Current Events > man Souls fans are something else. it's never enough for them

(+) Yeah! (+)

don't get me wrong, it's a dying minority at this point. but i came across a comment on a post of someone happy about their win against Fire Giant. the person in question used two summons and comet azur

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/f/fe58c92d.png
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/c/cb1efd75.jpg

and man that shit chaps my britches so fucking much. so i piped up with "the goal is to win, challenge varies from person to person. some people need level 1 to struggle, some people struggle with all tools possible"

got told i didnt do a level 1 run right since i killed radahn with an optimized build (even though i didnt do any research or use radagons soreseal for the 20 free levels)

what possesses these people?

is it (ironically) insecurity?

If you touched the controller, you made it too easy for yourself.

KainWind posted...

If you touched the controller, you made it too easy for yourself.

ive got a backup save permanently at Consort. got half a mind to fist-only him at level 1.

It's people who don't understand that people enjoy games for different reasons. I personally don't give two fucks about beating some grand challenge, my enjoyment of games comes from exploration and discovery.

It's why I wish I could enjoy the Souls games, because the worlds and monsters are designed quite well, but I hate the emphasis on it being hard as balls

Dungeater posted...

don't get me wrong, it's a dying minority at this point

It is not.

The Souls fanbase has more than earned its toxic reputation. Apologists who don't want to be associated with it don't change that. Minority? Maybe, but not as small as you think. Dying? Absolutely not.

The Souls fanbase treats the games as a dick measuring contest, and has since Demon Souls. It's not changing.

SAlYAN posted...

It is not.

It absolutely is, I literally spend all day every day on Souls forums lol

Elden Ring flipped the script completely

Man. Some people are just dicks about this series.

Dungeater posted...

It absolutely is, I literally spend all day every day on Souls forums lol

Elden Ring flipped the script completely

Which is why when Radahn was nerfed, a huge chunk of the fanbase went to war about fromsoft "casualizing" the game. Or when SOTE came out, insulting everyone for critiquing the difficulty. Or when Scadu fragments were buffed, raving about how they beat the game pre-buff. Or when the final boss was needed, again raving about how they were better by winning pre-nerf. Or when Nightreign came out, calling all the people who dislike it bad players who don't have any friends.

I've already conceded its a minority. But it is not dying, by any means. They are always yhere, in droves, every single time any single possible patch, change, or new release happens. And there are always at least a few in every thread about the game. It is not dying, not even close.

I get that you like your community a lot, but your proximity to it probably works more against you than for you. Not because you're part of the toxicity, but because you're either desensitized to it, or insulated in subcommunities.

If you die once in a Souls game, you should never play it again. Respawns are for babies. Only Real Hard-core Gamers beat the game on their very first try!

Dungeater posted...

It absolutely is, I literally spend all day every day on Souls forums lol

Elden Ring flipped the script completely

Let's test this theory.

*Clears throat*

FromSoft should add an easy mode to their games.

SAlYAN posted...

Which

I'll be honest man, I don't consider you a serious person. You don't really seem on it, so I'm not gonna read this post. It's nothing personal, I just don't care for reading wrong things people dunning kruger themselves into. Like there's an objective wrongness here, and if someone is gonna argue against that then i'm not gonna waste my time

no hard feelings tho

Umbreon posted...

If you die once in a Souls game, you should never play it again. Respawns are for babies. Only Real Hard-core Gamers beat the game on their very first try!

i'm actually workin on a no-death run

ellis123 posted...

Let's test this theory.

*Clears throat*

FromSoft should add an easy mode to their games.

they added easy mode to elden ring and it was their most wildly successful game by an enormous amount

Dungeater posted...

I'll be honest man, I don't consider you a serious person. You don't really seem on it, so I'm not gonna read this post. It's nothing personal, I just don't care for reading wrong things people dunning kruger themselves into. Like there's an objective wrongness here, and if someone is gonna argue against that then i'm not gonna waste my time

no hard feelings tho

No worries. I hereby retract the final sentence of my post.

SAlYAN posted...

It is not.

The Souls fanbase has more than earned its toxic reputation. Apologists who don't want to be associated with it don't change that. Minority? Maybe, but not as small as you think. Dying? Absolutely not.

The Souls fanbase treats the games as a dick measuring contest, and has since Demon Souls. It's not changing.

Thats always how PVP in anygame works

vycebrand2 posted...

Thats always how PVP in anygame works

This topic is about a PvE fight.

i am pro-difficulty options for from games

who gives a shit if you beat malenia at level 1 with donkey kong bingos while blind folded and falling from a scyscraper while drowning or at level 500 with tiche and cheese builds

i certainly don't, you shouldn't either as it has no effect on you, none. them doing whatever doesn't change how you did it.

the point is to win, and you did, good job keep going

ConfusedTorchic posted...

i am pro-difficulty options for from games

who gives a shit if you beat malenia at level 1 with donkey kong bingos while blind folded and falling from a scyscraper while drowning or at level 500 with tiche and cheese builds

i certainly don't, you shouldn't either as it has no effect on you, none. them doing whatever doesn't change how you did it.

that's what i try to tell these people. someone else's win doesnt undermine yours. it's not a zero sum game, why would it work like that? i truly dont understand these people. it's about moving forward at your own pace in your own way

I personally don't mind either way. Miyazaki and team don't want difficulty options, so shrug. I don't think it needs to be for everyone. If they include difficulty options, also cool

LightSnake posted...

I personally don't mind either way. Miyazaki and team don't want difficulty options, so shrug. I don't think it needs to be for everyone. If they include difficulty options, also cool

i think the "difficulty options" discussion is a misdirect, because these games have always had them, elden ring most of all

not really, certainly not in the traditional sense that 100% of people advocating for mean

that's why i called it a misdirect. maybe the wrong word. but i dont know what the meaningful difference to people is between it outright going "this is easy mode" and going "here, use these"

R.l.P

There's definitely ways to make the game easier. I just thinking they mean a mode of game where you innately do more damage, can take more hits, enemies are slower/dumber, etc.

To be fair, there are bits of the Souls games where Miyazaki and co are being deliberately unfair. Some of those traps can be brutal.

Dungeater posted...

that's why i called it a misdirect. maybe the wrong word. but i dont know what the meaningful difference to people is between it outright going "this is easy mode" and going "here, use these"

one would be an actual easy mode set by the developers that fundamentally changes scaling and health pools, while the other is giving suggestions to people to make things slightly easier within the constraints of the game

like me suggesting someone use rivers of blood pre-nerf and saying it enables easy mode for a while doesn't constitute any changes to the game overall

ellis123 posted...

Let's test this theory.

*Clears throat*

FromSoft should add an easy mode to their games.

you would need to make a seperate topic for that to work

ConfusedTorchic posted...

one would be an actual easy mode set by the developers that fundamentally changes scaling and health pools, while the other is giving suggestions to people to make things slightly easier within the constraints of the game

like me suggesting someone use rivers of blood pre-nerf and saying it enables easy mode for a while doesn't constitute any changes to the game overall

yea no i know what some are asking for, i just don't know how that's functionally different from just increasing their stats themselves via grabbing some souls

like i'm not one to say "play this weapon, thats the easy mode" because thats just pigeonholing someone into a build. but farming a few enemies for 20 minutes to get some quick levels allows one to overlevel

wait, how did the topic become this?

Dungeater posted...

i think the "difficulty options" discussion is a misdirect, because these games have always had them, elden ring most of all

Yes. But:

1. Figuring out a way to break it when the developers probably didnt intend you to (e.g., getting the spirits in the forest to jump off a cliff ad infinitum in DS1 to kill them over and over for massive XP), you feel clever and accomplished, or theres at least an argument to.
2. Judging by the way difficulty options work in every other game ever, I dont want them going anywhere near basically any game, especially From ones. Hard is more aptly called tedious in many games, as the only thing it does it make enemies meat shields who do more damage. Tales of Arise is the exemplar. Difficulty levels promote lazy number tweak balancing that adds no challenge or complexity at all.

Id rather games just be easy or hard and not have difficulty levels. I like easy games. I like hard games. I dont like meaningless number tweak distinctions that dont really do anything but make fights take longer when the devs could do things like make the AI more complex, make the patterns more complex, etc.

The only exception I can think of is when you dont get the full experience except on the highest difficulty, like in the original Thief games and GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, etc. I did like that, because it gave a reason to replay levels on the highest difficulty to see all the mission objectives etc.

At the end of the day, Miyazaki believes the difficulty are an intrinsic part of his games' identity and wants people to figure it out like a puzzle.

That's honestly that.

i watch a lot of souls streamers on twitch who do insane hitless runs, speedruns or challenge runs who never gate keep or make casual players feel bad for how they play. it's only losers that think they're god gamers for killing a boss melee only that rail on people for summoning or using magic. it makes the whole community look bad when in reality, it's much more supportive and chill.

Some people just have to suck the fun out of everything and rain on other people's parade, in video games and sadly real life as well. And frankly, where's the line on "using tools that exist in the game invalidates your experience"? Is it summoning phantoms? Using some weapon that's better than another? Should everyone have to play at level 1 and never get hit? Are you really even playing the game if you're not using a banana controller?

I have mixed feelings about difficulty options, a lot of games implement them kind of poorly; sometimes normal is absurdly easy, and others hard is a joyless grind, and I'm very often unclear what the intended difficulty actually is. I don't feel strongly enough to argue against them being included because it ultimately doesn't really matter, but I do kind of appreciate there being a single difficulty and knowing that my experience is the same as everyone else's, at least initially.

PraetorXyn posted...

Yes. But:
1. Figuring out a way to break it when the developers probably didnt intend you to (e.g., getting the spirits in the forest to jump off a cliff ad infinitum in DS1 to kill the mover and over for massive XP), you feel clever and accomplished, or theres at least an argument to.
2. Judging by the way difficulty options work in every other game ever, I dont want them going anywhere near basically any game, especially From ones. Hard is more aptly called tedious in many games, as the only thing it does it make enemies meat shields who do more damage. Tales of Arise is the exemplar. Difficulty levels promote lazy number tweak balancing that adds no challenge or complexity at all.
Id rather games just be easy or hard and not have difficulty levels. I like easy games. I like hard games. I dont like meaningless number tweak distinctions that dont really do anything but make fights take longer when the devs could do things like make the AI more complex, make the patterns more complex, etc.

The only exception I can think of is when you dont get the full experience except on the highest difficulty, like in the original Thief games and GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, etc. I did like that, because it gave a reason to replay levels on the highest difficulty difficulty to see all the mission objectives etc.

i will say - adding difficulty modes definitely broke Lies of P pretty severely for Overture

i'm of the mind that the way Fromsoftware does it is rewarding (by design) and engaging, and makes for a much more solidly put-together game. but if they do add it, im not gonna whine about it

DipDipDiver posted...

It's people who don't understand that people enjoy games for different reasons. I personally don't give two fucks about beating some grand challenge, my enjoyment of games comes from exploration and discovery.

It's why I wish I could enjoy the Souls games, because the worlds and monsters are designed quite well, but I hate the emphasis on it being hard as balls

Same. I love exploring cool worlds, but I hate games being hard for the sake of being hard (also hate not being able to animation cancel).

I tried a Souls like that was a free PS Plus without knowing it was a Souls like. Immediately noped out when a regular enemy hit me for like 2/3 of my health bar with one hit. I'll never shit on other people for enjoying those types of games, but fuck that, not for me lol

Its what happens when people make video games their whole identity in life. game difficulty, fanboying, etc.

When it comes to elden ring I just so happened to start off with the samurai archtype (I wanted the katana asap, and it already had a stat spread geared towards the dexterity and arcane play style I was aiming for. Bows also ended up being really good imo), and already determined beforehand I wanted to be a katana and bow using arcane stat/bleed using dork (I did the exact same character in dark souls 3 and bloodborne). It just so happens that bleed ending up being damn good in elden ring and so most of the bosses I fought were stomps in my favor (like the infamous godskin duo or whatever, that was a one and done for me lol). Yep, I used my bloody slash ash of war when I found it, my best buddy ash tear when I eventually got it and was using the rivers of blood when I finally got to that sidequest.

I enjoyed my time through elden ring. If some random peeps on reddit, this website, or anywhere else feels players like me and that topic creator in the reddit picture did not truly experience the game or played the way they wanted me to then tough titty. They can go cry about it in the shower, lol.

LightSnake posted...

At the end of the day, Miyazaki believes the difficulty are an intrinsic part of his games' identity and wants people to figure it out like a puzzle.

That's honestly that.

Nah, that just means we can't call the police on them or break down the door and force them to do it.

It in no way means we can't talk about wanting it, even in persuasive terms like "needs" and "should."

Anyone's entitled to an opinion on that, but I feel Miyazaki has conclusively closed the door

I look up and cheese the hell out of Souls bosses, no regrets

Dungeater posted...

i will say - adding difficulty modes definitely broke Lies of P pretty severely for Overture

i'm of the mind that the way Fromsoftware does it is rewarding (by design) and engaging, and makes for a much more solidly put-together game. but if they do add it, im not gonna whine about it

Yes. Theyre basically as easy or as hard as you want them to be.

DS1 is trivial to break if you start with the Master Key. Havent played 2 and 3 yet.

Bloodborne is kind of it depends on how stubborn you are. I wanted to do a Pure Bloodtinge build, so I refused to put a single point into Strength or Dexterity other than the minimum required for the weapons I wanted to use. This made the game massively harder until I beat Cainhurst and got the Chikage, but it made it way easier after I got it, and I felt that was my reward for the early suffering when I had no weapon that scaled off my primary stat.

In Sekiro, you have to git gud. I made a backup of my save at the end of the first level and just kept restoring it and trying again until I could beat Genichiro. After that, I didnt have much trouble with the rest of the game.

Elden Ring I broke on purpose, because its open world and I could.

NoxObscuras posted...

I tried a Souls like that was a free PS Plus without knowing it was a Souls like. Immediately noped out when a regular enemy hit me for like 2/3 of my health bar with one hit. I'll never shit on other people for enjoying those types of games, but fuck that, not for me lol

i would not even mind the high difficulty of these games if they di dnot just throw you into the deep end

I like difficulty, but it's balanced against the fact that I won't play a character that I think doesn't look cool (subjective obviously) or a build that isn't fun.

case in point, I probably won't ever do a RL1 run because I want to wear cool looking armor and use fun weapons.

621 posted...

I like difficulty, but it's balanced against the fact that I won't play a character that I doesn't look cool (subjective obviously) or a build that isn't fun.

case in point, I probably won't ever do a RL1 run because I want to wear cool looking armor and use fun weapons.

That too. I dont like the idea of arbitrary challenges personally. I will do it if I get something out of it.

For example, in FF6, due to you getting your stat bonuses on level up, if you want to min/max, you have to try and do a LLG (Low-Level Game) at least until the point where you have an Esper that gives max stat bonuses for Magic, Vigor, Speed, HP, and MP (though there is some flexibility on the latter depending on version). The game doesnt intend for you to do that, so its quite challenging at times and kind of fun, but I would only do it because it means my endgame stats will be higher than if I dont. Nevermind that the game is stupidly easy if played regular and there being no need to min/max at all.

Scorsese2002 posted...

I look up and cheese the hell out of Souls bosses, no regrets

And that's a good thing because you are interacting with the community. This breeds discussion and makes the game community come together, talking strats, talking about what part they found bullshit, etc.

Someone found a boss weakness or cheese stratergy, posted it online others used it and shared how they beat him.

It's the diffrence between.
"I can't beat boss #3! He attacks too fast and I don't do enougth damage."
"Try fire he's weak to it."
"Nah just use bleed he has a small health pool."
"I found a 100% pysical shield works well because all his attacks are physical."
"Dude you can break his ai by standing here!"

Vs a game that tries to ehm "fix" the diffculty.

"I couldn't beat boss #3, so I turned the diffculty down and beat him.... Any one want to talk about the game... Hello?"

I would argue that one of the most important aspects of an easy mode is how easy it is to intuit.

It's the primary reason why the "souls games HAVE an easy mode" argument never held water, for me. If accessing your "easy mode" requires going online, researching specific builds, bum-rushing areas out-of-sequence to get certain items, fighting midgame bosses to get the equipment behind them, looking up further out-of-sequence routes to inorganically rush upgrade materials, grind for hours to get the stats to actually equip all this shiny new stuff, etc... can it even be called an "easy mode" at that point? Sure, maybe you can dogwalk the game afterward, but the players who need/want an easy mode checked out somewhere around step 2. Because that sort of game breaking/metagaming is the sort of thing only players who are already deeply invested in the game will care to do.

It's like saying Final Fantasy has an easy mode - juat abuse the Peninsula of Power. It's not the same thing, and everybody fucking knows it.

havean776 posted...

And that's a good thing because you are interacting with the community. This breeds discussion and makes the game community come together, talking strats, talking about what part they found bullshit, etc.

Someone found a boss weakness or cheese stratergy, posted it online others used it and shared how they beat him.

It's the diffrence between.
"I can't beat boss #3! He attacks too fast and I don't do enougth damage."
"Try fire he's weak to it."
"Nah just use bleed he has a small health pool."
"I found a 100% pysical shield works well because all his attacks are physical."
"Dude you can break his ai by standing here!"

Vs a game that tries to ehm "fix" the diffculty.

"I couldn't beat boss #3, so I turned the diffculty down and beat him.... Any one want to talk about the game... Hello?"

this is well put. i dont know that it would completely eliminate discussion, but a lot of Lies of P discussion did turn into this once they added the difficulty options

bump

Dungeater posted...

yea no i know what some are asking for, i just don't know how that's functionally different from just increasing their stats themselves via grabbing some souls

for some, even that can be just as much of a challenge

i'm not arguing that the games should just be press a to win, gotta make that clear

i don't know how they should do it, even if it's clear that they're probably never gonna do it, and that's okay too since it's their game

but i'm not gonna act like if they did it somehow invalidates my experience, i just want them to add it so more people can experience the worlds because they're genuinely amazing to just look at. fromsoft knows how to do high fantasy in various genres, and they know they do it very well

it's just the bar to see it is very high

i know my friend would absolutely love to explore elden rings land, if it was about as difficult as devil may cry 5 on normal to get through.

maybe i'll suggest we just do seamless co-op mod on pc, that's another annoying thing i wish they'd actually improve. stop kicking people after a boss, or stop making us kick each other when we get to a dungeon just to rejoin after walking 5 steps ahead

That's why I don't like being called a Souls fan. I'm a From Software fan ever since the US King's Field game blew my mind. I'm not one of these (censored).

And I've never used that stupid phrase and I never will.

And I don't call animals something they aren't because these children think it's the epitome of humor. Or all the other trash "jokes" -- you know the ones.

I would NEVER play these games online just because of how horrible and childish the "fans" are.

They suck, is what I'm trying to say.

Reddit + souls fans, I can hardly think of a more annoying human archetype

pinky0926 posted...

Reddit + souls fans, I can hardly think of a more annoying human archetype

Reddit + Star Wars fans