Lurker > HeroDelTiempo17

GranzonEx posted...

our debate was over, you're being deliberately obtuse

I'm not, you started on the position that Daenerys is a shitty ruler and always has been. I'm pointing out until recently she hasn't been much shittier at all than the other leaders and plenty of people have pointed out her comparative upsides.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

GranzonEx posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

So both cultures have scenarios where mass rape and pillaging is acceptable, but only one is savage?

Westeros has scenarios and it's not accepted as culture, Dothraki considers it their culture

How is warfare not part of Westeros culture? I'm not trying to be out here like "both sides are equally bad!" but do you not think that the series might be making a point about the horrors of warfare and the hypocrisy of "polite" society that ignores what it was built on while benefitting from it?

This again ties into the peasants not giving a single shit about the game of thrones because they are the ones getting raped and murdered over it.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

So both cultures have scenarios where mass rape and pillaging is acceptable, but only one is savage?
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

GranzonEx posted...

not to mention her power comes from taking "power" from morally bankrupt people, that doesn't suddenly make the Dothraki not rapers and pillagers, and she's still a slave owner with the Unsullied

They literally are not enslaved. She freed them and gave them a choice. The story plays with the "white savior" tropes by (briefly) exploring the power vacuums left behind, the total lack of respect or understanding between different cultures, the plight of the new class of freedmen, and comparing forced slavery to fuedal servitude under a monarch...but that only works if they are not actually enslaved.

Also as we saw in just this episode, and repeatedly throughout the series, ALL armies rape and pillage, even the ones led by the Starks.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

redrocket posted...

I guess Aragorn was a giant douche after all for accepting the crown at the end of LotR instead of establishing a democratic system of government for Middle Earth.

Here is a quote from GRRM on this exact subject.

Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and its not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesnt ask the question: What was Aragorns tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs arent gone theyre in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

GranzonEx posted...

empty words and empty offer, the slaves only knew one way of life: obey

remember the slaves begging to go back into slavery because she fucked up their culture/tradition/economy?

The slaves still have agency, this is a bad mischaracterization. You admit they have agency when you bring up how some (but not all) wanted to go back into servitude or reopen the fighting pits.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Isn't she advocating for the same exact system of government that they currently have? I guess she can be a more "just" ruler, but Cersei never really oppressed her people any more than other absolute sovereigns did... right? It just seems silly unless Dany wants to establish some sort of democratic system of governance (which would make her motivations way more interesting, fwiw).

Yes, this is the point. The only "good" ruler in the entire series is Ned and that's despite the broken system. And even he participated in a bloody rebellion to install his friend in power.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

at least my boy jon snow still knows nothing, I hope they don't ruin his character by having him learn a single god damn thing
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

GranzonEx posted...

she destroyed KL to instill fear in the people, they don't love her but at least they'll fear and respect her power now that she's shown it

she was still debating doing it when she heard the bell

I was disappointed with the bell scene overall and lack of insight into her actions, but this was also my feeling given the Jon scene where she chooses fear.

God dammit Jon all you had to do was fuck your aunt and we could have avoided all this.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

XIII_rocks posted...

You're both right in a way. The truth imo is in the middle ground here.

Jaime isn't shitty and irredeemable. But he thinks he is. The tragedy of his character isn't his shittiness, it's his self-loathing

I also like this take. He either doesnt want to be redeemed or feels like he can't be so he stops trying.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

No way
(edit: this was to Han)

As recently as Riverrun, Jaime was still head over heels for Cersei.

this doesn't make him shitty and irredeemable though

Jaime personally pushed a child out of a tower when he was discovered fucking his sister.

The fact that it's even debatable as to whether this guy can actually be redeemed is a testament to the strength of the storytelling of the series.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

No way
(edit: this was to Han)

As recently as Riverrun, Jaime was still head over heels for Cersei. Compare to the books, at this point in the story he was completely disillusioned with her and himself.

If anything, the show's treatment of Jaime makes more sense in retrospect if they knew this is how he'd end up.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

After thinking about it I am fine with Jaime's arc. Some people are just shitty and cant be redeemed no matter how much you want them to be. That is NOT at all how I wanted his story to end but it's fine. That's a valid lesson.

And I can see it going down for Book Jaime too. The show already trashed Jaime by taking so long for him to face turn, compared to the books that did it much earlier. But I can totally see GRRM making us feel sympathy and then STILL doing the heel turn reversion across two more god damn books too.

Rest in pieces Jaime Lannister, eternal dumpster fire of a human being.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

GOB fell off pretty hard in S5 or else I'd vote for him. I think I have to agree Lucille is the most consistently great across all seasons, though. Michael's a distant third, and I actually like his "heel turn" in S4-5.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Suprak the Stud posted...

Apparently 4chan's intended use of this was to confuse people into thinking people were just playing the circle game. How very funny and cool of them. >_>

And yes I am just a little extra annoyed because it inadvertently worked on me exactly like they thought it would.

How is this any different from Pepe the Frog? 4chan's "ironic" racist shitposting just eventually gets actually adopted by racists.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Maniac64 posted...

Welp, time for Chris Perkins to TPK the Wafflecrew and end the show.

Their crossovers with the Penny Arcade DnD games are the only frame of reference I have for these people. And losing Holly there would actually kinda suck!

But at least Holly wasn't the one soliciting nudes from underage girls.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Myrcella was never used as a bargaining chip by Cersei. Tyrion sends her to Dorne because it's safer and more politically favorable and Cersei is furious about it. Her relationship with Myrcella is Cersei at maximum overbearing mom. Tommen was about protecting their mom/son relationship and not losing him to Margaery. She makes every effort to protect him, but she was delusional enough to think he'd accept the outcome and choose her.

If you count that as using her kids as pieces in the game, sure. But Cersei is playing with different rules. Everyone else is playing Risk but she's playing Life and planting explosives under the other cars.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Cersei definitely is kind of an idiot, or at least irrational. From her perspective her kid is as good as dead if she surrenders. That's why as Scarlet pointed out she was willing to poison her children if Stannis won. But the show does a really good job of making Cersei look smarter. She gets to be retroactively right about the Tyrells plotting to kill her kids and the white walkers being a non-issue. Plus Lena Headey is way too good at smirking, it makes it look like she's always winning.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

foolm0r0n posted...

That's what I'm talking about. Obviously she never intends for her kids to die, but she definitely knows they are on the table when she's playing her game. And she refuses to stop playing it, because she cares about power more than her kids. Tommen would have been the only real surprise since that was 100% her fault.

It makes no sense to read Cersei as a terrible monster except she actually values her kids more than anything. That's what Tyrion tried to hit on in the last episode and she clearly told him he was wrong.

I don't disagree that she values power. But I think Han is spot on. She is trying to secure her children's safety, the most power for her kids and for herself to be powerful by having the most influence over her kids. Her frustration at not being able to accomplish all three of these things is what motivates her. That's why she views the Tyrells as her enemies even though the Lannisters as a whole are well-positioned with them and Tywin running things. SHE wants to be the Lannister matriarch and rule her family and can't abide other people making decisions about it.

Cersei now is different from Cersei with kids and she only has her hold on power now. But either way she would've been stupid to listen to Tyrion and not think Dany wouldn't just execute her while pregnant. Cersei is naturally paranoid of anyone she views as an enemy.

I guess basically I agree that Cersei values power more than her kids' safety but she herself doesn't see it that way. To her, her kids will never be safe unless they have all the power.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

I guess we should start prosecuting miscarriages as involuntary manslaughter, then.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

foolm0r0n posted...

Cersei has also set up most of her victories herself, often knowing there would be a huge cost like blowing up a church or her children dying. She's just very much more willing to make sacrifices to win the game. Even back when she got Ned killed, it wasn't because anyone else was especially stupid (unless you count the entire world believing Joffrey was legitimately a Baratheon...)

This is a weird read of Cersei. She never willingly sacrificed a child - that was all completely accidental and her biggest failure. She also never tried to actually have Ned killed. Ned died because no one could control Joffery, also a massive failure on her part because it led directly to the North declaring war. She rolls with the sacrifices once they come but most of them are consequences of her refusal to compromise.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

RyoCaliente posted...

Not for me, but I put it there because it is a trait that can be...problematic? I don't know, I feel like the women in GoT have always schemed more backstabby than for instance Tyrion was, but that might be me.

Definitely just you because your baseline for male scheming is Tyrion (who has gotten more honest with time) for some reason and not Tywin, Varys, and Littlefinger.

Edit: Also Walder fucking Frey, the poster boy for unlikable scheming backstabber.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

redrocket posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I had part of the leak spoiled for me by a dumbass on Twitter. I assume it must be what people are mad about and...I can honestly kind of see why. I'm trying not to judge until I see the last two episodes.

Is it something that seems objectively bad?

I personally wouldn't go that far...but yes. It absolutely explains the reaction.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

I had part of the leak spoiled for me by a dumbass on Twitter. I assume it must be what people are mad about and...I can honestly kind of see why. I'm trying not to judge until I see the last two episodes.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

HashtagSEP posted...

To be fair, didn't Bernie say basically the same thing a few weeks ago, so it's not just a moderate-left thing?

Does anybody actually support impeachment because I might just support them out of principle at this point

Warren, Beto, and Harris have directly advocated for it. Buttigieg says Trump "deserves" impeachment but his role is to beat him in the election.

So this is actually Bernie not giving a shit.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

mnkboy907 posted...

Yeah after showing open aggression by killing Missandei, there's absolutely no reason why Cersei wouldn't then have Tyrion turned into a pin cushion and have her ballistas all fire at Dany while her guard was down.

But oh well.

If she aims the ballistas at the army, they are immediately torched by Drogon

And Drogon has projectile-dodging Matrix skills unlike her other two dragons so if they open fire on him theres a very real chance they still get torched.

I honestly didnt see a problem with this, though it LOOKS super goofy with Daenerys's tiny-ass army.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

I will say the show doesn't communicate the passage of time well so it is hard to say what is actually nonsensical vs justified but confusing (like Varys).

If only they had a cool map or something they could use to represent traveling and time progressing
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

ExThaNemesis posted...

Catelyn Stark spends MULTIPLE chapters travelling from Riverrun back up to the Twins before the Red Wedding. No fast travel at all.

But notice how few chapters by comparison it takes Ned and Robert to get to King's Landing from Winterfell, and Catlyn basically teleports to KL to talk to Littlefinger before taking forever to get back north.

It isn't "it takes a long time to travel, so events happen to the characters" but "certain events need to happen during the traveling period."
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

GANON1025 posted...

Euron rules honestly. Is he somehow cooler in the books?

Well he hasn't gotten as much screentime in the books but he dresses like a flamboyant pirate caricature and has a magic dragon mind control horn so I am going to say "yes."
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

And even the Tarly thing can be argued as completely justified. By Stark morality, "executing political traitors who refuse to serve or take the black" is Honorable and Just. The only difference is her horrific method of execution.

She's always done a good job of riding the gray morality line in still heroic ways and the swerve to her about to act on something indefensible like burning King's Landing actually makes sense now.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

I wasn't a fan of the concept of Dany going full mad queen last season but I do like it now that she has lost literally everything.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Sansa is definitely the smartest candidate for the throne but her inherent distrust of Daenerys and refusal to accept her as queen was a dumb play. Understandable, but dumb to not even pretend to play along. If Sansa endorses Dany, Dany will be more likely to listen to her advice. Then if Dany wins you can fill up her council with Stark sympathisers (in addition to Jon and Tyrion) and have almost complete authority over the North.

The fact that the North is allied with the Vale and the Riverlands (I think?) complicates things too. The show has basically forgotten about them and it's unclear if Sansa planned on just abandoning them or assimilating them into the North...but either way if Dany wins you can also put your allies there on the council.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Nanis23 posted...

Gotta say though, the whole "not being able to keep a secret and letting it spread" is something more fitting for a soap opera and not Game of Thrones, but ok

The show is based almost entirely on character interactions and the biggest plot points are centered around baby mama drama so it's definitely on brand.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Imagine if Daenerys had listened to Sansa and let her soldiers rest. King's Landing would be 90% covered in ballistas.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Cap will be around as Captain Falcon and I wouldn't rule out successors to the other two by the time Avengers sequels start to come out.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Prep is so inherently tied to how they design Rogue spells that if they nerfed it out of nowhere without planning it, it'll affect every Rogue spell for sets yet to release in addition to some in Classic/Basic. That said it should have been HoF'd in advance by now. It's a textbook design space + power level issue and they've adjusted cards for less.

I kinda liked when Rogue could generate extra coins or just put Counterfeit Coin in the deck. That seemed a lot safer than the things Prep does when it's a problem.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Speaking of alternate Captain Marvels, we already have Monica Rambeau setup.

Give me my god damn Nextwave movie.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

HashtagSEP posted...

She was doomed the minute their motivations were revealed

Hawkeye has a legit family
Black Widow said her family was the team. Which was basically about to disband as we know it.

That's true, that's a good point.

I think it really comes down to leaving SUCH a bad taste in my mouth that BW didnt have a solo movie yet. It should've happened way sooner and I'd probably be completely satisfied if it happened in that order. Now it feels like they killed her off to drive up interest in the movie now that it is presumably the last time she'll show up.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

RyoCaliente posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

best female character

Gamora has left the chat.

Lmao Gamora is probably the worst. She is a prop for other characters in every movie she's in.

Edit: I like that she got rebooted though, maybe they can give her a new direction
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

I dislike the Black Widow death the more I think about it. She still had a ton of potential and killing her off when she had a solo movie announced just feels bad. And for what, are they gonna use Hawkeye more? His whole motivation was to get his family back so seems unlikely.

Also made the shot of all the women feel flat and cynical after they had just killed off their best female character for an emotional reaction after consistently sidelining her for years.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Man, Barnes is not the problem with Big Priest. I mean, it is ONE problem, but changing it will not affect the playability of the deck the way people want. There were Barnesless builds going around a while back. They were still good, if not better.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Not too surprising compared to last rotation because we knew how much power was concentrated in the 2017 sets. Plus they also got rid of the two strongest cards from the entire 2018 card set.

It is surprising and interesting that Rumble is still kind of a dud.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Token Druid seems sick but theres a lot of different builds that are all cool. I've been playing a pretty normal midrange version that runs Stelladris and a small package of choose spells (Raptors, wrath, power). There's the heavy treant synergy build, a super aggro build with Magic carpet, and my friend got 12-2 in Brawl with a build that has a light treant package (basically just enough to make Mulchmuncher good). I've also seen versions that run the healing package for the stag and dormant legendary. So many moving parts and I dont know what I want to take into brawliseum yet.

There are some heavy aoe matchups like Shaman and Mage that are a real pain, though.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Not sure if secret paladin is a real deck again or just really easy to beat up on people around rank 15.

As soon as people start putting in Chief Inspector though, it's over.
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

I'm still mad about Notorious Chase. This might be the worst localization, and I usually like the goofy name changes!
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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.