Lurker > UnfairRepresent

Blue_Target posted...

Never understood why it needed to play in sporting events.

Also never understood the Pledge of Allegiance in schools.

Republicans in congress got mad that Democrats refused to take the Pledge TWICE during congress sessions when Dems said doing it more than once is a pointless waste of time

It's madness

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This is politics

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FortuneCookie posted...

She's pretty much doing what I'd do if I had the patience to draw.

erm...

ok..

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viewmaster_pi posted...

lol come on

it's not even the weirdest thing they did

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Fun fact: I literally had ever heard of this brand until the controversy.

So I got like no stake in this

Which made me laugh out loud at how mad people got. Even if the name "Aunt Jemima" offends you for some reason, how the fuck often are you looking at pancake mix boxes?

I literally never saw a single one or an advert or heard anyone talk about it yet it ruined your life?

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I'm aware that there's a ton more games but there's only 10 options in the poll.



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monkmith posted...

i'm gonna make a wild guess and say that the gambling website will refuse to pay...

Yeah I'm sure there's something in the bet agreement that will cover this

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The Box says it's from California doe.

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You go to take a piss or something and on your way there you walk down the hall and see nothing.

But on the way back suddenly you see a cardboard box in the middle of the floor. You didn't see or hear anything inbetween.



How do you react?
What do you do?

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harley2280 posted...

You gotta listen to his side of the story. He may have had a good reason for beating her. Maybe she talked to him like she was a person.

/s

I actually agree with the notion that it's wrong to assume a dude is guilty just by virtue of being accused of a crime

I just question why that seemingly is only being brought up with gusto when it comes to rich guys allegedly beating up women

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Smackems posted...

Man that'd be funny as fuck and make the world a brighter place

They'd have to cluck too

Made me think of that Japanese Hentai that had a guy who sounded just like Dan Green doing his Yu-gi-Oh voice.

"CLUCK LIKE A CHICKEN! NOW!"

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BeyondWalls posted...

Ellie should rip off her mask and be like, Ha! I was Joel the entire time!

M. Night Shyamalan: "Write that down! WRITE THAT DOWN!"

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Darmik posted...

That there is no real moral superior group.

Oh shut up.

The cannibals and bandits are not morally inferior to Marlene or Tommy? Get the fuck outta here

Joel did not believe he was doing the right thing for a second. He was doing the selfish thing for Joel.

Tommy was trying to make a community
Fireflies were trying to ensure the survival of the human race.

Joel was lying and murdering for his own selfish happiness.

The Fireflies and Tommy are morally superior to Joel and not selfish. That's literally the point. Joel is not a good person.

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Joel is still alive . Turns out Abby missed a spot

Like Kenny you just kinda bump into him in a cabin and he pulls a Jontron 'I just left'

Then does plot stuff and no one really talks about it

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I guess it depends on how you define "lay" but women have eggs and ovulate.

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Shablagoo posted...

The Last of Us Part II SPOILERS

Thats a retrofitted thing from the sequel. It was not at all what the first game presented.

Yes it is. Entirely.

The sequel only hammered the point home because guys like you and Darmik kept making excuses for Joel

They couldn't have pushed any harder how selfish and evil Joel's actions were. Executing Marlene and Surgeons, lying to Ellie's face.

This was never supposed to be a debate. If the camera was behind Marlene and not Joel you would never defend it.

Darmik posted...

You're not supposed to think the Fireflies did either. That's what you keep ignoring for some reason.

Not ignoring a thing. Unlike you

Neither actions were acceptable and the Fireflies were not portrayed as a morally superior group.

Except they were. Fireflies actions were to save the human race and build a future for the world.

Joel's actions were mass murder and lying so he could be happy and fuck everyone else.

Fireflies are morally superior. Completely. Joel is a monster

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CommunismFTW posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVHR0UPHERQ

"How many Cardassian civilians did you kill!?"
"Look, I regret a lot of what I had to do!"
"How convenient of you."

Such a good episode.

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j
Proto_Spark posted...

You aren't supposed to say "well one of these was obviously the only acceptable option"

Yes you are.

The game (and the sequel) hammer that home over and over and over and over.

Joel lied to Ellie's face, he murdered Marlene and Surgeons, he destroyed the chance of a vaccine

The ENTIRE point is that Joel made a selfish and evil action. That's his arc...

If you go "Well actually Joel did everything right and the Fireflies are evil for spending decades to work tirelessly to save humanity. So really there was no character development whatsoever, the complex was no different to a bandit outpost really and Joel never lied to Ellie." then everything falls apart.

What Joel did was completely and utterly unacceptable from a moral and pragmatic standpoint.

that's the point, if you remove that point then the whole story becomes pointless.

This is crazy. You're not supposed to think Joel did the right thing.

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ThePieReborn posted...

I have not, and it's almost entirely because I just felt... there wasn't any real point? I see ME as being all about the Reaper conflict, and so it just felt wrong(?) to divert away from that and the main cast. I would have rather had expansion of the big squadmate's backstories. Lord knows there's plenty to work with there. I'd be all over stuff for Garrus and Tali.

One of my biggest fanboy lorekeep bullshit triggers is that "Well let's just leave and go somewhere else." actually works.

It completely undermines the literal point of the Reapers.

They're wiping everyone out so synthetic life can never reach an apex where it can wipe everyone out..... Except there's tons of unwiped out organic life outside the Galaxy which has existed for billions of years and never had this problem

And also people in this galaxy can just leave it.... and presumably create the synthetic singularity as they do so?...

I know I know, I'm overthinking it. but the sheer existence of ME:A just instantly makes the Reapers not only wrong but incredibly fucking stupid.

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I did and I enjoyed it

But it was definately the weakest of the series and didn't need to exist.

I think the telling thing for me is that I played it once and then never again. Felt no desire too.

So much filler, so much bad writing and even the premise is questionable.

Where as I've played ME1-3 multiple times. Even 3.

There were somethings I really liked though: Like the ending:

You control your sister for a moment to show you how far you've come since level 1.
You've actually learned from your journey and grown as a character, using your knowledge to your advantage.
Characters you helped actually turn up...well voice clips at least to work with you in the finale.

It's actually climatic and you know what you're fighting for. It's good stuff.

I think as bad as Mass Effect 3's awful ending was, at least it was an ending. Mass Effect was over. And Citadel felt like a fantastic send off.

Keeping it going just felt like beating a dead horse. Sometimes franchises should end. That's fine

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Well at least you're now admitting Joel is a bad person who does evil and selfish things.

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Proto_Spark posted...

Its made abundantly clear that Joel makes a selfish and dangerous decision, that he makes a terrible one by lying to Ellie, and possibly destroys his relationship with her when she sees straight through his shit.

Yes

Proto_Spark posted...

But its also not as basic a choice being made as "kill Ellie or save everyone" its "kill Ellie and let these bumbling idiots maybe have a chance at saving everyone (when there's no proof they have any idea what they're doing), but even if it works its also well too late since civilization has already collapsed" making Ellie have effectively died for nothing.

No

I'm tired of repeating myself but on a story level this doesn't add up with what's presented or the actions of the characters.

And on a meta level, it turns the plot and character arcs into complete dogshit.

"Maybe if Joker didn't put a pencil in that guy's eye in TDK that guy would have gone on to eat babies/cure cancer!" doesn't turn that scene into a moral dilemma, it's just being weird and antithetical to the movie on both a story and meta level.

Darmik posted...

The point of both games is that there isn't really a true villain or a true hero. People do violent things to get what they want and people suffer for it.

Sure? That's like every single story not made for childre. And Joel is a villain.

What a "True hero" and "True Villain" is I'll leave up to you.

but Joel is a bad person who does evil and selfish things.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiqnN6EU3Q0

Fun fact: This scene was censored in the UK on release due to it's justification for the IRA.

I would love to see the reaction if they tried that shit now in Picard or Discovery with a modern post 9/11 audience.

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Atralis posted...

It isn't even about that in my mind. He wants to take Ellie, find his brother and live the rest of his life protecting the last two people he cares about in the world. He isn't the Joker he is just done sacrificing for the greater good.

Sure, I wasn't trying to imply he was like the Joker or wanted the world to fail or wanted people to die.

But he was a man who had lost himself. Been empty and depressed and soulless for decades.

Now finally out of no where has a reason to live again, has happiness, has a purpose... And the world is going to take it all away from him.... again

He can't take that. He can't handle that. The pain, the lonliness, the depression, the lack of purpose, the misery as he ages with nothing in his life?

So fuck the world. It's time for me to get mine. Doesn't care what Ellie wants, doesn't care about "saving the human race" it's time for me to be happy. I deserve it.

Actions of bitterness and fear.

That's evil and selfish but it's a character arc.

Joel is not supposed to be a good person. He's a villain. That's the point. That's the story.

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Atralis posted...

This...

The argument that the solution to the moral dilemma is that there is no moral dilemma because the cure couldn't possibly work has always seemed childish to me. The whole point is for you to think about the fact that Joel is basically massacring the scientists that for all we know are closest to finding a cure and possibly right on the verge of finding one. We know that Ellie would ultimately choose to make the sacrifice if she was given the choice but Joel makes it for her.

Joel is fully aware that he is mortal, he has lived a life of immense hardship and suffering and has lived through the end of the world in constant battle killing and seeing friends die all around him, hell he has even had a daughter killed 'for the greater good' before. You can understand why he would make the choice he made even if he thought Ellie could basically be turned into a cure. He doesn't care about 'the world' as much as he cares about the person right beside him.

Agreed

Especially that last sentence

"The world fucked me, so I fucked the world." is Joel in one sentence.

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Darmik posted...

That's not comparable because those people can't help having those organs. The Fireflies are in control of their actions and are making the decision for both Joel and Ellie.

Ellie can't help being the key to the cure.

And they didn't make the decision for Joel. Just Ellie.

But the point that you're too cowardly to concede despite knowing you're wrong is "Lying to your daughter and commiting mass murder of innocent people to doom the Earth is the act of a loving father. No Father would ever allow a daughter to die under any circumstances!" is complete nonsense.

hence why you keep having to say "nonono, ignore all context, ignore the plot, ignore the scenario. Just in the abstract moral dilemma of the Trolley problem. That's it." to justify it

Your comparisons consistently fail at including this. Fireflies were going to kill Ellie without her consent. Saying "well she would have consented" isn't a defense. It's something psychopaths say. If they had the moral high ground she would have consented plain and simple.

Well she did consent.

But yeah I fully agree that Fireflies wouldn't have cared and didn't care.

None of that excuses what Joel did.

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Proto_Spark posted...

But the scientist didn't get bit by a zombie. He got himself infected by a monkey that was showing no symptoms because he was too negligent to follow his own procedure.

Ok?

If you want another story reason the fireflies are garbage, after Joel gets Ellie to the base, The Fireflies completely reneg on their deal and treat not murdering the man who brought over the miracle child as a gift.

Yeah they're terrorists. And if Marlene had executed Joel then they would have had a vaccine.

But she showed mercy and compassion because she's a good person. In response, Joel murdered everyone and lied to Ellie.

Proto_Spark posted...

This. There's a reason she talks about what to do with Joel after they finish. She definitely didn't know the circumstances of anything going in, and was taken from the cusp of drowning straight into surgery so she couldn't consent to anything even if she wanted to. Not to mention the Fireflies were clearly not interested in her actually consenting either.

I agree. The Fireflies didn't give a shit if Ellie consented or not. They wanted their cure. If Ellie had woken up and said no, they would have just knocked her out.

But Joel knew and probably Marlene knew Ellie would consent.

Hence why Joel lied to her.

"The Fireflies did not let Ellie consent!" is not a justification for their actions and Joel never even pretended it was.

When he pulled Ellie out of there, he did not say "Well they didn't ask you if you wanted to go ahead with it, so naturally I killed them all." because he knows how fucking stupid that would be.

So he lies. Just like you lie to defend him.

No one honest can deny Joel's actions are evil. Joel can't even deny it.

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Darmik posted...

Essentially you're saying that murdering a teenage girl to try and find a zombie cure is morally right and selfless.

Isn't that a bit scary?

Not really?

In this incredibly specific scenario.

I think it's morally wrong to shoot midgets with rocket launchers but don't consider killing Salazar morally wrong in the context of Resident Evil 4.

You're right in that if you remove literally all the reasons why Joel's actions are evil and selfish then they are no longer evil and selfish

But that's like saying "If we ignore the fact OJ killed 2 people, he's innocent of murder right?" what's the point? What are you even saying here?

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Darmik posted...

Ellie absolutely did not know she was supposed to die when she got to the Fireflies. They never once told her. They lied to her just as much as Joel did.

I'm not sure Marlene even knew until after the fact. But either way, I'm not disagreeing with you. They would have killed Ellie regardless.

But what you're intetionally ignoring is:

1. Ellie would have consented
2. They did to create a vaccine.

Where as Joel was just evil selfishness/

It's easy to say you would do the right thing in that scenario

Yes it is

Darmik posted...

It's the moral dilemma of sacrificing one life to save many.

Kinda? It's a very very specific one.

You can try and spin it to other bizarre scenarios as much as you like. There wasn't even a guarantee that it would work or would change anything in TLOU.

Sure but from a story perspective it would have. The entire drama and character arcs and plot depend on it.

There's no garantee Ellie wouldn't have slipped and drowned if she actually attempted to murder Abby at the end.

But it would be a dumb point to argue,

Would you sacrifice your loved one to save lives? That's the moral dilemma. Most people are selfish enough to default to no. Which is understandable. It does not make someone evil to do anything to save their family.

I don't agree with this at all. It seems to compeltely be missing Joel's entire character arc and ignoring the plot of the game.

"It's not evil to save your family!" is such an immensely dishonest retort of the point stated that's silly.

That sentence in a vacuum? No. What Joel did however was evil and selfish.

Darmik posted...

Again it's a pretty basic moral dilemma that most parents empathize with.

Just ignoring every point raised and saying "AGain [something dumb]!" doesn't stop you from saying something dumb.

It doesn't make it different that it's a zombie apocalypse or that Joel lied to maintain their relationship.

Yes it does.

As I said earlier, by your logic it's not evil and selfish to murder people to get organs for your family if your daughter needed a transplant.

Context does matter. And the fact you're literally ignoring the entire plot and character/actions/context of Joel to defend him to me is a big fat confession that know full well his actions are indefensible.

You've literally gone "Well have you heard of the trolly problem?" as your defense of Joel's actions. It's comically absurd.


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Proto_Spark posted...

But it isn't just the militia is taking them down, but its stuff like the researcher is stupid enough to let the monkey out so it can bite him and destroy the entire lab. It wasn't an accident, it was negligence. The fact that the doctors are immediately jumping to vivisecting Ellie instead of running more tests to try to save what they consider the one thing that matters in the world in a non-lethal way.

Theres also nothing to say that they actually have any research into a vaccine. Just that with Ellie they maybe could. There's nothing concrete that there's even hope for a vaccine, just that the fireflies may have deluded themselves into this last hope, and Ellie may have bought into it so everything that's happened can be for something. Neither of these say that a vaccine is actually possible.

I disagree with this.

On a story level the "WHY THEY RUSH ELLIE INTO VACCINE!?" question is because time is of the essence. They need the vaccine ASAP and any time wasted is time where they could be attacked by Zombies, raiders, militias. They could lose control of the facilitity , the surgeons could die.

They are confident they have the vaccine and there's nothing in the story to suggest they don't. "A scientist got bit by a zombie" doesn't demonstrate that the vaccine doesn't exist, it's just more fuel to the fire of how determined such a resource limited group is.

From a meta level. If the Fireflies are just village idiots with no idea what they are doing and there is no vaccine, the story and character arc of Joel falls apart. Why does he lie to Ellie? Why the finale dramatic at all? And not just another outpost of morons like the bandits. Why is it dramatic to brutally execute surgeons and Marlene if they are country bumpkins who don't know what they are doing?

It's like going "Well the Death Star would have exploded anyway even if it wasn't attacked."

I don't think that's true on a story level, nothing demonstrates it and even if it is true, on a meta level that's just stupid and ruins the plot.

Proto_Spark posted...

The plot of the game seems to suggest that the future of the world isn't with a vaccine like the Fireflies are so desperate to get, but settlements like Tommy's dam community and that one in the sewers you go through. Because the apocalypse has effectively happened already. outside of very specific circumstances, the zombies aren't the biggest threat anymore, contrasting with the difficulties of actually rebuilding against other people.

Not really?

Tommy's settlement is already under attack by bandits, more and more of the country is impossible to travel and the Zombie are getting worse.

As supplies get worse, bandits get more desperate, ALL zombies become the hyper dangerous fat ones. Communities like Tommy's are doomed.

I thought the point of TLOU1 wasn't the zombies are getting worse,

The zombies are getting worse. The Superzombies you meet are storywise just people who have been Zombies for longer. The longer you are a zombie, the tougher you become. If Isolationist communtiies like Tommy are all that's left with no growth, within decades there will be super zombies everywhere and no room to grow.

Because 90% of the zombie encounters in TLOU1 are more like "wait, hold up, lets take this slow" because zombies aren't that big of a threat. they are a threat, but they are also basic and something you can handle. The bigger problem is other people.

Again, not really? You need a gasmask just to survive the spores and travel is crazy dangerous. Zombies are everywhere, what few paths are Zombie safe arefull of bandits.

Resources are extremely limited and getting worse. Outposts are struggling.

Sure people infighting and being evil and selfish like Joel are "The bigger problem" in a story sense, the reason why people are acting like that is because of Zombies, which is getting worse.

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Fun fact about that Star Trek clip:

It aired during "The Troubles" a string of IRA bombings and terrorist attacks and censored it in the UK because of implication that the terrorism would result in Ireland unification.

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Darmik posted...

The first time you see Fireflies in TLOU1 is them car bombing a military checkpoint. Hardly some selfless altruistic group.

https://youtu.be/yiqnN6EU3Q0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StFB2g0urhA

Guess what Luke Skywalker was?

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Darmik posted...

- Joel lied to Ellie because he didn't want their relationship to change.

Yes because he is selfish egotist who knew Ellie would have gone along with the procedure.

He admitted what he did to Tommy. It had nothing to do with him thinking it was bad. He wouldn't have done it any differently

What's your point here?

- When did Ellie give her consent to the fireflies?

She didn't. But she flat out said she would die for the cure. Joel knew this, Marlene knew this, which is why he lied.

If my daughter said "I'd give my life to save others" in a conversation that doesn't mean an external group takes that as consent when in that situation. Not letting Ellie wake up and be aware of any sort of sacrifice is not selfless. The only person that could talk down Joel was Ellie. They were never given the chance to have that sort of closure. Nobody treated Ellie fairly. The situation itself is inherently unfair and it's handled poorly.

He did it because he didn't want to lose Ellie. How many fathers would give up their kids lives to cure COVID?

This is a false equivlancy. Covid and being 20 years into a Zombie apocalypse are not comparable. Even the Black Death isn't comparable.

A more apt question would be if a comet was going to hit the Earth and your daughter was an astronaunt in space who could stop it, but she's literally the only one who could.

NASA have remote control over her ship and will intercept the comet. You know she would consent to this.

So you burst into NASA, murder everyone, force the ship to land back on Earth, lie to your daughter that you did this, say the comet is going to be stopped anyway and doom the entire planet.

That's not loving father, that's evil selfishness.

Pretty easy to judge and call if evil if you aren't in that situation.

Yup

Pretty easy to judge and call it evil in the situation too. Joel even knows it was wrong. Hence why he lied.

This is a pretty basic moral dilemma to understand both sides for dude

I didn't say I didn't understand it. just that Joel's actions are evil and selfish.

Understanding why people do selfish and evil acts doesn't stop them from being selfish and evil dude.

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Zikten posted...

The fireflies were also selfish. The only person that could be selfless in that situation is Ellie. Again. Fuck the fireflies

I don't agree.

While It's true that the fireflies are more than willing to kill to achieve their goals. They are the only faction in the plot whose actions are altruistic

They are putting their lives and families on the line, dedicating what limited resources they have and years of effort and time into finding a way for humanity to thrive rather than die out.

Almost every member of the Fireflies could have a happier or easier life by not being in it.

In a world of people looking out for themselves, full of bandits, ruthless dying communities and desperate starving homeless families. They are the only ones who trying to improve the lives of others.

That's selfless.

There's more going on in the universe of TLOU2 than Ellie's ultimate surgery in the finale.

Do you think Tommy wouldn't murder people to save his shitty town? Fireflies are doing the same thing just on a global scale rather than for themselves.

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Darmik posted...

We know that she would do it but and no the point is not moot. The Fireflies never once talked about it with her or Joel and never gave her a choice. They did not have consent.

Actually they did. But they didn't care about it.

Neither did Joel.

Darmik posted...

Yes they thought they were doing the right thing from their perspective. But due to the way they handled it they crossed a grieving father and paid the price. That's the point. Both sides believed they were doing the right thing. The one person who could have solved the dispute never had a chance to have her own say.

Joel absolutely did not believe he was doing the right thing. That's why he lied and murdered people.

Joel knew he was being selfish and the Fireflies and Ellie were being selfless. But he didn't give a fuck about anyone who wasn't him.

Ellie already said she was willing to die for the cure and Joel flat out lied to her about what he did when he pulled her away from the facility. Your "Ohh if only they could have asked Ellie, Joel wouldn't have killed everyone!" is not only silly, but it flat out destroys the character arc and finale of the plot.

Darmik posted...

Where Abby and Lev end up was always their goal. That had nothing to do with Ellie and Tommy.

That's a half -truth.

The events that then proceeded where due to Ellie, Tommy and their pets constantly attacking and killing them. Who knows what might have happened in a different time where Manny and Owen.... I forget their names. Other pregnant lady and dog and black lady.

What might have happened if Manny was there in the confrontation with Isaac? or if Owen was on the boat at the end when he abandons his family.

It's a huge assumption to assume her and Lev would end up without Owen and in the same bandit ambush.

This is the butterfly effect.

Proto_Spark posted...

This is a great video. TLOU is really heavy handed about how **** the Fireflies were at their jobs that makes it really hard to disagree with Joel.

I disagree (note I only watched the video from the timestamp)

It's bending over backwards to make dumb excuses for Joel while avoiding the entire plot of the game. It's a Zombie apocolypse, decades into it. What soceities are left are small and unsustainable, large swabs of land are inhabitable.

The Fireflies are a terrorist group with minimal resources. The fact they are able to exist and (successfully) research a Zombie vaccine is an incredible testament to their ability. The game never puts any doubt into the story that the vaccine would work and if it did then that would utterly destroy the point of the finale and Joel's character arc.

Going "Well the milita's with 40 times the manpower and resources keep pushing them back and one researcher got infected. Therefore they are incompetent" seems to be intentionally ignoring the plot and backdrop of the game. He's treating the Fireflies like they are a Big Pharma in the present day and not a terrorist organization inside literal hell being attacked at all sides by nature itself, a lack of supplies and a far superior enemy militarized force.

The Fireflies are clearly demonstrated to be determined and fucking miracle workers.

Zikten posted...

I havent played 2 but the fact it exists and is set years later tells me that humanity was not doomed. But even before 2 got announced I have been saying Joel did nothing wrong. Fuck the fireflies

Yeah 2 kinda dropped on the ball on this and a lot of things.

In TLOU1 the idea was that the zombies are getting worse. There are no sustainable supplies. There is no large scale government. What socieities are left are restricting all human rights just to function at the bare minimum standard and more and more and more of the country is becoming impossible to traverse.

Then in TLOU2 the zombies are the same, supplies are easily sustainable, little girls can run farms in the open with no danger, there are large successful communities with electricity and decent levels of human rights and small children can tranverse the entire nation without any real difficulty.

But I think it's safe to assume this was an oversight to piss poor writing standards. The point of the TLOU1 from a plot perspective is clearly the vaccine is a big big deal. It'd save millions of lives and allow the human race to actually flourish rather than die out.

I think that is still true in TLOU2 even though the plot and gameplay utterly fail to demonstrate it.

Darmik posted...

If that hospital abducted her while she was still alive for her organs to give to someone else I definitely think a father would kill people to save her life. That's literally what happened. They wouldn't just sit back and say "Welp she agreed to give up her organs in conversation. I'll just let it go."

No that's not "literally what happened." you're ignoring this is a Zombie apocaylpse, she's willing to go through with it, fought to get to the hospital and she will create a vaccine.

What you were arguing is "Well needless murder and lying to chain your daughter to you forever is an act of a loving father" and it is not.

It's the act of a sociopath. Doing evil and purely selfish things for himself

Joel did not want to be alone again, not have a reason to live again and have the world take away what was his again. After decades of loneliness he finally had SOMETHING that gave him reason to live and he would not accept it going away

That's not fatherly love. That's bitterness. That's anger and resentment. That's fear and egotism. That's not treating Ellie as a person.

Joel is a bad man.

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Darmik posted...

He was robbed of the chance of having that conversation with Ellie. Any father who loves their daughter would do anything to save their daughter from death. From his perspective she had no choice. He wasn't wrong.

This is bullshit

He is wrong

he did have the conversation, he knew Ellie was prepared to die for this, that's why he lied to her face after the fact

This is what I mean about lying about the product

If Ellie had woken up in the facility, Joel would still have dragged her out of it for his own selfishness

Also no , there are lots of things a loving father wouldn't do. Such as mass murder and lying to their kids.

That's what a psychopath on an ego trip does , not a loving father

When a daughter gets put on a waiting list for an organ transplant her dad doesn't run to the park, kill the nearest people and hand over their organs

That's what B movie horror villains do

Guess what Joel is? A B movie horror villain

That's his arc

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Darmik posted...

Nobody treated her like a person. That's the point. There's a reason they rushed her to surgery before she could even wake up. Both Joel and the Fireflies robbed her of her choice. Both end up paying the price for it.

I think you're right in that the Fireflies would have murdered her regardless but we know Ellie would have agreed, so that point Is moot

I also don't think they "rushed her into surgery quick before she can say no" they did it ASAP because they want your vaccine . They wouldn't have cared what Ellie said

Who even knows In 3weeks time if they would still have the facility? Time is of the essence

Darmik posted...

Zombies don't use golf clubs. Even then if murdered everyone and got away with it how would Abby and the gang handle that? They struggled enough with what they did as is. Pretending they were doing the right thing and pursued justice is why they were all on board.

They all would have gotten over it except Owen who would fuck off on boss boat like the deadbeat dad he is.

Manny would have thrown a damn party

Also if the plot continued to play the same but Ellie was murdered ironically Abby would also end up dead. Her act of mercy towards Ellie ends up saving her in the long term.

Only because of actions set into effect by Ellie and Tommy and Jesse and their pregnant friend

If Ellie and Tommy were nothing but brain matter on Manny's shoe, Abby would never need saving

You need to reverse my Inquisitor gauntlet before you try this logic Mr Lister sir!

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Darmik posted...

From an outside perspective Joel did not do the right thing. But most fathers would do the same thing if they could. Joel saw Ellie as his daughter and loved her. He did the wrong thing for his right reason.

I'm critical of this too

Joel's actions were very selfish for a father

He violated his daughters wishes, lies to her, murders her friends and dooms humanity

Thats not what someone who loves their daughter would do

Joel is more selfish than that

Ellie made him happy and got him out of depression. For the first time in years he had a reason to live again, and the world was going to take it away from him... again

Joel's actions were pure egotism, selfish and evil

"The world fucked me so I fucked the world"

Not the actions of a loving father, the actions more akin to an addict who needed a fix.

He couldn't go back to that emptiness that consumed him for decades, so he did what was good for him and fuck everyone else

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Darmik posted...

The Fireflies lose because they were dishonest about the procedure and assumed Joel had no emotional attachment to the girl they were going to dissect without her permission. If they took their time and treated Ellie like an actual person things wouldn't have escalated so quickly.

Not true even slightly

Marlene blatantly knows what Joel feels about Ellie and shows him sympathy and mercy twice instead of killing him

As a result she died

And Joel is the one who didn't treat Ellie as a person, violating her wishes and lying to her so he could be happy.

He used Ellie like a toy for his own pleasure, not as a human being he respected

Darmik posted...

There were several people in the town looking for vengeance. By killing Tommy and Ellie they'd have even more people out for their blood.

Not really true

The people in Town wouldn't know who did it or why (if they even knew it wasnt zombies) and the fireflies would be long gone

They only know who did it because Tommy and Ellie were spared.

That mercy got them all killed

Well except Abby because the plot was a mess

If they actually treated people like people when in a position of power both groups would have fared

indeed


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InYourWalls1 posted...

tlou2 is a critique of vengeance

Ironically both games teach that vengeance is good thing if you go all the way.

The Fireflies lose in TLOU1 because Marlene shows Joel mercy and saves him

Then they lose again in TLOU2 because they show Ellie mercy and let her go

It's unintentional but the message of the games is basically that Miller's Crossing was right "I always tell my boys, one in the head"

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BignutzisBack posted...

One of the many reasons the sequel was a bad game

The first game beat you over the head with how what Joel did was evil too

It had you literally butcher doctors, doom humanity, abuse children and execute Marlene who just put her gun down and moments before save your life.

And none of that is even hyperbole...

Joel's actions are blatantly evil. The game couldn't have demonstrated that any further

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I4NRulez posted...

So why is this book being talked about now? Google says it came out like 5 years ago

soneone finally read it lol

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pegusus123456 posted...

No.

All arguments about whether the Fireflies are capable of making a vaccine/cure or what they'd do with it are absolutely irrelevant because none of that factored into Joel's decision. Joel believed they were capable of it. Joel knew Ellie would willingly die for the effort. Joel murdered Marlene - Ellie's adopted mother - solely to stop her from going after them. Joel lied about the situation when Ellie asked about it.

Joel saved her because he refused to go through another daughter dying. It's understandable. It's sympathetic. And it's selfish.

Exactly

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CouldBeAnAlt posted...

There's no doubt joel was selfish but his decision was based on his attachment to his surrogate daughter not because he was some amoral douche lol

It was both.

He was an amoral douche who did immensely evil actions for entirely selfish reasons.

CouldBeAnAlt posted...

You just compared a guy who literally murdered people for the lulz to a fictional character.

My point which you are intentionally pretending you don't understand is that people are lying and making excuses for the indefensiable because they got attached to the guy.

This is something you see in life and media a lot. Take away the soundtrack and camera and talk about Joel's actions solely in the abstract and absolutely no one other than a complete lunatic would even begin to think of argung that his actions were a good thing.

The game and its sequel went out of their way to railroad how it wasn't. The entire character arc and plot relies on the fact it wasn't.

The story doesn't even have any meaning or crescendo if it was the right thing to do.

Joel lied to a child, murdered innocent people and doomed humaity so he could be happy because he didn't give a single fuck about anyone else.

That's not the right thing. That's evil. Joel is a villain. The game never even attempted to hide that, it's not subtle.

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Case and point

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People saying yes astound me.

Both TLOU1 and 2 go so far out of their way to slap you in the face with the fact that what Joel did was evil and selfish and yet fans literally lie about the content of the product to defend him.

It goes a long way towards explaining things like Trump's base and how cults work.

Joel literally murdered people, he prevented the creation of a vaccine that would potentially save humanity and he lied to Ellie directly going against what he knew was her wishes, all because he selfishly missed his daughter and found a reason to live again through Ellie.

"The world fucked me so I fucked the world." the guy is a sociopath.

Claiming he did the right thing is fucking bonkers.

I swear stick a camera and a soundtrack behind Amon Gth and people would claim he was a hero

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An Orlando man, who kept a journal about hating people because of their sexual orientation, cut the power to the home of a New Smyrna Beach gay couple and attacked one of them, police said.

Damiek Jones, 31, was arrested Monday and charged with committing a second-degree misdemeanor with prejudice, aggravated battery with a deadly weapon, possession of methamphetamine, possession of drug paraphernalia and possession of a Schedule IV substance. Jones was being held in the Volusia County Branch Jail on Tuesday on $25,500 bail.

"The defendant also committed the crime with prejudice based on the sexual orientation of the victim," New Smyrna Beach police investigators noted in an arrest report.

Police said that on Sunday at 11:16 p.m. they were called to a stabbing at an Inwood Avenue home.
Police learned that the victim and his boyfriend were sitting in their home when the power went out. The victim exited the home to check the circuit breaker and was hit in the head, possibly with brass knuckles, police said.

When the victim fell to the ground the attacker, later identified as Jones, stabbed him multiple times in the legs with a chisel, a report states.

Police said they found the man bleeding from multiple stab wounds to the back of his thighs and a cut on his head. The victim said that during the attack a bandana came off Jones' face and he recognized him, investigators said.

Jones knew the home had surveillance cameras and that's why he probably cut the power before the attack, the victim told police, according to a report.

The victims boyfriend said he heard yelling, chased after Jones and saw him throw or bury something in a neighboring yard. A police dog and an officer later found the chisel stuck in the ground. A red bandana, a hat and scarf were found near the tool, police said.

Police also found a backpack that contained drug paraphernalia, methamphetamine, pills, a knife, nunchucks and a journal.

While studying the journal police discovered a page where Jones is suspected of writing of his hate of people because of their sexual orientation, an arrest report states.

I now understand that to hate them all is a requirement. (The victim and boyfriend) and now (names two women), all of you shall have a moment of fate to look forward too, police reported was written in the journal.

This is clearly referring to the victim and his boyfriend, investigators wrote in their report.

Full ARticle: https://eu.news-journalonline.com/story/news/crime/2021/02/09/orlando-man-arrested-attack-gay-man-new-smyrna-beach-crime/4452746001/



What a nutcase

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