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Abrams's movies in particular feel like they take after Indiana Jones at least somewhat given their focus on MacGuffins. Again, given Abrams previously directed Super 8 and Raiders of the Lost Ark's screenwriter had a writing credit on The Force Awakens, I can't help but think there's no coincidence - and I know at least one review of TFA at the time did cite Kasdan's previous work on Indy as influencing the movie. Not to mention producer Kathleen Kennedy's involvement on every prior movie in that franchise to boot. Though maybe I'm just seeing Indiana Jones everywhere because he's my favorite fictional character and I think about him a lot?

There's also the whole deal about people who feel like the sequel trilogy might as well be MCU movies. I have never agreed with that given how none of the things both have in common were invented by the MCU...but given how much influence the MCU itself takes from '80s sci-fi and action movies like Lethal Weapon and RoboCop, I can't help but wonder if the sequel trilogy had similar influences to at least some extent.

I did not see Bombshell.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

What does this mean?

It just kind of feels like the trilogy owes at least as much to other sci-fi and action movies of the '80s and '90s as it does to the previous six movies if not more. Doesn't help that Abrams directed Super 8 (a bigtime homage to Spielberg's past work) and that the screenwriter of Raiders of the Lost Ark has a co-writing credit on The Force Awakens (when his only previous brush with Star Wars was a screenplay credit on Empire Strikes Back).

I genuinely think the sequel trilogy amounts to more of how '80s or '90s Hollywood would have followed up the original trilogy. And by Hollywood I mean not George Lucas.

I was not serious tbf.

I also personally don't get the whole idea that the Star Wars sequel trilogy is misandrist, and the only reason it makes sense is if people were already biased against Rey being the focus instead of the original trilogy heroes. Otherwise by that logic 99.99999% of all movies ever made are very misogynistic.

Yeah I'm not entirely serious, it's just that in a way Cruise and Willis were responsible for unleashing Abrams and Johnson on the world. Although I genuinely think both are talented and Johnson in particular is PROBABLY more suited for the franchise than Abrams.

Makes sense. Abrams would have never gotten into directing movies if Cruise wasn't sufficiently impressed with his work on Alias, and Johnson's only wide release before TLJ starred Willis.

At this point the very fact of the matter that Trump first gained ground in the Republican Party through vocal opposition to Bush-era foreign policy means Bush might as well be a Democrat.

That reminds me of when one of the anti-anti-progressive YouTubers I follow posted a clip of their response to a MauLer podcast called "The Assassination of Chris Stuckmann by the Coward Chris Stuckmann" (which was a reaction to Stuckmann's video on Madame Web which he did not consider to be a proper review but more a commentary on how the movie allegedly represents the worst of the studio system) where I saw The Critical Drinker say "Sony probably wants a good Madame Web movie". While this may be true in the broadest sense possible, how naive would you have to be to realize after all the horror stories that have come out about the entertainment industry that executives typically care more about selling crap than about making quality art? Especially considering this particular studio's track record with Spider-Man...oh wait, I guess Spider-Man 3 and The Amazing Spider-Man 2 are too far in the past for people to remember.

Since both movies in question are reasonably relevant to Madame Web, I'll say I broadly had similar problems with both Venom and Captain Marvel regarding how those movies seemed to substitute potential substance either movie could have had for what moviegoing audiences would find bankable regarding the Venom character and the MCU respectively. That's also why I thought the idea Disney had to inflate the latter movie's box office was laughable right from the get go, and even discounting its sequel genuinely bombing hard (apparently it's doing well on streaming though?) I've realized even more holes in that theory as time passes (e.g. the fact Dark Phoenix bombed so hard that Disney reported a financial underperformance for that fiscal quarter in spite of Endgame, so evidently they weren't concerned about covering losses there. Not to mention Disney was in the process of finalizing a $60 billion+ acquisition of another entire movie studio when Captain Marvel came out - inflating one movie's box office wouldn't be so much uncharacteristically evil for Disney so much as it would be uncharacteristically petty).

Speaking of which, The Marvels bombing because Disney couldn't promote it properly (due to the actor's strike) is another example of how stupid moviegoing audiences are since I can fully believe the kinds of people who would normally watch Marvel movies weren't even aware it had come out and only see them because of their event status. And on a similar note, movies like Gods of Egypt (incidentally same writers as Madame Web) and the live-action Ghost in the Shell getting overshadowed by whitewashing controversies limiting the amount of coverage the press was willing to give movies like those also makes it clear how important it is to get the word out. I also probably brought up earlier how I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there was market research showing that female moviegoers had a higher preference for seeing female leads than male moviegoers for their gender. Doesn't help I know at least one instance where a creative was allegedly told to confrontationally accuse people of sexism for not seeing their movie (Elizabeth Banks regarding her failed Charlie's Angels revival), so I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the same was true for cases like Paul Feig and Ghostbusters, Tim Miller and Terminator: Dark Fate (doesn't help he disowned it afterwards), James Mangold and the new Indiana Jones movie, etc.

On a more positive note, the highest-grossing comic book movie last year domestically had a woman and a black guy in the lead. And the highest-grossing comic book movie the year before domestically had a black woman in the lead. Go woke, go broke!

Still think Trump has more to lose compared to last time than Biden. Biden is merely another four years older. Trump is also four years older, is no longer the incumbent, and is way more controversial than he was even back then. And Biden is still way less controversial than Hillary Clinton was in 2016, even if her controversies were dumb.

Previously I was thinking Trump's floor in the national election was 55 million votes. Now I'm thinking his ceiling is 60 million votes.

I don't know if it means anything but a YouTube channel I follow put up a poll asking if they think the 2020 election was stolen from Trump and over 40% voted yes. I guess if you're deep enough in the echo chamber...

MacArrowny posted...

I think it's more that people were less hyped for DoD because Crystal Skull wasn't very liked.

Yeah I didn't hear people talking much about Dial before it came out.

At this point I'm thinking something like Trump gets 60 million votes in the presidential election while Biden gets like 70 million or something, and third-party support goes way up compared to 2020. Still think Trump has more reason to lose ground on Biden compared to 2020 than the other way around, seeing how he's no longer the incumbent and wasn't the guy that was under criminal investigation for attempting to subvert election results back then - merely at worst the guy who saw millions of people die under his watch due to his mishandling of Covid after a strong economy during his tenure beforehand.

I just remember seeing a small clip from the EFAP (Every Frame A Pause, MauLer's podcast where he and some like-minded other content creators riff on YT videos) where the Critical Drinker said something like "I think Sony would prefer a good Madame Web movie". While that is broadly speaking probably more true than not, it also seems like a ridiculously naive position to make considering a lot of horror stories about executive meddling, especially considering Sony has a history of it regarding the studio's Spider-Man movies. Doesn't help the final battle of the movie apparently involves a neon Pepsi sign, plus Johnson admitting she signed on to a different script than what was used. Not to mention the director seems to have all her prior credits in TV.

Also I'm increasingly beginning to think YT is an outlier at best and a hotbed for bigotry at worst (most of the reason this doesn't come to mind is because most of the YouTubers I follow the closest do not have far-right views). It feels like, for instance, there was a lot more skepticism towards the Barbie movie there than virtually anywhere else where the movie was heavily hyped, and I feel like I hear more bile spewed at both Captain Marvel movies there than on the rest of the Internet combined.

Speaking of which, since we derailed the conversation to the MCU earlier anyway, am I the only one who feels like there was overall too much skepticism surrounding The Marvels director Nia DaCosta pre-release, at least considering people acting like she was "inexperienced" and was hired for "diversity" reasons despite having as many prior directorial credits as Ryan Coogler did when Black Panther came out and it being just as charitable to assume Monica Rambeau's actress Teyonah Parris recommended her after they did Candyman together...then again I guess that would require people to keep track of what actors play who and who directed what. Also I guess I don't keep such a close eye on the race and gender of the people making and acting in movies, maybe because I'm not white myself? I feel like a bit of a weirdo since I watch mostly older movies and yet I tend to notice the relative lack of roles for women and POC in them more than the comparative abundance of them in newer movies.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if there was market research indicating that women prefer to see movies with female leads and people of color movies with non-white leads (especially their own ethnicity) while men don't have as strong a preference to see movies with male leads and ditto white people for movies with white leads. Considering how stupid Hollywood executives are, it would explain a lot of crap that has come out within the past decade or so.

He made a video about Madame Web decrying the perils of studio interference, citing Sony engaging in such for both Spider-Man 3 and The Amazing Spider-Man series and the mixed-at-best reception to the Sony Spider-Man Universe (the supposedly official term for the collective Spider-Man-adjacent movies), and I guess because he said he wasn't "reviewing" the movie, people were confused? And decided to call him out on not having the "courage" to rip into the movie even though he specifically said he was tired of that kind of content - and who could blame him?

It actually got a surprising amount of coverage from other YouTubers...although given it seems most of the board isn't attentive towards YT I should have probably clarified that yes.

Did you guys hear about Chris Stuckmann's "not review" of Madame Web?

Fwiw I had heard of Iron Man before his movie, but I didn't really know anything about him. And apparently the MCU version has like nothing to do with his previous portrayals and was more of a self-insert for RDJ comparatively.

Actually I feel like A LOT of actors playing comic book heroes nowadays are kind of just playing themselves. I get that vibe out of Scarlett Johansson as Black Widow, Chris Evans as Captain America, Chris Pratt as Star-Lord, Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool, Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, and Brie Larson as Captain Marvel to name but a few. I personally have no problem with it though, more of an observation. If anything I find all of the celebrities in question likeable enough I find it more of a positive, regardless of the odd controversy regarding some of them.

Anagram posted...

I mean, even if you believe that Iron Man was a D-list character pre-2008, he also had the advantages of being played by an A-list actor, superheroes not being a completely saturated genre at the time, and his movie not being complete trash.

An actor widely perceived as a has-been for his run-ins with the law at the time.

And yeah like I said I feel like they made a Madame Web movie just because they wanted to make a female-led movie after Wonder Woman and especially Captain Marvel were such big hits and Marvel Studios must have decided a bunch of higher-profile heroines or super villainesses were off-limits. Apparently there was going to be a Silver & Black movie but it got re-purposed into a TV series so yikes.

Also fwiw Garfield was going to be given a third Spidey movie until he was let go for criticizing Sony's handling of the franchise.

So Biden is apparently doing better in the Democratic primaries than Trump is in the Republican primaries even though the latter party is effectively a Trump cult?

At least Sony doesn't sink a fortune into these Spider-Man adjacent movies unlike SOME studios. Then again like I said I also do genuinely appreciate how these "Sony Spider-Man Universe" movies tell largely standalone stories (key word being largely, I know they're trying to tie it into the MCU in clumsy ways), and I also appreciated the second Venom movie embracing the whacky humor as a way to distinguish it from the MCU (where the humor is more of the snarky kind) even if the script still left much to be desired.

I'm sure that's true on some level, but it felt like in late 2018 and early 2019 it felt like there was a stretch of time where ANY comic book movie could do well if it didn't run into sufficient competition regardless of how well it was received. There's a reason Aquaman is the highest-grossing DC Comics movie even above movies people talk about more like The Dark Knight and Joker, to say nothing of Venom and Captain Marvel. And all three of the movies in question (meaning Venom, Aquaman, and Captain Marvel) were met with their fair share of skepticism before release to, even if in at least one case said skepticism was dumb.

Also am I the only one tired of Sony getting hated on? People acted like they were responsible for briefly yanking Spider-Man out of the MCU when that was actually Disney's handiwork. And it's disheartening that when people do hate on Disney they hate on it for being supposedly socially progressive even though Disney reeks of playing catchup in that department, but that's another story.

With Madame Web in particular, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Sony higher-ups saw Wonder Woman and especially Captain Marvel being big hits and decided to just make a movie about whatever Spider-Man adjacent character they could use that Marvel Studios had no plans for. Too bad it turns out EVERY studio seems to have had that idea. It's definitely admirable that there have been more female-led comic book movies this decade than there had been PERIOD beforehand, but women by themselves do not sell. This is like the negaverse of the time where Hollywood executives used to justify not having female-led comic book movies by pointing to the poor performances of Catwoman and Elektra. I say this since apparently some men did express interest in seeing Madame Web just because there are so many beautiful women, so I would not be surprised if this is where the creative process began and ended at least at the executive level.

I mean Venom was bad and still made all the money.

I have another movie-related one but I won't suggest it yet to avoid request spam.

Cinergi Pictures

Another one where I remember The Runaway Guys playthrough where they kept getting it and groaning over it outside of the one time where the three of them AND the computer player teamed up to keep BAZA BAZA BAZA going. I was going to ask you to rank the Baza Baza meme but decided not to after your non-reaction to Move Faster Pokey and not getting the Should We Do Daisy on Hard meme.

Next to rank: A Day at the Races (Mario Party 2 minigame)

The Beat Goes On

Should we do Daisy on hard?

How is Adam barely winning?

I'll throw Deep Rising in there as another guilty pleasure candidate.

Lol Madame Web, we can't even stay on topic!

Kaizo Mario World

TLJ getting fodderized, good. I honestly feel like if I had seen the movie when it came out without knowledge of the fan backlash, it would have just been another Star Wars movie to me.

Move faster, Pokey!

I unironically like The Rock, but it's far from flawless. Anyway back to Spider-Man...oh the Bad Boys movies are also Sony, there's your connection!

If it matters, no I don't think Armageddon is a bad movie because Roger Ebert told me to. I wasn't even aware what he thought of the movie when I first saw Armageddon. Also fwiw his former co-host Gene Siskel actually recommended it. Roger gave the movie 1 star out of 4 when I'd give it 1.5-2 stars.

The way I understand it, Morbius was getting memed on because it was announced in 2020 and then delayed 2 years while Sony kept hyping it. Otherwise I don't get it.

As for whether a movie is so bad it's good, I'd put Batman & Robin in a borderline case since the actual plot is excruciatingly boring while the movie fails in tons of other ways (phony sets, bad costumes, dialogue full of one-liners and winks to the camera, awkward fight scenes) that get amusing because of how much they pile up. I think the first time I saw Armageddon I found it to be hilariously bad, but when I re-watched it I just found it mind-numbingly boring because of the sensory overload. Um hey Van Helsing has some cool fight scenes, but I'd call it a guilty pleasure at best and not really so bad it's good.

ProtonJon

He also liked the newest Ant-Man movie more than Black Widow, Eternals, Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, and Thor: Love & Thunder as well as The Marvels.

Highly doubt I'll actually watch Madame Web or Morbius anytime soon. The Marvels is being saved for watching with family.

8 or 9. Far from flawless but largely accomplishes what it sets out to do.

Dennis Hopper

One of the main movie guys I watch on YouTube, Dan Murrell, thought it was less bad than Morbius. He also thought it was less bad than The Marvels though.

Anya Taylor-Joy

Aecioo posted...

you edited this twice

it's impressive, the posts that you make

On this topic, I also remembered that Josh Trank explicitly cited The Fly as an influence on his ill-fated Fantastic Four movie. So obviously comic book movies should never look to The Fly as inspiration.

Wait, I just realized that Morbius has a similar premise to The Fly and Madame Web to The Dead Zone. What David Cronenberg movie is going to be dumbed down next to fit into Sony's Spider-Man Universe? Videodrome? Scanners?