Current Events > Did Joel make the right choice at the end of TLOU? spoilers

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slmcknett 02/09/21 7:20:24 PM #51:	vigorm0rtis posted... It was the right choice in the narrative-- it's the choice I think that character would have made. This. It was correct for Joel, and correct for the story. Nothing else matters. --- Watch "Final Fantasy XV Abridged" and "Kingdom Hearts Abridged" right here! https://www.youtube.com/user/mcknett3 <cite>slmcknett posted [p:950466245] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>vigorm0rtis posted... </cite> <quote>It was the right choice in the narrative-- it's the choice I think that character would have made.</quote>This. It was correct for Joel, and correct for the story. Nothing else matters. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 7:25:18 PM #52:	Darmik posted... Nobody treated her like a person. That's the point. There's a reason they rushed her to surgery before she could even wake up. Both Joel and the Fireflies robbed her of her choice. Both end up paying the price for it. I think you're right in that the Fireflies would have murdered her regardless but we know Ellie would have agreed, so that point Is moot I also don't think they "rushed her into surgery quick before she can say no" they did it ASAP because they want your vaccine . They wouldn't have cared what Ellie said Who even knows In 3weeks time if they would still have the facility? Time is of the essence Darmik posted... Zombies don't use golf clubs. Even then if murdered everyone and got away with it how would Abby and the gang handle that? They struggled enough with what they did as is. Pretending they were doing the right thing and pursued justice is why they were all on board. They all would have gotten over it except Owen who would fuck off on boss boat like the deadbeat dad he is. Manny would have thrown a damn party Also if the plot continued to play the same but Ellie was murdered ironically Abby would also end up dead. Her act of mercy towards Ellie ends up saving her in the long term. Only because of actions set into effect by Ellie and Tommy and Jesse and their pregnant friend If Ellie and Tommy were nothing but brain matter on Manny's shoe, Abby would never need saving You need to reverse my Inquisitor gauntlet before you try this logic Mr Lister sir! --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950466436] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>Nobody treated her like a person. That's the point. There's a reason they rushed her to surgery before she could even wake up. Both Joel and the Fireflies robbed her of her choice. Both end up paying the price for it.</quote>I think you're right in that the Fireflies would have murdered her regardless but we know Ellie would have agreed, so that point Is moot I also don't think they "rushed her into surgery quick before she can say no" they did it ASAP because they want your vaccine . They wouldn't have cared what Ellie said Who even knows In 3weeks time if they would still have the facility? Time is of the essence Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>Zombies don't use golf clubs. Even then if murdered everyone and got away with it how would Abby and the gang handle that? They struggled enough with what they did as is. Pretending they were doing the right thing and pursued justice is why they were all on board.</quote> They all would have gotten over it except Owen who would fuck off on boss boat like the deadbeat dad he is. Manny would have thrown a damn party <quote> Also if the plot continued to play the same but Ellie was murdered ironically Abby would also end up dead. Her act of mercy towards Ellie ends up saving her in the long term.</quote> Only because of actions set into effect by Ellie and Tommy and Jesse and their pregnant friend If Ellie and Tommy were nothing but brain matter on Manny's shoe, Abby would never need saving You need to reverse my Inquisitor gauntlet before you try this logic Mr Lister sir! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 7:30:26 PM #53:	Darmik posted... He was robbed of the chance of having that conversation with Ellie. Any father who loves their daughter would do anything to save their daughter from death. From his perspective she had no choice. He wasn't wrong. This is bullshit He is wrong he did have the conversation, he knew Ellie was prepared to die for this, that's why he lied to her face after the fact This is what I mean about lying about the product If Ellie had woken up in the facility, Joel would still have dragged her out of it for his own selfishness Also no , there are lots of things a loving father wouldn't do. Such as mass murder and lying to their kids. That's what a psychopath on an ego trip does , not a loving father When a daughter gets put on a waiting list for an organ transplant her dad doesn't run to the park, kill the nearest people and hand over their organs That's what B movie horror villains do Guess what Joel is? A B movie horror villain That's his arc --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950466635] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>He was robbed of the chance of having that conversation with Ellie. Any father who loves their daughter would do anything to save their daughter from death. From his perspective she had no choice. He wasn't wrong.</quote>This is bullshit He is wrong he did have the conversation, he knew Ellie was prepared to die for this, that's why he lied to her face after the fact This is what I mean about lying about the product If Ellie had woken up in the facility, Joel would still have dragged her out of it for his own selfishness Also no , there are lots of things a loving father wouldn't do. Such as mass murder and lying to their kids. That's what a psychopath on an ego trip does , not a loving father When a daughter gets put on a waiting list for an organ transplant her dad doesn't run to the park, kill the nearest people and hand over their organs That's what B movie horror villains do Guess what Joel is? A B movie horror villain That's his arc </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 7:30:43 PM #54:	UnfairRepresent posted... I think you're right in that the Fireflies would have murdered her regardless but we know Ellie would have agreed, so that point Is moot We know that she would do it but and no the point is not moot. The Fireflies never once talked about it with her or Joel and never gave her a choice. They did not have consent. UnfairRepresent posted... I also don't think they "rushed her into surgery quick before she can say no" they did it ASAP because they want your vaccine . They wouldn't have cared what Ellie said Who even knows In 3weeks time if they would still have the facility? Time is of the essence Yes they thought they were doing the right thing from their perspective. But due to the way they handled it they crossed a grieving father and paid the price. That's the point. Both sides believed they were doing the right thing. The one person who could have solved the dispute never had a chance to have her own say. UnfairRepresent posted... Only because of actions set into effect by Ellie and Tommy and Jesse and their pregnant friend Where Abby and Lev end up was always their goal. That had nothing to do with Ellie and Tommy. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950466650] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>I think you're right in that the Fireflies would have murdered her regardless but we know Ellie would have agreed, so that point Is moot</quote> We know that she would do it but and no the point is not moot. The Fireflies never once talked about it with her or Joel and never gave her a choice. They did not have consent. UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>I also don't think they "rushed her into surgery quick before she can say no" they did it ASAP because they want your vaccine . They wouldn't have cared what Ellie said Who even knows In 3weeks time if they would still have the facility? Time is of the essence</quote> Yes they thought they were doing the right thing from their perspective. But due to the way they handled it they crossed a grieving father and paid the price. That's the point. Both sides believed they were doing the right thing. The one person who could have solved the dispute never had a chance to have her own say. UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>Only because of actions set into effect by Ellie and Tommy and Jesse and their pregnant friend</quote> Where Abby and Lev end up was always their goal. That had nothing to do with Ellie and Tommy. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Proto_Spark 02/09/21 7:32:21 PM #55:	Garioshi posted... https://youtu.be/ma4DJbvO84I?t=11200 Timestamped, so you don't have to watch the entire video. This is a great video. TLOU is really heavy handed about how ** the Fireflies were at their jobs that makes it really hard to disagree with Joel. Joel still made an awful, sympathetic, and selfish decision, but also kind of the obvious one. The thing that makes everything so much worse is that Ellie sees right through the BS Joel gives her so she never gets the real story ~~presumably until well after Joel's death (IDK I haven't finished TLOU2 yet)~~ <cite>Proto_Spark posted [p:950466705] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Garioshi posted... </cite> <quote>https://youtu.be/ma4DJbvO84I?t=11200 Timestamped, so you don't have to watch the entire video.</quote> This is a great video. TLOU is really heavy handed about how ** the Fireflies were at their jobs that makes it really hard to disagree with Joel. Joel still made an awful, sympathetic, and selfish decision, but also kind of the obvious one. The thing that makes everything so much worse is that Ellie sees right through the BS Joel gives her so she never gets the real story presumably until well after Joel's death (IDK I haven't finished TLOU2 yet) </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Zikten 02/09/21 7:36:17 PM #56:	I havent played 2 but the fact it exists and is set years later tells me that humanity was not doomed. But even before 2 got announced I have been saying Joel did nothing wrong. Fuck the fireflies <cite>Zikten posted [p:950466829] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>I havent played 2 but the fact it exists and is set years later tells me that humanity was not doomed. But even before 2 got announced I have been saying Joel did nothing wrong. Fuck the fireflies</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 7:37:47 PM #57:	UnfairRepresent posted... When a daughter gets put on a waiting list for an organ transplant her dad doesn't run to the park, kill the nearest people and hand over their organs If that hospital abducted her while she was still alive for her organs to give to someone else I definitely think a father would kill people to save her life. That's literally what happened. They wouldn't just sit back and say "Welp she agreed to give up her organs in conversation. I'll just let it go." --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950466888] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>When a daughter gets put on a waiting list for an organ transplant her dad doesn't run to the park, kill the nearest people and hand over their organs</quote> If that hospital abducted her while she was still alive for her organs to give to someone else I definitely think a father would kill people to save her life. That's literally what happened. They wouldn't just sit back and say "Welp she agreed to give up her organs in conversation. I'll just let it go." </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 7:57:44 PM #58:	Darmik posted... We know that she would do it but and no the point is not moot. The Fireflies never once talked about it with her or Joel and never gave her a choice. They did not have consent. Actually they did. But they didn't care about it. Neither did Joel. Darmik posted... Yes they thought they were doing the right thing from their perspective. But due to the way they handled it they crossed a grieving father and paid the price. That's the point. Both sides believed they were doing the right thing. The one person who could have solved the dispute never had a chance to have her own say. Joel absolutely did not believe he was doing the right thing. That's why he lied and murdered people. Joel knew he was being selfish and the Fireflies and Ellie were being selfless. But he didn't give a fuck about anyone who wasn't him. Ellie already said she was willing to die for the cure and Joel flat out lied to her about what he did when he pulled her away from the facility. Your "Ohh if only they could have asked Ellie, Joel wouldn't have killed everyone!" is not only silly, but it flat out destroys the character arc and finale of the plot. Darmik posted... Where Abby and Lev end up was always their goal. That had nothing to do with Ellie and Tommy. That's a half -truth. The events that then proceeded where due to Ellie, Tommy and their pets constantly attacking and killing them. Who knows what might have happened in a different time where Manny and Owen.... I forget their names. Other pregnant lady and dog and black lady. What might have happened if Manny was there in the confrontation with Isaac? or if Owen was on the boat at the end when he abandons his family. It's a huge assumption to assume her and Lev would end up without Owen and in the same bandit ambush. This is the butterfly effect. Proto_Spark posted... This is a great video. TLOU is really heavy handed about how ** the Fireflies were at their jobs that makes it really hard to disagree with Joel. I disagree (note I only watched the video from the timestamp) It's bending over backwards to make dumb excuses for Joel while avoiding the entire plot of the game. It's a Zombie apocolypse, decades into it. What soceities are left are small and unsustainable, large swabs of land are inhabitable. The Fireflies are a terrorist group with minimal resources. The fact they are able to exist and (successfully) research a Zombie vaccine is an incredible testament to their ability. The game never puts any doubt into the story that the vaccine would work and if it did then that would utterly destroy the point of the finale and Joel's character arc. Going "Well the milita's with 40 times the manpower and resources keep pushing them back and one researcher got infected. Therefore they are incompetent" seems to be intentionally ignoring the plot and backdrop of the game. He's treating the Fireflies like they are a Big Pharma in the present day and not a terrorist organization inside literal hell being attacked at all sides by nature itself, a lack of supplies and a far superior enemy militarized force. The Fireflies are clearly demonstrated to be determined and fucking miracle workers. Zikten posted... I havent played 2 but the fact it exists and is set years later tells me that humanity was not doomed. But even before 2 got announced I have been saying Joel did nothing wrong. Fuck the fireflies Yeah 2 kinda dropped on the ball on this and a lot of things. In TLOU1 the idea was that the zombies are getting worse. There are no sustainable supplies. There is no large scale government. What socieities are left are restricting all human rights just to function at the bare minimum standard and more and more and more of the country is becoming impossible to traverse. Then in TLOU2 the zombies are the same, supplies are easily sustainable, little girls can run farms in the open with no danger, there are large successful communities with electricity and decent levels of human rights and small children can tranverse the entire nation without any real difficulty. But I think it's safe to assume this was an oversight to piss poor writing standards. The point of the TLOU1 from a plot perspective is clearly the vaccine is a big big deal. It'd save millions of lives and allow the human race to actually flourish rather than die out. I think that is still true in TLOU2 even though the plot and gameplay utterly fail to demonstrate it. Darmik posted... If that hospital abducted her while she was still alive for her organs to give to someone else I definitely think a father would kill people to save her life. That's literally what happened. They wouldn't just sit back and say "Welp she agreed to give up her organs in conversation. I'll just let it go." No that's not "literally what happened." you're ignoring this is a Zombie apocaylpse, she's willing to go through with it, fought to get to the hospital and she will create a vaccine. What you were arguing is "Well needless murder and lying to chain your daughter to you forever is an act of a loving father" and it is not. It's the act of a sociopath. Doing evil and purely selfish things for himself Joel did not want to be alone again, not have a reason to live again and have the world take away what was his again. After decades of loneliness he finally had SOMETHING that gave him reason to live and he would not accept it going away That's not fatherly love. That's bitterness. That's anger and resentment. That's fear and egotism. That's not treating Ellie as a person. Joel is a bad man. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950467584] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted... </cite> <quote> We know that she would do it but and no the point is not moot. The Fireflies never once talked about it with her or Joel and never gave her a choice. They did not have consent.</quote>Actually they did. But they didn't care about it. Neither did Joel. Darmik posted... </cite> <quote> Yes they thought they were doing the right thing from their perspective. But due to the way they handled it they crossed a grieving father and paid the price. That's the point. Both sides believed they were doing the right thing. The one person who could have solved the dispute never had a chance to have her own say.</quote>Joel absolutely did not believe he was doing the right thing. That's why he lied and murdered people. Joel knew he was being selfish and the Fireflies and Ellie were being selfless. But he didn't give a fuck about anyone who wasn't him. Ellie already said she was willing to die for the cure and Joel flat out lied to her about what he did when he pulled her away from the facility. Your "Ohh if only they could have asked Ellie, Joel wouldn't have killed everyone!" is not only silly, but it flat out destroys the character arc and finale of the plot. Darmik posted... </cite> <quote> Where Abby and Lev end up was always their goal. That had nothing to do with Ellie and Tommy.</quote> That's a half -truth. The events that then proceeded where due to Ellie, Tommy and their pets constantly attacking and killing them. Who knows what might have happened in a different time where Manny and Owen.... I forget their names. Other pregnant lady and dog and black lady. What might have happened if Manny was there in the confrontation with Isaac? or if Owen was on the boat at the end when he abandons his family. It's a huge assumption to assume her and Lev would end up without Owen and in the same bandit ambush. This is the butterfly effect. Proto_Spark posted... </cite> <quote> This is a great video. TLOU is really heavy handed about how ** the Fireflies were at their jobs that makes it really hard to disagree with Joel.</quote>I disagree (note I only watched the video from the timestamp) It's bending over backwards to make dumb excuses for Joel while avoiding the entire plot of the game. It's a Zombie apocolypse, decades into it. What soceities are left are small and unsustainable, large swabs of land are inhabitable. The Fireflies are a terrorist group with minimal resources. The fact they are able to exist and (successfully) research a Zombie vaccine is an incredible testament to their ability. The game never puts any doubt into the story that the vaccine would work and if it did then that would utterly destroy the point of the finale and Joel's character arc. Going "Well the milita's with 40 times the manpower and resources keep pushing them back and one researcher got infected. Therefore they are incompetent" seems to be intentionally ignoring the plot and backdrop of the game. He's treating the Fireflies like they are a Big Pharma in the present day and not a terrorist organization inside literal hell being attacked at all sides by nature itself, a lack of supplies and a far superior enemy militarized force. The Fireflies are clearly demonstrated to be determined and fucking miracle workers. Zikten posted... </cite> <quote>I havent played 2 but the fact it exists and is set years later tells me that humanity was not doomed. But even before 2 got announced I have been saying Joel did nothing wrong. Fuck the fireflies</quote> Yeah 2 kinda dropped on the ball on this and a lot of things. In TLOU1 the idea was that the zombies are getting worse. There are no sustainable supplies. There is no large scale government. What socieities are left are restricting all human rights just to function at the bare minimum standard and more and more and more of the country is becoming impossible to traverse. Then in TLOU2 the zombies are the same, supplies are easily sustainable, little girls can run farms in the open with no danger, there are large successful communities with electricity and decent levels of human rights and small children can tranverse the entire nation without any real difficulty. But I think it's safe to assume this was an oversight to piss poor writing standards. The point of the TLOU1 from a plot perspective is clearly the vaccine is a big big deal. It'd save millions of lives and allow the human race to actually flourish rather than die out. I think that is still true in TLOU2 even though the plot and gameplay utterly fail to demonstrate it. Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>If that hospital abducted her while she was still alive for her organs to give to someone else I definitely think a father would kill people to save her life. That's literally what happened. They wouldn't just sit back and say "Welp she agreed to give up her organs in conversation. I'll just let it go."</quote> No that's not "literally what happened." you're ignoring this is a Zombie apocaylpse, she's willing to go through with it, fought to get to the hospital and she will create a vaccine. What you were arguing is "Well needless murder and lying to chain your daughter to you forever is an act of a loving father" and it is not. It's the act of a sociopath. Doing evil and purely selfish things for himself Joel did not want to be alone again, not have a reason to live again and have the world take away what was his again. After decades of loneliness he finally had SOMETHING that gave him reason to live and he would not accept it going away That's not fatherly love. That's bitterness. That's anger and resentment. That's fear and egotism. That's not treating Ellie as a person. Joel is a bad man. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Zikten 02/09/21 8:03:00 PM #59:	The fireflies were also selfish. The only person that could be selfless in that situation is Ellie. Again. Fuck the fireflies <cite>Zikten posted [p:950467794] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>The fireflies were also selfish. The only person that could be selfless in that situation is Ellie. Again. Fuck the fireflies</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 8:05:10 PM #60:	- Joel lied to Ellie because he didn't want their relationship to change. He admitted what he did to Tommy. It had nothing to do with him thinking it was bad. He wouldn't have done it any differently - When did Ellie give her consent to the fireflies? If my daughter said "I'd give my life to save others" in a conversation that doesn't mean an external group takes that as consent when in that situation. Not letting Ellie wake up and be aware of any sort of sacrifice is not selfless. The only person that could talk down Joel was Ellie. They were never given the chance to have that sort of closure. Nobody treated Ellie fairly. The situation itself is inherently unfair and it's handled poorly. UnfairRepresent posted... It's the act of a sociopath. Doing evil and purely selfish things for himself He did it because he didn't want to lose Ellie. How many fathers would give up their kids lives to cure COVID? Pretty easy to judge and call if evil if you aren't in that situation. This is a pretty basic moral dilemma to understand both sides for dude --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950467857] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>- Joel lied to Ellie because he didn't want their relationship to change. He admitted what he did to Tommy. It had nothing to do with him thinking it was bad. He wouldn't have done it any differently - When did Ellie give her consent to the fireflies? If my daughter said "I'd give my life to save others" in a conversation that doesn't mean an external group takes that as consent when in that situation. Not letting Ellie wake up and be aware of any sort of sacrifice is not selfless. The only person that could talk down Joel was Ellie. They were never given the chance to have that sort of closure. Nobody treated Ellie fairly. The situation itself is inherently unfair and it's handled poorly. UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>It's the act of a sociopath. Doing evil and purely selfish things for himself</quote> He did it because he didn't want to lose Ellie. How many fathers would give up their kids lives to cure COVID? Pretty easy to judge and call if evil if you aren't in that situation. This is a pretty basic moral dilemma to understand both sides for dude </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 8:09:05 PM #61:	Zikten posted... The fireflies were also selfish. The only person that could be selfless in that situation is Ellie. Again. Fuck the fireflies I don't agree. While It's true that the fireflies are more than willing to kill to achieve their goals. They are the only faction in the plot whose actions are altruistic They are putting their lives and families on the line, dedicating what limited resources they have and years of effort and time into finding a way for humanity to thrive rather than die out. Almost every member of the Fireflies could have a happier or easier life by not being in it. In a world of people looking out for themselves, full of bandits, ruthless dying communities and desperate starving homeless families. They are the only ones who trying to improve the lives of others. That's selfless. There's more going on in the universe of TLOU2 than Ellie's ultimate surgery in the finale. Do you think Tommy wouldn't murder people to save his shitty town? Fireflies are doing the same thing just on a global scale rather than for themselves. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950467991] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Zikten posted... </cite> <quote>The fireflies were also selfish. The only person that could be selfless in that situation is Ellie. Again. Fuck the fireflies</quote>I don't agree. While It's true that the fireflies are more than willing to kill to achieve their goals. They are the only faction in the plot whose actions are altruistic They are putting their lives and families on the line, dedicating what limited resources they have and years of effort and time into finding a way for humanity to thrive rather than die out. Almost every member of the Fireflies could have a happier or easier life by not being in it. In a world of people looking out for themselves, full of bandits, ruthless dying communities and desperate starving homeless families. They are the only ones who trying to improve the lives of others. That's selfless. There's more going on in the universe of TLOU2 than Ellie's ultimate surgery in the finale. Do you think Tommy wouldn't murder people to save his shitty town? Fireflies are doing the same thing just on a global scale rather than for themselves. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 8:15:07 PM #62:	The first time you see Fireflies in TLOU1 is them car bombing a military checkpoint. Hardly some selfless altruistic group. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950468188] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>The first time you see Fireflies in TLOU1 is them car bombing a military checkpoint. Hardly some selfless altruistic group. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 8:15:35 PM #63:	Darmik posted... - Joel lied to Ellie because he didn't want their relationship to change. Yes because he is selfish egotist who knew Ellie would have gone along with the procedure. He admitted what he did to Tommy. It had nothing to do with him thinking it was bad. He wouldn't have done it any differently What's your point here? - When did Ellie give her consent to the fireflies? She didn't. But she flat out said she would die for the cure. Joel knew this, Marlene knew this, which is why he lied. If my daughter said "I'd give my life to save others" in a conversation that doesn't mean an external group takes that as consent when in that situation. Not letting Ellie wake up and be aware of any sort of sacrifice is not selfless. The only person that could talk down Joel was Ellie. They were never given the chance to have that sort of closure. Nobody treated Ellie fairly. The situation itself is inherently unfair and it's handled poorly. He did it because he didn't want to lose Ellie. How many fathers would give up their kids lives to cure COVID? This is a false equivlancy. Covid and being 20 years into a Zombie apocalypse are not comparable. Even the Black Death isn't comparable. A more apt question would be if a comet was going to hit the Earth and your daughter was an astronaunt in space who could stop it, but she's literally the only one who could. NASA have remote control over her ship and will intercept the comet. You know she would consent to this. So you burst into NASA, murder everyone, force the ship to land back on Earth, lie to your daughter that you did this, say the comet is going to be stopped anyway and doom the entire planet. That's not loving father, that's evil selfishness. Pretty easy to judge and call if evil if you aren't in that situation. Yup Pretty easy to judge and call it evil in the situation too. Joel even knows it was wrong. Hence why he lied. This is a pretty basic moral dilemma to understand both sides for dude I didn't say I didn't understand it. just that Joel's actions are evil and selfish. Understanding why people do selfish and evil acts doesn't stop them from being selfish and evil dude. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950468205] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>- Joel lied to Ellie because he didn't want their relationship to change.</quote> Yes because he is selfish egotist who knew Ellie would have gone along with the procedure. <quote> He admitted what he did to Tommy. It had nothing to do with him thinking it was bad. He wouldn't have done it any differently</quote> What's your point here? <quote> - When did Ellie give her consent to the fireflies?</quote> She didn't. But she flat out said she would die for the cure. Joel knew this, Marlene knew this, which is why he lied. <quote> If my daughter said "I'd give my life to save others" in a conversation that doesn't mean an external group takes that as consent when in that situation. Not letting Ellie wake up and be aware of any sort of sacrifice is not selfless. The only person that could talk down Joel was Ellie. They were never given the chance to have that sort of closure. Nobody treated Ellie fairly. The situation itself is inherently unfair and it's handled poorly. He did it because he didn't want to lose Ellie. How many fathers would give up their kids lives to cure COVID? </quote> This is a false equivlancy. Covid and being 20 years into a Zombie apocalypse are not comparable. Even the Black Death isn't comparable. A more apt question would be if a comet was going to hit the Earth and your daughter was an astronaunt in space who could stop it, but she's literally the only one who could. NASA have remote control over her ship and will intercept the comet. You know she would consent to this. So you burst into NASA, murder everyone, force the ship to land back on Earth, lie to your daughter that you did this, say the comet is going to be stopped anyway and doom the entire planet. That's not loving father, that's evil selfishness. <quote> Pretty easy to judge and call if evil if you aren't in that situation. </quote>Yup Pretty easy to judge and call it evil in the situation too. Joel even knows it was wrong. Hence why he lied. <quote> This is a pretty basic moral dilemma to understand both sides for dude</quote> I didn't say I didn't understand it. just that Joel's actions are evil and selfish. Understanding why people do selfish and evil acts doesn't stop them from being selfish and evil dude. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 8:18:00 PM #64:	Darmik posted... The first time you see Fireflies in TLOU1 is them car bombing a military checkpoint. Hardly some selfless altruistic group. https://youtu.be/yiqnN6EU3Q0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StFB2g0urhA Guess what Luke Skywalker was? --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950468300] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>The first time you see Fireflies in TLOU1 is them car bombing a military checkpoint. Hardly some selfless altruistic group.</quote>https://youtu.be/yiqnN6EU3Q0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StFB2g0urhA Guess what Luke Skywalker was? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Proto_Spark 02/09/21 8:18:31 PM #65:	UnfairRepresent posted... I disagree (note I only watched the video from the timestamp) It's bending over backwards to make dumb excuses for Joel while avoiding the entire plot of the game. It's a Zombie apocolypse, decades into it. What soceities are left are small and unsustainable, large swabs of land are inhabitable. The Fireflies are a terrorist group with minimal resources. The fact they are able to exist and (successfully) research a Zombie vaccine is an incredible testament to their ability. The game never puts any doubt into the story that the vaccine would work and if it did then that would utterly destroy the point of the finale and Joel's character arc. Going "Well the milita's with 40 times the manpower and resources keep pushing them back and one researcher got infected. Therefore they are incompetent" seems to be intentionally ignoring the plot and backdrop of the game. He's treating the Fireflies like they are a Big Pharma in the present day and not a terrorist organization inside literal hell being attacked at all sides by nature itself, a lack of supplies and a far superior enemy militarized force. The Fireflies are clearly demonstrated to be determined and f**ing miracle workers. But it isn't just the militia is taking them down, but its stuff like the researcher is stupid enough to let the monkey out so it can bite him and destroy the entire lab. It wasn't an accident, it was negligence. The fact that the doctors are immediately jumping to vivisecting Ellie instead of running more tests to try to save what they consider the one thing that matters in the world in a non-lethal way. Theres also nothing to say that they actually have any research into a vaccine. Just that with Ellie they maybe could. There's nothing concrete that there's even hope for a vaccine, just that the fireflies may have deluded themselves into this last hope, and Ellie may have bought into it so everything that's happened can be for something.* Neither of these say that a vaccine is actually possible. UnfairRepresent posted... In TLOU1 the idea was that the zombies are getting worse. There are no sustainable supplies. There is no large scale government. What socieities are left are restricting all human rights just to function at the bare minimum standard and more and more and more of the country is becoming impossible to traverse. The plot of the game seems to suggest that the future of the world isn't with a vaccine like the Fireflies are so desperate to get, but settlements like Tommy's dam community and that one in the sewers you go through. Because the apocalypse has effectively happened already. outside of very specific circumstances, the zombies aren't the biggest threat anymore, contrasting with the difficulties of actually rebuilding against other people. I thought the point of TLOU1 wasn't the zombies are getting worse, its just we haven't made moves to get better yet. Quarantine zones are failing because they are effectively little militia states who can't handle anything because there isn't a centralized system, meaning everything just had to fend for themselves (which is directly why there are groups like the fireflies). Because 90% of the zombie encounters in TLOU1 are more like "wait, hold up, lets take this slow" because zombies aren't that big of a threat. they are a threat, but they are also basic and something you can handle. The bigger problem is other people. <cite>Proto_Spark posted [p:950468310] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>I disagree (note I only watched the video from the timestamp) It's bending over backwards to make dumb excuses for Joel while avoiding the entire plot of the game. It's a Zombie apocolypse, decades into it. What soceities are left are small and unsustainable, large swabs of land are inhabitable. The Fireflies are a terrorist group with minimal resources. The fact they are able to exist and (successfully) research a Zombie vaccine is an incredible testament to their ability. The game never puts any doubt into the story that the vaccine would work and if it did then that would utterly destroy the point of the finale and Joel's character arc. Going "Well the milita's with 40 times the manpower and resources keep pushing them back and one researcher got infected. Therefore they are incompetent" seems to be intentionally ignoring the plot and backdrop of the game. He's treating the Fireflies like they are a Big Pharma in the present day and not a terrorist organization inside literal hell being attacked at all sides by nature itself, a lack of supplies and a far superior enemy militarized force. The Fireflies are clearly demonstrated to be determined and f***ing miracle workers.</quote> But it isn't just the militia is taking them down, but its stuff like the researcher is stupid enough to let the monkey out so it can bite him and destroy the entire lab. It wasn't an accident, it was negligence. The fact that the doctors are immediately jumping to vivisecting Ellie instead of running more tests to try to save what they consider the one thing that matters in the world in a non-lethal way. Theres also nothing to say that they actually have any research into a vaccine. Just that with Ellie they maybe could. There's nothing concrete that there's even hope for a vaccine, just that the fireflies may have deluded themselves into this last hope, and Ellie may have bought into it so everything that's happened can be for something. Neither of these say that a vaccine is actually possible. UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>In TLOU1 the idea was that the zombies are getting worse. There are no sustainable supplies. There is no large scale government. What socieities are left are restricting all human rights just to function at the bare minimum standard and more and more and more of the country is becoming impossible to traverse.</quote> The plot of the game seems to suggest that the future of the world isn't with a vaccine like the Fireflies are so desperate to get, but settlements like Tommy's dam community and that one in the sewers you go through. Because the apocalypse has effectively happened already. outside of very specific circumstances, the zombies aren't the biggest threat anymore, contrasting with the difficulties of actually rebuilding against other people. I thought the point of TLOU1 wasn't the zombies are getting worse, its just we haven't made moves to get better yet. Quarantine zones are failing because they are effectively little militia states who can't handle anything because there isn't a centralized system, meaning everything just had to fend for themselves (which is directly why there are groups like the fireflies). Because 90% of the zombie encounters in TLOU1 are more like "wait, hold up, lets take this slow" because zombies aren't that big of a threat. they are a threat, but they are also basic and something you can handle. The bigger problem is other people. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 8:20:02 PM #66:	Fun fact about that Star Trek clip: It aired during "The Troubles" a string of IRA bombings and terrorist attacks and censored it in the UK because of implication that the terrorism would result in Ireland unification. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950468356] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Fun fact about that Star Trek clip: It aired during "The Troubles" a string of IRA bombings and terrorist attacks and censored it in the UK because of implication that the terrorism would result in Ireland unification. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 8:22:09 PM #67:	UnfairRepresent posted... She didn't. But she flat out said she would die for the cure. Joel knew this, Marlene knew this, which is why he lied. Ellie absolutely did not know she was supposed to die when she got to the Fireflies. They never once told her. They lied to her just as much as Joel did. It's easy to say you would do the right thing in that scenario but at the end of the day Ellie has not had the chance or choice to step up and do that because of the people around her. UnfairRepresent posted... This is a false equivlancy. Covid and being 20 years into a Zombie apocalypse are not comparable. Even the Black Death isn't comparable. It's the moral dilemma of sacrificing one life to save many. You can try and spin it to other bizarre scenarios as much as you like. There wasn't even a guarantee that it would work or would change anything in TLOU. Would you sacrifice your loved one to save lives? That's the moral dilemma. Most people are selfish enough to default to no. Which is understandable. It does not make someone evil to do anything to save their family. UnfairRepresent posted... Understanding why people do selfish and evil acts doesn't stop them from being selfish and evil dude. People will do selfish acts to save loved ones. Again it's a pretty basic moral dilemma that most parents empathize with. It doesn't make it different that it's a zombie apocalypse or that Joel lied to maintain their relationship. The girl is only 14 and it's a huge thing to ask of anyone. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950468418] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>She didn't. But she flat out said she would die for the cure. Joel knew this, Marlene knew this, which is why he lied.</quote> Ellie absolutely did not know she was supposed to die when she got to the Fireflies. They never once told her. They lied to her just as much as Joel did. It's easy to say you would do the right thing in that scenario but at the end of the day Ellie has not had the chance or choice to step up and do that because of the people around her. UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>This is a false equivlancy. Covid and being 20 years into a Zombie apocalypse are not comparable. Even the Black Death isn't comparable.</quote> It's the moral dilemma of sacrificing one life to save many. You can try and spin it to other bizarre scenarios as much as you like. There wasn't even a guarantee that it would work or would change anything in TLOU. Would you sacrifice your loved one to save lives? That's the moral dilemma. Most people are selfish enough to default to no. Which is understandable. It does not make someone evil to do anything to save their family. UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>Understanding why people do selfish and evil acts doesn't stop them from being selfish and evil dude.</quote> People will do selfish acts to save loved ones. Again it's a pretty basic moral dilemma that most parents empathize with. It doesn't make it different that it's a zombie apocalypse or that Joel lied to maintain their relationship. The girl is only 14 and it's a huge thing to ask of anyone. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 8:30:35 PM #68:	Proto_Spark posted... But it isn't just the militia is taking them down, but its stuff like the researcher is stupid enough to let the monkey out so it can bite him and destroy the entire lab. It wasn't an accident, it was negligence. The fact that the doctors are immediately jumping to vivisecting Ellie instead of running more tests to try to save what they consider the one thing that matters in the world in a non-lethal way. Theres also nothing to say that they actually have any research into a vaccine. Just that with Ellie they maybe could. There's nothing concrete that there's even hope for a vaccine, just that the fireflies may have deluded themselves into this last hope, and Ellie may have bought into it so everything that's happened can be for something. Neither of these say that a vaccine is actually possible. I disagree with this. On a story level the "WHY THEY RUSH ELLIE INTO VACCINE!?" question is because time is of the essence. They need the vaccine ASAP and any time wasted is time where they could be attacked by Zombies, raiders, militias. They could lose control of the facilitity , the surgeons could die. They are confident they have the vaccine and there's nothing in the story to suggest they don't. "A scientist got bit by a zombie" doesn't demonstrate that the vaccine doesn't exist, it's just more fuel to the fire of how determined such a resource limited group is. From a meta level. If the Fireflies are just village idiots with no idea what they are doing and there is no vaccine, the story and character arc of Joel falls apart. Why does he lie to Ellie? Why the finale dramatic at all? And not just another outpost of morons like the bandits. Why is it dramatic to brutally execute surgeons and Marlene if they are country bumpkins who don't know what they are doing? It's like going "Well the Death Star would have exploded anyway even if it wasn't attacked." I don't think that's true on a story level, nothing demonstrates it and even if it is true, on a meta level that's just stupid and ruins the plot. Proto_Spark posted... The plot of the game seems to suggest that the future of the world isn't with a vaccine like the Fireflies are so desperate to get, but settlements like Tommy's dam community and that one in the sewers you go through. Because the apocalypse has effectively happened already. outside of very specific circumstances, the zombies aren't the biggest threat anymore, contrasting with the difficulties of actually rebuilding against other people. Not really? Tommy's settlement is already under attack by bandits, more and more of the country is impossible to travel and the Zombie are getting worse. As supplies get worse, bandits get more desperate, ALL zombies become the hyper dangerous fat ones. Communities like Tommy's are doomed. I thought the point of TLOU1 wasn't the zombies are getting worse, The zombies are getting worse. The Superzombies you meet are storywise just people who have been Zombies for longer. The longer you are a zombie, the tougher you become. If Isolationist communtiies like Tommy are all that's left with no growth, within decades there will be super zombies everywhere and no room to grow. Because 90% of the zombie encounters in TLOU1 are more like "wait, hold up, lets take this slow" because zombies aren't that big of a threat. they are a threat, but they are also basic and something you can handle. The bigger problem is other people. Again, not really? You need a gasmask just to survive the spores and travel is crazy dangerous. Zombies are everywhere, what few paths are Zombie safe arefull of bandits. Resources are extremely limited and getting worse. Outposts are struggling. Sure people infighting and being evil and selfish like Joel are "The bigger problem" in a story sense, the reason why people are acting like that is because of Zombies, which is getting worse. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950468688] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Proto_Spark posted... </cite> <quote> But it isn't just the militia is taking them down, but its stuff like the researcher is stupid enough to let the monkey out so it can bite him and destroy the entire lab. It wasn't an accident, it was negligence. The fact that the doctors are immediately jumping to vivisecting Ellie instead of running more tests to try to save what they consider the one thing that matters in the world in a non-lethal way. Theres also nothing to say that they actually have any research into a vaccine. Just that with Ellie they maybe could. There's nothing concrete that there's even hope for a vaccine, just that the fireflies may have deluded themselves into this last hope, and Ellie may have bought into it so everything that's happened can be for something. Neither of these say that a vaccine is actually possible.</quote>I disagree with this. On a story level the "WHY THEY RUSH ELLIE INTO VACCINE!?" question is because time is of the essence. They need the vaccine ASAP and any time wasted is time where they could be attacked by Zombies, raiders, militias. They could lose control of the facilitity , the surgeons could die. They are confident they have the vaccine and there's nothing in the story to suggest they don't. "A scientist got bit by a zombie" doesn't demonstrate that the vaccine doesn't exist, it's just more fuel to the fire of how determined such a resource limited group is. From a meta level. If the Fireflies are just village idiots with no idea what they are doing and there is no vaccine, the story and character arc of Joel falls apart. Why does he lie to Ellie? Why the finale dramatic at all? And not just another outpost of morons like the bandits. Why is it dramatic to brutally execute surgeons and Marlene if they are country bumpkins who don't know what they are doing? It's like going "Well the Death Star would have exploded anyway even if it wasn't attacked." I don't think that's true on a story level, nothing demonstrates it and even if it is true, on a meta level that's just stupid and ruins the plot. Proto_Spark posted... </cite> <quote> The plot of the game seems to suggest that the future of the world isn't with a vaccine like the Fireflies are so desperate to get, but settlements like Tommy's dam community and that one in the sewers you go through. Because the apocalypse has effectively happened already. outside of very specific circumstances, the zombies aren't the biggest threat anymore, contrasting with the difficulties of actually rebuilding against other people.</quote> Not really? Tommy's settlement is already under attack by bandits, more and more of the country is impossible to travel and the Zombie are getting worse. As supplies get worse, bandits get more desperate, ALL zombies become the hyper dangerous fat ones. Communities like Tommy's are doomed. <quote> I thought the point of TLOU1 wasn't the zombies are getting worse,</quote> The zombies are getting worse. The Superzombies you meet are storywise just people who have been Zombies for longer. The longer you are a zombie, the tougher you become. If Isolationist communtiies like Tommy are all that's left with no growth, within decades there will be super zombies everywhere and no room to grow. <quote> Because 90% of the zombie encounters in TLOU1 are more like "wait, hold up, lets take this slow" because zombies aren't that big of a threat. they are a threat, but they are also basic and something you can handle. The bigger problem is other people.</quote> Again, not really? You need a gasmask just to survive the spores and travel is crazy dangerous. Zombies are everywhere, what few paths are Zombie safe arefull of bandits. Resources are extremely limited and getting worse. Outposts are struggling. Sure people infighting and being evil and selfish like Joel are "The bigger problem" in a story sense, the reason why people are acting like that is because of Zombies, which is getting worse. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 8:31:36 PM #69:	Essentially you're saying that murdering a teenage girl to try and find a zombie cure is morally right and selfless. Isn't that a bit scary? --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950468723] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Essentially you're saying that murdering a teenage girl to try and find a zombie cure is morally right and selfless. Isn't that a bit scary? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 8:38:14 PM #70:	Darmik posted... Ellie absolutely did not know she was supposed to die when she got to the Fireflies. They never once told her. They lied to her just as much as Joel did. I'm not sure Marlene even knew until after the fact. But either way, I'm not disagreeing with you. They would have killed Ellie regardless. But what you're intetionally ignoring is: Ellie would have consented They did to create a vaccine. Where as Joel was just evil selfishness/ It's easy to say you would do the right thing in that scenario Yes it is Darmik posted... It's the moral dilemma of sacrificing one life to save many. Kinda? It's a very very specific one. You can try and spin it to other bizarre scenarios as much as you like. There wasn't even a guarantee that it would work or would change anything in TLOU. Sure but from a story perspective it would have. The entire drama and character arcs and plot depend on it. There's no garantee Ellie wouldn't have slipped and drowned if she actually attempted to murder Abby at the end. But it would be a dumb point to argue, Would you sacrifice your loved one to save lives? That's the moral dilemma. Most people are selfish enough to default to no. Which is understandable. It does not make someone evil to do anything to save their family. I don't agree with this at all. It seems to compeltely be missing Joel's entire character arc and ignoring the plot of the game. "It's not evil to save your family!" is such an immensely dishonest retort of the point stated that's silly. That sentence in a vacuum? No. What Joel did however was evil and selfish. Darmik posted... Again it's a pretty basic moral dilemma that most parents empathize with. Just ignoring every point raised and saying "AGain [something dumb]!" doesn't stop you from saying something dumb. It doesn't make it different that it's a zombie apocalypse or that Joel lied to maintain their relationship. Yes it does. As I said earlier, by your logic it's not evil and selfish to murder people to get organs for your family if your daughter needed a transplant. Context does matter. And the fact you're literally ignoring the entire plot and character/actions/context of Joel to defend him to me is a big fat confession that know full well his actions are indefensible. You've literally gone "Well have you heard of the trolly problem?" as your defense of Joel's actions. It's comically absurd. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950468940] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted... </cite> <quote> Ellie absolutely did not know she was supposed to die when she got to the Fireflies. They never once told her. They lied to her just as much as Joel did.</quote> I'm not sure Marlene even knew until after the fact. But either way, I'm not disagreeing with you. They would have killed Ellie regardless. But what you're intetionally ignoring is: Ellie would have consentedThey did to create a vaccine.Where as Joel was just evil selfishness/ <quote> It's easy to say you would do the right thing in that scenario</quote> Yes it is Darmik posted... </cite> <quote> It's the moral dilemma of sacrificing one life to save many.</quote> Kinda? It's a very very specific one. <quote>You can try and spin it to other bizarre scenarios as much as you like. There wasn't even a guarantee that it would work or would change anything in TLOU.</quote> Sure but from a story perspective it would have. The entire drama and character arcs and plot depend on it. There's no garantee Ellie wouldn't have slipped and drowned if she actually attempted to murder Abby at the end. But it would be a dumb point to argue, <quote> Would you sacrifice your loved one to save lives? That's the moral dilemma. Most people are selfish enough to default to no. Which is understandable. It does not make someone evil to do anything to save their family.</quote> I don't agree with this at all. It seems to compeltely be missing Joel's entire character arc and ignoring the plot of the game. "It's not evil to save your family!" is such an immensely dishonest retort of the point stated that's silly. That sentence in a vacuum? No. What Joel did however was evil and selfish. Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>Again it's a pretty basic moral dilemma that most parents empathize with.</quote> Just ignoring every point raised and saying "AGain [something dumb]!" doesn't stop you from saying something dumb. <quote> It doesn't make it different that it's a zombie apocalypse or that Joel lied to maintain their relationship.</quote> Yes it does. As I said earlier, by your logic it's not evil and selfish to murder people to get organs for your family if your daughter needed a transplant. Context does matter. And the fact you're literally ignoring the entire plot and character/actions/context of Joel to defend him to me is a big fat confession that know full well his actions are indefensible. You've literally gone "Well have you heard of the trolly problem?" as your defense of Joel's actions. It's comically absurd. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 8:41:33 PM #71:	Darmik posted... Essentially you're saying that murdering a teenage girl to try and find a zombie cure is morally right and selfless. Isn't that a bit scary? Not really? In this incredibly specific scenario. I think it's morally wrong to shoot midgets with rocket launchers but don't consider killing Salazar morally wrong in the context of Resident Evil 4. You're right in that if you remove literally all the reasons why Joel's actions are evil and selfish then they are no longer evil and selfish But that's like saying "If we ignore the fact OJ killed 2 people, he's innocent of murder right?" what's the point? What are you even saying here? --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950469026] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>Essentially you're saying that murdering a teenage girl to try and find a zombie cure is morally right and selfless. Isn't that a bit scary?</quote>Not really? In this incredibly specific scenario. I think it's morally wrong to shoot midgets with rocket launchers but don't consider killing Salazar morally wrong in the context of Resident Evil 4. You're right in that if you remove literally all the reasons why Joel's actions are evil and selfish then they are no longer evil and selfish But that's like saying "If we ignore the fact OJ killed 2 people, he's innocent of murder right?" what's the point? What are you even saying here? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Proto_Spark 02/09/21 8:41:37 PM #72:	UnfairRepresent posted... They are confident they have the vaccine and there's nothing in the story to suggest they don't. "A scientist got bit by a zombie" doesn't demonstrate that the vaccine doesn't exist, it's just more fuel to the fire of how determined such a resource limited group is. But the scientist didn't get bit by a zombie. He got himself infected by a monkey that he infected because he was too negligent to follow his own procedure. If you want another story reason the fireflies are garbage, after Joel gets Ellie to the base, The Fireflies completely reneg on their deal and treat not murdering the man who brought over the miracle child as a gift. Darmik posted... Ellie absolutely did not know she was supposed to die when she got to the Fireflies. They never once told her. They lied to her just as much as Joel did. It's easy to say you would do the right thing in that scenario but at the end of the day Ellie has not had the chance or choice to step up and do that because of the people around her. This. There's a reason she talks about what to do with Joel after they finish. She definitely didn't know the circumstances of anything going in, and was taken from the cusp of drowning straight into surgery so she couldn't consent to anything even if she wanted to. Not to mention the Fireflies were clearly not interested in her actually consenting either. <cite>Proto_Spark posted [p:950469029] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>They are confident they have the vaccine and there's nothing in the story to suggest they don't. "A scientist got bit by a zombie" doesn't demonstrate that the vaccine doesn't exist, it's just more fuel to the fire of how determined such a resource limited group is.</quote> But the scientist didn't get bit by a zombie. He got himself infected by a monkey that he infected because he was too negligent to follow his own procedure. If you want another story reason the fireflies are garbage, after Joel gets Ellie to the base, The Fireflies completely reneg on their deal and treat not murdering the man who brought over the miracle child as a gift. Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>Ellie absolutely did not know she was supposed to die when she got to the Fireflies. They never once told her. They lied to her just as much as Joel did. It's easy to say you would do the right thing in that scenario but at the end of the day Ellie has not had the chance or choice to step up and do that because of the people around her.</quote> This. There's a reason she talks about what to do with Joel after they finish. She definitely didn't know the circumstances of anything going in, and was taken from the cusp of drowning straight into surgery so she couldn't consent to anything even if she wanted to. Not to mention the Fireflies were clearly not interested in her actually consenting either. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 8:42:29 PM #73:	UnfairRepresent posted... As I said earlier, by your logic it's not evil and selfish to murder people to get organs for your family if your daughter needed a transplant. That's not comparable because those people can't help having those organs. The Fireflies are in control of their actions and are making the decision for both Joel and Ellie. Your comparisons consistently fail at including this. Fireflies were going to kill Ellie without her consent. Saying "well she would have consented" isn't a defense. It's something psychopaths say. If they had the moral high ground she would have consented plain and simple. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950469058] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>As I said earlier, by your logic it's not evil and selfish to murder people to get organs for your family if your daughter needed a transplant.</quote> That's not comparable because those people can't help having those organs. The Fireflies are in control of their actions and are making the decision for both Joel and Ellie. Your comparisons consistently fail at including this. Fireflies were going to kill Ellie without her consent. Saying "well she would have consented" isn't a defense. It's something psychopaths say. If they had the moral high ground she would have consented plain and simple. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 8:46:12 PM #74:	UnfairRepresent posted... Not really? In this incredibly specific scenario. Yes or no in this incredibly specific scenario you think it's morally right to murder a teenage girl to try and find a cure? That's literally what you've been saying in this topic? --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950469169] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>Not really? In this incredibly specific scenario.</quote> Yes or no in this incredibly specific scenario you think it's morally right to murder a teenage girl to try and find a cure? That's literally what you've been saying in this topic? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 8:46:26 PM #75:	Proto_Spark posted... But the scientist didn't get bit by a zombie. He got himself infected by a monkey that was showing no symptoms because he was too negligent to follow his own procedure. Ok? If you want another story reason the fireflies are garbage, after Joel gets Ellie to the base, The Fireflies completely reneg on their deal and treat not murdering the man who brought over the miracle child as a gift. Yeah they're terrorists. And if Marlene had executed Joel then they would have had a vaccine. But she showed mercy and compassion because she's a good person. In response, Joel murdered everyone and lied to Ellie. Proto_Spark posted... This. There's a reason she talks about what to do with Joel after they finish. She definitely didn't know the circumstances of anything going in, and was taken from the cusp of drowning straight into surgery so she couldn't consent to anything even if she wanted to. Not to mention the Fireflies were clearly not interested in her actually consenting either. I agree. The Fireflies didn't give a shit if Ellie consented or not. They wanted their cure. If Ellie had woken up and said no, they would have just knocked her out. But Joel knew and probably Marlene knew Ellie would consent. Hence why Joel lied to her. "The Fireflies did not let Ellie consent!" is not a justification for their actions and Joel never even pretended it was. When he pulled Ellie out of there, he did not say "Well they didn't ask you if you wanted to go ahead with it, so naturally I killed them all." because he knows how fucking stupid that would be. So he lies. Just like you lie to defend him. No one honest can deny Joel's actions are evil. Joel can't even deny it. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950469178] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Proto_Spark posted... </cite> <quote>But the scientist didn't get bit by a zombie. He got himself infected by a monkey that was showing no symptoms because he was too negligent to follow his own procedure. </quote> Ok? <quote>If you want another story reason the fireflies are garbage, after Joel gets Ellie to the base, The Fireflies completely reneg on their deal and treat not murdering the man who brought over the miracle child as a gift.</quote> Yeah they're terrorists. And if Marlene had executed Joel then they would have had a vaccine. But she showed mercy and compassion because she's a good person. In response, Joel murdered everyone and lied to Ellie. Proto_Spark posted... </cite> <quote> This. There's a reason she talks about what to do with Joel after they finish. She definitely didn't know the circumstances of anything going in, and was taken from the cusp of drowning straight into surgery so she couldn't consent to anything even if she wanted to. Not to mention the Fireflies were clearly not interested in her actually consenting either.</quote>I agree. The Fireflies didn't give a shit if Ellie consented or not. They wanted their cure. If Ellie had woken up and said no, they would have just knocked her out. But Joel knew and probably Marlene knew Ellie would consent. Hence why Joel lied to her. "The Fireflies did not let Ellie consent!" is not a justification for their actions and Joel never even pretended it was. When he pulled Ellie out of there, he did not say "Well they didn't ask you if you wanted to go ahead with it, so naturally I killed them all." because he knows how fucking stupid that would be. So he lies. Just like you lie to defend him. No one honest can deny Joel's actions are evil. Joel can't even deny it. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Atralis 02/09/21 8:47:52 PM #76:	pegusus123456 posted... No. All arguments about whether the Fireflies are capable of making a vaccine/cure or what they'd do with it are absolutely irrelevant because none of that factored into Joel's decision. Joel believed they were capable of it. Joel knew Ellie would willingly die for the effort. Joel murdered Marlene - Ellie's adopted mother - solely to stop her from going after them. Joel lied about the situation when Ellie asked about it. Joel saved her because he refused to go through another daughter dying. It's understandable. It's sympathetic. And it's selfish. This... The argument that the solution to the moral dilemma is that there is no moral dilemma because the cure couldn't possibly work has always seemed childish to me. The whole point is for you to think about the fact that Joel is basically massacring the scientists that for all we know are closest to finding a cure and possibly right on the verge of finding one. We know that Ellie would ultimately choose to make the sacrifice if she was given the choice but Joel makes it for her. Joel is fully aware that he is mortal, he has lived a life of immense hardship and suffering and has lived through the end of the world in constant battle killing and seeing friends die all around him, hell he has even had a daughter killed 'for the greater good' before. You can understand why he would make the choice he made even if he thought Ellie could basically be turned into a cure. He doesn't care about 'the world' as much as he cares about the person right beside him. Joel isn't religious, he isn't a humanist, he isn't a ethic philosopher. Why would he care about 'humanity' more than he cares about Ellie at that point? <cite>Atralis posted [p:950469223] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>pegusus123456 posted... </cite> <quote>No. All arguments about whether the Fireflies are capable of making a vaccine/cure or what they'd do with it are absolutely irrelevant because none of that factored into Joel's decision. Joel believed they were capable of it. Joel knew Ellie would willingly die for the effort. Joel murdered Marlene - Ellie's adopted mother - solely to stop her from going after them. Joel lied about the situation when Ellie asked about it. Joel saved her because he refused to go through another daughter dying. It's understandable. It's sympathetic. And it's selfish.</quote> This... The argument that the solution to the moral dilemma is that there is no moral dilemma because the cure couldn't possibly work has always seemed childish to me. The whole point is for you to think about the fact that Joel is basically massacring the scientists that for all we know are closest to finding a cure and possibly right on the verge of finding one. We know that Ellie would ultimately choose to make the sacrifice if she was given the choice but Joel makes it for her. Joel is fully aware that he is mortal, he has lived a life of immense hardship and suffering and has lived through the end of the world in constant battle killing and seeing friends die all around him, hell he has even had a daughter killed 'for the greater good' before. You can understand why he would make the choice he made even if he thought Ellie could basically be turned into a cure. He doesn't care about 'the world' as much as he cares about the person right beside him. Joel isn't religious, he isn't a humanist, he isn't a ethic philosopher. Why would he care about 'humanity' more than he cares about Ellie at that point? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 8:50:53 PM #77:	Darmik posted... That's not comparable because those people can't help having those organs. The Fireflies are in control of their actions and are making the decision for both Joel and Ellie. Ellie can't help being the key to the cure. And they didn't make the decision for Joel. Just Ellie. But the point that you're too cowardly to concede despite knowing you're wrong is "Lying to your daughter and commiting mass murder of innocent people to doom the Earth is the act of a loving father. No Father would ever allow a daughter to die under any circumstances!" is complete nonsense. hence why you keep having to say "nonono, ignore all context, ignore the plot, ignore the scenario. Just in the abstract moral dilemma of the Trolley problem. That's it." to justify it Your comparisons consistently fail at including this. Fireflies were going to kill Ellie without her consent. Saying "well she would have consented" isn't a defense. It's something psychopaths say. If they had the moral high ground she would have consented plain and simple. Well she did consent. But yeah I fully agree that Fireflies wouldn't have cared and didn't care. None of that excuses what Joel did. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950469319] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted... </cite> <quote> That's not comparable because those people can't help having those organs. The Fireflies are in control of their actions and are making the decision for both Joel and Ellie.</quote> Ellie can't help being the key to the cure. And they didn't make the decision for Joel. Just Ellie. But the point that you're too cowardly to concede despite knowing you're wrong is "Lying to your daughter and commiting mass murder of innocent people to doom the Earth is the act of a loving father. No Father would ever allow a daughter to die under any circumstances!" is complete nonsense. hence why you keep having to say "nonono, ignore all context, ignore the plot, ignore the scenario. Just in the abstract moral dilemma of the Trolley problem. That's it." to justify it <quote> Your comparisons consistently fail at including this. Fireflies were going to kill Ellie without her consent. Saying "well she would have consented" isn't a defense. It's something psychopaths say. If they had the moral high ground she would have consented plain and simple.</quote>Well she did consent. But yeah I fully agree that Fireflies wouldn't have cared and didn't care. None of that excuses what Joel did. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 8:51:58 PM #78:	Atralis posted... This... The argument that the solution to the moral dilemma is that there is no moral dilemma because the cure couldn't possibly work has always seemed childish to me. The whole point is for you to think about the fact that Joel is basically massacring the scientists that for all we know are closest to finding a cure and possibly right on the verge of finding one. We know that Ellie would ultimately choose to make the sacrifice if she was given the choice but Joel makes it for her. Joel is fully aware that he is mortal, he has lived a life of immense hardship and suffering and has lived through the end of the world in constant battle killing and seeing friends die all around him, hell he has even had a daughter killed 'for the greater good' before. You can understand why he would make the choice he made even if he thought Ellie could basically be turned into a cure. He doesn't care about 'the world' as much as he cares about the person right beside him. Agreed Especially that last sentence "The world fucked me, so I fucked the world." is Joel in one sentence. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950469362] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Atralis posted... </cite> <quote>This... The argument that the solution to the moral dilemma is that there is no moral dilemma because the cure couldn't possibly work has always seemed childish to me. The whole point is for you to think about the fact that Joel is basically massacring the scientists that for all we know are closest to finding a cure and possibly right on the verge of finding one. We know that Ellie would ultimately choose to make the sacrifice if she was given the choice but Joel makes it for her. Joel is fully aware that he is mortal, he has lived a life of immense hardship and suffering and has lived through the end of the world in constant battle killing and seeing friends die all around him, hell he has even had a daughter killed 'for the greater good' before. You can understand why he would make the choice he made even if he thought Ellie could basically be turned into a cure. He doesn't care about 'the world' as much as he cares about the person right beside him.</quote>Agreed Especially that last sentence "The world fucked me, so I fucked the world." is Joel in one sentence. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Atralis 02/09/21 8:55:34 PM #79:	UnfairRepresent posted... Agreed Especially that last sentence "The world fucked me, so I fucked the world." is Joel in one sentence. It isn't even about that in my mind. He wants to take Ellie, find his brother and live the rest of his life protecting the last two people he cares about in the world. He isn't the Joker he is just done sacrificing for the greater good. <cite>Atralis posted [p:950469489] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>Agreed Especially that last sentence "The world fucked me, so I fucked the world." is Joel in one sentence.</quote> It isn't even about that in my mind. He wants to take Ellie, find his brother and live the rest of his life protecting the last two people he cares about in the world. He isn't the Joker he is just done sacrificing for the greater good. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 9:00:28 PM #80:	UnfairRepresent posted... Well she did consent. No she did not. If you say you'd do anything to stop a mass shooting that doesn't mean I am allowed to shove you in the path of a shooter to save myself. Consent isn't "well if I asked she would have said yes so who cares?" Joel shot up the place because they basically said she's about to die any second now and he needs to leave. If he didn't make a call in that exact moment she would be dead. He knows she never had the chance to wake up and she didn't know she was going to die. There was no reason for anyone to be in that situation in this way. Which is why neither side is morally superior. That is the context. Fireflies didn't want to wake up Ellie and ask her to make a sacrifice and Joel didn't want to tell Ellie the truth because he didn't want to risk their relationship. If she was awake for these conversations he wouldn't have been able to lie to her and he'd lose Ellie regardless unless she made the choice to live and go with him. We'll never know because she wasn't given that option. Fireflies are the ones in power here. They could have done the right thing but they didn't. They didn't want to have that hard conversation with someone. That's on them. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950469631] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>Well she did consent.</quote> No she did not. If you say you'd do anything to stop a mass shooting that doesn't mean I am allowed to shove you in the path of a shooter to save myself. Consent isn't "well if I asked she would have said yes so who cares?" Joel shot up the place because they basically said she's about to die any second now and he needs to leave. If he didn't make a call in that exact moment she would be dead. He knows she never had the chance to wake up and she didn't know she was going to die. There was no reason for anyone to be in that situation in this way. Which is why neither side is morally superior. That is the context. Fireflies didn't want to wake up Ellie and ask her to make a sacrifice and Joel didn't want to tell Ellie the truth because he didn't want to risk their relationship. If she was awake for these conversations he wouldn't have been able to lie to her and he'd lose Ellie regardless unless she made the choice to live and go with him. We'll never know because she wasn't given that option. Fireflies are the ones in power here. They could have done the right thing but they didn't. They didn't want to have that hard conversation with someone. That's on them. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 9:02:14 PM #81:	Atralis posted... It isn't even about that in my mind. He wants to take Ellie, find his brother and live the rest of his life protecting the last two people he cares about in the world. He isn't the Joker he is just done sacrificing for the greater good. Sure, I wasn't trying to imply he was like the Joker or wanted the world to fail or wanted people to die. But he was a man who had lost himself. Been empty and depressed and soulless for decades. Now finally out of no where has a reason to live again, has happiness, has a purpose... And the world is going to take it all away from him.... again He can't take that. He can't handle that. The pain, the lonliness, the depression, the lack of purpose, the misery as he ages with nothing in his life? So fuck the world. It's time for me to get mine. Doesn't care what Ellie wants, doesn't care about "saving the human race" it's time for me to be happy. I deserve it. Actions of bitterness and fear. That's evil and selfish but it's a character arc. Joel is not supposed to be a good person. He's a villain. That's the point. That's the story. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950469684] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Atralis posted... </cite> <quote>It isn't even about that in my mind. He wants to take Ellie, find his brother and live the rest of his life protecting the last two people he cares about in the world. He isn't the Joker he is just done sacrificing for the greater good.</quote>Sure, I wasn't trying to imply he was like the Joker or wanted the world to fail or wanted people to die. But he was a man who had lost himself. Been empty and depressed and soulless for decades. Now finally out of no where has a reason to live again, has happiness, has a purpose... And the world is going to take it all away from him.... again He can't take that. He can't handle that. The pain, the lonliness, the depression, the lack of purpose, the misery as he ages with nothing in his life? So fuck the world. It's time for me to get mine. Doesn't care what Ellie wants, doesn't care about "saving the human race" it's time for me to be happy. I deserve it. Actions of bitterness and fear. That's evil and selfish but it's a character arc. Joel is not supposed to be a good person. He's a villain. That's the point. That's the story. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Proto_Spark 02/09/21 9:03:29 PM #82:	When did Ellie ever establish she would die if she had to for the cure? because I don't remember that. She certainly didn't think she was going to have to die from it, given she and Joel make plans for immediately after they finish. Its a big part of her character that she wants her whole experience to be "for something" but that doesn't mean she'd willingly die for it. UnfairRepresent posted... No one honest can deny Joel's actions are evil. Joel can't even deny it. Well yeah. Joel isn't a good character. Its made abundantly clear that Joel makes a selfish and dangerous decision, that he makes a terrible one by lying to Ellie, and possibly destroys his relationship with her when she sees straight through his shit. But its also not as basic a choice being made as "kill Ellie or save everyone" its "kill Ellie and let these bumbling idiots maybe have a chance at saving everyone (when there's no proof they have any idea what they're doing), but even if it works its also well too late since civilization has already collapsed" making Ellie have effectively died for nothing. <cite>Proto_Spark posted [p:950469729] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>When did Ellie ever establish she would die if she had to for the cure? because I don't remember that. She certainly didn't think she was going to have to die from it, given she and Joel make plans for immediately after they finish. Its a big part of her character that she wants her whole experience to be "for something" but that doesn't mean she'd willingly die for it. UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>No one honest can deny Joel's actions are evil. Joel can't even deny it.</quote> Well yeah. Joel isn't a good character. Its made abundantly clear that Joel makes a selfish and dangerous decision, that he makes a terrible one by lying to Ellie, and possibly destroys his relationship with her when she sees straight through his shit. But its also not as basic a choice being made as "kill Ellie or save everyone" its "kill Ellie and let these bumbling idiots maybe have a chance at saving everyone (when there's no proof they have any idea what they're doing), but even if it works its also well too late since civilization has already collapsed" making Ellie have effectively died for nothing. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 9:06:48 PM #83:	UnfairRepresent posted... Joel is not supposed to be a good person. He's a villain. That's the point. That's the story. The point of both games is that there isn't really a true villain or a true hero. People do violent things to get what they want and people suffer for it. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950469835] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>Joel is not supposed to be a good person. He's a villain. That's the point. That's the story.</quote> The point of both games is that there isn't really a true villain or a true hero. People do violent things to get what they want and people suffer for it. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 9:12:34 PM #84:	Proto_Spark posted... Its made abundantly clear that Joel makes a selfish and dangerous decision, that he makes a terrible one by lying to Ellie, and possibly destroys his relationship with her when she sees straight through his shit. Yes Proto_Spark posted... But its also not as basic a choice being made as "kill Ellie or save everyone" its "kill Ellie and let these bumbling idiots maybe have a chance at saving everyone (when there's no proof they have any idea what they're doing), but even if it works its also well too late since civilization has already collapsed" making Ellie have effectively died for nothing. No I'm tired of repeating myself but on a story level this doesn't add up with what's presented or the actions of the characters. And on a meta level, it turns the plot and character arcs into complete dogshit. "Maybe if Joker didn't put a pencil in that guy's eye in TDK that guy would have gone on to eat babies/cure cancer!" doesn't turn that scene into a moral dilemma, it's just being weird and antithetical to the movie on both a story and meta level. Darmik posted... The point of both games is that there isn't really a true villain or a true hero. People do violent things to get what they want and people suffer for it. Sure? That's like every single story not made for childre. And Joel is a villain. What a "True hero" and "True Villain" is I'll leave up to you. but Joel is a bad person who does evil and selfish things. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950470004] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Proto_Spark posted... </cite> <quote>Its made abundantly clear that Joel makes a selfish and dangerous decision, that he makes a terrible one by lying to Ellie, and possibly destroys his relationship with her when she sees straight through his shit.</quote>Yes Proto_Spark posted... </cite> <quote> But its also not as basic a choice being made as "kill Ellie or save everyone" its "kill Ellie and let these bumbling idiots maybe have a chance at saving everyone (when there's no proof they have any idea what they're doing), but even if it works its also well too late since civilization has already collapsed" making Ellie have effectively died for nothing.</quote>No I'm tired of repeating myself but on a story level this doesn't add up with what's presented or the actions of the characters. And on a meta level, it turns the plot and character arcs into complete dogshit. "Maybe if Joker didn't put a pencil in that guy's eye in TDK that guy would have gone on to eat babies/cure cancer!" doesn't turn that scene into a moral dilemma, it's just being weird and antithetical to the movie on both a story and meta level. Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>The point of both games is that there isn't really a true villain or a true hero. People do violent things to get what they want and people suffer for it.</quote> Sure? That's like every single story not made for childre. And Joel is a villain. What a "True hero" and "True Villain" is I'll leave up to you. but Joel is a bad person who does evil and selfish things. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 9:13:25 PM #85:	UnfairRepresent posted... but Joel is a bad person who does evil and selfish things So do the Fireflies. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950470038] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>but Joel is a bad person who does evil and selfish things</quote> So do the Fireflies. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 9:14:51 PM #86:	Well at least you're now admitting Joel is a bad person who does evil and selfish things. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950470071] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Well at least you're now admitting Joel is a bad person who does evil and selfish things. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 9:17:18 PM #87:	UnfairRepresent posted... Well at least you're now admitting Joel is a bad person who does evil and selfish things. Literally never said or claimed this wasn't the case. My claim is that both were bad and both were justified from their own perspectives. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950470152] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>Well at least you're now admitting Joel is a bad person who does evil and selfish things.</quote> Literally never said or claimed this wasn't the case. My claim is that both were bad and both were justified from their own perspectives. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Proto_Spark 02/09/21 9:29:11 PM #88:	Darmik posted... Literally never said or claimed this wasn't the case. My claim is that both were bad and both were justified from their own perspectives. This. The whole end of the game isn't supposed to be an easy choice. You aren't supposed to say "well one of these was obviously the only acceptable option" <cite>Proto_Spark posted [p:950470513] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>Literally never said or claimed this wasn't the case. My claim is that both were bad and both were justified from their own perspectives.</quote> This. The whole end of the game isn't supposed to be an easy choice. You aren't supposed to say "well one of these was obviously the only acceptable option" </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Shablagoo 02/09/21 9:32:51 PM #89:	My only complaint with Joel is that he didnt give Ellie the choice. But at the same time neither were the Fireflies. And there was really no proof that their dire experiment would be successful. They seemed desperate as fuck, especially hearing the audio tapes they all left behind. Joel absolutely made the right decision. --- "If you wanna grow your business you need to exploit more." ~Austin_Era_II "Out of those two? Racist for me... easily." ~Vicious_Dios <cite>Shablagoo posted [p:950470622] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>My only complaint with Joel is that he didnt give Ellie the choice. But at the same time neither were the Fireflies. And there was really no proof that their dire experiment would be successful. They seemed desperate as fuck, especially hearing the audio tapes they all left behind. Joel absolutely made the right decision. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
dave_is_slick 02/09/21 9:33:20 PM #90:	Darmik posted... Essentially you're saying that murdering a teenage girl to try and find a zombie cure is morally right and selfless. Isn't that a bit scary? Quick question, why did you engage? --- The most relaxing version of Aquatic Ambiance I've ever heard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl61y1XM7sM <cite>dave_is_slick posted [p:950470634] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>Essentially you're saying that murdering a teenage girl to try and find a zombie cure is morally right and selfless. Isn't that a bit scary?</quote>Quick question, why did you engage? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 9:33:49 PM #91:	j Proto_Spark posted... You aren't supposed to say "well one of these was obviously the only acceptable option" Yes you are. The game (and the sequel) hammer that home over and over and over and over. Joel lied to Ellie's face, he murdered Marlene and Surgeons, he destroyed the chance of a vaccine The ENTIRE point is that Joel made a selfish and evil action. That's his arc... If you go "Well actually Joel did everything right and the Fireflies are evil for spending decades to work tirelessly to save humanity. So really there was no character development whatsoever, the complex was no different to a bandit outpost really and Joel never lied to Ellie." then everything falls apart. What Joel did was completely and utterly unacceptable from a moral and pragmatic standpoint. that's the point, if you remove that point then the whole story becomes pointless. This is crazy. You're not supposed to think Joel did the right thing. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950470648] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>j Proto_Spark posted... </cite> <quote>You aren't supposed to say "well one of these was obviously the only acceptable option"</quote>Yes you are. The game (and the sequel) hammer that home over and over and over and over. Joel lied to Ellie's face, he murdered Marlene and Surgeons, he destroyed the chance of a vaccine The ENTIRE point is that Joel made a selfish and evil action. That's his arc... If you go "Well actually Joel did everything right and the Fireflies are evil for spending decades to work tirelessly to save humanity. So really there was no character development whatsoever, the complex was no different to a bandit outpost really and Joel never lied to Ellie." then everything falls apart. What Joel did was completely and utterly unacceptable from a moral and pragmatic standpoint. that's the point, if you remove that point then the whole story becomes pointless. This is crazy. You're not supposed to think Joel did the right thing. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 9:34:56 PM #92:	UnfairRepresent posted... j Yes you are. The game (and the sequel) hammer that home over and over and over and over. Joel lied to Ellie's face, he murdered Marlene and Surgeons, he destroyed the chance of a vaccine The ENTIRE point is that Joel made a selfish and evil action. That's his arc... If you go "Well actually Joel did everything right and the Fireflies are evil for spending decades to work tirelessly to save humanity. So really there was no character development whatsoever, the complex was no different to a bandit outpost really and Joel never lied to Ellie." then everything falls apart. What Joel did was completely and utterly unacceptable from a moral and pragmatic standpoint. that's the point, if you remove that point then the whole story becomes pointless. This is crazy. You're not supposed to think Joel did the right thing. You're not supposed to think the Fireflies did either. That's what you keep ignoring for some reason. Neither actions were acceptable and the Fireflies were not portrayed as a morally superior group. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950470677] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>j Yes you are. The game (and the sequel) hammer that home over and over and over and over. Joel lied to Ellie's face, he murdered Marlene and Surgeons, he destroyed the chance of a vaccine The ENTIRE point is that Joel made a selfish and evil action. That's his arc... If you go "Well actually Joel did everything right and the Fireflies are evil for spending decades to work tirelessly to save humanity. So really there was no character development whatsoever, the complex was no different to a bandit outpost really and Joel never lied to Ellie." then everything falls apart. What Joel did was completely and utterly unacceptable from a moral and pragmatic standpoint. that's the point, if you remove that point then the whole story becomes pointless. This is crazy. You're not supposed to think Joel did the right thing.</quote> You're not supposed to think the Fireflies did either. That's what you keep ignoring for some reason. Neither actions were acceptable and the Fireflies were not portrayed as a morally superior group. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Shablagoo 02/09/21 9:37:27 PM #93:	UnfairRepresent posted... The ENTIRE point is that Joel made a selfish and evil action. That's his arc... The Last of Us Part II SPOILERS ~~Thats a retrofitted thing from the sequel. It was not at all what the first game presented.~~ --- "If you wanna grow your business you need to exploit more." ~Austin_Era_II "Out of those two? Racist for me... easily." ~Vicious_Dios <cite>Shablagoo posted [p:950470741] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>The ENTIRE point is that Joel made a selfish and evil action. That's his arc...</quote> The Last of Us Part II SPOILERS Thats a retrofitted thing from the sequel. It was not at all what the first game presented. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 9:40:53 PM #94:	Shablagoo posted... The Last of Us Part II SPOILERS ~~Thats a retrofitted thing from the sequel. It was not at all what the first game presented.~~ Yes it is. Entirely. The sequel only hammered the point home because guys like you and Darmik kept making excuses for Joel They couldn't have pushed any harder how selfish and evil Joel's actions were. Executing Marlene and Surgeons, lying to Ellie's face. This was never supposed to be a debate. If the camera was behind Marlene and not Joel you would never defend it. Darmik posted... You're not supposed to think the Fireflies did either. That's what you keep ignoring for some reason. Not ignoring a thing. Unlike you Neither actions were acceptable and the Fireflies were not portrayed as a morally superior group. Except they were. Fireflies actions were to save the human race and build a future for the world. Joel's actions were mass murder and lying so he could be happy and fuck everyone else. Fireflies are morally superior. Completely. Joel is a monster --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950470837] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Shablagoo posted... </cite> <quote>The Last of Us Part II SPOILERS Thats a retrofitted thing from the sequel. It was not at all what the first game presented.</quote>Yes it is. Entirely. The sequel only hammered the point home because guys like you and Darmik kept making excuses for Joel They couldn't have pushed any harder how selfish and evil Joel's actions were. Executing Marlene and Surgeons, lying to Ellie's face. This was never supposed to be a debate. If the camera was behind Marlene and not Joel you would never defend it. Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>You're not supposed to think the Fireflies did either. That's what you keep ignoring for some reason. </quote> Not ignoring a thing. Unlike you <quote> Neither actions were acceptable and the Fireflies were not portrayed as a morally superior group.</quote> Except they were. Fireflies actions were to save the human race and build a future for the world. Joel's actions were mass murder and lying so he could be happy and fuck everyone else. Fireflies are morally superior. Completely. Joel is a monster </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 9:41:50 PM #95:	Shablagoo posted... The Last of Us Part II SPOILERS ~~Thats a retrofitted thing from the sequel. It was not at all what the first game presented.~~ It's not really presented as such in the second game either more than an 'actions have consequences' sort of thing. The Fireflies hospital was a catalyst for a lot of shit. But Joel himself became a good person afterwards. Ellie ultimately regrets holding a grudge against him and forgives him. Joel wouldn't do anything differently even with how it turns out. If certain things were handled differently it could have all played out differently. That's the ultimate tragedy of it all really. UnfairRepresent posted... Except they were. Fireflies actions were to save the human race and build a future for the world. Joel's actions were mass murder and lying so he could be happy and fuck everyone else. Fireflies are morally superior. Completely. Joel is a monster The people they were blowing up thought they were doing the right thing too. That's sort of the whole thing with the series. That there is no real moral superior group. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Murdering a teenager is not morally superior in any scenario. Killing people for the greater good is what many of the monsters in TLOU believe. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950470859] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Shablagoo posted... </cite> <quote>The Last of Us Part II SPOILERS Thats a retrofitted thing from the sequel. It was not at all what the first game presented.</quote> It's not really presented as such in the second game either more than an 'actions have consequences' sort of thing. The Fireflies hospital was a catalyst for a lot of shit. But Joel himself became a good person afterwards. Ellie ultimately regrets holding a grudge against him and forgives him. Joel wouldn't do anything differently even with how it turns out. If certain things were handled differently it could have all played out differently. That's the ultimate tragedy of it all really. UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>Except they were. Fireflies actions were to save the human race and build a future for the world. Joel's actions were mass murder and lying so he could be happy and fuck everyone else. Fireflies are morally superior. Completely. Joel is a monster</quote> The people they were blowing up thought they were doing the right thing too. That's sort of the whole thing with the series. That there is no real moral superior group. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Murdering a teenager is not morally superior in any scenario. Killing people for the greater good is what many of the monsters in TLOU believe. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TendoDRM 02/09/21 9:47:16 PM #96:	The only thing Joel did wrong was lie to Ellie after about what happened. --- Cel Damage! Tonight at 8:00! <cite>TendoDRM posted [p:950471023] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>The only thing Joel did wrong was lie to Ellie after about what happened. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 02/09/21 9:51:19 PM #97:	Darmik posted... That there is no real moral superior group. Oh shut up. The cannibals and bandits are not morally inferior to Marlene or Tommy? Get the fuck outta here Joel did not believe he was doing the right thing for a second. He was doing the selfish thing for Joel. Tommy was trying to make a community Fireflies were trying to ensure the survival of the human race. Joel was lying and murdering for his own selfish happiness. The Fireflies and Tommy are morally superior to Joel and not selfish. That's literally the point. Joel is not a good person. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgur.com/yPw05Ob <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:950471130] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted... </cite> <quote>That there is no real moral superior group.</quote>Oh shut up. The cannibals and bandits are not morally inferior to Marlene or Tommy? Get the fuck outta here Joel did not believe he was doing the right thing for a second. He was doing the selfish thing for Joel. Tommy was trying to make a community Fireflies were trying to ensure the survival of the human race. Joel was lying and murdering for his own selfish happiness. The Fireflies and Tommy are morally superior to Joel and not selfish. That's literally the point. Joel is not a good person. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 02/09/21 9:56:13 PM #98:	UnfairRepresent posted... The cannibals and bandits are not morally inferior to Marlene or Tommy? Get the fuck outta here Not having one morally superior group does not mean that certain people and groups aren't more evil than others. UnfairRepresent posted... Joel did not believe he was doing the right thing for a second. He was doing the selfish thing for Joel. Do you remember how TLOU2 Spoilers ~~Abby's Dad answered when asked if he would do the same thing if it was Abby? He didn't say anything. Because he wouldn't do it either. Nobody would.~~ UnfairRepresent posted... The Fireflies and Tommy are morally superior to Joel and not selfish. That's literally the point. Joel is not a good person. Tommy would also murder all of the fireflies if they killed Joel. The Fireflies car bombed people to destabilize towns and demand to murder teenagers to take out their brain to try and find a cure. None of them are good people. It's easy to say you have the moral superiority when you aren't the one making any sacrifice. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:950471266] in Did Joel m... [t:79284271]...</cite> <quote>UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>The cannibals and bandits are not morally inferior to Marlene or Tommy? Get the fuck outta here</quote> Not having one morally superior group does not mean that certain people and groups aren't more evil than others. UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>Joel did not believe he was doing the right thing for a second. He was doing the selfish thing for Joel.</quote> Do you remember how TLOU2 Spoilers Abby's Dad answered when asked if he would do the same thing if it was Abby? He didn't say anything. Because he wouldn't do it either. Nobody would. UnfairRepresent posted... </cite> <quote>The Fireflies and Tommy are morally superior to Joel and not selfish. That's literally the point. Joel is not a good person.</quote> Tommy would also murder all of the fireflies if they killed Joel. The Fireflies car bombed people to destabilize towns and demand to murder teenagers to take out their brain to try and find a cure. None of them are good people. It's easy to say you have the moral superiority when you aren't the one making any sacrifice. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > Did Joel make the right choice at the end of TLOU? *spoilers* (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > Did Joel make the right choice at the end of TLOU? spoilers