Poll of the Day > So why are transgenders unnatural?

(+) Yeah! (+)

IronBornCorps posted...

I lol'd at "tricked into gay sex".

First of all, you are no gay for being attracted to the feminity of trans women.

Second of all, trans people aren't trying to trick you. This belief arises from poor media representation that spent decades villanizing trans women and erasing trans men.

Seriously, think of a movie of show (not Orange is the new black or Shameless) with a trans person. I bet they are either a sex worker, an antagonist, or portrayed as a complete joke. Some of you have been brainwashed into believing these media tropes are accurate. Which unfortunate, because they cause a lot of violence to trans people.

You are completely missing his point. Read his post again.

I am not missing his point. He said "tricking people into gay sex" is promoted in trans circles, it's really not. I promise you it's not.

Then he goes on about how anyone who really cares about others wouldn't support and enable this behavior. Did I miss something? I think you missed the point in my post, because a lot of beliefs about trans people do come from media representation.

what's all this about transformers?

Krazy_Kirby posted...

^what about animals riding bicycles?

don't make me get my bible!
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FroMan posted...

The people who do make the claim that to be transgender is unnatural are committing the appeal to nature fallacy. Although they may not come out and say "its unnatural, so its bad", that is very much what they are implying.

While you are correct about the fallacy, it's also true that pointing to similar, naturally-occurring phenomena as a sign that is good is also an appeal to nature. I mean, you can find instances of female dogs humping male dogs. This doesn't mean that with the added element of human innovation, pegging is natural. But that doesn't make it inherently good or bad on its own, either.
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OneTimeBen posted...

What was the point citing health and safety laws? That there must be an obstacle?

That it's already established in law that you do not have a right to do what you want with your own body, so you can't argue it's your right to cut off your balls, the law already feels okay completely denying you this should they wish regardless of how you feel.
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IronBornCorps posted...

I am not missing his point. He said "tricking people into gay sex" is promoted in trans circles, it's really not. I promise you it's not.

I know It is by personally witnessing this being discussed.

IronBornCorps posted...

Then he goes on about how anyone who really cares about others wouldn't support and enable this behavior. Did I miss something? I think you missed the point in my post, because a lot of beliefs about trans people do come from media representation.

Do show me where any media portrays transgenders as illed. Gender dysphoria is a taboo subject in media with their inherent lean toward the inner tumblr, but it's my stance on transgenders.

People who are ill need help, assisting them in feeding their illness is wrong, this is fine for every other illness but when it comes to gender dysphoria, people do a fucking U-turn and it's sickening.
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ZiggiStardust posted...

what's all this about transformers?

Krazy_Kirby posted...

^what about animals riding bicycles?

don't make me get my bible!

Robots from outer space are tricking humans into xenophilic gay sex apparently.
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Lil_Bit83 posted...

ZiggiStardust posted...

what's all this about transformers?

Krazy_Kirby posted...

^what about animals riding bicycles?

don't make me get my bible!

Robots from outer space are tricking humans into xenophilic gay sex apparently.

that sounds about right. definitely gonna need the bible...
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OneTimeBen posted...

Lil_Bit83 posted...

OneTimeBen posted...

Lil_Bit83 posted...

Because some people are nosy, bigoted control freaks.

You do need many highly educated individuals to complete this.

To complete what?

Some people are just assholes who choose to forcibly stick their nose where it's not wanted and discriminate. That doesn't take highly educated people to investigate. It just takes simple observation of my fellow human beings.

How many of those highly educated surgeons would rather be somewhere else then changing a persons sex? That is totally unnatural to a medicial doctor.

Yet these doctors are specialized to do so. Just as plastic surgeons, or brain surgeons or any other type of specialized doctor.

Your argument fell hard.
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yutterh posted...

When the animal kingdom itself has quite a few different animals that can change sex.

They change sex naturally though. Trans folk tend to have surgery if they want to go all the way this is altering what you are born with. That isn't natural. I've no issue with trans folk but I felt like pointing out the fact that your comparison is dumb.
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Media has improved in the last couple years in regards to trans people. In the past off the top of my head...

- 1st Ace Ventura (main villain is a trans woman with deceiver archetype)

- Crying game (more deceiver archetype)

- a character is MASH ("pathetic trans" archetype, whereas this character has no chance to "pass". Also this character is effectively a man in a dress, reinforcing that popular narrative.

Dude Where's My Car, Rocky Horror Picture Show, pretty much anything featuring a gender variant made before 2012.

Also, I highly doubt you are welcome into trans circles, because if you were you would know they aren't trying to trick anyone.

ZiggiStardust posted...

Lil_Bit83 posted...

ZiggiStardust posted...

what's all this about transformers?

Krazy_Kirby posted...

^what about animals riding bicycles?

don't make me get my bible!

Robots from outer space are tricking humans into xenophilic gay sex apparently.

that sounds about right. definitely gonna need the bible...

Sorry. They're made out of metal. Chucking it at them won't be enough of a distraction to run the hell away. You need a holographic projection of the opposite faction.

Also, why are you against animals riding bikes? Humans ain't nothin but animals and we've been riding bikes for decades unmolested... Transformers don't turn into regular bikes so your good.
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wwinterj25 posted...

yutterh posted...

When the animal kingdom itself has quite a few different animals that can change sex.

They change sex naturally though. Trans folk tend to have surgery if they want to go all the way this is altering what you are born with. That isn't natural. I've no issue with trans folk but I felt like pointing out the fact that your comparison is dumb.

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Lil_Bit83 posted...

ZiggiStardust posted...

what's all this about transformers?

Krazy_Kirby posted...

^what about animals riding bicycles?

don't make me get my bible!

Robots from outer space are tricking humans into xenophilic gay sex apparently.

They're probably communists too.
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I'm also curious as to this "help" you are proposing. If they see a mental specialist, those are the people who usually write surgical recommendations and gender marker changes.

Surely you aren't implying conversation therapy, as that doesn't work.

The most effective treatment has been transition.

IronBornCorps posted...

- a character is MASH ("pathetic trans" archetype, whereas this character has no chance to "pass". Also this character is effectively a man in a dress, reinforcing that popular narrative.

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to correct you on this.
Klinger wasn't trying to be trans. He wanted out of the war so he was trying to get a section 8 (psychiatric discharge). The cross-dressing was just one of many attempts in trying to get one.

He actively refused a discharge because said discharge would've labeled him as a transvestite and a homosexual, which he balks against.

And as the seasons go on, he eventually stops cross-dressing, especially after taking over Radar's job as company clerk.
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Those animals change naturally, transgender do not.

It's unnatural because it's artificial, and contrary to the ordinary course of nature.
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IronBornCorps posted...

I'm also curious as to this "help" you are proposing. If they see a mental specialist, those are the people who usually write surgical recommendations and gender marker changes.

Surely you aren't implying conversation therapy, as that doesn't work.

The most effective treatment has been transition.

This is what I always wonder about. The reason we "pull a u turn" in regards to this is because being trans doesnt affect other people, so our level of understanding about this, transitioning helps way better than any other method out there. Is it perfect? No. But it is better than other possible options. If transitioning was found to not help at all, I bet you people wouldnt be advocating for it. I mean, going to a therapist to talk probably helps somewhat, but keep in mind these thoughts wont just go away with therapy sessions. if its a feeling you've felt your entire life, it isnt just going to evaporate because you talked to somebody about it.

Perhaps in the future we will uncover ways more effective than transitioning to help trans people, which would be great, but right now, transitioning is it.

NuclearCommando posted...

IronBornCorps posted...

- a character is MASH ("pathetic trans" archetype, whereas this character has no chance to "pass". Also this character is effectively a man in a dress, reinforcing that popular narrative.

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to correct you on this.
Klinger wasn't trying to be trans. He wanted out of the war so he was trying to get a section 8 (psychiatric discharge). The cross-dressing was just one of many attempts in trying to get one.

He actively refused a discharge because said discharge would've labeled him as a transvestite and a homosexual, which he balks against.

And as the seasons go on, he eventually stops cross-dressing, especially after taking over Radar's job as company clerk.

He still cross dressed a great deal of episodes, and it was always for comic relief. Also how is crossdressing to get section 8 not reinforce the idea that gender dysphoria is a mental illness? Also, not even a man who wore a dress wants to be labeled a homosexual or trans in that show, because those are just horrible things to be right? Do you know the origin of the word "bad"?

M*A*S*H started to air 45 years ago and things have changed multiple times since then.
You know what else we used to believe back then?
That AIDS only spread between homosexuals and that heterosexuals were immune to it.
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IronBornCorps posted...

NuclearCommando posted...

IronBornCorps posted...

- a character is MASH ("pathetic trans" archetype, whereas this character has no chance to "pass". Also this character is effectively a man in a dress, reinforcing that popular narrative.

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to correct you on this.
Klinger wasn't trying to be trans. He wanted out of the war so he was trying to get a section 8 (psychiatric discharge). The cross-dressing was just one of many attempts in trying to get one.

He actively refused a discharge because said discharge would've labeled him as a transvestite and a homosexual, which he balks against.

And as the seasons go on, he eventually stops cross-dressing, especially after taking over Radar's job as company clerk.

He still cross dressed a great deal of episodes, and it was always for comic relief. Also how is crossdressing to get section 8 not reinforce the idea that gender dysphoria is a mental illness? Also, not even a man who wore a dress wants to be labeled a homosexual or trans in that show, because those are just horrible things to be right? Do you know the origin of the word "bad"?

He wasn't deluded into thinking he's a woman, there's a difference. Stop projecting your beliefs to make it fit how you want it to.

And since gender dysphoria IS classified as a mental illness, reinforcing that idea is not harmful. It's simply a fact.
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IronBornCorps posted...

I highly doubt you are welcome into trans circles, because if you were you would know they aren't trying to trick anyone.

Oh I didn't realise you guys were a highly secretive cult discussing your secret plans in your trans cave.

They believe they are the opposite gender to what they are and promote hiding that truth until after sex, which means they are aware the truth would mean sex wouldn't happen and thus are raping people by deceit. I am aware this isn't applicable to the whole group and there are plenty of people who choose to be decent, but don't try to pretend this isn't a legitimate issue which makes people less than accepting of trans as a whole.
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Trans short for Transformers are just robots in disguise
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Oh I didn't realise you guys were a highly secretive cult discussing your secret plans in your trans cave.

Now you're getting it.
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It's as natural as depression and bipolar disorder. Having a mental disorder doesn't make a person unnatural, it just gives them a source of stress and pain, being understanding and supportive towards them is just being decent. Though with that said I feel that there are a couple of issues with how gender dysphoria is perceived in general.

The first being that a person's preferred gender should not permit them to break certain regulations put in place (i.e. in professional athletics). As it is, transgender individuals have been permitted to enter competitions as the gender they identify as, in part due to officials being pressured to allow it. Transwomen have recently been allowed this, with the lack of understanding that the sex/gender division in professional athletics is not a division between female and male minds or beliefs, but between muscle and bone structure heavily influenced by genetics. Hormone therapy does not fully reverse the result of past testosterone, only mitigates it and alters the body to a smaller extent, as transgender individuals undergoing hormone replacement later in life can confirm.

As for the mention of gay sex earlier, I think a part of the misunderstanding is the appropriation of "gender" (the synonym for sex until recently). Sexual orientation has typically been a preference towards a certain sex/gender, and sex between a more typically masculine man and a feminine man would still be a homosexual (same sex) action, regardless of whether one man feels that he is a woman. Referring to a person by his/her preferred pronoun is polite and harmless, calling a transwoman a man might upset them, and them being told that isn't a magic cure for gender dysphoria, so is just a little pointless. Rape by deceit is a little more upsetting, and has been condoned on these boards in the past, which is why a poster earlier mentioned it.

I apologize if my views are offensive to anyone reading, I find the issue a bit strange, because on one hand, transgender individuals should be treated fairly (as obviously anyone should), though on the other hand, "support" for the issue feels like it has been twisted into delusion in recent years. You can believe in a person's right to be treated like a person without believing that this person genuinely can morph into another sex through mutilation and doping. Hormone replacement therapy is the best option available for people suffering from this, not only because it allows them to make themselves as close to their ideal self image as possible, but because mental health specialists do not have a way to cure the disorder.

This issue frustrates me slightly, because it feels as if people hearing "I recommend hormone therapy" believe that doctors are confirming their belief that they are actually the other sex, while in reality, the doctor is choosing the option that their patients are least likely to kill themselves over.

tl;dr Transpeople are people, society shouldn't stigmatize mental illness, just accept they need to be treated as humans.

yutterh posted...

the animal kingdom itself has quite a few different animals that can change sex

Humans aren't one of them.

yutterh posted...

No other species uses transportation vehicles or uses computer's. If you look at humans our ability to adapt and change and create is part of our nature as beings.

None of those things are natural either. Humans making things is natural for human, not for the things that are made. By definition those things are "man made". They do not exist in nature without human intervention. The thing with changing sex in humans is that it takes a natural process and alters it. It is therefor not of nature, thus unnatural.

Foppe posted...

...but we got homosexuality in nature, how is that not normal?

It's not normal because it not the statistical norm. Norms and Nature are separate matters. One doesn't have much bearing on the other.

CountessRolab posted...

By your definition, blonde hair is not normal because it isnt the majority.

That is technically correct. Blonde hair is natural, though it is a statistical outlier. This reinforces my point about Norms and Nature being separate matters.

IronBornCorps posted...

Not all transgender people go through these various procedures though, and cis people get plastic surgery as well.

There is a distinction between self-identifying as a gender that is different from ones biology and altering ones body to approximate the gender one self-identifies as. The first post makes it about the alteration. That there are other species capable of changing sex is a biological fact. Whether those species self-identify as one or the other is unknown.
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But humanity have had homosex for thousands of years, how is it not natural?
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Foppe posted...

But humanity have had homosex for thousands of years, how is it not natural?

Adam and Steve proved this!
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Driving a car was not natural 150 years ago.
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Because it doesn't occur naturally.

This isn't rocket science. There's nothing really wrong with people that want to do this, but it is scientifically unnatural for humans whether you wish for it to be or not. It's not an insult or bash against them, it's simply a fact.

You can accept it or not, but it will never change the fact that it is ultimately true.
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Foppe posted...

Driving a car was not natural 150 years ago.

If cars existed 150 years ago, people would have been able to drive them just fine. What does this have to do with anything, let alone the topic at hand?
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Just wait for the next DSM. It wasn't that long ago homosexuality was considered a mental illness. Being transgender will follow suit. A potential medical condition, yes. Mental illness no, it just leaves many more prone to mental illness.

Foppe posted...

But humanity have had homosex for thousands of years, how is it not natural?

Whether that is natural or not is ultimately debatable; given that it is a natural urge for some, I'll swing towards yes, it is natural. However, as a species it was obviously intended that reproduction occur to ensure species' survival. This too, is not rocket science.

I've only read a few of the posts in here and already it feels like a big support group trying to feel better about things that are not issues. It doesn't matter whether or not what you want to do is 'natural', there are plenty of things humans do that is 'unnatural'. Homosexuality and transgender is neither special nor offensive to sane people, it only becomes offensive when people blow it out of proportion and make it a big deal when it isn't.

My two cents on this strange topic.
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IronBornCorps posted...

Just wait for the next DSM. It wasn't that long ago homosexuality was considered a mental illness. Being transgender will follow suit. A potential medical condition, yes. Mental illness no, it just leaves many more prone to mental illness.

I can't tell if you're serious or not. I believe I've heard that wanting to be the opposite gender can be considered a mental illness (no idea what this disorder/mental illness is called), just as undergoing the transgender procedure can be considered a solution to it. I disagree on both counts, but again I have nothing against it either way.

The idea of a medical procedure you intentionally pay for and bring upon yourself as a 'potential medical condition', though, is comedy gold. The only reason it would leave someone prone to 'mental illness' is if it causes people to avoid them and make them feel bad, or worse be the target of harassment, verbal or physical. I am sorry if this happens to people, but ultimately people who choose to go through with this already realized it could happen. That certainly doesn't make it good or right, but it does mean that the individual made a choice and does not deserve special treatment because of complications they knew were possible.

Basically, this isn't something you are born with, nor is it it a complication from a medical procedure to save your life, correct a physical disability, nor is it a treatment for disease, illness, or physical injury. It's a procedure people undergo because they desire it, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, but willfully undergoing it with no direct need to do it, does not cause you to be under a 'medical condition'. Sorry.

PS: I am only referring to 'mental illness' from undergoing the procedure, which is ludicrous, I am not referring to physical complications which absolutely are relevant.
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I would say that homosexuality is natures way of keeping population growth in control.
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yutterh posted...

When the animal kingdom itself has quite a few different animals that can change sex.

Because they require a physical operation and use of outside chemicals? Or maybe it's the fact that no surface-dwelling vertebrate can naturally change like that so even your basic premise is misleading and more than a little dishonest? No matter how else you stand on the issue -- be it for or against -- it's objectively unnatural. I'm not sure why you'd even try to argue on those grounds. Frankly, there are a LOT of modifications you can make via surgery, but that doesn't make those modifications natural.

IronBornCorps posted...

Well trans people are born in nature, and have been documented throughout history. How is that not natural? Also, topic said natural, not normal.

If they were actually born with the ability to change, why would they need a surgeon? >_>

IronBornCorps posted...

I am not missing his point. He said "tricking people into gay sex" is promoted in trans circles, it's really not. I promise you it's not.

You literally can't promise that because it would entail knowing every community on the face of the planet which, without omniscience, is impossible.
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IronBornCorps posted...

Just wait for the next DSM. It wasn't that long ago homosexuality was considered a mental illness. Being transgender will follow suit. A potential medical condition, yes. Mental illness no, it just leaves many more prone to mental illness.

The denial is strong with this one
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Foppe posted...

Driving a car was not natural 150 years ago.

It's still not
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By definition, nothing that humans do is natural. This includes reproducing, which means that every human on the planet is unnatural.

Trans have precedence in nature. Source: Jurassic Park. Life finds a way.

dedbus posted...

Trans have precedence in nature. Source: Jurassic Park. Life finds a way.

And yet Jeff Goldblum still killed Charles Bronson's wife because she kept jiving him.
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_AdjI_ posted...

By definition, nothing that humans do is natural. This includes reproducing, which means that every human on the planet is unnatural.

The human species is perpetuated through a natural process. This is the same natural process that perpetuates most species of mammals (see platypus). Unless you believe that human came about through some means other than nature. In which case the topics off into religion, and creation, and intent, and whether or not that intent included a whole range of thing which humans disagree on.
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FroMan posted...

Although they may not come out and say "its unnatural, so its bad", that is very much what they are implying.

Right, just assume that's what everybody means. That's a good way to go through life.
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ArvTheGreat posted...

Arv is scared anyone willing to cut off their own balls you don't know what they are capable of

That's a pretty solid argument.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

They believe they are the opposite gender to what they are and promote hiding that truth until after sex, which means they are aware the truth would mean sex wouldn't happen and thus are raping people by deceit. I am aware this isn't applicable to the whole group and there are plenty of people who choose to be decent, but don't try to pretend this isn't a legitimate issue which makes people less than accepting of trans as a whole.

If she drops her pants and a dick flops out, consider it a bonus.
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Zareth posted...

ArvTheGreat posted...

Arv is scared anyone willing to cut off their own balls you don't know what they are capable of

That's a pretty solid argument.

I don't think anyone cuts off their own balls. That would be excruciatingly painful, I think.
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Lightningchao posted...

It's as natural as depression and bipolar disorder. Having a mental disorder doesn't make a person unnatural, it just gives them a source of stress and pain, being understanding and supportive towards them is just being decent. Though with that said I feel that there are a couple of issues with how gender dysphoria is perceived in general.

The first being that a person's preferred gender should not permit them to break certain regulations put in place (i.e. in professional athletics). As it is, transgender individuals have been permitted to enter competitions as the gender they identify as, in part due to officials being pressured to allow it. Transwomen have recently been allowed this, with the lack of understanding that the sex/gender division in professional athletics is not a division between female and male minds or beliefs, but between muscle and bone structure heavily influenced by genetics. Hormone therapy does not fully reverse the result of past testosterone, only mitigates it and alters the body to a smaller extent, as transgender individuals undergoing hormone replacement later in life can confirm.

As for the mention of gay sex earlier, I think a part of the misunderstanding is the appropriation of "gender" (the synonym for sex until recently). Sexual orientation has typically been a preference towards a certain sex/gender, and sex between a more typically masculine man and a feminine man would still be a homosexual (same sex) action, regardless of whether one man feels that he is a woman. Referring to a person by his/her preferred pronoun is polite and harmless, calling a transwoman a man might upset them, and them being told that isn't a magic cure for gender dysphoria, so is just a little pointless. Rape by deceit is a little more upsetting, and has been condoned on these boards in the past, which is why a poster earlier mentioned it.

I apologize if my views are offensive to anyone reading, I find the issue a bit strange, because on one hand, transgender individuals should be treated fairly (as obviously anyone should), though on the other hand, "support" for the issue feels like it has been twisted into delusion in recent years. You can believe in a person's right to be treated like a person without believing that this person genuinely can morph into another sex through mutilation and doping. Hormone replacement therapy is the best option available for people suffering from this, not only because it allows them to make themselves as close to their ideal self image as possible, but because mental health specialists do not have a way to cure the disorder.

This issue frustrates me slightly, because it feels as if people hearing "I recommend hormone therapy" believe that doctors are confirming their belief that they are actually the other sex, while in reality, the doctor is choosing the option that their patients are least likely to kill themselves over.

tl;dr Transpeople are people, society shouldn't stigmatize mental illness, just accept they need to be treated as humans.

my concerns as well...I See it as a mental disorder and am not gonna just pretend we can just magically make someone the opposite sex
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_AdjI_ posted...

By definition, nothing that humans do is natural. This includes reproducing, which means that every human on the planet is unnatural.

That makes zero sense, especially because reproduction is a completely natural process. Every mammal, reptile, and bird has some variation on 2-partner reproduction. The only animals which naturally don't are things like starfish which reproduce when a piece separates and grows into a new animal.

dedbus posted...

Trans have precedence in nature. Source: Jurassic Park. Life finds a way.

And any human who can change their sex without any outside interference would be a natural transgender. However, the artificial ones around today can't fully become men or women even with surgery because the sexual organs don't produce the right stuff.

Zareth posted...

FroMan posted...

Although they may not come out and say "its unnatural, so its bad", that is very much what they are implying.

Right, just assume that's what everybody means. That's a good way to go through life.

Plus, if we're playing that game, you could say that the "it's natural" camp claims that solely as an excuse to make it look more acceptable, via the naturalistic fallacy. Either way, it's clearly not natural and natural doesn't automatically equate with good nor unnatural with bad.
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PrinceOfArabia posted...

Although homosexual behavior exist in the animal world, it's very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities.

Geneticists, anthropologists, developmental psychologists, sociologists, endocrinologists, neuroscientists, medical researchers into gender, and twin study researchers are in broad agreement about the role of genetics in homosexuality. Genes don’t make you do it. There is no genetic determinism, and genetic influence at most is minor. Thus it's "unnatural."

Homosexuality ain't genetic at all, if it were, homosexuality wouldn't have existed as of now. It would cause it's own extinction over the ages, not to mention how strongly it contradicts the Darwinian natural selection theory. That plus the obvious fact that identical twins should supposedly share the homosexuality gene 100% of the time, this isn't true however... As there's no homosexuality gene to begin with.

And before anyone replying with: "Not everything that is biological is genetic. Sexual orientation is biological even though it is not the product of a single gene." (quoted from a homosexual supporter I last debated)
This is not logical at all. If homosexuality were biological without having any genes, I can easily say that me loving Anime and JRPGs is biological without any "otaku gene" being in there.

In short: homosexuals aren't born homosexuals, but they're made homosexuals when they grew up. And as Dr. Hamer conceded (The creator of the gay gene hoax himself), homosexuality is culturally transmitted, not inherited.

How you think of homosexuality ethically is another subject. I personally don't support homosexuality, but I don't "hate" on homosexuals nor treat them differently from any other just because they believe that they're supposed to be that way.

from someone who actually understands evolution and genetics: this guy is full of it
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