Lurker > Hornezz

Cemith posted...

Okay, so if he does it 3 days from now, are you still going to vote in Trump?

Never once have I advocated for voting in Trump.

All my qualms with Biden would disappear if he institutes a total arms ban. I'll even publicly endorse him for you.

Cemith posted...

But you tell me what the time frame that you're acceptable with,

He should start working on it today. Canada and Spain already managed to do it. The policy is in place.

The atrocities have been going on for months. Biden has chosen to deliver billions worth weapons well after the ICJ had ruled that there was a plausible genocide. It should have been done long ago.

Cemith posted...

Nobody's arguing it can't be done, this is another made up argument that people like you keep spouting so you can be sanctimonious. People are saying it's not going to happen overnight, and that everyone else is already pressuring Biden.

What they're arguing is that it's extremely difficult to undo several decades of bad foreign policy overnight, which is what you guys expect him to do.

You cannot purposefully be this dense and not be called out on it

Gimme a time frame then.

The goal posts have been moving tremendously since "a genocide will happen either way".

Kaldrenthebold posted...

I've posted times of Biden and the US government trying to put the screws to an ally that we've had for nearly a millenia and they expect it to happen ASAP 100% or else my vote is gone.

Canada and Spain recently withheld arms sales. US presidents have placed sanctions on Israel in the past. The U.S. Conventional Arms Transfer Policy is right there. It was written by Biden. It can be used by Biden.

Arguing that it cannot be done is not based on any truth.

Also, a millennium is 1000 years.

Will_VIIII posted...

I'm not happy with how Biden is handling the conflict so

...so I believe he should be pressured by his voter base. So that he addresses their concerns - which is how things work in a democracy - and actually puts his leverage to good use. Last year he revised an arms sales policy to prevent weapons being sold when they're used for war crimes. He should follow that policy. This is not a crazy demand.

By doing so he'll wipe away the biggest criticism that's hurting his election chances, and wins back the protest vote. I'll even happily endorse him.

It's beyond me why this scenario is so much more offensive to his voters than telling anti-genocide protestors that they are nazis who need to shut up about genocide.

Cemith posted...

Trump will ruin things for everyone, Biden will ruin things for less people.

Right. Good reason for him to go out and win some votes I would say.

But you're vehemently against that. It's ludicrous.

Yazarogi posted...

Thank you Hornezz for advocating for an even worse genocide for Palestinians.

Nothing what I've said has advocated for that.
This is a complete delusion.

Cemith posted...

Better than being cool with domestic stripping of rights under a fascist regime

Insisting that "Biden doesn't need to win voters" in an election year is bringing that fascist regime a lot closer to reality than demanding a president to follow his own policies on human rights ever will.

MrMojoRising posted...

Really enjoying all the arguments about how not voting for Joe because he's perpetrating a genocide means that I'm actually pro-genocide. I guess that's the kind of stuff you have to tell yourself, though.

They have to. Because 'endorsing dropping bombs on Palestinian children because that somehow saves the world from a Trump dictatorship' sounds a lot better than 'endorsing dropping bombs on Palestinian children because its in America's geopolitical interests'.

rynobot posted...

Obviously this dude wants more Genocide. Uncle Joe is just too restrained for his taste for death.

The absolute brain worms needed to say shit like this. You're all working really hard in reassuring yourselves that accepting bombs on Palestinians is somehow necessary for the greater good. That it's actually the nazis who are telling you to protest against genocide.

It's bullshit. This is not winning voters for Biden. There's no evidence whatsoever that says Biden would lose if he pivots.

SaikyoStyle posted...

No tolerance for collaborators.

Absolutely. No tolerance for genocide either. Or for anyone supporting it. Or for anyone justifying it.

SaikyoStyle posted...

I do not tolerate collaborators.

> refuses to denounce genocide
> accuses someone else of nazism

Hmm.

SaikyoStyle posted...

People are offended by the fact that youre a collaborator.

Do you believe support for genocide is a deal breaker when you vote?

Is it something you can accept from a candidate?

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

There it is. Thanks for playing

So you see no situation where he stops supporting genocide?

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

So are you going to vote for him

Depends. Is he going to stop supporting genocide?

Because that's a deal breaker for me. And for some reason people are offended by that.

creativerealms posted...

We don't have a viable choice that doesn't support Israel's actions. I know that's terrible but it's the truth. Because both candidates will support the actions of the Israeli government no matter what

I don't believe that. Biden will pivot with enough pressure. His rhetoric has already been changing compared to a few months ago. There's still more than half a year for Biden to do the right thing and win voters.

There is no option that's stops the genocide in Palestine. So I am looking at whose better for America, and for the rest of the world.

Just not true though. There are clear and obvious steps that can be taken into pressuring Israel. We should not ever give up resisting it so easy.

CE actually turning into a pro-genocide circlejerk was not on my calendar a few months ago.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Okay can you show me your preferred candidate then?

I only have a choice between 2 people, one of which will actively make my country worse, and take rights away from people I care about. Please tell me what to do in this scenario.

You join protests and pressure Biden into changing his stance on Israel. He can use his leverage to make a meaningful difference and save lives. And he will, as long as there's enough electoral pressure. And when he does, he deserves the vote.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

whats happening in palestine is terrible. Trump will make both that conflict and America worse so im voting for Biden.

Telling voters that there is no other choice but genocide is not actually helping Biden win the election.

Cemith posted...

When they're walking over the bodies of the queer people they gunned down for sport, your abstention will be duly noted.

There's something absolutely vile about making these sort of threats while in the same breath defending this:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/4/4684e379.jpg
How's that brave fight against fascism of yours going so far? Are ya winning yet?

rynobot posted...

Don't let them fool you, they are fascists lying in the weeds.

Surely you mean the sort of people who argue that politicians should do whatever they want and still deserve unconditional loyalty from their base? Surely you mean the sort of people who argue that sometimes genocides is acceptable for the greater good?

Or do you have a very creative different definition of fascism?

"Biden can change! And also all options include genocide!"
"I never accepted genocide! And also me accepting genocide means I'm fighting fascism!"

You haven't made a single honest post in this whole topic.

Now please tell me why Biden has to earn your vote when the other one is a fascist.

I don't give a damn about who you choose to blame or thank for the next election results. Feel free to delude yourself in to believing that politicians don't need to earn votes and that voters should just fall in line even if that means accepting genocide.

There's no such thing as an acceptable genocide, and fuck everyone who argues otherwise.

Cemith posted...

You tell me exactly what part of "I want the president that's most likely to fold under public pressure to win the election" is "accepting genocide".

Don't deny what you said when it's right here in front of you. I literally just quoted you on three separate times saying that all options include genocide.

I'll give you a fourth even.

When I told you: "Begrudgingly accepting genocide as an inevitability isn't the brave battle against fascism you seem to think it is", you replied with "It is":
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80737505/979715260

Biden could still fold. Trump will never fold.

Which is what I've been arguing the whole damn time.

Like holy shit are you so blinded in your reflexive need to defend Biden at all cost that you actually haven't noticed I've been arguing in favor of him getting elected? No wonder it feels like I'm talking to a brick wall.

bfslick50 posted...

Yep. If the international community didn't ask for answers then those 7 killed would 100% be listed as killed members of Hamas.

Right. The uncomfortable truth is that their passports matter here. Just like with the three Israeli hostages that were shot. IDF cannot possibly sweep these under the rug.

There's been 20,000 civilian deaths including aid workers, health care workers and unprecedented amounts of journalists. Those killed with only a Palestinian passport are not offered this sort of scrutiny, and generally don't get their names and photos shown in the internationals newspapers.

hockeybabe89 posted...

Remember when Obama drone striked a bunch of hospitals

https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/1501968139000725505

When she's right, she's right.

Tanthalas posted...

So are you going to vote Biden now or continue complaining that he did nothing?

He did the absolute minimum what he should have done months ago. The US also voted against a UNHRC resolution today that will hold Israel accountable for war crimes.

Biden needs to suspend arms transfers as long as the human right violations continue. That's not just a demand that I'm making, it's the policy that Biden himself set but does not adhere to.

Quartermuncher posted...

Palestinians are gonna have to take some Personal Responsibility for starters.

Does that include the 13,000 or so children that have been killed?

xsdarknesssx posted...

I cba to read all of that, but when it comes to private browser modes I was always under the impression that all I was really doing was hiding what I was doing from people that took a cursory look at something like browser history if they accessed my computer.

Yes that's correct. It just deletes local data like cookies and history.

If a website decides to log ip addresses or keep fingerprints of users all serverside, incognito does nothing to prevent that.

Kaldrenthebold posted...

https://gazette.com/news/us-world/biden-threatens-change-in-us-policy-if-netanyahu-fails-

to-protect-gaza-civilians/article_01d72545-e165-5f31-afa6-5fa107c15e72.html

Biden seeks to leverage aid to force Israel to take better care with civilians and aid workers. Seems reasonable to me. Trump would surely do this.

Yeah, one phone call and Biden already made Netanyahu fire senior army officers, open up a border crossing and allowing a port to be used for aid shipments.

This is the power the US has over Israel. People have been arguing up and down that Biden could not and would not do these things. Imagine how many lives could be saved if Biden actually started to wave his metaphorical dick around.

nocturnal_traveler posted...

Suppose Biden doesn't change his position on Israel. What then?

Complicity in genocide is never acceptable. No exceptions. There's no justification of supporting it whatsoever.

nocturnal_traveler posted...

FYI, outside of internet polls and some activists, most Americans don't give a shit about the Israel/Palestinian conflict.

Ok, so you don't actually have to argue against people protesting a genocide but you still choose to?

Rika_Furude posted...

YOU not voting for anyone means

Stop strawmanning.

Can you actually quote the post where I said I definitely would not be voting for anyone?

We don't want to be strawmanning right?

My stance has always been that threatening to withhold your vote should be an option on the table to pressure a politician into changing. That is not the same as 'not voting for anyone'. Biden has more than half a year to convince voters to come back.

Rika_Furude posted...

if you support a trump win by not voting

Telling a candidate to listen to a large amount of his own voter base is not supporting his opponent.

Bizarre mental gymnastics are needed to reach that conclusion.

nocturnal_traveler posted...

I'm not wrong, though. America is stuck with a two party system. If you didn't want Biden on the ballot, enough of you should've voted in the primaries.

At no point have I advocated for a third candidate. Not even the first time I've had to say this ITT:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80738550/979740351

There's also the option of Biden being pressured into changing his point. Which is what I've been hammering for dozens of posts.

None of you are actually reading anything, just reacting reflexively. See Biden criticism => must type "Trump worse"

Rika_Furude posted...

Trumpworse is the reason Biden is the default vote for humans with morals. I dont see you pressuring Trump to be better

I'm pressuring Biden to win the election. Surely that's preferable to any sort of 'better Trump' that you're imagining.

The endless Trumpworse loop continues

- Biden doing bad things is okay, because Trump is worse
- Biden going against the wishes of his own base is okay, because Trump is worse
- Biden causing his voters to stay at home is okay, because Trump is worse
- Biden handing Trump the election win is... uh, well, Trump's worse

havean776 posted...

And if he doesn't than my friends are simply a sacrifice you are more than happy to make.

The people arguing that Biden can safely cruise to a win without having to listen to his voters are making that gamble. Not me.

Telling a politician to listen to his voters isn't some crazy demand; it's how basic democracy works. Yet so many of you will resist that idea at all costs, and would gladly pull out all kinds of baseless accusations just because you believe your favorite politician is exempt from criticism.

nocturnal_traveler posted...

So from what I'm gathering from this topic, it's a-ok for lgbtq people to die, women to have their rights stripped away, minorities to be oppressed, and Muslim Americans to die, just as long as the Dems are taught a lesson.

Yeah, it's crazy the sort of high stakes people are willing to gamble when they argue that politicians don't need to win votes and that they would just win by default.

Not me though. I think Biden and his campaign team should absolutely do their utmost best to appeal to voters and win that election.

But I'm guessing that's not what you meant.

hockeybabe89 posted...

Then the only viable candidate not named Trump should win by default. Why would convincing be needed?

If you want Biden to win, you should want him to convince as many people as possible to vote for him.

There's no such thing as winning by default. If you really believe an election can be won without campaigning and appealing to voters, I don't know what to tell you. It's not gonna end well.

And at the same time: if you're so absolutely sure that Biden can win without having to convince voters (he won't), why be bothered about abstaining voters in the first place? He'll win by default right? (he won't - this is a bad idea)

Cemith posted...

You guys keep creating this argument and it's laughably fucking dumb. No one is accepting genocide,

Your words: "It isn't my fault that my only real choices are Gazan Genocide but I have rights or Gazan Genocide but I and millions of others don't have rights."

Also your words: "Genocide happens either way, chief."

When I asked whether genocide in Gaza and genocide in Gaza + US were the only choice, you answered yes:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-cur
rent-events/80738550/979739657

All the options you provide include genocide for Gazans. That sounds like acceptance.

everyone knows we need to pressure Biden.

So do it then, instead of arguing with everyone protesting a fucking genocide.

Not one single person has claimed Biden wouldn't change policy.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-cur
rent-events/80738550/979740039

StarFighters76 posted...

You haven't established a damn thing. Just because you say it, doesn't mean you fully comprehend it. People are voting for Biden BECAUSE Trump will be much worse. You can't just move past that fact. However you are expecting people to move past it. You know what that says? It says you don't give a crap about Trump being worse, quite possibly, because you'd rather have him around than Biden, who knows really?

Yes Trump is worse.

Yes Trump is worse.

Yes Trump is worse.

Yes Trump is worse.

Yes Trump is worse.

We should stop him from getting elected. We do that not by telling voters that genocide is the only option, but by telling Biden to take a moral stance.

(inb4 but trump is worse)

Cemith posted...

Israel will be supported until we as a nation pressure Biden into change. We can only stop Israel incrementally and voting in Trump is the end of Gaza as we know it.

Holy shit we agree!

Cemith posted...

About fucking time one of you centrists said as much. I don't know why it took y'all so fucking long to do this.

Not a centrist. I posted that same message almost verbatim in a previous topic, twice.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80737505/979710920
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80737505/979712258
Cemith posted...

Maybe because people like you are all gung-ho for downplaying the actual threat he poses to the literal future of democracy.

You made this up. I never did that.

Whining about how "Biden needs a better plan to win votes" as though voting against a fascist is a privilege to be earned. If voting against a fascist rise to power isn't a compelling enough reason to vote Biden, fuck off forever.

There's this bizarre rhetoric again. Previously you outright told me that Biden doesn't need to win votes because the other candidate is a fascist. Now I'm telling you: his opponent being a fascist is pretty damn good reason for Biden to go out and win votes. But so many of you seem to think "nah, just accept genocide, Biden is entitled to your vote no matter what". It's not just immoral and undemocratic but even on a pragmatic level: it's not helping him win.

mistymermaid posted...

You're trying to bait people.

Into what? Into explaining why accepting genocide is the more preferable option over pressuring a politician on listening to his voters? If so, yes, I really want to know the answer to that.

Cemith posted...

Not one single person has claimed Biden wouldn't change policy.

You say this like you haven't been arguing for dozens of posts that there is no alternative to genocide.

Cemith posted...

Trump will be exponentially and quantifiably worse for everyone. You have not acknowledged this, as far as anyone can tell.

I have, numerous times. For months. I'll help you again: TRUMP WILL BE WORSE. Including on Gaza. On every other topic too.

Now that we've established that, can we PLEASE move past this "but Trump worse". You tell me I'm exhausting but this is all I'm seeing on loop every time I enter a topic.

==> Try to actually think about how to prevent a Trump win. Sending more bombs to Israel isn't winning voters for Biden. Lying about Israel's war crimes isn't either. Nor is Biden fans shouting that genocide is the only option, and that protesters are maga chuds for thinking otherwise.

If this is truly about making Biden win at all costs, why are so many of you hellbent on a PR strategy that's so fucking disastrous?

hockeybabe89 posted...

But at some point you need to decide if you want to save what you can,

Right. And telling people that genocide is the only option is the complete opposite of that.

It's not helping Biden win the election either.

mistymermaid posted...

Improbable, I was only naming something he could do that's less repugnant than going to bat for Trump.

Try for once just to move beyond 'but Trump'

Why in the hell are you arguing for a third candidate at this point in the election cycle, and how in the hell would that be preferably in beating Trum, more so than telling Biden to stop with his wildly impopular actions that are costing him voters?

Cemith posted...

So you do not acknowledge the reality of our two party system. As such, you have outed yourself as a clown who does not live in the reality they should. No one should take you seriously from here onward until you acknowledge the reality of the two party ststem.

Feel free to actually provide proof that it's outright impossible for Biden to make a change in his policy. Canada did it. Previous presidents did it. Biden has already sharply changed his tone, all that's left is actions. You have brought absolutely not one piece of evidence to the table.

You refuse to accept anything other than genocide and have actually deluded yourself into believing this is for a good reason. There's no such thing as a genocide for the greater good.

mistymermaid posted...

You're deflecting. That has nothing to do with the reality at the ballot box.

The options are:
* Biden
* Trump
* Third party
* No vote

Your opinion of Biden will not put a different candidate on the ballot.

Read my posts, at no point have I argued for a different candidate.

Biden has more than half a year to do right by his voters (and basic international human rights for that matter), and win the election.

hockeybabe89 posted...

It should be impossible for Biden to lose voters since he's not as bad as Trump.

Biden SHOULDN'T support war crimes in Gaza, but does
=> this is something you're willing to accept

Voters SHOULDN'T need convincing to vote for Biden, but do
=> this is something you firmly oppose, and are willing to argue at length about

Odd that electing Biden AT ALL COSTS includes accepting fucking genocide, but demanding a politician to listen to his own voters in a democracy is too high of a cost?

Cemith posted...

Do you acknowledge the binary reality of the Electoral College and each candidates stance on Gaza?

Absolutely not. Biden can change and stop his support for genocide.
You have provided no evidence whatsoever to prove this is impossible.

You just don't want him to.