Board 8 > God, I forgot how garbage the intro of Kingdom Hearts is.

(+) Yeah! (+)

I was really disappointed when Sora came back because Roxas was already 100x more of an interesting character. Then they completely wasted his character for the rest of the series and uuugh

Uncharted has a lot of bad writing at parts. Charm only goes so far.
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NBIceman posted...

I agree that the prologue had power the first time around, but do you still get that same feeling on replay?

I've replayed it like 4 times and yes. It drags obviously but the very beginning and end is so good. I've never wanted to just jump into playing Sora and fight stuff, though I do wish I could skip right to the 2nd half of Sora where you fight all the Orgs.

I wish they pulled an MGS2 and made Roxas the main character
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foolm0r0n posted...

NBIceman posted...

I agree that the prologue had power the first time around, but do you still get that same feeling on replay?

I wish they pulled an MGS2 and made Roxas the main character

Preach it brother
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foolm0r0n posted...

NBIceman posted...

I agree that the prologue had power the first time around, but do you still get that same feeling on replay?

I've replayed it like 4 times and yes. It drags obviously but the very beginning and end is so good. I've never wanted to just jump into playing Sora and fight stuff, though I do wish I could skip right to the 2nd half of Sora where you fight all the Orgs.

I wish they pulled an MGS2 and made Roxas the main character

More power to you, then. I wish it held that same magic for me.
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NBIceman posted...

The gameplay is amazing in 2 if you actually know what you're doing and understand every facet of how the combat works.

ehhhhhhh it's fun combat I'll say that


foolm0r0n posted...

made Roxas the main character

f***in man do I wish
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ehhhhhhh it's fun combat I'll say that

Gonna go out on a limb and say you maybe don't understand every facet of how the combat works.

Which is really a good thing considering that it makes it much easier for you to enjoy the dumbed down games that came afterwards.
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KamikazePotato posted...

Also Uncharted doesn't have good writing

Uncharted 2 is very well written. 4 is pretty good, too. Neither has complexity, but for their genre, they do everything right.

The first one is just average and the third one seems like it was written in a hurry, though the Nate/Elena/Sully chemistry is fantastic as ever in both. More games could benefit from that kind of chemistry.
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NBIceman posted...

ehhhhhhh it's fun combat I'll say that

Gonna go out on a limb and say you maybe don't understand every facet of how the combat works.

Which is really a good thing considering that it makes it much easier for you to enjoy the dumbed down games that came afterwards.

Nah, and KH2 was pretty dumbed down already (not that KH1 was crazy higher up or anything) and I'd argue there's more to be had in future games. KH2 on the higher difficulties does start having some stuff but there's still never really anything SUPER there. But it's fun to go crazy in and that'll never change my enjoyment of it.

But sure you can keep using the word facet if you want
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I feel there's a lot more to KH2's combat system than KH1's. Or at the very least, there's a lot more of it you have to actually use, as dodge roll is too much of a crutch in KH1.
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Appreciation of KH2's combat is kind of a weird thing. There's this really widespread belief that it's a bad system where you can just mash X and occasionally hit a reaction command to breeze through it. And that's actually true on lower difficulties! When you hit Critical mode though, you can see the game is actually really beautifully set up and demands that players actually learn to play on a higher level. (Especially against Final Mix bosses)

The trick is I'm pretty sure most people didn't play on Critical mode so their claim that the combat is mashy is actually true from their experience. I'm legit not sure whether arguing Critical is how the game was meant to be played is even fair considering "normal" is the baseline for 90% of other games, but it sure seems like they designed the combat with Critical in mind.
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Just because you can't get through the game perfectly fine without really digging in to thing like Revenge Values doesn't mean that those things aren't there.

Like, unless you're a speedrunner there's really no reason you would have knowledge of any of the complexities because it's easy and fun enough to get through the game by mashing the X button on every difficulty but Critical. But that's like saying a fighting game has no depth simply because the majority of players only play it at a surface level.
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It gets less so on high difficulties but no, it's still fairly mashy and Sora is pretty god-like on those higher ones. Just have to pay attention a bit more to the damage increase you take and such.
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NBIceman posted...

The gameplay is amazing in 2 if you actually know what you're doing and understand every facet of how the combat works.

NBIceman posted...

Gonna go out on a limb and say you maybe don't understand every facet of how the combat works.

NBIceman posted...

knowledge of any of the complexities

And I gotta say you're stanning REALLY hard for this
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Or is it possible you just legitimately don't know what you're talking about?

Like, is there any chance at all that there may be more to the game than what you, as a single player, have experienced?
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Dude you're really coming off super pretentious right now


And yes I've played through the game multiple times, on Proud and Critical and the like. I hate saying s*** like that but I guess this is what it comes to. And I just don't consider it as insanely deep as you're making it out to be. Again I've said on higher difficulties some stuff starts to show up for sure and especially when it comes to secret bosses but overall, I really don't consider it an extremely deep combat system. I don't dislike it though, it's fun as hell.
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I'd actually be curious what these deep mechanics are. Like I've only ever played the game on Proud and haven't even touched it on normal or critical (that's not even on the original PS2 version is it?), nor have I really read about the system, but I did get pretty good at the combat on Proud and I'm curious how many of the mechanics I was aware of just by playing it.
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foolm0r0n posted...

And KH is not about fighting and action, nor story. It's about charm and characters. That's why we keep buying this garbage even though the story is completely dead and the gameplay and level design was never actually good

Can't say I disagree. No one would bother with the series if it weren't a mishmash of already beloved characters set to absolutely incredible music.
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I remember Goofy's MP Gift completely breaking KHI. All I had to do was disable his other abilities (so his AI doesn't waste MP elsewhere) and he became an infinite MP source for Sora.

I can't recall any one thing in KHII that broke combat, but I do remember combat in that game being FUN. Who cares if it wasn't difficult, it was a blast.
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Are talking like, Devil May Cry 3 deep or 'pressing more than 1 button' deep
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Kingdom Hearts owes about half of its total success to the music. Flashy gameplay and cameos are all well and good, but the music SELLS it all so well.
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I think I'm the outlier who didn't give a damn about most of the Disney references in general (big fan of Aladdin, big fan of Lion King, liked Little Mermaid, and Hades is fun. That's about it. And to boot Lion King is one of my least favorite worlds-- go figure) but still enjoyed the first two games and Chain of Memories for the gameplay and wacky story. Like yeah the story is kinda contrived and has a lot of dumb dialogue but whatever it's at least interesting.

Later legions of spinoff games kinda dumbed down the gameplay too much (they were all on handhelds so it's kinda understandable) so I could never get into them. That and they all seemed to be about fleshing the world out more than actually progressing the story.

I guess what I'm saying is people who actually like KH as something other than a Disney fanservice vehicle exist, minority as we may be.
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I'm still pissed off how we had that big scene in the first game where all the Disney villains are in a room together forming their evil team and it never pans out, they spend the entire game separated from each other and the main antagonists eventually just become a bunch of emo anime guys. What a waste of what could been amazing villain team ups.
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foolm0r0n posted...

See this is your problem. It's not downtime, it's a really strong part of the game. You just want the standard action emotions. Which is fine, since most games give you just that. But it's a pretty outdated view.

This is nonsense. Forget everything else I said. On its own merits as a story, it's still bad. It rises above most of the Kingdom Hearts noise perhaps, but it's underdeveloped, the writing is as unnatural and stilted as the rest of the series and the worst anime, and it's not even utilized by the rest of the actual game it's in. It sticks out like a sore thumb as a random sad story, and even when it gets closure, it's actually insulting. If you grew to like Roxas, watching him get absorbed by a shallow character like Sora and be forced to put on a smile at the end of the game like his struggles were immature... is really bothersome.
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foolm0r0n posted...

It drags obviously but the very beginning and end is so good.

I don't even disagree, out of context the series can produce some compelling scenes, but as a whole it just really fails. Even the worst s*** can produce an awesome scene or two, that's not an achievement.
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pjbasis posted...

If you grew to like Roxas, watching him get absorbed by a shallow character like Sora and be forced to put on a smile at the end of the game like his struggles were immature... is really bothersome.

Well yeah, that's what's cool about it. It's not a happy ending.
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NBIceman posted...

But that's like saying a fighting game has no depth simply because the majority of players only play it at a surface level.

KH doesn't provide any reason to get so deep into the mechanics. Maybe it's all in FM+ which I never played, but even still that kinda sucks that all the deep gameplay is in this years-later Japan exclusive version.

Fighting games from the very beginning demand and reward a deep understanding of the mechanics, even super simple fighters like Divekick.
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I was literally baffled what boss you thought was difficult. I was even more baffled to find out it was Guard Armor.

Who struggles against Guard Armor?
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To be fair not having Cure OR Dodge Roll makes it a bit tricky.....on Proud when you can get 2 shot killed


On Normal, that's a bit harder to make a case for
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foolm0r0n posted...

pjbasis posted...

If you grew to like Roxas, watching him get absorbed by a shallow character like Sora and be forced to put on a smile at the end of the game like his struggles were immature... is really bothersome.

Well yeah, that's what's cool about it. It's not a happy ending.

The problem is it doesn't continue that plot line. They tease it every now and then but for most part the prologue doesn't matter at all. In a vacuum it's strong but when put into context with the rest of the game it's a lot worse. You don't build up a good protagonist with plot potential and then unceremoniously dump him for a much worse one.

It's also strongly at odds with the series' tone as a whole. Watching Sora go on goofy adventures after you see what happens to Roxas is jarring as f*** and not in a good way.
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KamikazePotato posted...

It's also strongly at odds with the series' tone as a whole.

I mean not TOTALLY with *BBS spoilers* what happens to Terra, Aqua, and Ven


And hell even *Days spoilers* Xion and to a degree Roxas there again!
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

To be fair not having Cure OR Dodge Roll makes it a bit tricky.....on Proud when you can get 2 shot killed

You don't have Guard either if you drop shield

On a recent playthrough Guard Armor was 100% the hardest or 2nd hardest boss I remember fighting. Could have been the gecko thing in Tarzan world also, but I got Cure right after that and it became ez-mode again.
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Hell yeah shield droppers here ahoy


Magic rod get shield drop best route
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KamikazePotato posted...

The problem is it doesn't continue that plot line.

Oh sure, it's all smellier and smellier garbage from then on. But I think that only enhances Roxas' story, and the theme of escapism and facing reality. I want to live in his nice fake world forever, isolated from the terrible actual story of KH. But I can't, I must go out and buy the next garbage pile Nomura dumps on us. Even after telling myself I wouldn't get KH3, I know I'll get it day one. And on that day, MY summer will be over.
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Roxas bring thrust out into a world that doesn't want or understand him would have been sooo good. Imagine Roxas confronting the Order, Sora, Riku, the Disney dudes. Roxas coming to terms with his existence and struggling to survive. Roxas vs Sephiroooooth

Instead he just bips out of existence as Sora literally dances. Huge huge amount of wasted potential.
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

It's also strongly at odds with the series' tone as a whole.

I mean not TOTALLY with *BBS spoilers* what happens to Terra, Aqua, and Ven


And hell even *Days spoilers* Xion and to a degree Roxas there again!

Stuff got darker later, yeah, but KH2 was before that so the tone whiplash was profound, and even then no character gets thoroughly boned as much as Roxas does throughout the series.
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Actually nevermind, Roxas is 2nd behind Xion in that department.
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foolm0r0n posted...

pjbasis posted...

If you grew to like Roxas, watching him get absorbed by a shallow character like Sora and be forced to put on a smile at the end of the game like his struggles were immature... is really bothersome.

Well yeah, that's what's cool about it. It's not a happy ending.

No that is a happy ending. Roxas, without any cutscene between him arriving at Sora's memory pod, fully accepts losing his individuality and assembling into Sora. Because we can't be actually mad at Sora or think he's indirectly responsible for tragedy. He doesn't even learn about Roxas in the game.

It's poorly written. Weird that you think I'm just hating on tragedy or somber emotions. MGS3 is a fantastic tragedy.
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pjbasis posted...

Roxas, without any cutscene between him arriving at Sora's memory pod, fully accepts losing his individuality and assembling into Sora.

Uuuuuh what

There's literally a scene right before it where he rages so hard he smashes the computer. And then later on in the game as you go into TWTNW you get a scene/fight between him and Sora where he is trying to resist Sora.

Roxas only accepts what happened to him after that, because he realized everything he knew was a lie and he now gets to live for real through Sora.

Did you even pay attention at all

Guys, he'll be back in KH3, it's ok.
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Yeah, fun fact.

I saw people get angry at Dream Drop Distance because it made the plot more convoluted and stuff. And they got my angry about it too.

Then I actually played the game and things made far more sense than how they explained it. And now I'm angry at them for getting me angry at something that didn't deserve the anger.

I guess you could say that Kingdom Hearts is Anger.
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For all its faults, DDD provides a succinct summary of pretty much the entire series up to that point in a few pop-up text boxes.
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I want things to be more convoluted , I like how crazy this Disney crossover game's plot has become
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tcaz2 posted...

pjbasis posted...

Roxas, without any cutscene between him arriving at Sora's memory pod, fully accepts losing his individuality and assembling into Sora.

Uuuuuh what

There's literally a scene right before it where he rages so hard he smashes the computer. And then later on in the game as you go into TWTNW you get a scene/fight between him and Sora where he is trying to resist Sora.

Roxas only accepts what happened to him after that, because he realized everything he knew was a lie and he now gets to live for real through Sora.

Did you even pay attention at all

I'm saying there was no scene showing how he changed. He resists ---> accepts. No scene in between. The two you mention are merely resisting scenes. And then at the top of the castle he's all like good with it. We're led to believe he just accepts Sora because Sora is a good guy. But that doesn't answer all the philosophical questions about retaining one's own identity.

"I'm me! Nobody else!" This isn't really addressed.
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And why does the ending imply this romantic relationship between Roxas and Namine anyway??

They interact once!
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