Lurker > Lopen

Mundus

You forgot, Han? So you're claiming IGCD Corrik and Chang came to mind without referring to the player list then? Can you elaborate on why your mind went to them?

Kirby321 posted...

I mean, if you want to be petty, your correct reads mean jack shit if you can't convince people to follow them.

You can't just say "if people had TRUSTED and BELIEVED ME that game things would've gone differently." I mean, you're right. If we had followed you and special'd Ben on Day 1, things would've gone very differently that game, for all the wrong reasons :P

Blame yourself if nobody was listening to you that game. But again, that has nothing to do with this current game, so stuff it.

So here is the post where Kirby says he wants to stop discussing previous games

Then here are all the posts after Kirby says to drop it that Kirby made

Then here is Han saying Kirby is town

HanOfTheNekos posted...

##Vote: changmas

Kirby isn't Scum.

Try again.

Then here are two more of Kirby's posts talking about previous games.

Kirby321 posted...

Sod off. I have respect for your play in Baseball Musical Mafia, and I'll praise you and chang for burying Lopen that game and really kickstarting Town's momentum for the victory.

But for Nickelodeon Mafia, we lost that game because Ulti and Sbell turned on Lea for no damn good reason. Ben made a foolproof plan for victory, and nobody said anything against it, including Ulti and Sbell. Then Ben died and Ulti was suddenly extremely vocal about lynching Lea, which went completely against the plan Ben established.

You're delusional if you think Town not listening to you was the problem that game, and that is a hill I will die on.

Sorry, I should be wiser and stop being irrationally angry, but I'm still salty about how we lost that game, and I don't appreciate that you're trying to make it about yourself. Furthermore, I've insisted on tabling this discussion until after the game is over since it's not pertinent to this game, and instead of respecting that, you continue to provoke and mock me over it.

ANYWAY, that's a whole lot of nonsense that no one else besides Han and I care about. I'll make a separate post on what I have to say thus far about this game once I've cooled down.

Kirby321 posted...

It just feels like he's been really trying to get on my good side this game, even down to the whole "I think Kirby is town I think we just have some differences to work out" schtick that I'm pretty sure he also used in Simple Mafia. Am I the only one who is suspicious of Ben?

Here is Han saying how as scum Kirby would try to stop discussion of past games. (He did?)

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I don't think Kirby as Scum tries to tamp down on discussion of the past game like that. For one, Scum love talking about past games (you yourself are complicit in this). For two, it's an opportunity to post and be active and have it not have anything to do with the current game.

No, he didn't.

Kirby321 posted...

Does chang usually have strong opinions? I thought he got mislynched in Star Wars Mafia because he had a complete lack of strong opinions (granted, that was Chris manipulating everything, but still).

I don't think chang having a lack of strong opinions is an issue. I think his current opinion is completely lackluster, though.

So I just sped read the game again

Only saw Han doing it

Less interesting a lead. Still think the basic idea that MZero is likely scum fits, but was hoping there would be more meat on the bone. Especially after Chang got 3 votes. Was assuming one would be for inactivity, but doesn't seem that really happened?

One thing I did find interesting was that Han gave Kirby an awful lot of credit for "attempting to stop discussing previous games" but like... did that actually happen? Like Kirby said "I want to stop" but then continued to mention it Baseball Mafia and Nickelodeon and whatever else.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a scumtell to do this. What I'm saying is giving him credit for doing this when he hasn't actually done this doesn't feel genuine. It lends more cred to my "Han is attempting to pocket people" theory because it seems like a weird thing to jump to a hard townread on.

Devil's Advocate

Scumteam does not contain MZero, but contains mostly people who are in no position to call out lurking themselves. It is an interesting possibility.

Going to go give the lurker target posts a thorough look through. Solving MZero's complete lack of mention this game will be illuminating I think.

Btw Kirby this is actually a kinda neat feature on the board

If you quote a post like I did using the quote button if you click the blue text that says "HanOfTheNekos posted..." it shows the whole post being quoted. So you can at an instant see the time and the post numbers.

Only works if you're quoting a post from the same topic though.

Top of last page so like 3 hours ago. Not long.

It is. Anyway one step at a time kill Mzero first then go from there.

So I also feel like Han as scum would reverse psychology and want to rule of 3 in our faces over mentioning 4. And I think if Han did that he'd intentionally rule of 3 with 3 town and ignore MZero because "it's too obvious!!!"

But this isn't chiefly an argument for Han as scum, just explaining that Han is shrewd enough to exploit expectations of scum play and we shouldn't rule anything out on "too easy to avoid" basis. Do I think he would unintentionally avoid mentioning MZero? No. But do I think he would potentially do it fully aware of the implications for a mind game? Absolutely.

I also find it strange that town calling out lurky folk out of genuine interest would actually miss MZero. I know me, personally, when I want to check "who has not posted" my first instinct is to go to the playerlist at the beginning and look for people who I don't recall posting anything. MZero is hard to avoid when you do that.

I feel like Han tends to play hands off with scummates in general having been scum with him recently.

Anyway the key isn't whether Han is scum or not (I've got huge mixed feelings on Han's alignment right now), just that I feel like if MZero is NOT scum that scum would have targeted him by now, regardless of who his mates actually are.

##Unvote:
##Vote: Mzero

Proper emphasis given

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Chang is going to have to provide something real to avoid being in my Scummish tier

HanOfTheNekos posted...

IGCD and Corrik as well

Han scum equity skyrockets if MZero is scum

MZero hasn't posted nor been mentioned once

I believe he is probably scum taking in both of these facts at once

Chang For World Ruler

Chang was with me in the trenches last game until late game. I don't think it's unreasonable for him to trust a read I have and he's been transparent about why he's doing so. The chang train is really bad here.

Getting a nagging feeling Han is trying to pocket people by grilling them and backing off and calling them town before any meaningful pressure is generated

Kirby321 posted...

Am I the only one who is suspicious of Ben?

No.

Satan (Ghosts n Goblins)

I explained why I thought Kirby is scum

Han hasn't explain why he thinks Kirby is town and I feel he should

Why is Kirby town Han

Hobbes

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

What is wrong about it BCT looks super scummy?

All self-preservation, lack of answering questions about his vote on Han.

Lack of really anything.

He's basically lightning rodding himself with how he's supposedly self preserving. Lack of significant other content stems from being flustered, but to me it does read like he's at least trying.

Ultimately you need to look at scum motivation vs town motivation and reaction to being "caught." Either way he is playing "scummy" on paper but it's so shallowly scummy that it isn't particularly useful to determine alignment.

All we can really determine is he doesn't want to be lynched. That isn't inherently scummy. Trying to say he would only care about being lynched as scum is a disingenuous argument.

I'm not really sure that's what happened

So just to be clear, are you claiming that was your plan? To be obtuse and get Red to share more? Do you think he's shared enough?

You don't think asking for him to elaborate is a better way to do that?

ctesjbuvf posted...

Lopen did you not say you would back down on Sultan after he made some sense in the Yugi thing. What made him be your second most suspected again?

Did not like his attack on BCT mostly.

Disregarding Poppy that meant to say.

I blame my head thinking of Poppy Bros.

In any case, it seems you're more working the angle of red being scum, and disregarding Kirby

I don't really like the passive way you're doing it as an approach. Especially with red who is notoriously hard to lynch. It doesn't seem like you'd reach any useful end there. What is your goal with pointing out the post is worthless?

There are actually a lot of subtle differences between third party day 1 vs town day 1.

Third party's objective should be to lynch scum to look good and to reduce scum numbers, but third party should not want to drive a lynch-- if third party becomes too "obv town" they become a target for the mafia which they do not want.

So Poppy "playing differently" can matter or it can not matter, depending on what you're noticing. Hence why it's important to say "hey Red, HOW is Poppy playing differently" if you have any interest in gaining clarity with respect to Poppy.

Obellisk posted...

it's more pointing out the pointlessness of his post.

Are you building a case on red possibly being scum or are you trying to determine if Poppy is town?

Obellisk posted...

Well then I'm not sure why you are pointing out he's playing differently.

There are reasons third party plays different from scum and reasons third party plays different from town.

What is important is how he's playing differently. Which is something to ask red if the idea is to determine the alignment of poppy. If your objective is just to discredit red, then sure.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Role of 3

I know im town so one of the other 2 Ben or Kirby may be scum if Lopen is scum.

For now I actually feel good about lopen despite his reading me as scum.

Scum equity+

Han has been pursuing leads logically and aggressively. The second part is more important for me. Scum Han seems less aggressive generally.

Also when pressed for details on things he's made sense. I also really like that he isn't pushing on BCT here despite starting the pressure. It's such an easy lynch to make. I think Han doesn't play this way as scum regardless of alignment of BCT (for different reasons on each)

The lists are in alphabetical order not by conviction. Although for town that is pretty close to my order, and I feel a lot better about my town list than my scum list.

Kirby > Sultan > Ben for scum conviction currently.

PunishedBen posted...

You asked me directly which means you know its a personal read of mine. How do you weigh the value of that?

I think your read is either fabricated or too self-centered to be of value for me to doubt my own read.

Readz

Town
BCT
Han
Hb
Poppy
Red

???
Chang
Corrik
Ctes
IGCD
MZero
SBell

Scum
Ben
Kirby
Sultan

Yeah I'm not seeing the town read here

We should kill Kirby

##Unvote:
##Vote: Kirby

PunishedBen posted...

I dont think scum Kirby is bold enough to play this card on me and I think he'd be more fearful of me sniffing him out to get on my bad side early. He seems too confident he is onto to something to be scum here.

Is it all this or something else?

Do you think Kirby is town Ben

Let's kill Kirby.

Kirby321 posted...

Didn't think I needed to explicitly restate Han's argument, I guess?

You don't have to. I just think referring to it as "what Han said" when "what Han said" is just a few words is strange. It's less about a need and more about why you instinctively phrased it that way.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I like Ctes's explanations as well for the moment

So given he has only really explained anything to me, does that mean you suspected him for the same reason I did?

HanOfTheNekos posted...

It is incorrect, yes. Red is referring to me saying he's always a good lynch, which, since mafia picked back up with Chris's experimental mafia where we were scum together, has been true in every single game except for 1.

Me thinking Red is always a good lynch is not directly related to whether I think he's scum or not.

But right now he strikes me more Townish.

This is a good answer.

Kirby321 posted...

Han's argument is that BCT sounds like he's trying to seem towny rather than having legitimate thoughts. I just feel like I see that argument every game and don't particularly think it's strong, though to Han's credit, he did provide a specific example. And I can see where he's coming from with that post, but I don't think it's a strong enough point to warrant a lynch train.

See so.. to me, it's less a "train of thought" and more "a single point" which is why I wanted you to summarize. Perhaps maybe you had dived into BCT's posts and considered whether Han was correct about BCT trying to appear townish. When I asked, you actually didn't summarize as much as restate the entire argument he had made.

Which begs the question why not just say what Han's play on BCT was instead of referring to it as a "train of thought" since it really is that simple to say. Say "I don't necessarily agree BCT is trying to seem towny" rather than "I don't necessarily agree with Han's train of thought"

Why? It feels like it's because you want to stress that Han has ownership of it. It feels like something scum Kirby might do on a town BCT lynch to set up pressure on Han tomorrow.

Kirby321 posted...

I don't necessarily agree with Han's train of thought on BCT, but it's worth pursuing just to see what happens.

Can you explain Han's train of thought on BCT and what you do and don't agree with?

red13n posted...

Why are we asking a question that always has the same answer

Does it? I feel like that's incorrect.

Han you think red is scum?

PoppyTheNinja posted...

sultan has 0 votes, doesn't seem likely to me scum backs away that quickly, this all feels pretty reachy to me

dunno it's like you're conflating not liking the action of how ctes handled his sultan read with it being scummy. imo.

He just saw me tunnel Sultan into oblivion last game. Not unreasonable to think I might attempt to do it again.

I assume he's faking content by suspecting Sultan, or faking logic to back off of Sultan

The key here is what is causing his reads to form and move around. They don't feel like someone who is thinking they feel like someone putting a show on.

Tony Hawk

The real Cinderella run right here

Note Ctes comma spliced too. Very scummy.