Lurker > wallmasterz

Dumey was on jc with some good thoughts going hmmm and less than 10 minutes later ctes comes forward. Interesting.

Jesus

Last thing on ctes for now - I think theres no reason to avoid a flavor claim if youre town. This is one thing I havent even mentioned that makes me suspect you. My initial thought was, is there no good character that fits vig on the safe list or something?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I dont currently think ctes and Dumey are both scum but I am trying to not be so focused on ctes, and considering a world where hes town means I do consider Dumey being godfather neighborizer or something a reasonable possibility

Ctes I am not 100% convinced youre scum. But I know Im not scum. And theres a lot of things you have said or done that in and of themselves dont mean youre scum, but it feels like they add up to a lot. Like when ulti said hey, maybe all scum is variants, you were like that would be bad meta. Just thats not how I would respond at all. Then you admitted last game had questionable meta in favor of town, but said your point still stands.

If that was me I wouldve said hey Im blah blah flavor claim, Town vigilante. And I know not all scum are variants because Im evidence of it. How you responded reads like a scum slip youd just walk back by saying well of course I was just speaking hypothetically to tell you why ulti is wrong and this cant be the case because its bad meta.

I dunno. Im leaving my vote on you ctes but Ill hunt scum elsewhere for now.

Lea, lets say youre not scum. How open are you to the possibility one of Han and Dumey is scum? And if you had to hammer today and lynch one, who would it be?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


lmao

One thing Dumey did I found interesting was offering to hammer Isquen in case he was a bomb. I mean if youre scum, you know its harmless and in fact helping to achieve your goal. It feels like something scum would do trying to earn town points.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Of Mice and Ben

ctesjbuvf posted...

Question for everyone. Why does Wall, who attacks Ulti for not answering to my questions day 2, continue to ignore my questions to him again and again?

I am not trying to ignore you. I think its evident Im not ignoring you even if Ive missed a question along the way. I am trying to juggle work, family and keeping up with this game. I think youre scum and I feel like youre trying to keep me busy defending myself instead of building a case against you. Yet I am still trying to answer your questions and its only fair to do so. I still dont understand why my response about jc and the list wasnt good enough for you and I also admitted Im capable of being wrong.

Just going to leave this here and invite everyone to read it again.

8.357 Every other power role, EVERY SINGLE ONE, is a variant.

Vig being a normal thing stands out like a tumor, and I think Wall just stumbled onto why. ctes as scum fakeclaimed it before knowing all of towns roles are variants.

Its also a literal perfect fake claim, because no one would have questioned shooting Death there. Well done, ctes. (Ulti)

8.367 All power roles being variants is some pretty bad meta stuff. (Ctes)

8.378 You're implying a pretty huge scum trap from hosts side, that's not clever game design. (Ctes)

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Because I had zero clue what to do with Chris/death/Han I decided to use my vote to see how Sultan might react. Having been suspicious of ulti all day I thought it was odd he made a huge deal of ultis vote on him then unvoted. Sultan voting and unvoting ulti made me wonder if there was some bussing going on between the two. Thwarting anyone and joining or hindering any tag team efforts wasnt on my radar, to be honest.

What part of your question do you feel like I didnt address? How Isquen flipping town shouldve widened my PoE?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Yeah, my whole approach to the end of d1 had to do with feeling completely unsure of who to vote for among Han, Death and Chris. I didnt want to cast what mightve been the deciding vote on a whim. It was my first (in game) day playing and I suspected ulti, then sultan was the chosen one for Chris and I turned my attention to sultan. I wanted to see if sultan would move his vote to ulti if he felt like he wouldnt be alone, but I took too long catching up with the reading and there was maybe 5 minutes until end of day by the time I posted.

This was from ctes

First of all, JC and Isquen were in no way linked, if anything Isquen flipping town should just make your PoE wider, not somehow completely remove anyone from it.

But your first sentence there gives me reason to be concerned. You had supposedly already reread that whole thing and then reading it for a third time knowing Isquen's alignment makes you not just feel better about him, but move him all the way to confirmed tier. Yet JC's list actually does not appear until a bit into topic 2 and he's being attacked for it for the rest of the topic, so how is your first sentence not you lying?

Jcs list where he said he liked mzero engaging in a proper discussion while here got a lot of negative attention. When I went back and re-read, I saw the posts by mzero and felt the negativity was overblown. But yes I used isquen and perhaps shouldve said mzero for clarity.

I also said jcs drive to solve the game has won me over and I agree with ulti, if hes scum then gg. But I believe his lazy tracker claim, I believe he got misdirected and I believe he scanned me all of which make me view him as more town. I brought up the list to address one of the early red flags around jc.

I would have to go back and look, I honestly believed jc did a list in t1 but even if its t2, I already said I got a little ways into t2. Im reading this stuff in the middle of the night while my son is awake. I have never lied during this game but Im more than l willing to admit I might have made a mistake.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Other than the one you admitted was a good reason?

Why did you not respond to my post that called you out for lying to me

I said it was your best defense. I dont recall saying it was a good reason, and I think the bad evidence against you far outweighs the good. Ill go back and reply to the lying one, hang on

Im not locked in on ctes but he hasnt given me a good reason to move my vote yet either.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Don't ask me a question I already made my stance clear on instead of answering why you think those two roles are exclusive.

Sure they could co-exist. But if bp doc is already overpowered to begin with to the point you are arguing it (probably) doesnt exist, i dont see why its a bad assumption on my part to think Town doesnt have bp doc and vig in a game with probably four scum to start.

to ctes

You still never seemed to weigh in that your case against me builds on the premise of purposely making a horrible scum n1 playAND me risking not getting counterclaimed by an actual vig.

Not really a horrible play if it 1) kills town, 2) falsely confirms scum as town. I am still on the fence about Dumey but he made the point of questioning you that he was one of deaths biggest critics and he thought Chris flipping scum made death look very Town. So its debatable if death even made as good a mislynch candidate anymore.

as for the counterclaim, yeah it is a ballsy move. Its your best defense, but it doesnt mean your town. Havent gotten that far looking back yet but I recall we spent a while pondering the question before you claimed, and the whole bus driver/redirect thing easily couldve been floated to fish for anyone hinting at town vig or even outright claiming it.

You still never seemed to weigh in that your case against me builds on the premise of purposely making a horrible scum n1 play AND me risking not getting counterclaimed by an actual vig.

Not really a horrible play if it 1) kills town, 2) falsely confirms scum as town. I am still on the fence about Dumey but he made the point of questioning you that he was one of deaths biggest critics and he thought Chris flipping scum made death look very Town. So its debatable if death even made as good a mislynch candidate anymore.

as for the counterclaim, yeah it is a ballsy move. Its your best defense, but it doesnt mean your town. Havent gotten that far looking back yet but I recall we spent a while pondering the question before you claimed, and the whole bus driver/redirect thing easily couldve been floated to fish for anyone hinting at town vig or even outright claiming it.

ctesjbuvf posted...

No, you're doing the same thing as yesterday by ignoring logical aspects that don't fit your narrative while creating odd things are fit your narrative and selling them as logic. If you're believing BP + doctor to begin with (which isn't that logical) why in the world would a town vig make that any more or less likely to exist. That's not common sense. You still never seemed to weigh in that your case against me builds on the premise of purposely making a horrible scum n1 play AND me risking not getting counterclaimed by an actual vig. One needs to consider the whole thing to solve the game and most of your posts reads as if you're not doing that.

At this point JC is the only one that I'm not willing to consider, but Ulti is close to that. I have felt good about basically everyone else so somewhere someone has to be tricking me.

I dislike when people argue that less scum than the reasonable number based on game size, it has let town to lose a few times and it's a reasonable case against Han. Though back when I won f*** 2022 mafia I'm pretty sure town did this and we just allowed it to coast us to victory. If it's actually Han, I think the stunt he pulled with me yesterday was a huge dick move, so I hope not.

By PoE I'm gonna have to say it's in you, Ben, Sultan and one of Dumey/Lea (seriously doubt it's both).

Its not common sense to think if op bulletproof doc exists, theres not a town vig attached?

If ulti is doc and not bp then scum has not fired at him at all. In a game where, if you are town ctes, scum targeted crescent, crescent, jc and never bothered shooting ulti. If bp doc is so farfetched why would scum go after town power ulti can protect instead of ulti who is a sure shot because he cant protect himself. Make it make sense!

Ninjad by Han

PunishedBen posted...

I'm completely assuming they shot at JC on the basis that the BP part of the BP doctor claim is fake. But whether it is or isnt doesnt matter to what I think of Ulti, because the game has to have protection. And Ulti being scum would require the game to both have none and for scum to know that they have none in order to be comfortable claiming it so early. And then what, no kill today just to prove it further? Unnecessary I think since Ulti wasnt getting lynch any time soon.

why would scum shoot at jc instead of vulnerable doctor?

I think the most vocal person by far about ctes shooting death clearing ctes was Han. He even made a list with the tier scum shooting death is dumb lol

Ctes, you were an extremely unlikely candidate to be (mis)lynched d2. Shooting n1 was very anti town. Bulletproof doctor + town vig is extremely unlikely to exist, and logic dictates we have a bp doc. If youre town, hopefully theres no hard feelings, but you have to see where common sense leads us to you.

##Vote: Ctes

UltimaterializerX posted...

Justins action was swapped on night 2, I think? He tried scanning Andy and it got swapped to me. He saw me move.

I assume the redirect allowed scum to pick an individual to redirect, and an individual to redirect their action to

ctesjbuvf posted...

Ah alright, so you've only reread topic 1 so far then?

Part of 2. I have re-read everything up to maybe 6-7 once but that was before isquen flipped town

ctesjbuvf posted...

I think the most reasonable thing to do is look at everyone's interactions with Sheep and Isquen actually. We have just had two days of literally everyone agreeing on the lynch.

Pretend you have to try solving the game right now. You have to pick the remaining scum. Who is it and why?

PunishedBen posted...

I am better now and also found a way to play at work. I am remoted into my home computer and using that to access gamefaqs LOL

lol. Love it

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Fair, that explains d3. Apologies.

Why are you convinced Han is not scum? And if you think Im scum fire away?

ctesjbuvf posted...

Did you reread overnight?

I tried but got into t2 before I was too tired to finish. I will keep going at some point. trying to understand whats going on now in the aftermath of no one dying last night is a bigger priority

Remaining scum is seemingly ctes and 2/3rds of Han, Lea and Dumey. Ive been wondering if Dumey was godfather neighborizer or something but Im not really thrilled by most of what we are seeing from d3-d4 Lea

ctesjbuvf posted...

Hey Wall, why did JC go from possible scum to your top town tier?

after reading t1 I felt the argument against jc for his list was even weaker than it seemed before. Also supported by isquen flipping town. Plus I dont agree with all his thought process but I just feel so much sincerity in his efforts to solve this game.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Alright Wall, I gotta know. Youve been needling me all game and now youre playing nice. Why the change?

Im surprised youre asking, tbh. I am looking to solve the game and trying to work from the most logical building blocks forward. I believe there is a doctor in this game. I am putting a lot of trust in this being the case. If Im wrong, ulti you got extremely lucky with a fake claim and Ill accept the L. If anyone died other than you n3, I was going to come in guns blazing after you. Anyone who thinks it through like I have knows there was a 99% chance you end up dead or no one dies n3. The alternative is theres no doctor and youre lucky af scum covering your tracks but it only makes sense to move forward on the 99% probability.

UltimaterializerX posted...

If ctes is town, 3 scum left. If hes scum, 2 scum left.

lol

The other possibility I thought about is there was 5 scum, which is crazy but not impossible since we got bp doc. There would be 4 scum left and scum would probably especially annoyed because they thought the game would end after n3. But I doubt this and I think scum would be more open to the bp doc claim than they were if this was the case.

ctesjbuvf posted...

You're implying a pretty huge scum trap from hosts side, that's not clever game design.

Last game all town other than Mario and Luigi was a star spirit or party member but Gourmet Guy was still on the safe list. I dont recall any complaints then.

I do get scum being annoyed this am because it sounds like you guys talked yourself into being positive ultis bp claim was bs and you just found out it isnt.

PunishedBen posted...

Here's some very loose reads based on things I remember or just saw recently on the last few pages.

3- Han. SCUM? Unless literally he is the one who got protected last night. Very possible as well and I'm about to be very wrong.

Ben considering how little of the game you had read when you posted this, what made you so sure of Han being scum? And why would him being saved last night be the only exception?

To be clear not saying I think Lea and Dumey are both scum. Rather, I believe the last scummate is there.

My current view of things

Town

Wall
Ulti
JC

Sultan
Ben

Lea
Dumey

Han
Ctes

Scum

ctesjbuvf posted...

All power roles being variants is some pretty bad meta stuff.

How so? I happen to think its pretty clever game design.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

we have to keep in mind that that theory requires Scum to willingly aim at a vanilla as well. And if they didn't redirect you or JC last night, then it means they didn't on N1, which makes the Death shot worse.

We already established the point would be killing town and trying to confirm ctes town at the same time, so scum going for vanilla isnt farfetched there. I mean correct me if Im wrong, but no one other than death knew for certain death was vanilla when he was killed.

And for the people talking about how unbelievable bp doctor is, or was, we are running out of valid explanations for it not to exist. The first requirement for it not to exist is this game of mafia has no doctor when (meta alert) the source of the games theme literally has a character named the doctor. Lol.

ctes you realize you being vig means town has a bulletproof doctor and an extra kill, right?

UltimaterializerX posted...

Huh. I think you figured it out.

##Unvote
##Vote: ctes

Every other power role, EVERY SINGLE ONE, is a variant.

Vig being a normal thing stands out like a tumor, and I think Wall just stumbled onto why. ctes as scum fakeclaimed it before knowing all of towns roles are variants.

Its also a literal perfect fake claim, because no one would have questioned shooting Death there. Well done, ctes.

Good stuff ulti. I think we should wait and hear from sultan and Dumey before we continue barking up this tree, just to get it on the record. Both already claimed so I cant imagine itll be an issue.

Another thing. The existence of a scum Jack makes some sense. N1 either 1) ctes is scum and death was the regular scum target or 2) they targeted both crescent and death. Ulti saved crescent and the kill on death was some kind of EK.

N2, jc got redirected from bct to ulti. I believe scum redirect might be a one time thing as well, which is why jc didnt get redirected last night when he scanned me. The one-time redirect probably allows the user to choose someone whose actions they want to redirect, and they chose the known tracker (pretty sure jc claimed d2). Someone, I dont remember who, proposed scum targeted bct to have any actions directed at bct redirected. To be clear I dont think that person is necessarily scum, but I do think they were mistaken.

Sultan, Dumey, can you please remind us of your full role title?

ctesjbuvf posted...

It's pretty hard to figure out a scum team that just shoots at the most obvious target every day and somehow unblockable the second night. I have the whole time been working under the idea that BP+Doctor is a bs role yet Ulti keeps being alive.

Does the scum team fear redirection on n3 to the point of not shooting at all? That's a stretch right.

Have you accepted bp doctor factually being a thing at this point? If you havent totally accepted it Id like to hear your explanation for how its possible.

Chaeix posted...

i think that's kind of han's point as why it makes less sense now

ulti seems to be bp based off of the night action logic
ulti is also an uncountered doctor

so we are grappling with the possibility of overwhelming evidence of a role that doesn't make sense to exist in a balanced setup

Look at most of other town power claims: drunk, lazy tracker, cop (I believe miller?), neighborizer. Only vig is in a league of its own. Ill consider any possibility but believing this game has an op doctor and somewhat nerfed rest of town feels more believable than there being no doctor in this game, or ulti being doctor but not bp and yet somehow still alive after three nights when he claimed doctor uncountered on d1.

I will finish re-reading with as open a mind as possible but as things stand right now I find Han with the, if youre scum, extremely unenviable position of being squarely in the sights of the most confirmed town person in the game.

What Im getting at is if ulti is doctor but not bulletproof, he could save jc, but he couldnt save himself. There was no reason to believe town could redirect protection from a rando back to ulti. So it makes no sense for scum to gun for town motion detector who might get saved by doctor, when they could eliminate the doctor from the game with virtual certainty.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

They cannot save themself correct.

If bulletproof doc is too powerful and illogical and definitely not a role in this game, why is ulti still alive? I mean, Ill play along with scum prioritizing killing crescent. But is it really more important to kill a lazy tracker than the town doctor? I think scum mustve tested ultis claim either n1 or n3. If you know you can kill town power and doctor cant save themselves and half the damn game claimed town power and none of those townies (and townies) claimed redirect, I cant imagine scum not just shooting the doctor.

Ah sorry Han, just read about your commitment. You do what you need to do. Youre not getting lynched tonight.

Han, and everyone really, how does doctor typically work on b8? Am I right in assuming doctors cant save themselves, or no?