Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 458: That's On Top Of The 20% Fentanyl Tax

(+) Yeah! (+)

I just don't think you have a lot of outrage to stand on unless you have a better alternative that could have won.

They all suck but Labour sucks less of the plausible options? OK. Great. Why do you deserve an apology?

I dunno it just sounds like you're trying to imply you know more about UK politics from people actually from there and it's annoying to read since you clearly follow it even less than I do and I never would feel comfortable discussing UK politics at any depth

literally all lopen is capable of doing is attacking strawmen huh

Grimlyn posted...

Now that someone who lives there confirms that I was indeed correct I'll start officially waiting on the Lopen apology.

https://i.imgur.com/iehcB2Y.gif

Grimlyn posted...

literally all lopen is capable of doing is attacking strawmen huh

Are you demanding an apology from a strawman?

I'm demanding an apology for people who called me hysterical for events that unfolded even more than I even said they would.

(I'll also take one from a clown who got his panties in a twist trying to continually call me wrong even when the barometer of truth they used against me just backed me up)

I'd argue you were correctly called hysterical if voting Labour was the best option.

Grimlyn posted...

just backed me up

He literally didn't

yes being correct sure is the definition of hysterical

go suck on joe biden's tits if you feel "your party" must always be defended even where they're wrong

bro wins an internet argument and thinks he'll get an apology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1BneeJTDcU

So to summarize:

Grimlyn: Even if [good thing] happens, [bad thing] will happen.
Others: No, [good thing] will prevent [bad thing], you're being hysterical.
[good thing] and [bad thing] both happen.
Grimlyn: I was right.
Lopen: No, you were wrong because [bad thing] would be worse without [good thing].

Do I have that right?

JeffreyRaze posted...

Others: No, [good thing] will prevent [bad thing], you're being hysterical.

I don't think others actually said that verbatim though. Pretty sure that's the strawman here.

the defense for Labour at the time was very much that they didn't wanna touch a hot-button issue in the midst of a general election and just wanted to play it safe til they get in where they would then pivot. they aren't actually transphobic, they just have an election to win.

turned out that nope, trans people were right and Labour really was showing us who they were

I'm British, I live in the States but all my family still lives back in the UK.

Both Labour and Conservatives are atrocious but Labour is the slightly better option (but may still be just as bad depending on who you are). You're basically picking between a right wing party that used to be central/left and a far right wing party who used to be right.

Labour only won because of how awful a job Conservatives did over a prolonged period of time. And it's extremely telling that it took until the last election for them to win given that the conservatives were just as corrupt and incompetent the previous cycle with it broadly out in display.

My Dad actually voted for the third option which you would think 'Hey, maybe a third option is be better?' but nope, it's a nationalist party so just as fucked up.

For a lot of people there are no good options.

Man, I remember when Europeans used to laugh at the US for only having two flavors of politics: far right and center right. How times change.

Shattered posted...

I'm British, I live in the States but all my family still lives back in the UK.

Both Labour and Conservatives are atrocious but Labour is the slightly better option (but may still be just as bad depending on who you are). You're basically picking between a right wing party that used to be central/left and a far right wing party who used to be right.

Labour only won because of how awful a job Conservatives did over a prolonged period of time. And it's extremely telling that it took until the last election for them to win given that the conservatives were just as corrupt and incompetent the previous cycle with it broadly out in display.

My Dad actually voted for the third option which you would think 'Hey, maybe a third option is be better?' but nope, it's a nationalist party so just as fucked up.

For a lot of people there are no good options.

Do I even dare ask about the Greens?

Lopen posted...

I don't think others actually said that verbatim though. Pretty sure that's the strawman here.

Even if it's a strawman, if it's the argument being made you not addressing it would mean you've completely misread the argument though.

I sincerely hope the rest of Europe politics isn't as fucked up as the UK. UK seems to just be the same as the US with a different lick of paint on it.

My Mum always tells me to move home because of Trump but if I had to move, I'd go the third option and use an Irish passport to live somewhere else in Europe if I was going for an easy route (because the hard route would involve moving to like Japan or Australia or something)

Labour's leaders have so little spine and principle that they essentially backstepped on their trans rights positions because they felt the public had become more transphobic. I have no doubt that modern Tories would be worse, but Labour are worse on trans rights than the Tories were back in 2018.

redrocket posted...

Do I even dare ask about the Greens?

Some great local councillors, some idiots who keep refusing new builds even on brown (useless and environmentally unimportant) land and are against nuclear power. Also lots of pro-Palestine sentiment, which will hopefully be a good thing going forwards?

I actually forgot Liberal Democrats were an option. I haven't seen their policies in a long time but they would likely be a better option than Labour or Tories. But the chance of a third party winning enough support is practically zero.

Shattered posted...

I sincerely hope the rest of Europe politics isn't as fucked up as the UK. UK seems to just be the same as the US with a different lick of paint on it.

My Mum always tells me to move home because of Trump but if I had to move, I'd go the third option and use an Irish passport to live somewhere else in Europe if I was going for an easy route (because the hard route would involve moving to like Japan or Australia or something)

A lot of the rest of Europe sucks right now, and it's very difficult to be social if you don't know the native languages. Scandinavia is good and speaks a fair bit of English but expensive. I still need to get my Polish passport but I'm considering moving there in the coming years. Cheap, I know the language and quality of life has been skyrocketing. Though Poland a lot of the rest of Europe is still more socially conservative than the UK, especially regarding race.

JeffreyRaze posted...

Even if it's a strawman, if it's the argument being made you not addressing it would mean you've completely misread the argument though.

I just don't see why there's an apology due if the option voted for was the best one. It feels like demanding vindication for something you're mostly ignorant of on a technicality.

Anyway. Whatever. I just think it's better to not talk about UK politics if you don't really know anything about it.

Grimlyn posted...

Now that someone who lives there confirms that I was indeed correct I'll start officially waiting on the Lopen apology.

Tbf I moved to Ireland a decade ago although much like it is with the US in Canada you kind of cant escape it being so close, also Sinn Fin (Irelands so-called main left opposition party) have come out and said lets follow this too which is deeply ironic given Sinn Fins history fighting Britain but anyway. I grew up in the UK, and hold both citizenships. There is a lot I want to say on this issue but it will take a long time and I havent even had dinner yet, so probably best not to rush it on such an important issue.

The very short version is that I think a lot of Americans tend to look at UK politics as a binary social liberal/conservative divide like in the US and isnt, its a multi-way divide with the split between Labour and the Tories being an economic left/economic right and working class/middle class one. But more on that later.

Lopen posted...

I just don't see why there's an apology due if the option voted for was the best one. It feels like demanding vindication for something you're mostly ignorant of on a technicality.

Anyway. Whatever. I just think it's better to not talk about UK politics if you don't really know anything about it.

...Because they said something that turned out to be correct and were attacked because of it? The other parties are completely irrelevant to this whole thing, which is why you're being called out for attacking a strawman. The question was never about which party was best, it was entirely whether or not Labour would also be bad on this issue, and Grimlyn being attacked for saying they would be bad.

JeffreyRaze posted...

The question was never about which party was best, it was entirely whether or not Labour would also be bad on this issue

I guess because that's a stupid question only an ignorant person or someone who is fiending for reasons to be outraged would care about. Politics should always be about finding your best option. If it's right vs far right on an issue you should be wanting right to win.

Like I'm not saying we shouldn't call dems out on dumb stuff but I'm also saying that someone from the UK slamming dems for something that Trump would be worse on proclaiming some sort of victory would be dumb too.

Lopen posted...

I guess because that's a stupid question only an ignorant person or someone who is fiending for reasons to be outraged would care about. Politics should always be about finding your best option. If it's right vs far right on an issue you should be wanting right to win.

Like I'm not saying we shouldn't call dems out on dumb stuff but I'm also saying that someone from the UK slamming dems for something that Trump would be worse on proclaiming some sort of victory would be dumb too.

Okay, but whether or not you think the point being made is dumb, can you at least concede that you missed it and you were arguing against a position that had not been stated?

yes trans people are just looking to be outraged

not the entirely bipartisan attack on their existence slowly removing their healthcare and accepted presence in society

Don't make it a trans issue-- this is a you issue.

don't make trans rights a trans issue lmfaooooooo

JeffreyRaze posted...

Okay, but whether or not you think the point being made is dumb, can you at least concede that you missed it and you were arguing against a position that had not been stated?

I... guess? I mean the only reason I spoke against it is because I didn't like gmun's attitude about it-- basically gave the vibe of knowing more about UK politics than the people in here from the UK who talk about UK politics and I'm honestly not 100% sure she's being accurate in what they said and isn't just creating a strawman herself. I don't give a damn if she was technically correct because the point is kinda who cares. Yeah the sky is falling sure whatever. You should still try and cling to the side that makes the sky fall less rather than fearmonger about it.

Grimlyn posted...

don't make trans rights a trans issue lmfaooooooo

It's not "trans rights"-- the correct option for trans rights won as I understand it. This is 100% about being mad because the world is burning which is a you issue not a trans issue.

that sure is a lot of posts I can't read and yet suspect I am missing nothing of value

Sorry for derailing a bit, I just hate seeing people talk past eachother. Definitely a pet peeve of mine.

You picked the wrong topic series to follow

Okay I guess Ill give this a go. First of all must be clear that when Labour is being talked about we typically mean the Labour leadership, there are many pro-trans voices within Labour including cabinet ministers and polling shows that Labour voters and members tend to be very pro-trans rights overall. There were recently leaked WhatsApp messages showing significant opposition to the ruling and government response from high ranking MPs. Which is all another reason why this turn is a foolish decision as its out of step with Labours own supporters.

Now, Labour campaigned in the election on effectively status quo (to be clear thats still not great eg maintaining puberty blocker ban) while making it easier for trans people to legally recognise their gender, so overall better than the immediately previous government although marginally. Tories and Reform wanted to change the law to effectively remove the recognition of trans people as their gender so was the better of the options despite not being good in and of itself.

However, the supreme court ruling (and more importantly, the Equalities and Human Rights Commission guidance) has basically made the status quo significantly worse and now rather than fix that with legislation Labour leadership have adopted a much more anti-trans stance after the ruling. This is appalling and not what people voted for. Which ultimately goes to the fact that actually, study after study has shown that this is not a high-ranking issue with the UK public at all (and those it is for tend to be trans or have a trans loved one as you would expect), yet it has been made a huge issue by a bigoted political and media class only to the detriment of trans people. It is a top-down problem. If the government (and perhaps more importantly, the media) changed their mind tomorrow there would almost certainly be no pushback from the public.

This also, unlike in the US, cuts across party lines on both sides of the divide. There are many on the left and right who are pro-trans and anti-trans it is not a split down party or ideological lines. Even within the parties themselves, a lot of people on the left of the Labour party for instance really dont like to be reminded that Rosie Duffield, once the main transphobic voice within Labour, was from the party left. I think the reason for this is actually more to do with broader philosophical elements of the UK political system.

Very briefly because this post is already too long, social issues are not the dividing political issue in the UK, economic status and class is. The exception is the Liberal Democrats formerly (and still called colloquially) the Liberals, who as the name implies are social liberals and very good on trans issues as a result. When Americans say liberals in the UK context they mean Labour but actually on social issues like trans rights the real liberals aka the Liberals are great, the problem is that that is not Labour! And you might then think oh so the Lib Dems are to the left of Labour then, yet no, economically Labour are well to the left of the Lib Dems! But socially, the Lib Dems are much more Liberal. The reason is that Labour are a coalition of socialists, social democrats and trade unionists that came out of working class politics and as a result are not necessarily socially liberal. Though there are many social liberals within Labour. Historically the most famous of these was a guy called Roy Jenkins (our best ever Home Secretary tbh), who actually split from Labour to form a party called the Social Democrats that would then merge with the Liberals to form the Lib Dems. Anyway this post is way too long but I hope that explains how these strange splits on social issues in the UK can happen.

I would agree that the UK's got a much stronger media issue. They are muuuuuch more focused on "the trans issue" much to the fuel provided by JKR that the media class hold up as their crown jewel.

Canadians are much like Americans on the issue - we don't wanna talk about it. We got our Fox News in the form of Rebel sounding the alarms, and then mainstream press are basically just silent. Like we had two back-to-back debates last week and the only time you'll hear "trans" is the multiple questions on the pipeline. Likewise I don't really think it came up in the US debates?? I remember Trump going on about transing criminals but IIRC that was a random tangent in a different question.

Though should be noted though Rebel isn't anywhere near the institution that Fox is, and while there is certainly a lot of Americanization in Canada, I feel like most people are very very detached. This election if you've paid attention the cons have really fumbled an absolute layup now that Trudeau's out, his resentment was basically all they had going for it and now that the option is respectful neoliberal Carney vs anti-woke PP he's really got nothing. Okay fine and Americans blowing up in our face beforehand is a major factor.

I'm very thankful to live in a country that hasn't gone nuts yet. Like I said PP does the anti-woke tirades, but he knows he can't get too detailed about it without turning people off, and how we keep having elections rally behind the ABC vote quite consistently (it's how Trudeau surged in 2015 after the NDP collapse).

Awesome post LS. Definitely appreciate that deep dive. Like I said I have only cursory knowledge of the party situation over there--mostly because I followed UK politics closely briefly during brexit circa 2021/2022 for stock market money making schemes so it's definitely appreciated to learn more about it.

Trump is even more of a doormat than Warren Harding.

Appreciate that post, LS

We have reached the "arresting judges" stop on our descent.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-hannah-dugan-arrested-fbi-allegedly-helping-undocumented/story?id=121161497

FBI arrested a Wisconsin judge for allegedly helping an undocumented immigrant "evade arrest" by ICE. Details still coming out.

George Santos sentenced to 87 months.

Wild.

What an absolute stain.

And yet somehow not the worst of the current gop

So... we had the Beer Hall Putsch four years ago.

When's the equivalent of the Reichstag Fire? Or the Night of Long Knives?

https://dailyboulder.com/ice-can-now-enter-your-home-without-a-warrant-to-find-migrants-doj-memo-says/

Thorn posted...

We have reached the "arresting judges" stop on our descent.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-hannah-dugan-arrested-fbi-allegedly-helping-undocumented/story?id=121161497

FBI arrested a Wisconsin judge for allegedly helping an undocumented immigrant "evade arrest" by ICE. Details still coming out.

Some updates as details came out:

ICE came to the courthouse and wanted to arrest the immigrant. The judge asked if they had a warrant. ICE said they did not, but had an "administrative warrant" (which isn't a warrant, it's not signed by a judge at all; seems to be a similar, if not the same, kind described in the post above) and so the judge told them to get a judicial warrant... so they arrested her.

https://bsky.app/profile/nycsouthpaw.bsky.social/post/3lnnmnmqqos24

Curious to see how judges react to this

I suppose, theoretically (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer), Wisconsins AG could use this as an excuse to sue the US on behalf of Wisconsin, seeking an injunction against ICE interfering with state officials and trespassing on state property without judicial warrants. This big upside here is that since it would be a state suing the US, it would fall under the Supreme Courts original jurisdiction, so it would make it difficult for them to dodge taking a stand one way or
the other.

If I'm following the administration's thinking here (and it's always perilous to assume there even is any thinking beyond just getting to the ends and making shit up post-facto after the damage has been done and can't be reversed) they're trying to use the Alien Enemies Act to justify how they can do all this shit without warrants and without judicial review - and therefore judges not kneeling before them and surrendering to this dictate is obstruction of justice.

Initially I was pretty pessimistic about how SCOTUS would rule on it if they ever were forced into a position to judge the AEA on its merits instead of punting on that in any way they could as they have thus far... but if they're going to start using it as part of a scheme to arrest judges maybe that makes some of the Trump appointees/Roberts hesitate on giving it a thumbs-up?

What's stopped the FBI from arresting SCOTUS?

god damn

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/virginia-giuffre-one-jeffrey-epsteins-prominent-abuse-survivors-dies-s-rcna203027