Lurker > StealThisSheen

...Oh. So Fox News, of all places, is the one actually giving the facts and not just making a funny headline out of an opinion from the Judge

"Prosecutors, in their response to the defense request for a Supreme Court review, had argued that Demesme's statement was not an unequivocal request for an attorney and that his later confession was, therefore, admissible.

But they did not focus on the word's "lawyer dog."

They focused on the words "if y'all think I did it," as evidence of equivocation.

They also said Demesme, who had been advised of his rights, was immediately advised again that "whether he wanted a lawyer was his choice," and that he continued answering questions."
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/11/03/the-lawyer-dog-decision-isnt-obviously-wrong/?utm_term=.c07a3a8fd0ee

Here's an opinion piece that is doing a better job of what I'm trying to say, and why I'm surprised it's the "dog" that did it and not the way he phrased it before that
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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I mean, I'll be fair.

Cops probably do often continue questioning after lawyers are requested, which is wrong. However, there's a check in place in that courts will throw out statements made after that fact.

What's different here is that the suspect's own choice of vocabulary made the court decide not to throw out the statements. And that's what I don't have an issue with.
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Ashethan posted...

Doesn't matter how he said it.

By law it 100% matters how he said it, yes.

You can't just say "Lawyer" and then have it upheld that you requested a lawyer.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Suprak the Stud posted...

At what point in the process do we decide that someone no longer has their constitutionally guaranteed rights? When the police officer decides they are a suspect?

I'd say when they can't bring themselves to clearly ask for a lawyer!

Dumb criminals screwing themselves out of rights doesn't seem like an issue to me

I mean he was pretty clear.

If he said "I want a lawyer, sir" would he be more deserving of his rights?

I'm not really sure where he lost his rights. He still got a lawyer.

What's in question here is if they could use any statements made after his "lawyer dog" line.

Courts decided they could.

He didn't lose any rights, directly. He just kept talking.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Actually, upon looking into it more...

This is how I feel, if yall think I did it, I know that I didnt do it so why dont you just give me a lawyer dog cause this is not whats up.

appears to be why they didn't stop questioning, since cops have a pretty decent amount of leeway in deciding what sounds like a direct request for a lawyer or not.

What normally happens is it's gone over when they try to use statements in court and thrown out if it's decided he clearly asked for a lawyer.

It seems like they were originally going with "Well, the request wasn't completely clear."

Somehow, it was the "lawyer dog" part that stuck. >_>
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Lopen posted...

But you gotta trick it with something better than this, for sure. This is probably just gonna complicate it more than it should be if they'd gone about it the normal way.

To be fair, it doesn't sound like the trick actually happened right then and there.

The way it's portrayed, he asked for a lawyer, then kept talking before the lawyer arrived. Normally, anything said after a lawyer is requested cannot be used in court. However, once they got the admission, they decided to try and argue "Well, we can use it because technically..." after the fact

It doesn't sound like they purposely set out to get him to say "lawyer dog" or anything. They just took advantage of something he did after the fact, kinda like getting saliva from a pop can.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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This would be an issue to me if he his own disrespect of the situation hadn't brought about his own undoing.

Sure, who knew saying "dog" would bring about a case like this. But I feel literally zero sympathy because he brought it on himself. If he couldn't say "Get me a lawyer" without "dog" at the end even once, which allowed them to even win the case in the first place, that's his problem. And if he was innocent, it wouldn't have been used because there would have been nothing to admit to.

Really don't see anything to get mad about in this specific case.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

At what point in the process do we decide that someone no longer has their constitutionally guaranteed rights? When the police officer decides they are a suspect?

I'd say when they can't bring themselves to clearly ask for a lawyer!

Dumb criminals screwing themselves out of rights doesn't seem like an issue to me
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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SSJBKK20Vegito posted...

This is true... but it's also an incredibly slippery slope to go down

It is, but only as far as... If you're too dumb to repeatedly ask for a lawyer and make it clear you're doing so, then... Sure, you may slip down said slope.

In this specific case, it's not about race. It's about keeping an admission of rape from getting thrown out.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Like, Iunno

He admitted to doing it afterwards

This feels more like... Good on them for being clever and making the admission stick, over "That poor black man is being taken advantage of."
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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LapisLazuli posted...

Suprak the Stud posted...

I had to check this like five times to make sure this wasn't a satirical article.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2017/11/02/the-suspect-told-police-give-me-a-lawyer-dog-the-court-says-he-wasnt-asking-for-a-lawyer/

Man says "give me a lawyer, dog".

Louisiana Supreme Court says he was asking for a "lawyer dog" and thus wasn't invoking his right to counsel.

So either they're looking for a loophole to make it easier to throw another black man in jail, or they're actually that fucking stupid.

Which is worse?

I mean, to be fair, he's convicted of raping kids, so it's hard to feel bad for him
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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b2quared posted...

If it's any wrestler, it's Luke Gallows.

The case has been solved!
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Have we figured out if it's me yet, because I'd really like to know
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Is Ulti literally trying to take credit for something 90% of the topic was saying

Im sorry what?

He's saying he called Bernie being screwed/DNC rigged it for Hillary and that everybody tried to tell him he was wrong
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Is Ulti literally trying to take credit for something 90% of the topic was saying
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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velocycloraptor posted...

Must have been SEP copying my velociraptor handwriting

Well, it's the only handwriting I can forge, so I may as well!
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Explain

Like, is this a recent thing or what
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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As good as it is that Rose McGowan is talking about stuff like this, she needs to tone down the crazy a little bit before the message gets off track

Saying a warrant for her arrest for drugs is just "trying to silence her" when it was issued months before any of this came up isn't going to help anything
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Oh man I'm glad Ulti still has me on ignore for pointing out that his source on the "Vegas shooter had Antifa literature and didn't actually shoot himself" was InfoWars.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Jakyl25 posted...

I know coding isnt glamorous, but even if coal was coming back, wouldnt you rather NOT get black lung if given the chance?

You'd think. But a mix of "Trump said coal is coming back!" and the money for it coming from an Obama program was enough to turn idiots against it.

Initial plan was like, 10 rounds, employ 500 people.

It got one round, employed 17 people.

I know because I was one of those 17.

And I got to literally stand there and go "...Do I not exist?" as the Mayor himself was recorded for the Daily Signal going "Nobody got any jobs. The money should've went to us instead to help coal."
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Dancedreamer posted...

Peace___Frog posted...

Coal isn't coming back, just like bronze and copper toolmaking won't be making a comeback, just like producing tube televisions won't be making a comeback, just like wooden shipbuilding won't be making a comeback. We need retraining for these workers; 45's proposed budget cuts funding for retaining programs, and those who are the target market for those programs believe him when he says that coal will make a comeback.

What's really bad is that a lot of those workers are turning down that training. They want their coal jobs, and it doesn't matter what kills coal at this point.

A tech company came to where I live to train people (mostly out of work coal miners) to code. The initial plan was for several rounds and atleast 500 people

It got run out of town after one round because the people and local government said "Trump said coal is coming back and this is getting in the way of coal."
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Were you not here when the world decided to change how you spell certain words?

I'll maik sure you get a copy of the memo
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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That said, there is a video of one of the sign planters trying to get through the crowd, and the crowd showing restraint by pressing around him chanting but not striking him and yelling "No hitting"
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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lordloki12 posted...

Looking like that banner was a Mike Cernovich plant.

Yep. The picture came from a guy posting it as "Look at this fake sign," then people like PJW ran with it as being real. Original guy told Twitter it was stolen/being reused with false information, which is why they started taking it down and why PJW said the whole "Twitter is trying to censor this" bit.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Braun is the top everything
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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lordloki12 posted...

The problem is the shitty service. If you want better service you have to talk to the manager. There are people who don't ever tip no matter the service so not tipping doesn't send the message you think it does. You can do both but not talking to the manager means nothing gets fixed.

If it's just one or two times, there's not really any point to "sending a message." Tipping is a reward for good service. If somebody gives shitty service, you just don't tip them. If they do it continuously/it becomes a problem, then you raise it to the manager, sure.

You're making this out to be a bigger deal than it is.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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lordloki12 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

lordloki12 posted...

If you want to solve a problem you talk to the manager not the driver. Not tipping the driver doesnt solve the problem and in time only makes them hate you as a customer.

So if it's the driver's fault, you tip them anyway, then hope the manager does something about it while you gain literally no satisfaction and have no idea if the manager even did anything?

Nope, sorry. If you get shitty service, there's nothing wrong with not tipping. You shouldn't have to stand on your head and try to figure out what possibly went wrong.

Not tipping the driver isnt going to solve the problem you think you are solving. You are free to not tip if you want that satisfaction but it wont actually fix anything. If you want to fix the problem you have to talk to the manager. Let them chew out the driver or fix a busted system.

The problem is "Not wanting to tip for shitty service." I'd say not tipping solves that pretty nicely.

The issue is that you seem to think even shitty service is still entitled to a tip, which isn't the case.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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MariaTaylor posted...

I'm actually certain that it was the driver who screwed up, so yeah. it's a really pointless angle to argue. I mean, for like the fifteenth time already, I said something to him last time about how I put special directions and he didn't follow them. and I order from this place ALL THE TIME. all of the other drivers get my special directions every time I order. they are printed right on the receipt. in order for the same driver to mess up consecutive times when delivering to the same place and have it not be his fault, and also not respond with something along the lines of 'oh I didn't get the directions' the original time would be one massively huge cosmic coincidence which should be beyond the fathoming of any mortal mind (aside from the great dipshit12)

Did you check to find out what kind of day he was having first

Maybe he had a fight with his girlfriend

Maybe his dog died

Maybe he stepped on some Legos barefoot

You don't know so you probably should have tipped
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Mac Arrowny posted...

That's not replying to you.

I know. I was adding an extra reply to Lasa, sorry.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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I mean, if you'd prefer me to say the argument of "You don't know who screwed up even though it's most likely the driver so you should just tip anyway" is also stupid, I will.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Can't make sense of thinking "Well, you should assume it's more likely that they didn't get the instructions somehow than they just didn't follow them, and so you should feel bad" otherwise.

pretty sure his argument is not that. seems to me it's "you're not entirely sure that it was his fault so you potentially screwed him over for something he didn't do."

in fairness, lisel already replied with "i understand this, i just don't give a shit" so yeah.

And again, my argument is that it's not the customer's job to find out who screwed up first when 90% of the time it's the driver.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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I just don't get where this "You must tip no matter what, you're paying most of their salary" thought process came from.

If I do a shitty job, my boss isn't gonna keep paying me for very long, so... Maybe tips do make up most of what they make, but if they're doing a shitty job, why pay 'em?
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Lopen posted...

lordloki12

Former delivery driver

Probably a bad one too

Sounds like it. Can't make sense of thinking "Well, you should assume it's more likely that they didn't get the instructions somehow than they just didn't follow them, and so you should feel bad" otherwise.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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lordloki12 posted...

If you want to solve a problem you talk to the manager not the driver. Not tipping the driver doesnt solve the problem and in time only makes them hate you as a customer.

So if it's the driver's fault, you tip them anyway, then hope the manager does something about it while you gain literally no satisfaction and have no idea if the manager even did anything?

Nope, sorry. If you get shitty service, there's nothing wrong with not tipping. You shouldn't have to stand on your head and try to figure out what possibly went wrong.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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They both take things in opposite directions

Mario's so jam packed with Moons to collect that you often bump into them without even meaning to, which could theoretically make it feel kinda bloated

Zelda's a huge world that has a lot of vast areas of... Nothing, and feels pretty empty. Which makes it a bit more exciting when you find stuff, but...

I think I like the first more.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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ExThaNemesis posted...

You are absolutely in the wrong by withholding information and I will probably start to call you Smurf if you continue this behavior.

This though for real
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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redrocket_pub posted...

And not receiving tips would be the only way they'd even know they were doing something wrong in the first place.

...or you could do what others have suggested and call in a complaint so they actually know exactly what was wrong.

What if it was the driver's fault? The customer shouldn't have to guess.

Not to mention the fact that complaints that come after everything seemed fine get taken less seriously. It's like complaining about a meal after you ate it all. If you tip as if nothing happened, the complaint holds less weight.
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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lordloki12 posted...

MZero11 posted...

Tomba42 posted...

It's possible the person on the phone forgot to mention it

maybe actually read the topic where he mentioned several times he used an online entry box

We have already covered why that doesnt matter.

No, it does matter.

It's much more likely that the driver just didn't read the directions instead of somehow not ever receiving them. But even if he didn't receive them, it's not on the customer to just accept it. It happened twice, which means either

1. The driver never reads the directions and thus does not perform his job correctly, in which refusing to tip is valid

2. The directions never make it to the drivers, in which the only way that will change is if the drivers start complaining about it. And not receiving tips would be the only way they'd even know they were doing something wrong in the first place.

If it's the driver's fault, it's the driver's fault. If it's the restaurant's fault, it's the restaurant's fault. At no point should the customer just deal with it because "You don't know if they got the directions or not," as if "They didn't get the directions" is acceptable in the first place.
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SSJBKK20Vegito posted...

Inviso posted...

https://twitter.com/jayrosen_nyu/status/924738065612099584

That's pretty fucking awesome. Shuts down the bullshit "Hillary/Mueller/Russia Colluded!" propaganda the lying right-wing media is trying to push.

No it doesn't.

It's on the channel of the fakest of fake news...

So you can personally disprove the points made, then, since they're "fake?"
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HotDogButts posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

SSJBGenkiDama posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

The counter protestors in Charlottesville had a permit BTW FYI OUDK

So, they didn't. As widely reported that day and day after. Only after it became a thing where people were like "they didn't have a right to be there anyway" did the MSM lie and say they did. To push their narrative.

http://www.nbc29.com/story/35904026/charlottesville-man-applies-for-permits-to-counter-emancipation-park-rally-planned-for-august-12

So did the local NBC channel go back in time a month to lie about it, somehow?

why did you just link to an article that says the permits haven't been approved

Because the article he's claiming that is lying confirmed they were approved?

But fine.

http://www.nbc29.com/story/36099395/city-of-charlottesville-grants-two-permits-for-counterprotests-of-unite-the-right

Did the local NBC channel go back in time three days and then the day of to lie?

EDIT: It's a simple timeline. The alt right tried to claim they never even asked for the permits, which there is proof of. Then they tried to say the permits being approved was a lie. I'm filling in the gaps.
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SSJBGenkiDama posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

The counter protestors in Charlottesville had a permit BTW FYI OUDK

So, they didn't. As widely reported that day and day after. Only after it became a thing where people were like "they didn't have a right to be there anyway" did the MSM lie and say they did. To push their narrative.

http://www.nbc29.com/story/35904026/charlottesville-man-applies-for-permits-to-counter-emancipation-park-rally-planned-for-august-12

So did the local NBC channel go back in time a month to lie about it, somehow?
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Are the nightmare eels in Lake or only Seaside
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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ninkendo posted...

these nightmares

.......I am never going to Seaside Kingdom
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CelesMyUserName posted...

whoops I meant to respond to SEP

posting to twitter directly

Thanks!
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Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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So is there an easy way to upload pictures
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HotDogButts posted...

so you would prefer a man to die due to lack of medical attention than for an individual to drive through a crowd engaging in illegal behavior at a low speed?

StealThisSheen posted...

As for the latter, you didn't ask if it'd be legally justified specifically, so I need to clarify. No, it wouldn't be legally justified, but it'd be a bit more morally so.

What I think/prefer and what is legally acceptable are two entirely different things.
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HotDogButts posted...

So willfully engaging in an action that may reasonably result in undue harm to an individual/s (preventing travel in an emergency, for instance) is A-OK up until that situation actually presents itself? What about other potentially harmful behavior?

And assault with a deadly weapon becomes legally justified if you are trying to save the life of another individual? Interesting.

Standing in front of a door, stairwell, etc. is also "Willfully engaging in an action that may reasonably result in undue harm to individuals (preventing travel in an emergency, for instance)," so that happens literally all the time.

As for the latter, you didn't ask if it'd be legally justified specifically, so I need to clarify. No, it wouldn't be legally justified, but it'd be a bit more morally so.
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HotDogButts posted...

subject change:

if there was a gunshot victim in one of the cars being prevented from traversing the road and he died due to a lack of medical attention should the protestors be charged with manslaughter?

would the driver have the right to move through the crowd at a low speed due to the emergency at hand?

Probably if there's a viable way to do so

Yes, assuming the driver is actually making an attempt to let the situation be known. Shouldn't just start pushing through, though.
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FFDragon posted...

i would like to change my answer to 'the miz'

which is what I would name one if I found it

otherwise I think I would just call it a fuzzy caterpillar

You are the real hero, and don't let anyone say otherwise
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