Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 159: In Which We All Vote For Sheamus

Topic List	Page List: 1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 9:18:00 AM #301:	Anyway, I still don't think it's happening. Cena isn't just a face, he's the face of the company. Although they've gotten a tad riskier with the Punk thing, this is still a pretty PG product. Coming out with the message of "Rise Above Hate" is a great sort of motivational role-model message for the youth who are his target audience. And have you noticed they're still pushing this "Be A Star" thing pretty heavily? I don't see them throwing that all away for.... what exactly? The only reason you would do it at all is if you had someone else who you were literally preparing to become "the next John Cena" and who exactly is that? It's not Punk or Orton, they're already fairly entrenched and their personalities don't fit that type of mold. MAYBE he goes heel temporarily for his feud with The Rock, but I don't see it lasting much longer outside of that... -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603427] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Anyway, I still don't think it's happening.Cena isn't just a face, he's the face of the company. Although they've gotten a tad riskier with the Punk thing, this is still a pretty PG product. Coming out with the message of "Rise Above Hate" is a great sort of motivational role-model message for the youth who are his target audience. And have you noticed they're still pushing this "Be A Star" thing pretty heavily? I don't see them throwing that all away for.... what exactly? The only reason you would do it at all is if you had someone else who you were literally preparing to become "the next John Cena" and who exactly is that? It's not Punk or Orton, they're already fairly entrenched and their personalities don't fit that type of mold.MAYBE he goes heel temporarily for his feud with The Rock, but I don't see it lasting much longer outside of that... -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 9:47:00 AM #302:	I think Be A Star is irrelevant. They have THE MIZ in those commercials telling people not to be a bully. It's entirely separate from kayfabe. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603428] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> I think Be A Star is irrelevant.They have THE MIZ in those commercials telling people not to be a bully.It's entirely separate from kayfabe. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
XIII_rocks 12/30/11 9:49:00 AM #303:	Miz appeared in one of those ads immediately after him and R-Truth beat up a ref at night of champions >_> -- XIII_rocks, the cream of XIII fanboyism. The guru champ isn't such a SuperNiceDog, he made me change my sig! <cite>XIII_rocks posted [p:603429] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Miz appeared in one of those ads immediately after him and R-Truth beat up a ref at night of champions >_> -- XIII_rocks, the cream of XIII fanboyism.The guru champ isn't such a SuperNiceDog, he made me change my sig! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 9:51:00 AM #304:	Heck, I'm pretty sure TNA had a similar one at one point with BULLY RAY in it. <_< -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603430] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Heck, I'm pretty sure TNA had a similar one at one point with BULLY RAY in it. <_< -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 10:07:00 AM #305:	From: JaKyL25 \| #302 I think Be A Star is irrelevant. They have THE MIZ in those commercials telling people not to be a bully. It's entirely separate from kayfabe. I get that, but I really DON'T think it's "entirely separate." You guys seem to be acting as if John Cena is just another piece in the puzzle. One wrestler among a pool of 30. He's not. He's JOHN ***ING CENA. He is on his own plane of existence in this company. On a different topic.... as terrible as the Ryder/Eve storyline is guaranteed to be, that's how awesome the ADR/Bellas storyline could be if WWE actually focused on it a little bit. The Bellas are easily the best Divas on the mic (not saying a whole lot, granted), and the implications are just absolutely perfect* for ADR's character. We can hate him because he's a rich guy who has hot women sucking up to him for his money, while at the same time, we can laugh at him because those women are annoying the ** out of him. The fifteen-second preview we got of that on RAW was amazing. This is literally the perfect angle. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603431] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: JaKyL25 \| #302I think Be A Star is irrelevant.They have THE MIZ in those commercials telling people not to be a bully.It's entirely separate from kayfabe.I get that, but I really DON'T think it's "entirely separate." You guys seem to be acting as if John Cena is just another piece in the puzzle. One wrestler among a pool of 30. He's not. He's JOHN ING CENA. He is on his own plane of existence in this company.On a different topic.... as terrible as the Ryder/Eve storyline is guaranteed to be, that's how awesome the ADR/Bellas storyline could be if WWE actually focused on it a little bit. The Bellas are easily the best Divas on the mic (not saying a whole lot, granted), and the implications are just absolutely perfect for ADR's character. We can hate him because he's a rich guy who has hot women sucking up to him for his money, while at the same time, we can laugh at him because those women are annoying the ** out of him. The fifteen-second preview we got of that on RAW was amazing. This is literally the perfect angle. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 10:24:00 AM #306:	Brock's big comeback fight is tonight on PPV vs. Overeem. Who are wrestling fans rooting for? Presumably we love Brock's success in MMA, and a win here puts him right back into #1 contendership, but on the other hand, a loss moves him one step closer to a WWE return. So just how selfish are we? <_< -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603432] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Brock's big comeback fight is tonight on PPV vs. Overeem. Who are wrestling fans rooting for? Presumably we love Brock's success in MMA, and a win here puts him right back into #1 contendership, but on the other hand, a loss moves him one step closer to a WWE return.So just how selfish are we? <_< -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DeathChicken 12/30/11 10:27:00 AM #307:	Even if Brock wins, he won't beat Dos Santos, so it's a delay at worst -- We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable <cite>DeathChicken posted [p:603433] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Even if Brock wins, he won't beat Dos Santos, so it's a delay at worst -- We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tom Bombadil 12/30/11 10:30:00 AM #308:	I didn't realize Brock returning to WWE was a thing that could happen. Regardless, I missed his run entirely, so I'm not that attached to the dude and would be perfectly content with him adding a bit of credibility to the biz. -- KrahenProphet didn't teach me how to make random sigs. Meanie. <cite>Tom Bombadil posted [p:603434] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> I didn't realize Brock returning to WWE was a thing that could happen. Regardless, I missed his run entirely, so I'm not that attached to the dude and would be perfectly content with him adding a bit of credibility to the biz. -- KrahenProphet didn't teach me how to make random sigs.Meanie. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 10:36:00 AM #309:	If his MMA career ever got to the point where he felt that he did not possess the ability to be Champion anymore, he would likely finish up any remaining fights on his contract and come back to WWE part-time. I doubt he would ever do any sort of touring schedule or anything, but maybe something along the lines of HBK's late-'00s deal or Triple H's current level of in-ring activity. Lesnar vs. Cena would be huge if they re-introduced Brock properly to the new generation of fans. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603435] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> If his MMA career ever got to the point where he felt that he did not possess the ability to be Champion anymore, he would likely finish up any remaining fights on his contract and come back to WWE part-time. I doubt he would ever do any sort of touring schedule or anything, but maybe something along the lines of HBK's late-'00s deal or Triple H's current level of in-ring activity.Lesnar vs. Cena would be huge if they re-introduced Brock properly to the new generation of fans. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 10:44:00 AM #310:	Meh, I never liked Brock much. And now he's just as much of a sell-out as The Rock (except UNlike The Rock, he actually was fairly successful in what he sold out to!) -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603436] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Meh, I never liked Brock much. And now he's just as much of a sell-out as The Rock (except UNlike The Rock, he actually was fairly successful in what he sold out to!) -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 10:48:00 AM #311:	I don't feel as hurt by Brock leaving because I never got the sense that he was actually a wrestling fan. He just happened to be good at it. Like Bill Goldberg but better. I never tricked myself into thinking that Brock lived for the business at the end of the day. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603437] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> I don't feel as hurt by Brock leaving because I never got the sense that he was actually a wrestling fan. He just happened to be good at it. Like Bill Goldberg but better. I never tricked myself into thinking that Brock lived for the business at the end of the day. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 10:49:00 AM #312:	Well, I wasn't hurt by him leaving because I never really liked him anyway! Always felt the guy had the charisma of a rock. That's A rock, not THE rock <_< -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603438] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Well, I wasn't hurt by him leaving because I never really liked him anyway! Always felt the guy had the charisma of a rock. That's A rock, not THE rock <_< -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DeathChicken 12/30/11 10:54:00 AM #313:	Brock's Mexican hat dance disagrees -- We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable <cite>DeathChicken posted [p:603439] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Brock's Mexican hat dance disagrees -- We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
XIII_rocks 12/30/11 10:55:00 AM #314:	I f**ing loved Kane's promo, solely for "PEEE-PULLLLLLLLLL" -- XIII_rocks, the cream of XIII* fanboyism. The guru champ isn't such a SuperNiceDog, he made me change my sig! <cite>XIII_rocks posted [p:603440] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> I f***ing loved Kane's promo, solely for "PEEE-PULLLLLLLLLL" -- XIII_rocks, the cream of XIII fanboyism.The guru champ isn't such a SuperNiceDog, he made me change my sig! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 10:55:00 AM #315:	Oh man, he should have busted that out again had he actually beaten Cain Velasquez. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603441] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Oh man, he should have busted that out again had he actually beaten Cain Velasquez. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TimJab 12/30/11 11:49:00 AM #316:	From: JaKyL25 \| #309 Lesnar vs. Cena would be huge if they re-introduced Brock properly to the new generation of fans. Would Cena bring back the FU? -- http://img.imgcake.com/baronvontoast/1304312287012jpgen.jpg <cite>TimJab posted [p:603442] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: JaKyL25 \| #309Lesnar vs. Cena would be huge if they re-introduced Brock properly to the new generation of fans.Would Cena bring back the FU? -- http://img.imgcake.com/baronvontoast/1304312287012jpgen.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ScareChan 12/30/11 1:11:00 PM #317:	From: JaKyL25 \| #280 Well he wouldn't turn until Wrestlemania. And then yeah, you have him go up against Orton...and win. You have him go up against Rey...and win. You have him go up against Punk...and win. You have him go up against Big Show...and win. By that time you should have SOMEONE prepared to actually face him and take him down. Sheamus is one option. The goal of Heel Cena is to use him to build the next megaface, whoever that person is. Even with this I think your best build possible is having them on different brands. Have something like Punk WANT to take him out but he gets drafted and the brand split gets enforced. But at every PPV and cross brand event have Punk try to get in Cena's business. Like just have them brawl at every PPV post match until someone splits them apart. Then you get to the Rumble and Cena is left in the ring, Punk's number comes and Cena gets the ** out of dodge or something. You have Punk and him at Mania. The only problem is heel Cena is destined to fight Taker at mania. -- Circle gets the Scare! Imagine if Jesus knew kung fu. That's what everyone is dealing with <cite>ScareChan posted [p:603443] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: JaKyL25 \| #280Well he wouldn't turn until Wrestlemania.And then yeah, you have him go up against Orton...and win. You have him go up against Rey...and win. You have him go up against Punk...and win. You have him go up against Big Show...and win.By that time you should have SOMEONE prepared to actually face him and take him down. Sheamus is one option. The goal of Heel Cena is to use him to build the next megaface, whoever that person is.Even with this I think your best build possible is having them on different brands. Have something like Punk WANT to take him out but he gets drafted and the brand split gets enforced. But at every PPV and cross brand event have Punk try to get in Cena's business. Like just have them brawl at every PPV post match until someone splits them apart. Then you get to the Rumble and Cena is left in the ring, Punk's number comes and Cena gets the ** out of dodge or something. You have Punk and him at Mania. The only problem is heel Cena is destined to fight Taker at mania. -- Circle gets the Scare!Imagine if Jesus knew kung fu. That's what everyone is dealing with </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 1:17:00 PM #318:	Only Madison could make facepaint look that hot. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603444] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Only Madison could make facepaint look that hot. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 12/30/11 1:32:00 PM #319:	There's nothing wrong with a mixed reaction for the top heel. The nWo had a mixed reaction but they were still an excellent villain. All that matters is that most people hate him (easy to do, wrestling fans are fickle-- and I see the "let's go Cena" half flip flopping easier than the "Cena sucks" half) and that he's dominant and that he's fresh. It's not about creating a force that gets universally booed it's about creating a dominating heel presence that the WWE hasn't had in years, which is a big part of the reason their storylines have not been very compelling. If you look through all the great storylines you're going to find a dominating villain at the helm, and while guys like Kane and Mark Henry have looked strong as wrestlers at times, they haven't really controlled the landscape of the show like John Cena could. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! <cite>Lopen posted [p:603445] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> There's nothing wrong with a mixed reaction for the top heel. The nWo had a mixed reaction but they were still an excellent villain. All that matters is that most people hate him (easy to do, wrestling fans are fickle-- and I see the "let's go Cena" half flip flopping easier than the "Cena sucks" half) and that he's dominant and that he's fresh. It's not about creating a force that gets universally booed it's about creating a dominating heel presence that the WWE hasn't had in years, which is a big part of the reason their storylines have not been very compelling. If you look through all the great storylines you're going to find a dominating villain at the helm, and while guys like Kane and Mark Henry have looked strong as wrestlers at times, they haven't really controlled the landscape of the show like John Cena could. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 1:37:00 PM #320:	There's nothing wrong with a mixed reaction for the top heel What exactly is the point of turning Cena heel if he's going to get the same mixed reaction that he does now? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603446] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> There's nothing wrong with a mixed reaction for the top heelWhat exactly is the point of turning Cena heel if he's going to get the same mixed reaction that he does now? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 12/30/11 1:45:00 PM #321:	I just explained that in the post? Use in storylines. Cena as a character doesn't really make for compelling storylines unless the other guy feeds him everything-- Cena as a superman gone bad ruling the show is just good stuff. Also the reaction wouldn't be the exact same.. Cena gets a mixed reaction leaning face now he'd get a mixed reaction strongly leaning heel then, cause as I said I expect the people who are chanting "Let's go Cena!!" flop over easier than the "Cena sucks!" chants. Like a lot easier. In fact I'm not entirely convinced most of the "Cena sucks!" people even turn over since I'm not really sure Cena's character being stale is their whole issue with him. I was just saying that in principle a mixed reaction for the top heel isn't necessarily bad. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! <cite>Lopen posted [p:603447] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> I just explained that in the post? Use in storylines. Cena as a character doesn't really make for compelling storylines unless the other guy feeds him everything-- Cena as a superman gone bad ruling the show is just good stuff. Also the reaction wouldn't be the exact same.. Cena gets a mixed reaction leaning face now he'd get a mixed reaction strongly leaning heel then, cause as I said I expect the people who are chanting "Let's go Cena!!" flop over easier than the "Cena sucks!" chants. Like a lot easier. In fact I'm not entirely convinced most of the "Cena sucks!" people even turn over since I'm not really sure Cena's character being stale is their whole issue with him. I was just saying that in principle a mixed reaction for the top heel isn't necessarily bad. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 1:45:00 PM #322:	Any move that would keep Cena heel beyond his feud with The Rock would have be done so that he got the most boos possible. The only point of such a drastic measure would be to put over the next huge main-eventer babyface in the end, the same way the nWo angle SHOULD have ended with Sting going over. Sure, it would be creatively fresh and vibrant and a refreshing change of pace for us regular viewers, but creativity is not the goal in pro wrestling; rather it is a means to an end. Pure experimentation is fine in certain spots, to figure out what concepts work better than others, but for something that alters the landscape so severely you better have a goal in mind to use Heel Cena in the end to further the health of the company moving forward. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603448] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Any move that would keep Cena heel beyond his feud with The Rock would have be done so that he got the most boos possible.The only point of such a drastic measure would be to put over the next huge main-eventer babyface in the end, the same way the nWo angle SHOULD have ended with Sting going over.Sure, it would be creatively fresh and vibrant and a refreshing change of pace for us regular viewers, but creativity is not the goal in pro wrestling; rather it is a means to an end. Pure experimentation is fine in certain spots, to figure out what concepts work better than others, but for something that alters the landscape so severely you better have a goal in mind to use Heel Cena in the end to further the health of the company moving forward. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 12/30/11 1:51:00 PM #323:	Man I disagree with that entirely. The end for pro wrestling is to create a compelling product. It's not about "building stars" just for the sake of building stars. The reason Sting should've beaten the nWo is not to put Sting over-- the dude was already as over as he needed to be-- it's because the nWo had run its course as a storyline and something new had to happen for the storylines to not become stale. If you create good storylines everyone in the company gets bigger reactions just because the fans are more into it. It's why in the attitude era random midcard guys like Val Venis were getting bigger reactions than like 85% of the roster gets now. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! <cite>Lopen posted [p:603449] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Man I disagree with that entirely. The end for pro wrestling is to create a compelling product. It's not about "building stars" just for the sake of building stars. The reason Sting should've beaten the nWo is not to put Sting over-- the dude was already as over as he needed to be-- it's because the nWo had run its course as a storyline and something new had to happen for the storylines to not become stale. If you create good storylines everyone in the company gets bigger reactions just because the fans are more into it. It's why in the attitude era random midcard guys like Val Venis were getting bigger reactions than like 85% of the roster gets now. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 1:51:00 PM #324:	I was just saying that in principle a mixed reaction for the top heel isn't necessarily bad. Generally speaking, this is true. But I think we can't repeat enough what myself and Jak have already said. Turning Cena heel only makes any amount of sense if you're building "the next John Cena" and I just don't know who that would be. Even "heel Cena rules over the show" doesn't make a lot of sense unless he is ultimately defeated by an up and coming babyface. And man, Cena is still young. Let's assume that he goes heel around WM and stays heel building up to the NEXT WM where he is eventually defeated by Daniel Bryan or some such person. THEN what does he do? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603450] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> I was just saying that in principle a mixed reaction for the top heel isn't necessarily bad.Generally speaking, this is true.But I think we can't repeat enough what myself and Jak have already said. Turning Cena heel only makes any amount of sense if you're building "the next John Cena" and I just don't know who that would be. Even "heel Cena rules over the show" doesn't make a lot of sense unless he is ultimately defeated by an up and coming babyface.And man, Cena is still young. Let's assume that he goes heel around WM and stays heel building up to the NEXT WM where he is eventually defeated by Daniel Bryan or some such person. THEN what does he do? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 1:52:00 PM #325:	Jeez, it's so tempting to imagine Heel Cena one year in taking on 20-0 Undertaker at Wrestlemania, but I almost feel like him ending the Streak would make him SO overpowered that no one would buy anyone else beating him. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603451] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Jeez, it's so tempting to imagine Heel Cena one year in taking on 20-0 Undertaker at Wrestlemania, but I almost feel like him ending the Streak would make him SO overpowered that no one would buy anyone else beating him. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tom Bombadil 12/30/11 1:53:00 PM #326:	so you have Taker go over really what better end is left for the streak -- http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6126/tombombadil.jpg KrahenProphet, however, is! <cite>Tom Bombadil posted [p:603452] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> so you have Taker go overreally what better end is left for the streak -- http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6126/tombombadil.jpgKrahenProphet, however, is! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 1:54:00 PM #327:	From: JaKyL25 \| #325 Jeez, it's so tempting to imagine Heel Cena one year in taking on 20-0 Undertaker at Wrestlemania, but I almost feel like him ending the Streak would make him SO overpowered that no one would buy anyone else beating him. Hey, I started the "Cena ends the streak" bandwagon as soon as Taker beat HBK the first time! I still hope that match happens and I will cheer for Cena in it. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603453] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: JaKyL25 \| #325Jeez, it's so tempting to imagine Heel Cena one year in taking on 20-0 Undertaker at Wrestlemania, but I almost feel like him ending the Streak would make him SO overpowered that no one would buy anyone else beating him.Hey, I started the "Cena ends the streak" bandwagon as soon as Taker beat HBK the first time! I still hope that match happens and I will cheer for Cena in it. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
XIII_rocks 12/30/11 1:55:00 PM #328:	What in god's name what in god's name Goldust without his f*ing makeup WHAT IS THIS -- http://www.mariocube.nl/upload/XIII1008171346.jpg <cite>XIII_rocks posted [p:603454] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> What in god's namewhat in god's nameGoldust without his f*ing makeupWHAT IS THIS -- http://www.mariocube.nl/upload/XIII1008171346.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 1:58:00 PM #329:	From: Lopen \| #323 Man I disagree with that entirely. The end for pro wrestling is to create a compelling product. It's not about "building stars" just for the sake of building stars. The reason Sting should've beaten the nWo is not to put Sting over-- the dude was already as over as he needed to be-- it's because the nWo had run its course as a storyline and something new had to happen for the storylines to not become stale. And I gotta disagree with that view on history entirely. The nWo storyline was built, from DAY ONE of Scott Hall walking onto Nitro arguably, but from Fall Brawl 1996 definitely, to put Sting over. It's one thing for Cena and Rock to announce a match a year in advance and then say that their issues have been building for a year when they really haven't. It was another thing entirely to make fans CLAMOR for Sting to take Hogan down for an entire year, but to continue to deny them the match, until the tipping point was reached and it absolutely had to happen. It wasn't like Sting was just in the right place at the right time when the nWo started to get stale or something. I think that's a big misrepresentation. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603455] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: Lopen \| #323Man I disagree with that entirely. The end for pro wrestling is to create a compelling product. It's not about "building stars" just for the sake of building stars. The reason Sting should've beaten the nWo is not to put Sting over-- the dude was already as over as he needed to be-- it's because the nWo had run its course as a storyline and something new had to happen for the storylines to not become stale.And I gotta disagree with that view on history entirely.The nWo storyline was built, from DAY ONE of Scott Hall walking onto Nitro arguably, but from Fall Brawl 1996 definitely, to put Sting over.It's one thing for Cena and Rock to announce a match a year in advance and then say that their issues have been building for a year when they really haven't. It was another thing entirely to make fans CLAMOR for Sting to take Hogan down for an entire year, but to continue to deny them the match, until the tipping point was reached and it absolutely had to happen.It wasn't like Sting was just in the right place at the right time when the nWo started to get stale or something. I think that's a big misrepresentation. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 1:59:00 PM #330:	From: Tom Bombadil \| #326 so you have Taker go over really what better end is left for the streak Then all the Heel Cena saga has accomplished is sell one WM. Unless Undertaker is gonna carry the WWE into the next decade. <_< -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603456] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: Tom Bombadil \| #326so you have Taker go overreally what better end is left for the streakThen all the Heel Cena saga has accomplished is sell one WM. Unless Undertaker is gonna carry the WWE into the next decade. <_< -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 2:02:00 PM #331:	Also, keep in mind that the great heel domination of shows have never been just one guy. Cena would have to be in or be leading a stable. Of who exactly? And how does The Rock somehow trigger the initial turn when he's going to disappear right after WM anyway? If they were going to pull the trigger on something like this, they should have done it with the whole "Cena joins Nexus" thing. To do it now would just look dumb imo... -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603457] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Also, keep in mind that the great heel domination of shows have never been just one guy. Cena would have to be in or be leading a stable. Of who exactly? And how does The Rock somehow trigger the initial turn when he's going to disappear right after WM anyway?If they were going to pull the trigger on something like this, they should have done it with the whole "Cena joins Nexus" thing. To do it now would just look dumb imo... -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 12/30/11 2:07:00 PM #332:	That's not what I'm saying. I agree with you that the storyline was practically designed for Sting to win there-- but it's not because the idea was to put Sting over as a star, the point was to end the storyline at that point because it wasn't feasible to build up another entity to the amount you built Sting up to take the nWo down before the nWo got stale. And you should've been able to see that coming considering Sting was built up for a year and a half. I suppose with an alternate approach to Bill Goldberg you could've had him do it at the next Starrcade but I think that's pushing it and they should've known better. We'll never know cause they already had the nWo implode at that point so there was no more juggernaut to take down, and it wasn't satisfying from the storyline perspective because the villain never got taken down by a hero. What I'm saying is that whether Sting wins or loses most of him being built as a star was priming him to take the nWo down. Him actually going through and doing that doesn't really help him much. Do you think if Sting beats the nWo that suddenly he gets more cheers in 1998 than he did in 1997? I don't. The journey is what built him, the end is what you do depending on how the storyline is going creatively and how long it's been going with some foresight. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! <cite>Lopen posted [p:603458] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> That's not what I'm saying. I agree with you that the storyline was practically designed for Sting to win there-- but it's not because the idea was to put Sting over as a star, the point was to end the storyline at that point because it wasn't feasible to build up another entity to the amount you built Sting up to take the nWo down before the nWo got stale. And you should've been able to see that coming considering Sting was built up for a year and a half. I suppose with an alternate approach to Bill Goldberg you could've had him do it at the next Starrcade but I think that's pushing it and they should've known better. We'll never know cause they already had the nWo implode at that point so there was no more juggernaut to take down, and it wasn't satisfying from the storyline perspective because the villain never got taken down by a hero. What I'm saying is that whether Sting wins or loses most of him being built as a star was priming him to take the nWo down. Him actually going through and doing that doesn't really help him much. Do you think if Sting beats the nWo that suddenly he gets more cheers in 1998 than he did in 1997? I don't. The journey is what built him, the end is what you do depending on how the storyline is going creatively and how long it's been going with some foresight. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 2:08:00 PM #333:	From: Lopen \| #323 If you create good storylines everyone in the company gets bigger reactions just because the fans are more into it. It's why in the attitude era random midcard guys like Val Venis were getting bigger reactions than like 85% of the roster gets now. While I can agree with this statement in a vacuum, the industry isn't built on reactions. It's built on draws. No one, not even during the Attitude Era, was buying a ticket or ordering a PPV to see Val Venis. The amount of people who just want "a compelling product" is actually fairly small. History has shown that the biggest up periods for wrestling are when the biggest stars are around to draw people in. SmackDown in 2002, Raw in 2004, SmackDown in 2009, even Raw of the Summer of 2011--all of these were by any creative measure "compelling products." Yet they pale in comparison to objectively inferior products such as 1999 WWF when it comes to true bottom line success. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603459] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: Lopen \| #323If you create good storylines everyone in the company gets bigger reactions just because the fans are more into it. It's why in the attitude era random midcard guys like Val Venis were getting bigger reactions than like 85% of the roster gets now.While I can agree with this statement in a vacuum, the industry isn't built on reactions. It's built on draws. No one, not even during the Attitude Era, was buying a ticket or ordering a PPV to see Val Venis.The amount of people who just want "a compelling product" is actually fairly small. History has shown that the biggest up periods for wrestling are when the biggest stars are around to draw people in. SmackDown in 2002, Raw in 2004, SmackDown in 2009, even Raw of the Summer of 2011--all of these were by any creative measure "compelling products." Yet they pale in comparison to objectively inferior products such as 1999 WWF when it comes to true bottom line success. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 2:14:00 PM #334:	From: Lopen \| #332 That's not what I'm saying. I agree with you that the storyline was practically designed for Sting to win there-- but it's not because the idea was to put Sting over as a star, the point was to end the storyline at that point because it wasn't feasible to build up another entity to the amount you built Sting up to take the nWo down before the nWo got stale. The funny thing is that in WCW's eyes, they thought one reason why the WWF started to catch them was not enough nWo. That's why they split into 2 factions! -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603460] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: Lopen \| #332That's not what I'm saying. I agree with you that the storyline was practically designed for Sting to win there-- but it's not because the idea was to put Sting over as a star, the point was to end the storyline at that point because it wasn't feasible to build up another entity to the amount you built Sting up to take the nWo down before the nWo got stale.The funny thing is that in WCW's eyes, they thought one reason why the WWF started to catch them was not enough nWo. That's why they split into 2 factions! -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 12/30/11 2:17:00 PM #335:	Creating big stars is a biproduct of creating a compelling product is what I'm saying. The reason Rock and Austin were as big as they were was because the storylines being good allowed them to be so. You toss Rock and Austin in today's product as new blood, I don't think they live up to their late 90s legacies. In 2011, CM Punk was on his way-- CM Punk in 2011 if anything plays to my point and proves that compelling storylines will build guys up very effectively because the dude's reactions after just a couple of months of a storyline people really liked put him among the top dogs of the company. You can say Punk's skills did it too, but Punk's always had skills, never was able to get a reaction close to that. But they pulled the plug prematurely so he got stuck where he is now rather than becoming a mega star. SD 2009 was not compelling programming. It had a lot of good matches in a vacuum, but storylines? Nah. Don't recall the big sell of Raw 2004 or SD 2002 offhand which is probably enough for me to say that they're not as compelling as you think they are. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! <cite>Lopen posted [p:603461] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Creating big stars is a biproduct of creating a compelling product is what I'm saying. The reason Rock and Austin were as big as they were was because the storylines being good allowed them to be so. You toss Rock and Austin in today's product as new blood, I don't think they live up to their late 90s legacies. In 2011, CM Punk was on his way-- CM Punk in 2011 if anything plays to my point and proves that compelling storylines will build guys up very effectively because the dude's reactions after just a couple of months of a storyline people really liked put him among the top dogs of the company. You can say Punk's skills did it too, but Punk's always had skills, never was able to get a reaction close to that. But they pulled the plug prematurely so he got stuck where he is now rather than becoming a mega star. SD 2009 was not compelling programming. It had a lot of good matches in a vacuum, but storylines? Nah. Don't recall the big sell of Raw 2004 or SD 2002 offhand which is probably enough for me to say that they're not as compelling as you think they are. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 2:24:00 PM #336:	From: Lopen \| #335 Creating big stars is a biproduct of creating a compelling product is what I'm saying. The reason Rock and Austin were as big as they were was because the storylines being good allowed them to be so. You toss Rock and Austin in today's product as new blood, I don't think they live up to their late 90s legacies. Austin obviously would be hindered by the PG rating, but otherwise I think they would. They got some ASSTACULAR storylines in their early days in WWE and managed to get over despite them. Took a little longer for Rock than it did for Austin. >_> Actually come to think of it, Rock kinda got over completely on his own. He never beat someone who was more over than he was in a significant match until...Wrestlemania X8 0_o Austin did have Bret, and then Shawn, and then Taker put him over strongly. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603462] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: Lopen \| #335Creating big stars is a biproduct of creating a compelling product is what I'm saying. The reason Rock and Austin were as big as they were was because the storylines being good allowed them to be so. You toss Rock and Austin in today's product as new blood, I don't think they live up to their late 90s legacies.Austin obviously would be hindered by the PG rating, but otherwise I think they would. They got some ASSTACULAR storylines in their early days in WWE and managed to get over despite them. Took a little longer for Rock than it did for Austin. >_>Actually come to think of it, Rock kinda got over completely on his own. He never beat someone who was more over than he was in a significant match until...Wrestlemania X8 0_oAustin did have Bret, and then Shawn, and then Taker put him over strongly. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 12/30/11 2:28:00 PM #337:	So yeah I guess we sorta agree. Because uhh, I do think big stars are important, but I think compelling TV is what makes them (and keeps them) stars. You on the other hand seem to think that stars get made by good booking and then the stars will drive the product by themselves. I personally think that the gradual decline of 1999-2001 WWE and 1998 on WCW will tell you otherwise-- cause it's not like their stars all just packed up and left at that point. And honestly couldn't the point of turning Cena heel be to build Cena, too? Like Smuffin said the guy's young and while the dude's the top dog in the company but the top dog in the company of today doesn't touch the top dog of the company of ten years ago as far as reaction goes. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! <cite>Lopen posted [p:603463] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> So yeah I guess we sorta agree. Because uhh, I do think big stars are important, but I think compelling TV is what makes them (and keeps them) stars. You on the other hand seem to think that stars get made by good booking and then the stars will drive the product by themselves. I personally think that the gradual decline of 1999-2001 WWE and 1998 on WCW will tell you otherwise-- cause it's not like their stars all just packed up and left at that point. And honestly couldn't the point of turning Cena heel be to build Cena, too? Like Smuffin said the guy's young and while the dude's the top dog in the company but the top dog in the company of today doesn't touch the top dog of the company of ten years ago as far as reaction goes. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 2:37:00 PM #338:	From: Lopen \| #335 In 2011, CM Punk was on his way-- CM Punk in 2011 if anything plays to my point and proves that compelling storylines will build guys up very effectively because the dude's reactions after just a couple of months of a storyline people really liked put him among the top dogs of the company. You can say Punk's skills did it too, but Punk's always had skills, never was able to get a reaction close to that. But they pulled the plug prematurely so he got stuck where he is now rather than becoming a mega star. And my point is that those compelling storylines meant very little as far as truly turning Punk into a draw. The part that built him up was that his opponent was John Cena. If Randy Orton or Rey Mysterio was the figurehead face of WWE he was raging against, and the storyline was otherwise entirely the same, the whole thing falls apart. It's built off of Cena's drawing power, and Punk became a bigger star than ever before because he beat John Cena and because the company finally started treating him like a main-eventer (off and on). They used John Cena to create a star in CM Punk. The great storyline expedited the process, sure, I'll grant you that, but even mediocre storytelling could have accomplished the same goal as long as they booked Punk that strongly in the end still. SD 2009 was not compelling programming. It had a lot of good matches in a vacuum, but storylines? Nah. Don't recall the big sell of Raw 2004 or SD 2002 offhand which is probably enough for me to say that they're not as compelling as you think they are. SD 2009 = Rey vs. Jericho, Punk's heel turn/feud with Hardy, Ziggler's rise, Morrison's struggle against the glass ceiling...that wasn't compelling programming? That was the best product they've had creatively since 2002, and still is, Summer of Punk be damned. Raw 2004 = Benoit's run + the majority of the Evolution arc. Lots of great matches with plenty of solid storytelling. Not a lot of twists and turns but it all felt very well connected and the timing of the plot points flowed smoothly. SD 2002 = The SmackDown Six. Come on now! -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603464] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: Lopen \| #335In 2011, CM Punk was on his way-- CM Punk in 2011 if anything plays to my point and proves that compelling storylines will build guys up very effectively because the dude's reactions after just a couple of months of a storyline people really liked put him among the top dogs of the company. You can say Punk's skills did it too, but Punk's always had skills, never was able to get a reaction close to that. But they pulled the plug prematurely so he got stuck where he is now rather than becoming a mega star.And my point is that those compelling storylines meant very little as far as truly turning Punk into a draw. The part that built him up was that his opponent was John Cena. If Randy Orton or Rey Mysterio was the figurehead face of WWE he was raging against, and the storyline was otherwise entirely the same, the whole thing falls apart. It's built off of Cena's drawing power, and Punk became a bigger star than ever before because he beat John Cena and because the company finally started treating him like a main-eventer (off and on). They used John Cena to create a star in CM Punk. The great storyline expedited the process, sure, I'll grant you that, but even mediocre storytelling could have accomplished the same goal as long as they booked Punk that strongly in the end still.SD 2009 was not compelling programming. It had a lot of good matches in a vacuum, but storylines? Nah.Don't recall the big sell of Raw 2004 or SD 2002 offhand which is probably enough for me to say that they're not as compelling as you think they are.SD 2009 = Rey vs. Jericho, Punk's heel turn/feud with Hardy, Ziggler's rise, Morrison's struggle against the glass ceiling...that wasn't compelling programming? That was the best product they've had creatively since 2002, and still is, Summer of Punk be damned.Raw 2004 = Benoit's run + the majority of the Evolution arc. Lots of great matches with plenty of solid storytelling. Not a lot of twists and turns but it all felt very well connected and the timing of the plot points flowed smoothly.SD 2002 = The SmackDown Six. Come on now! -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 2:37:00 PM #339:	And honestly couldn't the point of turning Cena heel be to build Cena, too? To build him into what? For what purpose? He's already built. The fact that he's been a Superman face for his entire ME career is what makes Cena unique. It's what causes the controversy and the mixed reactions. If you take that away and make him just another guy who goes back and forth between face and heel depending on whatever the writers think they need at that particular moment, you're throwing away his entire character and everything that makes him unique and compelling. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603465] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> And honestly couldn't the point of turning Cena heel be to build Cena, too? To build him into what? For what purpose? He's already built. The fact that he's been a Superman face for his entire ME career is what makes Cena unique. It's what causes the controversy and the mixed reactions. If you take that away and make him just another guy who goes back and forth between face and heel depending on whatever the writers think they need at that particular moment, you're throwing away his entire character and everything that makes him unique and compelling. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 2:39:00 PM #340:	And my point is that those compelling storylines meant very little as far as truly turning Punk into a draw. The part that built him up was that his opponent was John Cena. If Randy Orton or Rey Mysterio was the figurehead face of WWE he was raging against, and the storyline was otherwise entirely the same, the whole thing falls apart. It's built off of Cena's drawing power, and Punk became a bigger star than ever before because he beat John Cena and because the company finally started treating him like a main-eventer (off and on). They used John Cena to create a star in CM Punk. The great storyline expedited the process, sure, I'll grant you that, but even mediocre storytelling could have accomplished the same goal as long as they booked Punk that strongly in the end still. Ehhhhh I'm not so sure about this. I think it was more based on Vince (and later HHH) being the implied opponent and Cena just being Vince's stand-in. Punk got over because he rebelled against authority. Cena wasn't the authority, he was just the authority's muscle. Saying that Punk got over because of Cena is like saying that Austin in 98 got over because of Dude Love or Kane or whoever <_< -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603466] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> And my point is that those compelling storylines meant very little as far as truly turning Punk into a draw. The part that built him up was that his opponent was John Cena. If Randy Orton or Rey Mysterio was the figurehead face of WWE he was raging against, and the storyline was otherwise entirely the same, the whole thing falls apart. It's built off of Cena's drawing power, and Punk became a bigger star than ever before because he beat John Cena and because the company finally started treating him like a main-eventer (off and on). They used John Cena to create a star in CM Punk. The great storyline expedited the process, sure, I'll grant you that, but even mediocre storytelling could have accomplished the same goal as long as they booked Punk that strongly in the end still.Ehhhhh I'm not so sure about this. I think it was more based on Vince (and later HHH) being the implied opponent and Cena just being Vince's stand-in. Punk got over because he rebelled against authority. Cena wasn't the authority, he was just the authority's muscle. Saying that Punk got over because of Cena is like saying that Austin in 98 got over because of Dude Love or Kane or whoever <_< -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 2:45:00 PM #341:	From: SmartMuffin \| #340 Ehhhhh I'm not so sure about this. I think it was more based on Vince (and later HHH) being the implied opponent and Cena just being Vince's stand-in. Punk got over because he rebelled against authority. Cena wasn't the authority, he was just the authority's muscle. Saying that Punk got over because of Cena is like saying that Austin in 98 got over because of Dude Love or Kane or whoever <_< Okay, if you want to look at it that way, it's still using the defeat of someone who is already established as over, via proxy, to elevate a new star. I guess we just disagree on the importance Cena played in getting Punk over then. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603467] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: SmartMuffin \| #340Ehhhhh I'm not so sure about this. I think it was more based on Vince (and later HHH) being the implied opponent and Cena just being Vince's stand-in. Punk got over because he rebelled against authority. Cena wasn't the authority, he was just the authority's muscle. Saying that Punk got over because of Cena is like saying that Austin in 98 got over because of Dude Love or Kane or whoever <_<Okay, if you want to look at it that way, it's still using the defeat of someone who is already established as over, via proxy, to elevate a new star. I guess we just disagree on the importance Cena played in getting Punk over then. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Lopen 12/30/11 2:48:00 PM #342:	From: JaKyL25 \| #338 And my point is that those compelling storylines meant very little as far as truly turning Punk into a draw. The part that built him up was that his opponent was John Cena. The question here is which gets Punk closer to where he is now? Punk raging against the machine and having his opponent be Randy Orton? (Let's try and forget that the storyline makes a lot less sense with Orton than Cena) Or Punk being booked in a series of matches against Cena where he comes off as a threat, then wins the championship, leaving Punk bashing the company and walking out and all that stuff out. I think it's very easily the former. You seem to be implying it's the latter. And yeah Raw 2004 doesn't touch the attitude era as far as storylines go. SD 2002 if anything helps again prove that storylines matter because that was mostly match/talent driven and the product was still declining there. From: SmartMuffin \| #339 To build him into what? For what purpose? He's already built. To build him into a star that can carry the company in a boom period rather than a start that can carry the company when it's on the downswing. Cena's the best in the company, but he's not a Rock or an Austin or a Hulk Hogan right now. Cena is a big fish in a small pond right now-- if the fish gets even bigger the pond will get bigger to accommodate it, if that makes sense. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! <cite>Lopen posted [p:603468] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: JaKyL25 \| #338And my point is that those compelling storylines meant very little as far as truly turning Punk into a draw. The part that built him up was that his opponent was John Cena.The question here is which gets Punk closer to where he is now? Punk raging against the machine and having his opponent be Randy Orton? (Let's try and forget that the storyline makes a lot less sense with Orton than Cena)Or Punk being booked in a series of matches against Cena where he comes off as a threat, then wins the championship, leaving Punk bashing the company and walking out and all that stuff out. I think it's very easily the former. You seem to be implying it's the latter. And yeah Raw 2004 doesn't touch the attitude era as far as storylines go. SD 2002 if anything helps again prove that storylines matter because that was mostly match/talent driven and the product was still declining there. From: SmartMuffin \| #339To build him into what? For what purpose? He's already built.To build him into a star that can carry the company in a boom period rather than a start that can carry the company when it's on the downswing. Cena's the best in the company, but he's not a Rock or an Austin or a Hulk Hogan right now. Cena is a big fish in a small pond right now-- if the fish gets even bigger the pond will get bigger to accommodate it, if that makes sense. -- I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 2:54:00 PM #343:	Uh, I don't think we're going to see a "boom period" like that ever again. Too many factors have changed to make that even close to a realistic goal. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603469] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Uh, I don't think we're going to see a "boom period" like that ever again. Too many factors have changed to make that even close to a realistic goal. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 2:55:00 PM #344:	From: Lopen \| #342 The question here is which gets Punk closer to where he is now? Punk raging against the machine and having his opponent be Randy Orton? (Let's try and forget that the storyline makes a lot less sense with Orton than Cena) Or Punk being booked in a series of matches against Cena where he comes off as a threat, then wins the championship. I think it's very easily the former. You seem to be implying it's the latter. You're right, I think it's the latter, so long as Punk is booked strongly in both cases and doesn't have the rug pulled out from under him. But also remember that I'm talking about building someone into a permanent draw. I don't disagree that great storylines can get people over short-term, or get huge reactions, but when it comes to having someone retain legitimacy amongst the audience, what matters most is how strongly they are booked. And yeah Raw 2004 doesn't touch the attitude era as far as storylines go. SD 2002 if anything helps again prove that storylines matter because that was mostly match/talent driven. Define "The Attitude Era." I'll take WWF 2000/early 2001 over any timeframe of any company that has ever existed, but everything with the exception of some ECW/NXT stuff in the last decade has been better creatively than the ** sandwich of 1999 WWF. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603470] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: Lopen \| #342The question here is which gets Punk closer to where he is now? Punk raging against the machine and having his opponent be Randy Orton? (Let's try and forget that the storyline makes a lot less sense with Orton than Cena)Or Punk being booked in a series of matches against Cena where he comes off as a threat, then wins the championship.I think it's very easily the former. You seem to be implying it's the latter.You're right, I think it's the latter, so long as Punk is booked strongly in both cases and doesn't have the rug pulled out from under him.But also remember that I'm talking about building someone into a permanent draw. I don't disagree that great storylines can get people over short-term, or get huge reactions, but when it comes to having someone retain legitimacy amongst the audience, what matters most is how strongly they are booked.And yeah Raw 2004 doesn't touch the attitude era as far as storylines go. SD 2002 if anything helps again prove that storylines matter because that was mostly match/talent driven.Define "The Attitude Era." I'll take WWF 2000/early 2001 over any timeframe of any company that has ever existed, but everything with the exception of some ECW/NXT stuff in the last decade has been better creatively than the ** sandwich of 1999 WWF. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 2:56:00 PM #345:	Look at it this way. Cena is already the top guy in WWE, and it's not even close. The only point to turning him heel would be to have him eventually lose to someone else so that someone else could supplant him as the top guy in WWE. Assuming that's even how the storyline ends. Jakyl should be all over this one, as he correctly predicted the ending to Immortal pretty early on. Who's to say that the dominating Cena-led heel stable ends up collapsing because Randy Orton or (god help us) HHH reaches out and brings "the real John Cena back" and Cena turns on his own stable? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603471] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> Look at it this way. Cena is already the top guy in WWE, and it's not even close.The only point to turning him heel would be to have him eventually lose to someone else so that someone else could supplant him as the top guy in WWE. Assuming that's even how the storyline ends. Jakyl should be all over this one, as he correctly predicted the ending to Immortal pretty early on.Who's to say that the dominating Cena-led heel stable ends up collapsing because Randy Orton or (god help us) HHH reaches out and brings "the real John Cena back" and Cena turns on his own stable? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 2:59:00 PM #346:	From: SmartMuffin \| #345 Who's to say that the dominating Cena-led heel stable ends up collapsing because Randy Orton or (god help us) HHH reaches out and brings "the real John Cena back" and Cena turns on his own stable? If they really wanted to neuter him to hell and back, put Punk in the Sting role! -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603472] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: SmartMuffin \| #345Who's to say that the dominating Cena-led heel stable ends up collapsing because Randy Orton or (god help us) HHH reaches out and brings "the real John Cena back" and Cena turns on his own stable?If they really wanted to neuter him to hell and back, put Punk in the Sting role! -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 3:00:00 PM #347:	From: JaKyL25 \| #346 If they really wanted to neuter him to hell and back, put Punk in the Sting role! I think that probably ends up hurting Punk's indie cred more than it hurts Cena <_< -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603473] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> From: JaKyL25 \| #346If they really wanted to neuter him to hell and back, put Punk in the Sting role!I think that probably ends up hurting Punk's indie cred more than it hurts Cena <_< -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 3:01:00 PM #348:	No, I meant if they really wanted to neuter PUNK to hell and back. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603474] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> No, I meant if they really wanted to neuter PUNK to hell and back. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 12/30/11 3:01:00 PM #349:	ah, yeah, that would do it -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:603475] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> ah, yeah, that would do it -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JaKyL25 12/30/11 3:03:00 PM #350:	And you know, Immortal helps support my case. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF IT? WHAT DID IT ACCOMPLISH? It's exactly what Lopen is talking about. They turned Jeff Hardy heel for no reason other than a creative shake-up. And yes, it did help creatively! Jeff was awesome as a tripped out heel. But did the audience grow? No. Did they create any new stars? No, outside of Bully Ray who created his own damn self. Is the company better off for having done the Immortal storyline? No. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg <cite>JaKyL25 posted [p:603476] in All-Purpos... [t:61482150]...</cite> <quote> And you know, Immortal helps support my case.WHAT WAS THE POINT OF IT? WHAT DID IT ACCOMPLISH?It's exactly what Lopen is talking about. They turned Jeff Hardy heel for no reason other than a creative shake-up. And yes, it did help creatively! Jeff was awesome as a tripped out heel. But did the audience grow? No. Did they create any new stars? No, outside of Bully Ray who created his own damn self. Is the company better off for having done the Immortal storyline? No. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Topic List	Page List: 1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 159: In Which We All Vote For Sheamus (+) Yeah! (+)

Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 159: In Which We All Vote For Sheamus