wage workers in Seattle have had an incentive to switch from small firms to large firms since the minimum wage started rising). In earlier work, in fact, the University of Washington team’s results were different depending on whether these workers were included in their analysis; including them made the effects of the minimum wage look more positive. Second, the University of Washington team does not present enough data for us to assess the validity of its “synthetic control” in Washington — that is, the set of areas to which they compare the results they observe in Seattle. The Seattle labor market is not necessarily comparable to other labor markets in the state, and given some of the researchers’ implausible results, it’s hard to believe the comparison group they chose is an appropriate one. --- an aspirin the size of the sun. <cite>Antifar posted [p:881892494] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/06/27/seattles-higher-minimum-wage-is-actually-working-just-fine/ <quote>One would do well to dismiss these naysayers. The new study’s findings are out of step with a large body of research pertinent to Seattle’s minimum wage increase, and the study has important limitations. Another recent study without those limitations, from Michael Reich, Sylvia Allegretto and Anna Godoey at the University of California at Berkeley, is more consistent with other research and shows that Seattle’s minimum wage is having its intended effects. The Berkeley study also squares with the lived experiences of people across the country who overwhelmingly support making businesses provide fairer pay for a hard day’s work. Using confidential payroll data from the Washington Employment Security Department, the researchers compare employment, hours and wages of workers in Seattle and various other parts of Washington both before and after Seattle began raising its minimum wage. They argue that Seattle’s minimum wage increase reduced the total hours worked by Seattle’s low-wage workforce by about 9 percent. They also contend that the increase raised low-wage workers’ wages by only about 3 percent, implying that the costs of this wage hike outweighed its benefits for these workers. But the idea that raising the minimum wage has a much larger effect on hours than on wages strains credulity, especially since, as economists Ben Zipperer and John Schmitt have noted, Seattle’s increase “is within the range of increases that other research has found to have had little to no effect on employment.” The study also finds that the minimum wage caused large employment and hours gains in higher-wage jobs, which suggests that its “methodology fails to account properly for the booming Seattle labor market during the period studied.” It’s not entirely clear why the University of Washington team gets such a weird result — since their data isn’t public, we can’t check it — but it’s worth noting at least two important issues with their study. First, their data exclude workers at businesses that have more than one location; in other words, while workers at a standalone mom-and-pop restaurant show up in their results, workers at Starbucks and McDonald’s don’t. Almost 40 percent of workers in Washington state work at multi-location businesses, and since Seattle’s minimum wage increase has been larger at large businesses than at small ones — right now, a worker at a company with more than 500 employees is guaranteed $13.50 an hour, while a worker at a company with fewer than 500 employees is guaranteed only $11 an hour — these workers’ exclusion from the study’s results is an especially germane problem (note that low-wage workers in Seattle have had an incentive to switch from small firms to large firms since the minimum wage started rising). In earlier work, in fact, the University of Washington team’s results were different depending on whether these workers were included in their analysis; including them made the effects of the minimum wage look more positive. Second, the University of Washington team does not present enough data for us to assess the validity of its “synthetic control” in Washington — that is, the set of areas to which they compare the results they observe in Seattle. The Seattle labor market is not necessarily comparable to other labor markets in the state, and given some of the researchers’ implausible results, it’s hard to believe the comparison group they chose is an appropriate one.</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
John_Galt 06/27/17 9:46:22 AM #57:	Engineer_Gamer posted... people are now getting by with slightly less money but for moderately less time spent working and this is an outrage I know, right It's gives them more time to find a second job --- Who is John Galt? <cite>John_Galt posted [p:881892746] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Engineer_Gamer posted...</cite> <quote>people are now getting by with slightly less money but for moderately less time spent working and this is an outrage</quote> I know, right It's gives them more time to find a second job</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 06/27/17 10:09:39 AM #58:	Antifar posted... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/06/27/seattles-higher-minimum-wage-is-actually-working-just-fine/ One would do well to dismiss these naysayers. The new study’s findings are out of step with a large body of research pertinent to Seattle’s minimum wage increase, and the study has important limitations. Another recent study without those limitations, from Michael Reich, Sylvia Allegretto and Anna Godoey at the University of California at Berkeley, is more consistent with other research and shows that Seattle’s minimum wage is having its intended effects. The Berkeley study also squares with the lived experiences of people across the country who overwhelmingly support making businesses provide fairer pay for a hard day’s work. ... But the idea that raising the minimum wage has a much larger effect on hours than on wages strains credulity, especially since, as economists Ben Zipperer and John Schmitt have noted, Seattle’s increase “is within the range of increases that other research has found to have had little to no effect on employment.” The study also finds that the minimum wage caused large employment and hours gains in higher-wage jobs, which suggests that its “methodology fails to account properly for the booming Seattle labor market during the period studied.” It’s not entirely clear why the University of Washington team gets such a weird result — since their data isn’t public, we can’t check it — but it’s worth noting at least two important issues with their study. First, their data exclude workers at businesses that have more than one location; in other words, while workers at a standalone mom-and-pop restaurant show up in their results, workers at Starbucks and McDonald’s don’t. Almost 40 percent of workers in Washington state work at multi-location businesses, and since Seattle’s minimum wage increase has been larger at large businesses than at small ones — right now, a worker at a company with more than 500 employees is guaranteed $13.50 an hour, while a worker at a company with fewer than 500 employees is guaranteed only $11 an hour — these workers’ exclusion from the study’s results is an especially germane problem (note that low-wage workers in Seattle have had an incentive to switch from small firms to large firms since the minimum wage started rising). In earlier work, in fact, the University of Washington team’s results were different depending on whether these workers were included in their analysis; including them made the effects of the minimum wage look more positive. Second, the University of Washington team does not present enough data for us to assess the validity of its “synthetic control” in Washington — that is, the set of areas to which they compare the results they observe in Seattle. The Seattle labor market is not necessarily comparable to other labor markets in the state, and given some of the researchers’ implausible results, it’s hard to believe the comparison group they chose is an appropriate one. so using data that excludes multi-site firms is bad because they only account for 60% of workers in Seattle, which means its preferable to use data exclusively from food service firms? that's what the study they linked to does, and its what most min. wage studies do. do you think the food industry employs more than 60% of the workforce in Seattle? if not, how does the same accusation not hold exactly as strongly towards the study they themselves are citing? --- He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:881893782] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/06/27/seattles-higher-minimum-wage-is-actually-working-just-fine/ <quote>One would do well to dismiss these naysayers. The new study’s findings are out of step with a large body of research pertinent to Seattle’s minimum wage increase, and the study has important limitations. Another recent study without those limitations, from Michael Reich, Sylvia Allegretto and Anna Godoey at the University of California at Berkeley, is more consistent with other research and shows that Seattle’s minimum wage is having its intended effects. The Berkeley study also squares with the lived experiences of people across the country who overwhelmingly support making businesses provide fairer pay for a hard day’s work. ... But the idea that raising the minimum wage has a much larger effect on hours than on wages strains credulity, especially since, as economists Ben Zipperer and John Schmitt have noted, Seattle’s increase “is within the range of increases that other research has found to have had little to no effect on employment.” The study also finds that the minimum wage caused large employment and hours gains in higher-wage jobs, which suggests that its “methodology fails to account properly for the booming Seattle labor market during the period studied.” It’s not entirely clear why the University of Washington team gets such a weird result — since their data isn’t public, we can’t check it — but it’s worth noting at least two important issues with their study. First, their data exclude workers at businesses that have more than one location; in other words, while workers at a standalone mom-and-pop restaurant show up in their results, workers at Starbucks and McDonald’s don’t. Almost 40 percent of workers in Washington state work at multi-location businesses, and since Seattle’s minimum wage increase has been larger at large businesses than at small ones — right now, a worker at a company with more than 500 employees is guaranteed $13.50 an hour, while a worker at a company with fewer than 500 employees is guaranteed only $11 an hour — these workers’ exclusion from the study’s results is an especially germane problem (note that low-wage workers in Seattle have had an incentive to switch from small firms to large firms since the minimum wage started rising). In earlier work, in fact, the University of Washington team’s results were different depending on whether these workers were included in their analysis; including them made the effects of the minimum wage look more positive. Second, the University of Washington team does not present enough data for us to assess the validity of its “synthetic control” in Washington — that is, the set of areas to which they compare the results they observe in Seattle. The Seattle labor market is not necessarily comparable to other labor markets in the state, and given some of the researchers’ implausible results, it’s hard to believe the comparison group they chose is an appropriate one.</quote></quote> so using data that excludes multi-site firms is bad because they only account for 60% of workers in Seattle, which means its preferable to use data exclusively from food service firms? that's what the study they linked to does, and its what most min. wage studies do. do you think the food industry employs more than 60% of the workforce in Seattle? if not, how does the same accusation not hold exactly as strongly towards the study they themselves are citing?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 06/27/17 10:13:17 AM #59:	JustMyOpinion posted... What a shock. Businesses tend to function better with less restrictions. to a certain extent, sure. extremes in either direction are bad, though. having no restrictions is terrible, just like having too many. --- Now Playing: Persona 5 (PS4), The Old Blood (PC) *(~);} - Get out the pans, don't just stand there dreamin' - {;(~)* <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:881893937] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>JustMyOpinion posted...</cite> <quote>What a shock. Businesses tend to function better with less restrictions.</quote> to a certain extent, sure. extremes in either direction are bad, though. having no restrictions is terrible, just like having too many.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Broseph_Stalin 06/27/17 11:56:41 AM #63:	M_Live posted... It can't be both so which is it Perhaps it's the side that's always wrong. <cite>Broseph_Stalin posted [p:881898815] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>M_Live posted...</cite> <quote> It can't be both so which is it</quote> Perhaps it's the side that's always wrong.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MutantJohn 06/27/17 11:59:16 AM #64:	The study, published as a working paper Monday by the National Bureau of EconomicResearch, has not yet been peer reviewed. Lol, awesome. Edit: Ooh, and even better: The paper's conclusions contradict years of research on the minimum wage. Many past studies, by contrast, havefound that the benefits of increases for low-wage workers exceed the costs in terms of reduced employment -- often by a factor of four or five to one. The more I read of the article the more it seems like this is a sensationalist piece. The whole thing is based off of speculation and includes random hear-say. Pretty shitty journalism overall, ignoring which side "winning" or "losing". --- "Oh, my mother; oh, my friends, ask the angels, will I ever see heaven again?" - Laura Marling <cite>MutantJohn posted [p:881898946] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><quote>The study, published as a working paper Monday by the National Bureau of EconomicResearch, has not yet been peer reviewed.</quote> Lol, awesome. Edit: Ooh, and even better: <quote>The paper's conclusions contradict years of research on the minimum wage. Many past studies, by contrast, havefound that the benefits of increases for low-wage workers exceed the costs in terms of reduced employment -- often by a factor of four or five to one.</quote> The more I read of the article the more it seems like this is a sensationalist piece. The whole thing is based off of speculation and includes random hear-say. Pretty shitty journalism overall, ignoring which side "winning" or "losing".</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 06/27/17 12:00:31 PM #65:	lol you guys are the worst --- He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:881899008] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>lol you guys are the worst</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Unsugarized_Foo 06/27/17 12:02:12 PM #66:	emblem boy posted... Balrog0 posted... if you google the title and go through there you can read it When Seattle officials voted three years ago to incrementally boost the city's minimum wage up to $15 an hour, they'd hoped to improve the lives of low-income workers. Yet according to a major new study that could force economists to reassess past research on the issue, the hike has had the opposite effect. The city is gradually increasing the hourly minimum to $15 over several years. Already, though, some employers have not been able to afford the increased minimums. They've cut their payrolls, putting off new hiring, reducing hours or letting their workers go, the study found. The costs to low-wage workers in Seattle outweighed the benefits by a ratio of three to one, according to the study, conducted by a group of economists at the University of Washington who were commissioned by the city. The study, published as a working paper Monday by the National Bureau of Economic Research, has not yet been peer reviewed. to quote myself in my other topic: Balrog0 posted... http://www.nber.org/papers/w23532 This paper evaluates the wage, employment, and hours effects of the first and second phase-in of the Seattle Minimum Wage Ordinance, which raised the minimum wage from $9.47 to $11 per hour in 2015 and to $13 per hour in 2016. Using a variety of methods to analyze employment in all sectors paying below a specified real hourly rate, we conclude that the second wage increase to $13 reduced hours worked in low-wage jobs by around 9 percent, while hourly wages in such jobs increased by around 3 percent. Consequently, total payroll fell for such jobs, implying that the minimum wage ordinance lowered low-wage employeesâ€™ earnings by an average of $125 per month in 2016. Evidence attributes more modest effects to the first wage increase. We estimate an effect of zero when analyzing employment in the restaurant industry at all wage levels, comparable to many prior studies. interesting Does the study say which kind of minimum wage jobs this is affecting the most? Thay last sentence is saying this increase isn't impactingâ€‹ restaurants right? I'm just confused by how you hire less people, cut hours, and still pay your current employees less in a month. Business always wins! --- "All I have is my balls and my word, and I don't break them for anyone!"-Tony Montana <cite>Unsugarized_Foo posted [p:881899089] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>emblem boy posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>if you google the title and go through there you can read it When Seattle officials voted three years ago to incrementally boost the city's minimum wage up to $15 an hour, they'd hoped to improve the lives of low-income workers. Yet according to a major new study that could force economists to reassess past research on the issue, the hike has had the opposite effect. The city is gradually increasing the hourly minimum to $15 over several years. Already, though, some employers have not been able to afford the increased minimums. They've cut their payrolls, putting off new hiring, reducing hours or letting their workers go, the study found. The costs to low-wage workers in Seattle outweighed the benefits by a ratio of three to one, according to the study, conducted by a group of economists at the University of Washington who were commissioned by the city. The study, published as a working paper Monday by the National Bureau of Economic Research, has not yet been peer reviewed. to quote myself in my other topic: <cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote> http://www.nber.org/papers/w23532 This paper evaluates the wage, employment, and hours effects of the first and second phase-in of the Seattle Minimum Wage Ordinance, which raised the minimum wage from $9.47 to $11 per hour in 2015 and to $13 per hour in 2016. Using a variety of methods to analyze employment in all sectors paying below a specified real hourly rate, we conclude that the second wage increase to $13 reduced hours worked in low-wage jobs by around 9 percent, while hourly wages in such jobs increased by around 3 percent. Consequently, total payroll fell for such jobs, implying that the minimum wage ordinance lowered low-wage employeesâ€™ earnings by an average of $125 per month in 2016. Evidence attributes more modest effects to the first wage increase. We estimate an effect of zero when analyzing employment in the restaurant industry at all wage levels, comparable to many prior studies. interesting</quote></quote> Does the study say which kind of minimum wage jobs this is affecting the most? Thay last sentence is saying this increase isn't impactingâ€‹ restaurants right?</quote> I'm just confused by how you hire less people, cut hours, and still pay your current employees less in a month. Business always wins!</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Twin3Turbo 06/27/17 12:11:46 PM #67:	Broseph_Stalin posted... M_Live posted... It can't be both so which is it Perhaps it's the side that's always wrong. Gonna have to be more specific bro --- https://imgflip.com/gif/di4a4 <cite>Twin3Turbo posted [p:881899558] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Broseph_Stalin posted...</cite> <quote><cite>M_Live posted...</cite> <quote> It can't be both so which is it</quote> Perhaps it's the side that's always wrong.</quote> Gonna have to be more specific bro</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dragonblade01 06/27/17 12:18:42 PM #68:	The important thing is that we can use this to call the other party idiots while we pretend to care. --- PSN: kazukifafner <cite>Dragonblade01 posted [p:881899928] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>The important thing is that we can use this to call the other party idiots while we pretend to care.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 06/27/17 12:19:02 PM #69:	Dragonblade01 posted... The important thing is that we can use this to call the other party idiots whike we pretend to care. nodding sagely --- He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:881899946] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Dragonblade01 posted...</cite> <quote>The important thing is that we can use this to call the other party idiots whike we pretend to care.</quote> nodding sagely</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Broseph_Stalin 06/27/17 12:20:50 PM #70:	Twin3Turbo posted... Gonna have to be more specific bro Maybe minimum wage increases hurt the economy even though we've been doing it for over a hundred years. Or maybe conservatives are wrong about something. It is a mystery. <cite>Broseph_Stalin posted [p:881900036] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Twin3Turbo posted...</cite> <quote>Gonna have to be more specific bro</quote> Maybe minimum wage increases hurt the economy even though we've been doing it for over a hundred years. Or maybe conservatives are wrong about something. It is a mystery.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Annihilated 06/27/17 12:26:15 PM #72:	GregShmedley posted... Broseph_Stalin posted... Twin3Turbo posted... Gonna have to be more specific bro Maybe minimum wage increases hurt the economy even though we've been doing it for over a hundred years. Or maybe conservatives are wrong about something. It is a mystery. Or maybe, increasing it so drastically in a rapid pace isn't the way to go? How about looking at it like that instead of blatant partisan hackery? He's literally named after a communist. Don't even respond. <cite>Annihilated posted [p:881900324] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>GregShmedley posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Broseph_Stalin posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Twin3Turbo posted...</cite> <quote>Gonna have to be more specific bro</quote> Maybe minimum wage increases hurt the economy even though we've been doing it for over a hundred years. Or maybe conservatives are wrong about something. It is a mystery.</quote> Or maybe, increasing it so drastically in a rapid pace isn't the way to go? How about looking at it like that instead of blatant partisan hackery?</quote> He's literally named after a communist. Don't even respond.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
voldothegr8 06/27/17 12:26:24 PM #73:	Broseph_Stalin posted... Twin3Turbo posted... Gonna have to be more specific bro Maybe minimum wage increases hurt the economy even though we've been doing it for over a hundred years. Or maybe conservatives are wrong about something. It is a mystery. It took 80 years for federal minimum wage to go from a quarter to where it's at today, $7.25. It has never in history been straight up doubled or close to it. But sure keep pushing the narrative that "history has shown it won't hurt anything" even though doubling it has never been done in history. --- Oda break tracker 2017- 5 (2) Super Mario Maker Profile: 1237-0000-0073-02FE <cite>voldothegr8 posted [p:881900338] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Broseph_Stalin posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Twin3Turbo posted...</cite> <quote>Gonna have to be more specific bro</quote> Maybe minimum wage increases hurt the economy even though we've been doing it for over a hundred years. Or maybe conservatives are wrong about something. It is a mystery.</quote> It took 80 years for federal minimum wage to go from a quarter to where it's at today, $7.25. It has never in history been straight up doubled or close to it. But sure keep pushing the narrative that "history has shown it won't hurt anything" even though doubling it has never been done in history.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel 06/27/17 12:38:30 PM #74:	Antifar posted... rekt --- peanut butter and dick <cite>averagejoel posted [p:881900970] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> rekt</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 06/27/17 12:46:07 PM #75:	itt conservatives make themselves look stupid, leftists follow shortly after --- He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:881901400] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>itt conservatives make themselves look stupid, leftists follow shortly after</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
gamepimp12 06/27/17 12:49:39 PM #76:	I'm not sure minimum wage needs to be = to standard cost of living, but it surely shouldn't be half of it. --- we rich now but used to be slaves,we pushing whips now we used to be whipped,rockin chains when we used to be in 'em <cite>gamepimp12 posted [p:881901587] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>I'm not sure minimum wage needs to be = to standard cost of living, but it surely shouldn't be half of it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Webmaster4531 06/27/17 12:51:46 PM #77:	Economic studies are always shit to make whoever's paying for it happy. --- Ad Hominem. <cite>Webmaster4531 posted [p:881901691] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>Economic studies are always shit to make whoever's paying for it happy.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MutantJohn 06/27/17 12:57:59 PM #78:	The issue is, minimum wage was stronger in the past. That's just an awful sign outright and shows how our economy has weakened. Republican or Democrat, the weakening of a wage is incredibly problematic. --- "Oh, my mother; oh, my friends, ask the angels, will I ever see heaven again?" - Laura Marling <cite>MutantJohn posted [p:881902006] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>The issue is, minimum wage was stronger in the past. That's just an awful sign outright and shows how our economy has weakened. Republican or Democrat, the weakening of a wage is incredibly problematic.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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mario2000 06/27/17 1:25:24 PM #80:	idk maybe the government should just make it easier to obtain goods, services, and basic necessities so that way the minimum wage won't really matter but that would be socialism --- Arrrr the SS Goku, Mighty fine boat... -fatmatt Hope Frieza doesn't chuck an Iceberg at the Goku, otherwise it's all over. -Nekoslash <cite>mario2000 posted [p:881903429] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>idk maybe the government should just make it easier to obtain goods, services, and basic necessities so that way the minimum wage won't really matter but that would be socialism</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MutantJohn 06/27/17 1:48:12 PM #81:	JustMyOpinion posted... MutantJohn posted... The issue is, minimum wage was stronger in the past. That's just an awful sign outright and shows how our economy has weakened. Republican or Democrat, the weakening of a wage is incredibly problematic. Who's to say the minimum wage in the past was the correct number? There's a reason why the phrase "Make America Great Again" has become so popular. --- "Oh, my mother; oh, my friends, ask the angels, will I ever see heaven again?" - Laura Marling <cite>MutantJohn posted [p:881904802] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>JustMyOpinion posted...</cite> <quote><cite>MutantJohn posted...</cite> <quote>The issue is, minimum wage was stronger in the past. That's just an awful sign outright and shows how our economy has weakened. Republican or Democrat, the weakening of a wage is incredibly problematic.</quote> Who's to say the minimum wage in the past was the correct number?</quote> There's a reason why the phrase "Make America Great Again" has become so popular.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Webmaster4531 06/27/17 1:50:42 PM #82:	MutantJohn posted... JustMyOpinion posted... MutantJohn posted... The issue is, minimum wage was stronger in the past. That's just an awful sign outright and shows how our economy has weakened. Republican or Democrat, the weakening of a wage is incredibly problematic. Who's to say the minimum wage in the past was the correct number? There's a reason why the phrase "Make America Great Again" has become so popular. What do racists that don't like how many hispanics there are in the U.S. have to do with anything? --- Ad Hominem. <cite>Webmaster4531 posted [p:881904978] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>MutantJohn posted...</cite> <quote><cite>JustMyOpinion posted...</cite> <quote><cite>MutantJohn posted...</cite> <quote>The issue is, minimum wage was stronger in the past. That's just an awful sign outright and shows how our economy has weakened. Republican or Democrat, the weakening of a wage is incredibly problematic.</quote> Who's to say the minimum wage in the past was the correct number?</quote> There's a reason why the phrase "Make America Great Again" has become so popular.</quote> What do racists that don't like how many hispanics there are in the U.S. have to do with anything?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
AlephZero 06/27/17 1:50:49 PM #83:	mario2000 posted... idk maybe the government should just make it easier to obtain goods, services, and basic necessities so that way the minimum wage won't really matter but that would be socialism worked in venezuela --- "There is value in segregation." - qwertyman2002 01001100 01010101 01000101 00100000 00110100 00110000 00110010 <cite>AlephZero posted [p:881904990] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>mario2000 posted...</cite> <quote>idk maybe the government should just make it easier to obtain goods, services, and basic necessities so that way the minimum wage won't really matter but that would be socialism</quote> worked in venezuela</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Nomadic View 06/27/17 1:53:55 PM #84:	hockeybub89 posted... There has to be some way to make something work. You have to make over double minimum wage to even qualify for a modest rental where I live If everyone makes more then the price of everything just goes up, including rent. --- {}\\{}(o){}\\//{}//=\\{})){}(< \\//{}{{-{}//\\{} {}xxxxxxxx{};;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;> <cite>Nomadic View posted [p:881905209] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>hockeybub89 posted...</cite> <quote>There has to be some way to make something work. You have to make over double minimum wage to even qualify for a modest rental where I live</quote> If everyone makes more then the price of everything just goes up, including rent.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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hockeybub89 06/27/17 1:58:50 PM #86:	Nomadic View posted... hockeybub89 posted... There has to be some way to make something work. You have to make over double minimum wage to even qualify for a modest rental where I live If everyone makes more then the price of everything just goes up, including rent. That has never been a 1:1 ratio. No reason to suddenly lock wages at this arbitrary number while cost of living continues to rise. --- http://card.psnprofiles.com/1/NIR_Hockey.png http://www.last.fm/user/hockeybub89/ <cite>hockeybub89 posted [p:881905484] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Nomadic View posted...</cite> <quote><cite>hockeybub89 posted...</cite> <quote>There has to be some way to make something work. You have to make over double minimum wage to even qualify for a modest rental where I live</quote> If everyone makes more then the price of everything just goes up, including rent.</quote> That has never been a 1:1 ratio. No reason to suddenly lock wages at this arbitrary number while cost of living continues to rise.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 06/28/17 11:51:19 AM #87:	Good article on this scrum. http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/seattle-is-getting-an-object-lesson-in-weaponized-data/ To review, the timeline seems to have gone like this: The UW shares with City Hall an early draft of its study showing the minimum wage law is hurting the workers it was meant to help; the mayor’s office shares the study with researchers known to be sympathetic toward minimum wage laws, asking for feedback; those researchers release a report that’s high on Seattle’s minimum wage law just a week before the negative report comes out. Strong is correct in saying that the UW study was not funded by the city. It should be noted, though, that the researchers involved in the study are the same researchers who are in charge of the city-funded reports. Those reports have previously grated advocates of the $15 minimum wage. In September, Coucilmember Kshama Sawant took the research group to task for various aspects of a report from last July, which Sawant argued cast the wage law in a poor light due to bad methodology and accused the director of the study, Jacob Vigdor, of “idelogical editorializing.” --- He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:881961262] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>Good article on this scrum. http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/seattle-is-getting-an-object-lesson-in-weaponized-data/ To review, the timeline seems to have gone like this: The UW shares with City Hall an early draft of its study showing the minimum wage law is hurting the workers it was meant to help; the mayor’s office shares the study with researchers known to be sympathetic toward minimum wage laws, asking for feedback; those researchers release a report that’s high on Seattle’s minimum wage law just a week before the negative report comes out. Strong is correct in saying that the UW study was not funded by the city. It should be noted, though, that the researchers involved in the study are the same researchers who are in charge of the city-funded reports. Those reports have previously grated advocates of the $15 minimum wage. In September, Coucilmember Kshama Sawant took the research group to task for various aspects of a report from last July, which Sawant argued cast the wage law in a poor light due to bad methodology and accused the director of the study, Jacob Vigdor, of “idelogical editorializing.”</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
emblem boy 06/28/17 12:30:04 PM #88:	Balrog0 posted... Good article on this scrum. http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/seattle-is-getting-an-object-lesson-in-weaponized-data/ To review, the timeline seems to have gone like this: The UW shares with City Hall an early draft of its study showing the minimum wage law is hurting the workers it was meant to help; the mayorâ€™s office shares the study with researchers known to be sympathetic toward minimum wage laws, asking for feedback; those researchers release a report thatâ€™s high on Seattleâ€™s minimum wage law just a week before the negative report comes out. Strong is correct in saying that the UW study was not funded by the city. It should be noted, though, that the researchers involved in the study are the same researchers who are in charge of the city-funded reports. Those reports have previously grated advocates of the $15 minimum wage. In September, Coucilmember Kshama Sawant took the research group to task for various aspects of a report from last July, which Sawant argued cast the wage law in a poor light due to bad methodology and accused the director of the study, Jacob Vigdor, of â€idelogical editorializing.â€ When it comes to reading all these studies, do you have any tips on analysing them? --- Posted with GameRaven 3.2 <cite>emblem boy posted [p:881963460] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>Good article on this scrum. http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/seattle-is-getting-an-object-lesson-in-weaponized-data/ To review, the timeline seems to have gone like this: The UW shares with City Hall an early draft of its study showing the minimum wage law is hurting the workers it was meant to help; the mayorâ€™s office shares the study with researchers known to be sympathetic toward minimum wage laws, asking for feedback; those researchers release a report thatâ€™s high on Seattleâ€™s minimum wage law just a week before the negative report comes out. Strong is correct in saying that the UW study was not funded by the city. It should be noted, though, that the researchers involved in the study are the same researchers who are in charge of the city-funded reports. Those reports have previously grated advocates of the $15 minimum wage. In September, Coucilmember Kshama Sawant took the research group to task for various aspects of a report from last July, which Sawant argued cast the wage law in a poor light due to bad methodology and accused the director of the study, Jacob Vigdor, of â€idelogical editorializing.â€</quote> When it comes to reading all these studies, do you have any tips on analysing them?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 06/28/17 12:40:27 PM #89:	emblem boy posted... When it comes to reading all these studies, do you have any tips on analysing them? naw,, the reason I haven't answered many questions related to the content of the studies is that this is all mostly above my head. I'm not an economist, just an interested layperson. With regards to these studies, though, my friend wrote up a blog post about it that got published today I think: http://www.urban.org/urban-wire/strengths-and-weaknesses-new-study-seattles-minimum-wage-increases --- He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:881964036] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>emblem boy posted...</cite> <quote>When it comes to reading all these studies, do you have any tips on analysing them?</quote> naw,, the reason I haven't answered many questions related to the content of the studies is that this is all mostly above my head. I'm not an economist, just an interested layperson. With regards to these studies, though, my friend wrote up a blog post about it that got published today I think: http://www.urban.org/urban-wire/strengths-and-weaknesses-new-study-seattles-minimum-wage-increases</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jiek_Fafn 06/28/17 12:43:45 PM #90:	GregShmedley posted... pinky0926 posted... I've never been in favour of these minimum wage increases because they're just going to fast track the death of small businesses in favour of franchises. Overly simplistic, but economies of scale are a big problem here. Starbucks won't suffer. The little mom and pop on the corner that does the really nice breakfast rolls and puts a little biscuit on the side of your latte will, though. Some people act like this is a goos thing as these small stores aren't "paying livable wages" and therefore shouldn't exist. I agree with a minimum wage increase but $15 is unrealistic. I have the same issues with the minimum wage hike. It gives Wal-Mart and McDonald's more power since they can effectively destroy any potential competition because they already have money. Fledgling businesses have the deck stacked against them even more. --- PSN: Jiek <cite>Jiek_Fafn posted [p:881964225] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>GregShmedley posted...</cite> <quote><cite>pinky0926 posted...</cite> <quote>I've never been in favour of these minimum wage increases because they're just going to fast track the death of small businesses in favour of franchises. Overly simplistic, but economies of scale are a big problem here. Starbucks won't suffer. The little mom and pop on the corner that does the really nice breakfast rolls and puts a little biscuit on the side of your latte will, though.</quote> Some people act like this is a goos thing as these small stores aren't "paying livable wages" and therefore shouldn't exist. I agree with a minimum wage increase but $15 is unrealistic.</quote> I have the same issues with the minimum wage hike. It gives Wal-Mart and McDonald's more power since they can effectively destroy any potential competition because they already have money. Fledgling businesses have the deck stacked against them even more.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 06/28/17 1:21:48 PM #91:	Couple of things that have been pointed out to me: 1) The fact that the research team was able to replicate the results from previous studies (a null impact on employment in the food service industry) might imply that those previous studies have data limitations. We should at least consider that before we uncritically accept the criticism from the EPI that says these results are wildly out of step with prior research. That's just not true -- other research hasn't been able to use data on hours worked in this manner, and using their unique data set they still can come to the same conclusion as prior research if they only look at the subset of their data that prior research has typically relied on. 2) the lack of data on multi-site firms might not be so damning. in a footnote of the paper, they find that even if you make pretty generous assumptions about multi-site firms, the level of disemployment they find is still higher than most other studies have found. --- He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:881966396] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>Couple of things that have been pointed out to me: 1) The fact that the research team was able to replicate the results from previous studies (a null impact on employment in the food service industry) might imply that those previous studies have data limitations. We should at least consider that before we uncritically accept the criticism from the EPI that says these results are wildly out of step with prior research. That's just not true -- other research hasn't been able to use data on hours worked in this manner, and using their unique data set they still can come to the same conclusion as prior research if they only look at the subset of their data that prior research has typically relied on. 2) the lack of data on multi-site firms might not be so damning. in a footnote of the paper, they find that even if you make pretty generous assumptions about multi-site firms, the level of disemployment they find is still higher than most other studies have found.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 06/28/17 4:37:37 PM #92:	tag --- He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:881978743] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>tag</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 06/29/17 10:34:00 AM #93:	http://www.nationalreview.com/article/449080/seattle-minimum-wage-university-washington-study-critics-wrong --- He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:882021690] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>http://www.nationalreview.com/article/449080/seattle-minimum-wage-university-washington-study-critics-wrong</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Questionmarktarius 06/29/17 10:54:32 AM #94:	Balrog0 posted... http://www.nationalreview.com/article/449080/seattle-minimum-wage-university-washington-study-critics-wrong The most important part: Most likely, the losses are borne most heavily by low-income and minority households, high-school dropouts, those with criminal records, and others who are already most vulnerable — that is, those whom an employer is least likely to hire at $15 an hour. I believe the technical term for this is "backfired spectacularly". <cite>Questionmarktarius posted [p:882022663] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>http://www.nationalreview.com/article/449080/seattle-minimum-wage-university-washington-study-critics-wrong</quote> The most important part: <quote>Most likely, the losses are borne most heavily by low-income and minority households, high-school dropouts, those with criminal records, and others who are already most vulnerable — that is, those whom an employer is least likely to hire at $15 an hour.</quote> I believe the technical term for this is "backfired spectacularly".</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 06/29/17 11:03:08 AM #95:	that is very important, but for me the most important parts to me are the rebuttals to the EPI criticisms of the study also the closer: Of course, one paper, even a careful, well-documented one with superior data that’s written by a respected and apolitical group, does not fully establish the result. But critics who refuse to even consider that this policy may be hurting those it’s intended to help should take a step back and focus on the real question: How can policy best help low-income households? As a transfer program, this experiment has failed miserably. It destroyed three dollars’ worth of employment opportunities for every dollar that actually went to a low-wage worker. A genuine concern for the poor and working class is not well served by shouting slogans and ignoring real evidence. If your immediate reaction to this study was to dismiss this study, it is time to admit that your views cannot be swayed by science. They might as well be religion. --- He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:882023094] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote>that is very important, but for me the most important parts to me are the rebuttals to the EPI criticisms of the study also the closer: Of course, one paper, even a careful, well-documented one with superior data that’s written by a respected and apolitical group, does not fully establish the result. But critics who refuse to even consider that this policy may be hurting those it’s intended to help should take a step back and focus on the real question: How can policy best help low-income households? As a transfer program, this experiment has failed miserably. It destroyed three dollars’ worth of employment opportunities for every dollar that actually went to a low-wage worker. A genuine concern for the poor and working class is not well served by shouting slogans and ignoring real evidence. If your immediate reaction to this study was to dismiss this study, it is time to admit that your views cannot be swayed by science. They might as well be religion. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 06/29/17 11:10:31 AM #96:	M_Live posted... Every other day I keep seeing articles saying it's been working great for Seattle, and that it's putting Seattle in shambles. It can't be both so which is it We'll find out in 5-10 years --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:882023482] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>M_Live posted...</cite> <quote>Every other day I keep seeing articles saying it's been working great for Seattle, and that it's putting Seattle in shambles. It can't be both so which is it</quote> We'll find out in 5-10 years</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Webmaster4531 06/29/17 11:26:24 AM #97:	Questionmarktarius posted... Balrog0 posted... http://www.nationalreview.com/article/449080/seattle-minimum-wage-university-washington-study-critics-wrong The most important part: Most likely, the losses are borne most heavily by low-income and minority households, high-school dropouts, those with criminal records, and others who are already most vulnerable — that is, those whom an employer is least likely to hire at $15 an hour. I believe the technical term for this is "backfired spectacularly". That quote starts with a weasel word. I can't remember if you're one of those white privilege doesn't exist people? --- Ad Hominem. <cite>Webmaster4531 posted [p:882024326] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Questionmarktarius posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>http://www.nationalreview.com/article/449080/seattle-minimum-wage-university-washington-study-critics-wrong</quote> The most important part: <quote>Most likely, the losses are borne most heavily by low-income and minority households, high-school dropouts, those with criminal records, and others who are already most vulnerable — that is, those whom an employer is least likely to hire at $15 an hour.</quote> I believe the technical term for this is "backfired spectacularly".</quote> That quote starts with a weasel word. I can't remember if you're one of those white privilege doesn't exist people?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Webmaster4531 06/29/17 11:29:05 AM #98:	Balrog0 posted... If your immediate reaction to this study was to dismiss this study, it is time to admit that your views cannot be swayed by science. Economics is not science. This bullshit notion needs to die. --- Ad Hominem. <cite>Webmaster4531 posted [p:882024496] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>If your immediate reaction to this study was to dismiss this study, it is time to admit that your views cannot be swayed by science. </quote> Economics is not science. This bullshit notion needs to die.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WaterLink 06/29/17 11:38:20 AM #99:	Thrillwell posted... I love how people who don't even live near Seattle do research about it. That would be like me preaching about Boston. Why wouldn't they do research about it? It's an important case study for obvious reasons, it's not just like people randomly decided to study Seattle a lot. --- No one sings like you anymore <cite>WaterLink posted [p:882025007] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Thrillwell posted...</cite> <quote>I love how people who don't even live near Seattle do research about it. That would be like me preaching about Boston.</quote> Why wouldn't they do research about it? It's an important case study for obvious reasons, it's not just like people randomly decided to study Seattle a lot.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 06/29/17 12:56:04 PM #100:	Webmaster4531 posted... Balrog0 posted... If your immediate reaction to this study was to dismiss this study, it is time to admit that your views cannot be swayed by science. Economics is not science. This bullshit notion needs to die. it's as much a science as any of the social sciences are sciences imho --- He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:882029578] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Webmaster4531 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>If your immediate reaction to this study was to dismiss this study, it is time to admit that your views cannot be swayed by science. </quote> Economics is not science. This bullshit notion needs to die.</quote> it's as much a science as any of the social sciences are sciences imho</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Webmaster4531 06/29/17 12:57:13 PM #101:	Balrog0 posted... Webmaster4531 posted... Balrog0 posted... If your immediate reaction to this study was to dismiss this study, it is time to admit that your views cannot be swayed by science. Economics is not science. This bullshit notion needs to die. it's as much a science as any of the social sciences are sciences imho I agree with that. --- Ad Hominem. <cite>Webmaster4531 posted [p:882029675] in Seattle's ... [t:75502993]...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Webmaster4531 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>If your immediate reaction to this study was to dismiss this study, it is time to admit that your views cannot be swayed by science. </quote> Economics is not science. This bullshit notion needs to die.</quote> it's as much a science as any of the social sciences are sciences imho</quote> I agree with that.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > Seattle's large minimum wage increases a disaster (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > Seattle's large minimum wage increases a disaster